This is progress!

Gasolin

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I hope we dont go on a dismal run of form like we did after the last Paris performance.
I think the quality has always been there but we thrive when there is zero expectation and pressure.
Don’t jinx it! :)
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Jeez it is a word. I sit corrected.

Yeah we were tired. But tiredness wasn't the root problem. The root problem was that we couldn't rotate. The real question is why not. Some people blame lack of squad depth. I think it was more a coaching issue.
There is nothing wrong to keep have faith in the same XI that on form and able to turned the -9 points gaps into +2 points. It’s unfortunate that there was pandemic with 4 months break which means players who didn’t play much during the restart were lacking match fitness.
 

Bobcat

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Good post OP.

There is no doubt progress have been made in my eyes, from the demoralized bunch Ole took over, to the ones we saw on Tuesday its a massive improvement. Even if Ole left tomorrow , he has left the club in a much better state than both LvG and Jose did.

The key difference imo is that Ole has spent much better than his predecessors. Sure Maguire and AWB was expensive, but none of them are bad signings in the category of Di Maria, Schneiderlin,. Depay, Lukaku and Sanchez.

Another huge positive is that this is still fairly young team

----------------------Henderson(23)-------------------
AWB(22)----Lindelof(26)---Maguire(27)--Shaw(25)
---------------------DvB(23)-----Scott(23)----------------
----------------------------Bruno(26)--------------------------
---Greenwood(19)----Martial(24)----Rashford(22)

The average age of that particular starting XI is only 23,6 years, of course if you add DDG, Telles and Fred instead it will slightly increase, but its still a young line up with plenty of room to improve. Another positive is that we actually have some depth now thats not deadwood. Not in that line up are the likes of Tuanzebe, Pogba, Matic, Mata and Cavani.

The last and maybe biggest positive is that Ole and these players have proved again and again they can deliver in the big games. What we lack is consistency, which tends to come with age, experience and time. Where as not being able to beat the best sides, is a much harder nut to crack, which is also why i dont fancy Poch so much because his record vs the big teams is dreadful

If we in the next two windows could clear out the remaining deadwood and get another 2-3 key signings things will really start to shape up here. Let the doom mongers revel in their misery, i am more positive about the future now than i have been in a long time
 

wolvored

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I feel threads like this is months too early.

The season just recently started. Lets revisit the conversation when we are at least halfway through. One loss to Chelsea and the forum will be back where it was before this PSG win.
I agree with you. For all the good that came out of Tuesdays game, if we slip up against Chelsea an Arsenal, all the confidence will drain away.
We need momentum and unlike last season we have more strength in depth.
The commentator Tuesday said at one time, Utds bench looks the stronger, with more different options. How many times has that been said against a big team in the last few years? OK we didnt get Sancho, but we got VDB who has looked great when he plays, Telles put in a really good performance. We still have Cavani and the 2 young wingers to come in as well. Add that to Tuanzebes masterclass, which also seems like a new signing. Lets hope he can stay fit.
After Spurs I didnt know which way we were going, but Ole has grabbed the wheel steered the ship around and heading in the right direction again. Lets hope he keeps it this way.
 

Bilbo

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Great win, against all odds, we celebrate. However, this is getting proper silly now - it’s like watching Democrats vs. Republicans in terms of threads created and polarizing views. How about staying on the ground? Last week someone literally created a thread stating our possible relegation candidacy, people were bumping the Ole-out by 10-15%, but now we’re seeing obvious progress? Come on, both sides are equally daft.

We beat a much better PSG-side 18 months ago playing this way, we still struggled in the league. We beat a much weaker PSG-side without home supporters yesterday, let’s wait and see how our domestic form is after 10 or so games. Try playing Martial/Rashford in a two vs. a low block from Burnley, that’ll pan out nicely. Literally no team in the Premier League leave this much space for a better team on paper (which we were yesterday), so we cannot play 5-3-2, it’ll be 4-2-3-1 and it’s back to reality. You want Fred and McTominay in front of 11 dogs staying in their own lane, whilst our wing-backs stay high up sacrificing room for counters? Let’s see how that works against Leicester and Villa.

No Verratti or Marquinhos (pinnacles in this team after the two superstars), no Kehrer, Draxler, Bernat, Paredes, Thiago Silva’s gone, a team struck by corona and injuries. A team that lost to Lens and Marseille a few weeks ago. We literally played against Herrera, the workhorse from Everon and Danilo in the middle, none of them are starters for PSG or even Arsenal or Spurs. When needing a goal they couldn’t put on Icardi as he’s injured, they threw on an Everton-reject that wouldn’t find ocean if he jumped off a container ship. People need to calm down and breathe, winning or losing, it’s the big picture that counts - and in my opinion, we are not seeing the full potential of this very expensive squad full of huge investments. A win against an injury-ravaged team won’t change my opinion, just like a loss to Chelsea on Sunday wouldn’t do much either. But put United top two after 10-15 games scoring goals and keeping attacking patterns, then I’ll join the other side.
This is a little over the top and missing the tone of what I was hoping to achieve with this thread. All I intended to put forward here is that we are making progress. Not that we've made it, or that we are an outstanding team, or favourites to win trophies.

My point was that after almost 2 years into Ole's time here, this team & this squad of players is a much better position than what it was. Going away to last seasons finalists and winning whilst playing well could be another turning point for this group. With all of that negativity we read on here all the time there is no harm in recognising this.

Progress - not job done.
 

lysglimt

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No Bilbo - you are incorrect:

This is what progress looks like

David de Gea, Sergio Romero
Diogo Dalot, Victor Lindelof, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Matteo Darmian, Luke Shaw, Eric Bailly
Paul Pogba, Juan Mata, Marouane Fellaini, Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Fred, Nemanja Matic, Scott McTominay
Romelu Lukaku, Marcus Rashford, Anthony Martial, Alexis

David de Gea, Dean Henderson
Aaron Wan Bissaka, Luke Shaw, Victor Lindelof, Harry Maguire, Alex Tuanzebe, Brandon Williams, Eric Bailly, Alex Telles
Bruno, Paul Pogba, Fred, Scott McTominay, Juan Mata, Dan James, Donny van de Beek, Nemanja Matic, Jesse Lingard, Facundo Pellistri
Anthony Martial, Marcus Rashford, Edinson Cavani, Odeon Ighalo, Mason Greenwood

:)
 

Massive Spanner

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No Bilbo - you are incorrect:

This is what progress looks like

David de Gea, Sergio Romero
Diogo Dalot, Victor Lindelof, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Matteo Darmian, Luke Shaw, Eric Bailly
Paul Pogba, Juan Mata, Marouane Fellaini, Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Fred, Nemanja Matic, Scott McTominay
Romelu Lukaku, Marcus Rashford, Anthony Martial, Alexis

David de Gea, Dean Henderson
Aaron Wan Bissaka, Luke Shaw, Victor Lindelof, Harry Maguire, Alex Tuanzebe, Brandon Williams, Eric Bailly, Alex Telles
Bruno, Paul Pogba, Fred, Scott McTominay, Juan Mata, Dan James, Donny van de Beek, Nemanja Matic, Jesse Lingard, Facundo Pellistri
Anthony Martial, Marcus Rashford, Edinson Cavani, Odeon Ighalo, Mason Greenwood

:)
I actually forgot Lingard was still here :lol:

Can't deny from looking at that that he's done well to go from the former to the latter in a short space of time. Shame 'Arry and Dan James were such poor signings but other than that, not bad at all.
 

Bilbo

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No Bilbo - you are incorrect:

This is what progress looks like

David de Gea, Sergio Romero
Diogo Dalot, Victor Lindelof, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Matteo Darmian, Luke Shaw, Eric Bailly
Paul Pogba, Juan Mata, Marouane Fellaini, Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Fred, Nemanja Matic, Scott McTominay
Romelu Lukaku, Marcus Rashford, Anthony Martial, Alexis

David de Gea, Dean Henderson
Aaron Wan Bissaka, Luke Shaw, Victor Lindelof, Harry Maguire, Alex Tuanzebe, Brandon Williams, Eric Bailly, Alex Telles
Bruno, Paul Pogba, Fred, Scott McTominay, Juan Mata, Dan James, Donny van de Beek, Nemanja Matic, Jesse Lingard, Facundo Pellistri
Anthony Martial, Marcus Rashford, Edinson Cavani, Odeon Ighalo, Mason Greenwood

:)
One of the things that impresses me about these recent summer signings is that they all give us something different from a tactical viewpoint

Telles wasn't signed simply to give us depth at left-back. He has a different skillset to Shaw, and if the Paris match is anything to go by, he really opens up that option of a back 3/5 in a way that we didn't have before

Cavani is very different to our other forwards. A much more robust presence in attack. Stronger physically & better in the air, but still with that willingness to get about the pitch. He allows us to do something different - all of course assuming that he is still close to the player he once was

VdB also. While we had 5 other first team midfielders already, and he is being integrated into the team slower than some thought, he has a little bit of all that is good about our existing group. It gives us both depth and also flexibility in the way we want our midfield to set-up.

These are signings that don't get made by a manager that is married to a particular formation. These are signings made by a manager that wants to have tactical options. Looking at this squad now there are very few scenarios where we might want to play a certain way but don't have the right player for that job. We are all speculating about what the team & formation might look like against Chelsea on Saturday, because there are so many options, and if we don't know then Lampard doesn't know either.

Also if we look at the players that are removed from your first list:

Dalot, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Darmian
Fellaini, Pereira
Lukaku, Sanchez

Its only really Smalling that had any of our fans feeling conflicted about his worth to the squad. This is a mixture of players past their best, or who didn't want to be here, or who were never good enough in the first place.

Not to mention that:

  • our squad now contains 7 academy graduates (8 incl Pogba) versus only 3 (4 incl Pogba) before
  • average age has reduced significantly
  • wage bill will also be in a better place - I don't have the figures to back this up but it looking at incomings/outgoings it looks very likely

Its progress
 

devil99

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When was the last time we failed to score? I know football is not just about goals, but I dreaded the days when we failed to score under LVG and Mourinho. This is a progress to me.
 

Untd55

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It was a great win, but you have to remember that their entire first-team midfield was out. I think this PSG side was quite a bit weaker than the one we played in 18/19, so you have to take that into account. Their midfield was really average on Tuesday, so you have to bear this in mind when seeing if there is any progress.

Their defence was also a lot weaker without Silva and with Kehrer out.

Would we have had such a hold on the game if Paredes, Marquinhos, and Verrati were playing? I doubt it.
 

dabeast

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It was a great win, but you have to remember that their entire first-team midfield was out. I think this PSG side was quite a bit weaker than the one we played in 18/19, so you have to take that into account. Their midfield was really average on Tuesday, so you have to bear this in mind when seeing if there is any progress.

Their defence was also a lot weaker without Silva and with Kehrer out.

Would we have had such a hold on the game if Paredes, Marquinhos, and Verrati were playing? I doubt it.
Yes, we need to be careful. Also, they were clearly suffering because they had no striker starting because Icardi was injured too (Kean is not up to this level yet).
 

romufc

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It was a great win, but you have to remember that their entire first-team midfield was out. I think this PSG side was quite a bit weaker than the one we played in 18/19, so you have to take that into account. Their midfield was really average on Tuesday, so you have to bear this in mind when seeing if there is any progress.

Their defence was also a lot weaker without Silva and with Kehrer out.

Would we have had such a hold on the game if Paredes, Marquinhos, and Verrati were playing? I doubt it.
Well we can keep doing this, down playing our results. Then when we lose a game its all hell breaks lose.
Beat Newcastle - Its only Newcastle but when we lost to Palace and Brighton, it was different energy.

Well, they didnt have Verrati in the final of the CL either. Herrera started in the CL final.

They also had their 2 new signings play, Danilo and Florenzi, are we going to say we didnt have our entire defence out? Maguire, Bailly etc didnt play.

Its like saying would we have won more convincingly if Pogba and Donny started? No because we needed the legs in midfield which is why they went with 3 workhorses as well.
 

El Zoido

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It was a great win, but you have to remember that their entire first-team midfield was out. I think this PSG side was quite a bit weaker than the one we played in 18/19, so you have to take that into account. Their midfield was really average on Tuesday, so you have to bear this in mind when seeing if there is any progress.

Their defence was also a lot weaker without Silva and with Kehrer out.

Would we have had such a hold on the game if Paredes, Marquinhos, and Verrati were playing? I doubt it.
We were missing players too. It’s the same old story with United, if we have 6 first team players out then lose to Man City, it’s “no excuse”. Yet if Man City have only one player out and we win, people say we only won because they were weakened. It’s like some United fans just want us to fail and will create any excuse to downplay a good result. They have two of the biggest and best superstars in world football yet they lost because Verratti was out. Something tells me that if Bruno was injured and we lost, nobody would accept that as an excuse.
 

lysglimt

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It was a great win, but you have to remember that their entire first-team midfield was out. I think this PSG side was quite a bit weaker than the one we played in 18/19, so you have to take that into account. Their midfield was really average on Tuesday, so you have to bear this in mind when seeing if there is any progress.

Their defence was also a lot weaker without Silva and with Kehrer out.

Would we have had such a hold on the game if Paredes, Marquinhos, and Verrati were playing? I doubt it.
Well - they had Navas in goal who made several great saves - 2 years ago they had Buffon who handed us one goal.

In addition - Neymar didnt play 2 years ago, so in total I don't think it was a much weaker side
 

Vaibhav Raj

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I never start threads on here, but feck it, it needs to be said.

THIS is what progress looks like.
Progress is finally seeing a manager who realises that we can win a big game with positive and attacking subs. It was nice change to see a Manchester United manager subbing off a defender and bringing on Paul Pogba when score is 1-1 in the first group stage match in the kind of group where others managers, especially our previous one, would have loved to settle for a draw and dub it a defensive masterclass for themselves and eventually then would have gone on to toil and struggle in next games.
 

glazed

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There is nothing wrong to keep have faith in the same XI that on form and able to turned the -9 points gaps into +2 points. It’s unfortunate that there was pandemic with 4 months break which means players who didn’t play much during the restart were lacking match fitness.
That is one explanation. Another is that our tactical coaching is very poor, leaving players to work things out intuitively on the pitch. which means there is a dramatic drop in quality for new players coming into the team. And conversely it means players who lose form stay in the team when they shouldn't be there. That's my explanation, but you can take your pick.
 

Untd55

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Well we can keep doing this, down playing our results. Then when we lose a game its all hell breaks lose.
Beat Newcastle - Its only Newcastle but when we lost to Palace and Brighton, it was different energy.

Well, they didnt have Verrati in the final of the CL either. Herrera started in the CL final.

They also had their 2 new signings play, Danilo and Florenzi, are we going to say we didnt have our entire defence out? Maguire, Bailly etc didnt play.

Its like saying would we have won more convincingly if Pogba and Donny started? No because we needed the legs in midfield which is why they went with 3 workhorses as well.
We were missing players too. It’s the same old story with United, if we have 6 first team players out then lose to Man City, it’s “no excuse”. Yet if Man City have only one player out and we win, people say we only won because they were weakened. It’s like some United fans just want us to fail and will create any excuse to downplay a good result. They have two of the biggest and best superstars in world football yet they lost because Verratti was out. Something tells me that if Bruno was injured and we lost, nobody would accept that as an excuse.
Well - they had Navas in goal who made several great saves - 2 years ago they had Buffon who handed us one goal.

In addition - Neymar didnt play 2 years ago, so in total I don't think it was a much weaker side
This isn't a playing down exercise, but when people are claiming that there is progress because we had more of a hold than in a game two seasons ago, then you have to compare the teams that were fielded.

PSG 2018/19: Buffon, Silva, Kimpembe, Kehrer, Alves, Marquinhos, Verrati, Bernat, Draxler, Mbappe, Di Maria

PSG 2020/21: Navas, Florenzi, Diallo, Kimpembe, Kurzawa, Herrera, Pereira, Gueye, Neymar, Mbappe, Di Maria

There is no doubt that the defence and midfield of PSG were a lot weaker than the team fielded in 18/19. That is why it is hard to judge if there was progress or whether more possession was ceded to us because their midfield was a lot weaker. It was a great performance, but you have to compare the opposition teams also if you are going to judge progress like that.

Do you think the midfield and defence of PSG were worse on Tuesday than they were in 18/19?
 
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UNITED ACADEMY

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That is one explanation. Another is that our tactical coaching is very poor, leaving players to work things out intuitively on the pitch. which means there is a dramatic drop in quality for new players coming into the team. And conversely it means players who lose form stay in the team when they shouldn't be there. That's my explanation, but you can take your pick.
Your explanation doesn’t match up with the fact that we have won our games with players that are not just with the same XI such as James, Fred & McTominay last season. How did we won with those three? Surely because of our tactical coaching.
 

tomaldinho1

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5 games in. L (Palace), W (Brighton), L (Spurs), W (Newcastle), W (PSG). Are PSG some kind of magical barometer of progress? No. Was it a great one off team performance? So far, yes. Progress isn't having a shoddy run and then calling the first good win against a good team progress, it's about seeing the things you are lauding week in week out. I am hopeful this is the start of us playing with this style (it suits our players and is our best chance for staying top 4 and going far in cups) but it is not necessary to create these threads after every win or loss.

This reminded me of the City game at OT last year; we were up for it from the off and played well as a team against a top attacking side. Now we need to see the form from Tues maintained over a series of games.
 

romufc

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This isn't a playing down exercise, but when people are claiming that there is progress because we had more of a hold than in a game two seasons ago, then you have to compare the teams that were fielded.

PSG 2018/19: Buffon, Silva, Kimpembe, Kehrer, Alves, Marquinhos, Verrati, Bernat, Draxler, Mbappe, Di Maria

PSG 2020/21: Navas, Florenzi, Diallo, Kimpembe, Kurzawa, Herrera, Pereira, Gueye, Neymar, Mbappe, Di Maria

There is no doubt that the defence and midfield of PSG were a lot weaker than the team fielded in 18/19. That is why it is hard to judge if there was progress or whether more possession was ceded to us because their midfield was a lot weaker. It was a great performance, but you have to compare the opposition teams also if you are going to judge progress like that.
I dont get why comparing line ups will help because it is all opinion. Buffon, Alves are ageing personnel.. Bernat, Kehrer, Draxler are not even that good. Marqhuinhos and Draxler were on the bench so they were not selected to play.

Neymar didnt play that game and played this one which makes PSG's attacking line up more potent. This is a PSG team that got to the CL final not long ago.

The facts are clear. We had the better of the game at a stadium that PSG have not lost a home group game in years.

It does not matter how much you want to downplay this, putting a dominant performance away from home in the CL is no easy task, especially a team that many thought will go to PSG and get smashed. I don't think many gave United a chance to get a result.

The bottom line is they still have one of the best attacks in Europe.
 

Bilbo

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Well we can keep doing this, down playing our results. Then when we lose a game its all hell breaks lose.
Beat Newcastle - Its only Newcastle but when we lost to Palace and Brighton, it was different energy.

Well, they didnt have Verrati in the final of the CL either. Herrera started in the CL final.

They also had their 2 new signings play, Danilo and Florenzi, are we going to say we didnt have our entire defence out? Maguire, Bailly etc didnt play.

Its like saying would we have won more convincingly if Pogba and Donny started? No because we needed the legs in midfield which is why they went with 3 workhorses as well.
Its an ongoing trait on here to downplay our victories yet fail to look at any of the circumstances involved when we lose
 

Rojofiam

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Let's see how Ole compares to our post-Ferguson managers in a few areas:

  • Arguably been playing the best style of football under him

  • Feel like we've done well vs top teams with both LVG and Mourinho, but we've done exceptionally well in big games last season: vs PSG, Chelsea, Tottenham and City.

  • He's by far the best man-manager out of the 4

  • Revitalised Fred, Martial and Shaw (to me they're the 3 standout ones in this area, Martial especially became a great striker after struggling under José)
Rashford has also had his career-best season in 19/20 and matured into a top player, though I'm pretty sure that would've happened under any manager

  • Gets rid of players at the perfect time IMO (Herrera, Fellaini, Young, A.Pereira) and gets rid of deadwood instead of so many players overstaying their welcome for years...(Darmian, Sánchez, Lukaku)
Rojo, Jones and Lingard would've been almost certainly sold as well, but it's obviously difficult to get suitors with the wages we unfortunately pay these players. That's all down to the club's incompetence anyway.

  • We finally have a manager that gets most / almost all of his signings right, rather than just a few of them.
Maguire and Wan-Bissaka get a lot of flak but they both improved our defence significantly.

James was always gonna be considered a gamble for peanuts and he even started really well. He's not a lost cause anyway in my opinion, could do a job for us on the left side as a squad player. Not to mention that we can easily recoup the fee for him if he's sold.

Ighalo has probably done as well as expected and he's basically an unimporant signing.

Fernandes: No need to say anything.

The jury is still out for the 5 players we've signed this summer, but van de Beek and Telles both started well.



How is this NOT progress? Some people forget how underwhelming the previous 3 managers were.
 

glazed

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Your explanation doesn’t match up with the fact that we have won our games with players that are not just with the same XI such as James, Fred & McTominay last season. How did we won with those three? Surely because of our tactical coaching.
Well we won lots of games because we have loads of good players and we are relatively better than most teams in the league. The fact that we have won some games isn't really an 'Ole in' argument per se. Nor is losing some games an 'Ole out' argument on its own

The big picture narrative is this. Ole came in and won loads of games on a big run. Then he lost loads of games on an equally poor run. Then he had another big winning run. Then it went bad again (but he still managed to just hang on to third place) culminating in Spurs. The jury is out on whether we are now entering a new up phase.

What accounts for these strange extremes? Well, he doesn't rotate much so tiredness is certainly a factor. But look at what is going wrong during the bad games and you have a better answer. As soon as Plan A stops working, the players have no clue what to do instead. And Plan A is usually embarrassingly simple. In the first run of wins it was hit them on the break. In the second run, it was give the ball to Bruno. All of this was easily found out and neutralised by opposing coaches after a few months.

Not sure where the next run is coming from - maybe pack the midfield. But whatever it is it will also have a limited shelf life. But to have something more sophisticated requires the kind of heavy coaching that Ole and co aren't really in to. And without that explicit tactical structure he won't be able to rotate effectively and we will get tired sooner than other teams. It's a cycle.
 

CG1010

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No Bilbo - you are incorrect:

This is what progress looks like

David de Gea, Sergio Romero
Diogo Dalot, Victor Lindelof, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling, Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Matteo Darmian, Luke Shaw, Eric Bailly
Paul Pogba, Juan Mata, Marouane Fellaini, Jesse Lingard, Andreas Pereira, Fred, Nemanja Matic, Scott McTominay
Romelu Lukaku, Marcus Rashford, Anthony Martial, Alexis

David de Gea, Dean Henderson
Aaron Wan Bissaka, Luke Shaw, Victor Lindelof, Harry Maguire, Alex Tuanzebe, Brandon Williams, Eric Bailly, Alex Telles
Bruno, Paul Pogba, Fred, Scott McTominay, Juan Mata, Dan James, Donny van de Beek, Nemanja Matic, Jesse Lingard, Facundo Pellistri
Anthony Martial, Marcus Rashford, Edinson Cavani, Odeon Ighalo, Mason Greenwood

:)
So, players who are out:
  • Phil Jones (*)
  • Chris Smalling
  • Ashley Young
  • Antonio Valencia
  • Matteo Darmian
  • Diogo Dalot
  • Marcus Rojo (*)
  • Marouane Fellaini
  • Andreas Pereira
  • Romelu Lukaku
  • Alexis
  • Romero (*)
(* not sold but not in the squad so basically out)

Players who are in:
  • Henderson
  • Aaron Wan Bissaka
  • Harry Maguire
  • Alex Tunazebe
  • Brandon Williams
  • Alex Telles
  • Bruno Fernandez
  • Dan James
  • Van De Beek
  • Facundo Pellistri
  • Edinson Cavani
  • Odeon Ighalo
  • Mason Greenwood
12 out and 13 in (out of which 4 are academy promotions). Certainly is progress. Of course the shining jewel out of this is Bruno's signing.
 

glazed

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12 out and 13 in (out of which 4 are academy promotions). Certainly is progress. Of course the shining jewel out of this is Bruno's signing.
Turnover is not necessarily progress. I think final league position is a better guide.
 

Jezpeza

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That is one explanation. Another is that our tactical coaching is very poor, leaving players to work things out intuitively on the pitch. which means there is a dramatic drop in quality for new players coming into the team. And conversely it means players who lose form stay in the team when they shouldn't be there. That's my explanation, but you can take your pick.
whats interesting about the talk about tactics is that i read an interview by an ex united player from the fergie era who said that training was a laugh under fergie. Apparantly as default all they did was drill the back four, set pieces and shooting etc and play passing games with more attackers vs less defenders to encourage players to have to move off the ball to create and find space and not linger on the ball. Be creative essentially. Apparantly even lesser players had learned to do this on the training ground and fitted in.

and then apparantly Moyes, LVG came in with these hours long tactical drills playing balls diagonally up through the thirds etc and a focus on passing for the sake of it and sticking to shape even when attacking and killed it.

the biggest thing i notice when i watch classic man utd games is the off the ball movement. Our guys now are statues sometimes, all marked and stood still. Thats probably why we are so shit at breaking teams down because we are easy to defend against.

Shape off the ball is very important tactically but i genuinely dont know whats more important going forward - set tactics or just a way of handling the ball to keep creating oppurtunities. I know liverpool like the forwards to come inside, full backs to push up and the anchorman to drop into a back 3 and play a high press, but the tactic has become so readable that all Villa did was twat it long for a speedy centre forward and dismantled them.
 

glazed

Full Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,577
whats interesting about the talk about tactics is that i read an interview by an ex united player from the fergie era who said that training was a laugh under fergie. Apparantly as default all they did was drill the back four, set pieces and shooting etc and play passing games with more attackers vs less defenders to encourage players to have to move off the ball to create and find space and not linger on the ball.
.....

I know liverpool like the forwards to come inside, full backs to push up and the anchorman to drop into a back 3 and play a high press, but the tactic has become so readable that all Villa did was twat it long for a speedy centre forward and dismantled them.
I think there were distinct SAF eras - and he wasn't really the coach for much of his reign. Meulensteen in particular was a very sophisticated tactical coach iirc

Moyes is a tactical coach - just not a very good one. Van Gaal was well past his sell by date, as was Jose to a lesser extent.

Yeah I noticed that about Liverpool too. I actually think they would have been found out this season even before VvD got injured. It's a very open league this season.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
7,189
Its an ongoing trait on here to downplay our victories yet fail to look at any of the circumstances involved when we lose
Literally had a poster tell me Ole should have known about Tuanzebe's injury status, criticising Ole for getting Maguire who played every game and said we should have signed Konate who was injured most of last season.

This is where our fan base is at.

I am not saying Maguire is the best CB but at least he stayed fit compared to the list of names people keep coming out with.

This is it, they are so far Ole out, nothing else matters.
 

CG1010

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
2,792
Turnover is not necessarily progress. I think final league position is a better guide.
I didn't mean that either.. just if you look at the list, there are some undeniable upgrades over what we have let go. Which indicates progress
 

glazed

Full Member
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Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,577
I didn't mean that either.. just if you look at the list, there are some undeniable upgrades over what we have let go. Which indicates progress
Well the proof of the pudding and all that. My view is that we will keep going through this cycle of good and bad runs but the good ones will get shorter and shorter.
 

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
52,483
Location
Krakow
We pick up a lot of points in the big games but we actually went toe to toe with PSG tonight which is something we've not done anough against big teams in recent years. Apart from about 10 minutes in the second half we took the game to PSG.
We've had some dominant performances against City last season too. Both our league wins against them were very convincing. Also we spanked Chelsea 3 times last season too.
 

RedSky

likes to kick 10-year-olds
Scout
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
66,847
Location
Hereford FC (Soccermanager)
Are we making progress? Good question.
Year Form (All Comps)​
Games​
W​
D​
L​
CS​
GF​
GA​
GD​
2020​
39​
24​
7​
8​
20​
81​
37​
44​
2019​
55​
28​
12​
15​
16​
83​
59​
24​
2018​
52​
30​
8​
14​
18​
88​
54​
34​

Already more clean sheets than 2018 and 2019. Unless we have a massive goal slump in the two remaining months we'll be scoring more goals and our defense looks better.
Year Form (All Comps)​
Clean Sheet %​
Goal Per Game​
Conceded Per Game​
2020​
51%​
2.1​
0.9​
2019​
29%​
1.5​
1.1​
2018​
35%​
1.7​
1.0​
As you can see from this table, more goals, less goals conceded and significantly more clean sheets. Improvement.
Year Form (All Comps)Win %Draw %Loss %
202062%18%21%
201951%22%27%
201858%15%2%7

2020 with best stats across the board here. A massive jump in win percentage from last year. Now, a lot can change in the next two months granted. But so far, the signs point to a clear improvement across the board. It took a little time for our players to adjust after last summers window but our 2020 form has been superb.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
3,810
One thing I've noticed is that people have now recognised our players have different skillsets instead of expecting them to play like what they are not. For example people saying Fred can't be in the starting 11 just because he's not springing in passes like Pogba or people expecting Mctominay to be like Matic.
 

RedSky

likes to kick 10-year-olds
Scout
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
66,847
Location
Hereford FC (Soccermanager)
Last 7 years data:
Year Form (All Comps)​
Games​
W​
D​
L​
CS​
GF​
GA​
GD​
2020​
39​
24​
7​
8​
20​
81​
37​
44​
2019​
55​
28​
12​
15​
16​
83​
59​
24​
2018​
52​
30​
8​
14​
18​
88​
54​
34​
2017​
66​
39​
17​
10​
34​
117​
44​
73​
2016​
59​
36​
11​
12​
20​
99​
56​
43​
2015​
53​
26​
13​
14​
23​
77​
45​
32​
2014​
46​
20​
10​
16​
15​
74​
55​
19​

Things are good right now guys. We can still improve but it's certainly been one of the best calendar years since Sir Alex. Just a pity we couldn't get a trophy last season, but there's clear signs the club is waking up again.
 

ReddBalls

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
822
Well the proof of the pudding and all that. My view is that we will keep going through this cycle of good and bad runs but the good ones will get shorter and shorter.
Why? History shows the opposite.
 

AltiUn

likes playing with swords after fantasies
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
15,199
So, players who are out:
  • Phil Jones (*)
  • Chris Smalling
  • Ashley Young
  • Antonio Valencia
  • Matteo Darmian
  • Diogo Dalot
  • Marcus Rojo (*)
  • Marouane Fellaini
  • Andreas Pereira
  • Romelu Lukaku
  • Alexis
  • Romero (*)
(* not sold but not in the squad so basically out)

Players who are in:
  • Henderson
  • Aaron Wan Bissaka
  • Harry Maguire
  • Alex Tunazebe
  • Brandon Williams
  • Alex Telles
  • Bruno Fernandez
  • Dan James
  • Van De Beek
  • Facundo Pellistri
  • Edinson Cavani
  • Odeon Ighalo
  • Mason Greenwood
12 out and 13 in (out of which 4 are academy promotions). Certainly is progress. Of course the shining jewel out of this is Bruno's signing.
Is honestly great to see how far the squad has come. Some of those we've now managed to let go hung around like a bad smell for far too long.