This is progress!

Paul_Scholes18

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We are not playing better football though and we have not won anything yet.
Not seeing this massive amount of progress apart from being slightly better against top teams.
Although slightly worse against weaker sides.
 

R77

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Margins are super fine. One call from the ref or one insane save that does or doesn't happen and you're looking at a very different game. I think we've been lucky and unlucky in equal measure, which along with individual errors and abberations has sometimes obscured the fact that there's definitely something coming together.

Brief wobbles in faith around Burnley and 1-6 aside, I remain convinced we're on the right track. Even if Solskjaer fails, we're being set up for years to come. The complete opposite of the last three managers. People laugh at the romantic notion of the 'United way' and all that, but exciting attacking football and a crop of academy players is an ideal and they're giving it a good go and growing something. It feels more like an ideal United side than at any other point in the best part of a decade, even if it's not quite there.

In the context of post-Ferguson Man United, and considering the reptile owners, we're being fixed up quite nicely. How successful it is remains to be seen but I'm enjoying the journey again.
 

Bilbo

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Margins are super fine. One call from the ref or one insane save that does or doesn't happen and you're looking at a very different game. I think we've been lucky and unlucky in equal measure, which along with individual errors and abberations has sometimes obscured the fact that there's definitely something coming together.

Brief wobbles in faith around Burnley and 1-6 aside, I remain convinced we're on the right track. Even if Solskjaer fails, we're being set up for years to come. The complete opposite of the last three managers. People laugh at the romantic notion of the 'United way' and all that, but exciting attacking football and a crop of academy players is an ideal and they're giving it a good go and growing something. It feels more like an ideal United side than at any other point in the best part of a decade, even if it's not quite there.

In the context of post-Ferguson Man United, and considering the reptile owners, we're being fixed up quite nicely. How successful it is remains to be seen but I'm enjoying the journey again.
Good post. Completely agree
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Well we won lots of games because we have loads of good players and we are relatively better than most teams in the league. The fact that we have won some games isn't really an 'Ole in' argument per se. Nor is losing some games an 'Ole out' argument on its own

The big picture narrative is this. Ole came in and won loads of games on a big run. Then he lost loads of games on an equally poor run. Then he had another big winning run. Then it went bad again (but he still managed to just hang on to third place) culminating in Spurs. The jury is out on whether we are now entering a new up phase.

What accounts for these strange extremes? Well, he doesn't rotate much so tiredness is certainly a factor. But look at what is going wrong during the bad games and you have a better answer. As soon as Plan A stops working, the players have no clue what to do instead. And Plan A is usually embarrassingly simple. In the first run of wins it was hit them on the break. In the second run, it was give the ball to Bruno. All of this was easily found out and neutralised by opposing coaches after a few months.

Not sure where the next run is coming from - maybe pack the midfield. But whatever it is it will also have a limited shelf life. But to have something more sophisticated requires the kind of heavy coaching that Ole and co aren't really in to. And without that explicit tactical structure he won't be able to rotate effectively and we will get tired sooner than other teams. It's a cycle.
I'm sorry but I don't see the logic here because you are ignoring the context of those bad and good runs.

When we had bad runs last season, it wasn't because Ole is lacking another plan when Plan A stops working or Ole's poor man management managing his players.

We struggled last season due to lack of creativity. Pogba was injured most of the season while Mata was ageing result in his quality declined and couldn't be overplayed. As soon as Pogba got injured, we started hitting bad patch of form & being inconsistent. This is very common, if you want to score goals then you need to create chance and to create chance you need creative players. No matter what the plan or the tactic is, a team needs creative players in order to be consistent to win a match.

The bad run of the Spurs & Palace game earlier this season was caused from the lack of match fitness. Lot of teams who didn't have enough pre-season due to last season Semi Final or Final CL & Europa League have been struggling earlier too not just United. PSG lost twice earlier this season. City also suffered the same. Wolves also suffered the same. Even Bayern lost 4-1 to Hoffenheim.

Ole won his last game against PSG due to his tactical plan. He had Plan A & B in that game. When the score was still 1-1, Ole brought on Pogba and switched the formation to 442 diamond and we won the game, that shows you he has different type of plan not just about giving the ball to Bruno. Signed Cavani, Telles & Donny is also part of improvement to improve the deadwood, this allows Ole to rotate his players because we improve our depth squad.
 

CG1010

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Well the proof of the pudding and all that. My view is that we will keep going through this cycle of good and bad runs but the good ones will get shorter and shorter.
Let's hope you are wrong then :D but my prediction isn't the same. I think we have more dependable players than before and somewhat better bench strength than last season. We will see up and downs but with overall improved results.
 

romufc

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I'm sorry but I don't see the logic here because you are ignoring the context of those bad and good runs.

When we had bad runs last season, it wasn't because Ole is lacking another plan when Plan A stops working or Ole's poor man management managing his players.

We struggled last season due to lack of creativity. Pogba was injured most of the season while Mata was ageing result in his quality declined and couldn't be overplayed. As soon as Pogba got injured, we started hitting bad patch of form & being inconsistent. This is very common, if you want to score goals then you need to create chance and to create chance you need creative players. No matter what the plan or the tactic is, a team needs creative players in order to be consistent to win a match.

The bad run of the Spurs & Palace game earlier this season was caused from the lack of match fitness. Lot of teams who didn't have enough pre-season due to last season Semi Final or Final CL & Europa League have been struggling earlier too not just United. PSG lost twice earlier this season. City also suffered the same. Wolves also suffered the same. Even Bayern lost 4-1 to Hoffenheim.

Ole won his last game against PSG due to his tactical plan. He had Plan A & B in that game. When the score was still 1-1, Ole brought on Pogba and switched the formation to 442 diamond and we won the game, that shows you he has different type of plan not just about giving the ball to Bruno. Signed Cavani, Telles & Donny is also part of improvement to improve the deadwood, this allows Ole to rotate his players because we improve our depth squad.
Exactly this.

PSG showed that even they are not ready in terms of fitness. Considering the teams around us have had 3/4 pre season games. Look at Spurs how they started against Everton, as soon as they got games under their belt, they looked sharp.

The last paragraph is good, if the manager's name was Pochettino then United fans would be saying, what a tactical masterclass, we even adapted in game to change formation and win the game. Instead because our manager is Ole, fans will say, "why didnt he start Pogba, Donny", or "good players play well together"

You cannot win with some of fans.
 

RedSky

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You keep pedalling this pessimistic view of everything despite the data telling us otherwise.
Talking about data, here's an interesting one... again this is calendar year 2020.

I can't work out whats more incredible, that Tottenham have only managed 6 clean sheets or that Chelsea have somehow conceded 6 more than Tottenham?

Also impressive from Arsenal, they look like a team heading in the right direction.

Club​
Games (All Comps)​
W​
D​
L​
CS​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Manchester City​
36​
26​
2​
8​
15​
84​
32​
52​
Manchester United​
39​
24​
7​
8​
20​
81​
37​
44​
Arsenal​
34​
22​
5​
7​
14​
54​
30​
24​
Liverpool​
33​
20​
3​
10​
14​
55​
34​
21​
Tottenham​
34​
16​
9​
9​
6​
61​
41​
20​
Chelsea​
34​
17​
7​
10​
11​
66​
47​
19​
 

glazed

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Messages
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That's just not true though is it?
Which bit?
It seems self evident that he can't pull a Bruno again unless he gets lucky with a signing.

And it seems reasonable to think there will be diminishing returns to changing his tactics if he isn't a very accomplished tactician (which is an opinion, not true or false)
 

glazed

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I'm sorry but I don't see the logic here because you are ignoring the context of those bad and good runs.
I mean you are welcome to your opinion on the cause of the good and bad runs. Where you see circumstances, I see structural failings.
 

RedSky

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Which bit?
It seems self evident that he can't pull a Bruno again unless he gets lucky with a signing.

And it seems reasonable to think there will be diminishing returns to changing his tactics if he isn't a very accomplished tactician (which is an opinion, not true or false)
I don't think Ole is getting easier to find out. We've been extremely consistent in 2020. I'd say it's the opposite, teams are struggling to beat us. In the last 25 games we've won 18. We can all get a bit pissy about the performances and demand the team controls the game more, or score more goals (we're doing that fine). But results have been excellent and consistent for months, close to a year.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I mean you are welcome to your opinion on the cause of the good and bad runs. Where you see circumstances, I see structural failings.
Are you really telling me that my counter of your argument was just mere of opinion? Opinion is something that lacks of evidence to back it up and if you think that way, I expect you to show it by making counter argument on them. It's more likely that you are just stating your own opinion but refuse to accept the actual reality.
 

roonster09

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I don't think Ole is getting easier to find out. We've been extremely consistent in 2020. I'd say it's the opposite, teams are struggling to beat us. In the last 25 games we've won 18. We can all get a bit pissy about the performances and demand the team controls the game more, or score more goals (we're doing that fine). But results have been excellent and consistent for months, close to a year.
I don't rate Ole as highly as you and others ( I will still back him all the time) but I don't get this "Yeah because of Bruno" excuse used against Ole. I never saw these excuses made for any manager, I mean there was a clear weakness in the 11, Ole signed player to plug that gap and we went on a winning run. If anything he should be getting credit for that but instead few use it against him.
 

shamans

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Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
Happy for the win and for the team and for all but these exact same threads were making the rounds during Mourinho and our second place finish. Europa league was progress, second place was progress top four is progress bla bla

Progress doesn't mean much. We need results. I'm happy because we are producing results!

I woudln't be happy if we "held our own" against psg and lost.
 

romufc

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I don't rate Ole as highly as you and others ( I will still back him all the time) but I don't get this "Yeah because of Bruno" excuse used against Ole. I never saw these excuses made for any manager, I mean there was a clear weakness in the 11, Ole signed player to plug that gap and we went on a winning run. If anything he should be getting credit for that but instead few use it against him.
This is the issue. There is nothing wrong with saying you are Ole in or out. However; I don't get why some fans wont credit him when he does well, instead use every excuse in the book to discredit the manager.
 

roonster09

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This is the issue. There is nothing wrong with saying you are Ole in or out. However; I don't get why some fans wont credit him when he does well, instead use every excuse in the book to discredit the manager.
Exactly. I remember the arguments that the initial results was honeymoon period and when he couldn't turn the shit form in 18-19 season, people went this "this is his true level, coaching takes time and whatever he has implemented shows now".

Then when we had poor first half of the season and he turned it around, it was all Bruno. There is no middle ground, just pick a side and make the argument to suit that narrative no matter what.
 

romufc

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Exactly. I remember the arguments that the initial results was honeymoon period and when he couldn't turn the shit form in 18-19 season, people went this "this is his true level, coaching takes time and whatever he has implemented shows now".

Then when we had poor first half of the season and he turned it around, it was all Bruno. There is no middle ground, just pick a side and make the argument to suit that narrative no matter what.
Surely we should be supporting the team and manager? Criticise when we are not where we should be, question his tactics against Spurs, Palace, Brighton - All warranted.

Then when we beat Newcastle, they will say its only Newcastle.

I guarantee, every Ole out was hoping for a pounding against PSG and some were expecting it, then when we win why do those fans need to say, this is what Ole does, gets results against big teams?

Yet when Brighton out played us, the comments were a better team like PSG will have a field day. Well which is it?

I actually think the PSG performance was one of the best under Ole.
 

roonster09

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Surely we should be supporting the team and manager? Criticise when we are not where we should be, question his tactics against Spurs, Palace, Brighton - All warranted.

Then when we beat Newcastle, they will say its only Newcastle.

I guarantee, every Ole out was hoping for a pounding against PSG and some were expecting it, then when we win why do those fans need to say, this is what Ole does, gets results against big teams?

Yet when Brighton out played us, the comments were a better team like PSG will have a field day. Well which is it?

I actually think the PSG performance was one of the best under Ole.
Yeah, PSG performance was impressive. We created good number of chances and as a team we did really well. I hope we build on this now.
 

cptkeane1993

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Exactly this.

PSG showed that even they are not ready in terms of fitness. Considering the teams around us have had 3/4 pre season games. Look at Spurs how they started against Everton, as soon as they got games under their belt, they looked sharp.

The last paragraph is good, if the manager's name was Pochettino then United fans would be saying, what a tactical masterclass, we even adapted in game to change formation and win the game. Instead because our manager is Ole, fans will say, "why didnt he start Pogba, Donny", or "good players play well together"

You cannot win with some of fans.
Agreed!

I think some folks simply cannot see the work Solksjaer is doing possibly due to innate prejudices (not intentional). Unfortunately.

If he was German, Italian or Argentinian say, i.e. from superior footballing nations with many WC wins, then his progress so far would have been seen as brilliant and the big wins against City, Chelsea, PSG as tactical masterclasses. And by now, his football would've been labelled Oleball or something. But no, he is Norwegian, which is not as big a football nation relatively, so folks struggle to wrap the head around the possibility of him being potentially quite good - I mean when has Norway produced an elite / world-class football coach is perhaps the driver of that thought process. Not even England has produced a top top one, right.

Just putting it out there...
 

westmeath

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I love a bit of optimism and hope but I’m afraid it’s not in my nature to ever engage in it. All my life United have been shit. Every title we’ve ever won, I’ve said “that’s our last for twenty years, the club is doomed”. I was eventually proven right in 2013 it seems.
Axel’s performance the other night was so good though and so well timed given our recent defensive woes that maybe some degree of hope is justified at last.
 

romufc

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Yeah, PSG performance was impressive. We created good number of chances and as a team we did really well. I hope we build on this now.
This is the biggest problem we have had over recent years not just under Ole, we have good results and performances and then we drop intensity.

I think it is more that players in big games always look up for it, in smaller games the players are too passive, the intensity isnt quite there which means we are too open in midfield.
 

romufc

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Agreed!

I think some folks simply cannot see the work Solksjaer is doing possibly due to innate prejudices (not intentional). Unfortunately.

If he was German, Italian or Argentinian say, i.e. from superior footballing nations with many WC wins, then his progress so far would have been seen as brilliant and the big wins against City, Chelsea, PSG as tactical masterclasses. And by now, his football would've been labelled Oleball or something. But no, he is Norwegian, which is not as big a football nation relatively, so folks struggle to wrap the head around the possibility of him being potentially quite good - I mean when has Norway produced an elite / world-class football coach is perhaps the driver of that thought process. Not even England has produced a top top one - right?

Just putting it out there...
Exactly, this is what it is.

I have the perfect example, Ole being criticised for being negative and it doesn't work, he got lucky, bla bla bla.

The same fans are saying WOW! Arteta, Arteta ball, when they had 11 men behind the ball against all of the big teams, playing on the counter.

I hear people saying Arteta plays good football, dominates games and I was thinking, when? The formation he played to get to the FA cup win was a 5-2-3.
 

Le Red

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Margins are super fine. One call from the ref or one insane save that does or doesn't happen and you're looking at a very different game. I think we've been lucky and unlucky in equal measure, which along with individual errors and abberations has sometimes obscured the fact that there's definitely something coming together.

Brief wobbles in faith around Burnley and 1-6 aside, I remain convinced we're on the right track. Even if Solskjaer fails, we're being set up for years to come. The complete opposite of the last three managers. People laugh at the romantic notion of the 'United way' and all that, but exciting attacking football and a crop of academy players is an ideal and they're giving it a good go and growing something. It feels more like an ideal United side than at any other point in the best part of a decade, even if it's not quite there.

In the context of post-Ferguson Man United, and considering the reptile owners, we're being fixed up quite nicely. How successful it is remains to be seen but I'm enjoying the journey again.
The main reason why I support OGS is the fact that he gave the squad an identity that indeed represents what the fans see as the United way.
The current squad has absurd potential for growth in the next couple of years, unfortunately this project faces a major obstacle personificated in our disgraceful owners, damned be their names.
 

glazed

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I don't think Ole is getting easier to find out. We've been extremely consistent in 2020. I'd say it's the opposite, teams are struggling to beat us. In the last 25 games we've won 18. We can all get a bit pissy about the performances and demand the team controls the game more, or score more goals (we're doing that fine). But results have been excellent and consistent for months, close to a year.
Err you must have missed the Spurs game. And Chelsea. And Seville etc etc

We went to sh1t after the covid restart and have basically been awful since then right until the Newcastle game.
 
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glazed

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Are you really telling me that my counter of your argument was just mere of opinion? Opinion is something that lacks of evidence to back it up and if you think that way, I expect you to show it by making counter argument on them. It's more likely that you are just stating your own opinion but refuse to accept the actual reality.
Of course it's all just opinion. Evidence and counter argument doesn't alter that.

We struggled last season due to lack of creativity.
The bad run of the Spurs & Palace game earlier this season was caused from the lack of match fitness.
Ole won his last game against PSG due to his tactical plan.
So why did creative Bruno work pre-break but not post-break? Was it tiredness or lack of match fitness? Didn't that effect all the other teams the same? Surely we would have been more match fit as our season ran an extra two weeks.

Ole won against PSG because we scored more goals than them. The rest is your opinion and no less worthy of respect for being subjective. But just because you believe it 100% doesn't make it "actual reality" for anyone but you.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Of course it's all just opinion. Evidence and counter argument doesn't alter that.



So why did creative Bruno work pre-break but not post-break? Was it tiredness or lack of match fitness? Didn't that effect all the other teams the same? Surely we would have been more match fit as our season ran an extra two weeks.

Ole won against PSG because we scored more goals than them. The rest is your opinion and no less worthy of respect for being subjective. But just because you believe it 100% doesn't make it "actual reality" for anyone but you.
How do you view it as not working during the post break? 22 league goals in 9 league games. That’s basically on average of 2.4 goal per game.

If you are talking about this season, then you clearly didn’t read my post. PSG lost twice earlier this season. City also suffered the same. Wolves also suffered the same. Even Bayern lost 4-1 to Hoffenheim. It also effect the other teams. How can you call this as ‘’opinion’’ when it’s the reality?

Were you not watching the match how Ole changed his set up tactic when the score was still 1-1 against PSG? I’m not just making things up here, he changed the set up when he brought on Pogba.
 

Jezpeza

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I think there were distinct SAF eras - and he wasn't really the coach for much of his reign. Meulensteen in particular was a very sophisticated tactical coach iirc

Moyes is a tactical coach - just not a very good one. Van Gaal was well past his sell by date, as was Jose to a lesser extent.

Yeah I noticed that about Liverpool too. I actually think they would have been found out this season even before VvD got injured. It's a very open league this season.
yeah, we had phelan, mulensteen and maclaren. And carlos queiroz was the dogs bollocks as well.

ive been laughing at the high press for a while. Teams (us included) seem set on playing out from the back through it. Id be instructing all goal kicks to be kicked right into their half and instant clearances from the back.

leagues a joke this year. So many good sides and managers. Lots of teams with good squads. The effects of empty stadiums and the quick restart etc. Could be some dark horses in the top 6 come seasons end i believe
 

Bobcat

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Agreed!

I think some folks simply cannot see the work Solksjaer is doing possibly due to innate prejudices (not intentional). Unfortunately.

If he was German, Italian or Argentinian say, i.e. from superior footballing nations with many WC wins, then his progress so far would have been seen as brilliant and the big wins against City, Chelsea, PSG as tactical masterclasses. And by now, his football would've been labelled Oleball or something. But no, he is Norwegian, which is not as big a football nation relatively, so folks struggle to wrap the head around the possibility of him being potentially quite good - I mean when has Norway produced an elite / world-class football coach is perhaps the driver of that thought process. Not even England has produced a top top one, right.

Just putting it out there...
Exactly, this is what it is.

I have the perfect example, Ole being criticised for being negative and it doesn't work, he got lucky, bla bla bla.

The same fans are saying WOW! Arteta, Arteta ball, when they had 11 men behind the ball against all of the big teams, playing on the counter.

I hear people saying Arteta plays good football, dominates games and I was thinking, when? The formation he played to get to the FA cup win was a 5-2-3.
I mean, just look at this. Majority of the posters on the first page confidently put Arteta above Ole. Sure, he might be decent manager, but the jury still has to be out for him no? FA cup win is nice, but Arsenal did not even qualify for the EL last season, which is very much "midtable" according to the caf. Since he took over, they managed 8 wins in 20 his first season, this season they've beat WH, Sheffield and Fulham the latter two which are rock bottom and have been dreadful

Also, they've not really played the brand of "champagne football" that Arsenal has (had?) a reputation of playing, so i dont really see how people can be confident about how hes such a better manager than Ole
 

mav_9me

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Err you must have missed the Spurs game. And Chelsea. And Seville etc etc

We went to sh1t after the covid restart and have basically been awful since then right until the Newcastle game.
Huh? What was wrong with the Sevilla game? Other than the result. Cuz we battered them.
 

glazed

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How do you view it as not working during the post break? 22 league goals in 9 league games. That’s basically on average of 2.4 goal per game.
In the 9 games in the PL in 2020 between New Year and the lockdown we won 5 and drew 2. That's quite good.
In the 9 games after till the end of the season we won 3 and drew 3. That's not so good.
We also got pasted by Chelsea in the FA Cup semi and knocked out of Europa by Sevilla.
We also had a terrible start to this season until Newcastle.

How can you call this as ‘’opinion’’ when it’s the reality?
I'm trying to be respectful but you're making it hard to take you seriously.
 
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UNITED ACADEMY

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In the 9 games in the PL in 2020 between New Year and the lockdown we won 5 and drew 2. That's quite good.
In the 9 games after till the end of the season we won 3 and drew 3. That's not so good.
We also got pasted by Chelsea in the FA Cup semi and knocked out of Europa by Sevilla.
We also had a terrible start to this season until Newcastle.
Mate, you are wasting my time if you keep ignoring my whole post and only reading one sentence. Stop ignoring the reality that I just told you! What about you answer these questions because they are relevant to the argument.

1) Did we score 22 league goals in 9 games post break? This is relevant to your argument about Bruno's creativity pre and post break, don't ignore it.

2) Did Ole change the team's tactic against PSG when the score was 1-1 from 352 to 442 diamond? This is relevant to your argument about the lack of tactical plan, don't ignore it.

3) Did others team also had a terrible start to this season? This is relevant to your argument about the effect of lack pre-season, don't ignore it.



 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I'm trying to be respectful but you're making it hard to take you seriously.
You are not being respectful by keep ignoring the whole context of every my post and only reading & quoting one sentence/paragraph. You have done this 3x already!
 

RedSky

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Err you must have missed the Spurs game. And Chelsea. And Seville etc etc

We went to sh1t after the covid restart and have basically been awful since then right until the Newcastle game.
It's just not true though is it?
Club​
Games Post Lockdown​
W​
D​
L​
CS​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Manchester City​
21​
15​
1​
5​
10​
54​
19​
35​
Tottenham​
18​
11​
5​
2​
4​
42​
20​
22​
Manchester United​
21​
14​
3​
4​
8​
46​
26​
20​
Arsenal​
21​
14​
1​
6​
7​
33​
21​
12​
Chelsea​
21​
11​
3​
7​
7​
44​
32​
12​
Liverpool​
17​
9​
2​
6​
6​
30​
19​
11​

Lets assume for a moment that you look at the above table and think "we've been shit still".
Club​
Win %​
Draw %​
Loss %​
Manchester City​
71%​
5%​
24%​
Manchester United​
67%​
14%​
19%​
Arsenal​
67%​
5%​
29%​
Tottenham​
61%​
28%​
11%​
Liverpool​
53%​
12%​
35%​
Chelsea​
52%​
14%​
33%​

Joint 2nd highest Win %, 2nd lowest loss %. 2nd highest amount of clean sheets, 2nd highest goal per game ratio. Our performances at times have been debatable, that I can agree on. But we've been grinding out results since lockdown, we've done very well.
 

glazed

Full Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,536
You are not being respectful by keep ignoring the whole context of every my post and only reading & quoting one sentence/paragraph. You have done this 3x already!
Well they are kind of silly points that don't seem worth responding to. But OK.

Yes he changed tactics at 1-1 with PSG. Did that win the game? We can't say. As economists say, we don't have a counter factual to compare it to.

Yes other teams have started the season badly and others started it well. What has that got to do with anything? This happens every season by definition.

Goals scored is not a useful metric of how good you are at winning games of football when compared to the slightly better metric of how many games of football you won.

And just insisting that your take is the reality makes you sound like a sixth former. Maybe you are. I dunno.
 

sp_107

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
1,698
Location
Yorkshire
Talking about data, here's an interesting one... again this is calendar year 2020.

I can't work out whats more incredible, that Tottenham have only managed 6 clean sheets or that Chelsea have somehow conceded 6 more than Tottenham?

Also impressive from Arsenal, they look like a team heading in the right direction.

Club​
Games (All Comps)​
W​
D​
L​
CS​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Manchester City​
36​
26​
2​
8​
15​
84​
32​
52​
Manchester United​
39​
24​
7​
8​
20​
81​
37​
44​
Arsenal​
34​
22​
5​
7​
14​
54​
30​
24​
Liverpool​
33​
20​
3​
10​
14​
55​
34​
21​
Tottenham​
34​
16​
9​
9​
6​
61​
41​
20​
Chelsea​
34​
17​
7​
10​
11​
66​
47​
19​
If this table is true then we really made lot of progress.
We didnt win a cup in last 2 years but one thing definitely improved is the style of play and the excitement of looking forward to the next match which I missed under Jose/LVG
 

sp_107

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
1,698
Location
Yorkshire
Let's see how Ole compares to our post-Ferguson managers in a few areas:

  • Arguably been playing the best style of football under him

  • Feel like we've done well vs top teams with both LVG and Mourinho, but we've done exceptionally well in big games last season: vs PSG, Chelsea, Tottenham and City.

  • He's by far the best man-manager out of the 4

  • Revitalised Fred, Martial and Shaw (to me they're the 3 standout ones in this area, Martial especially became a great striker after struggling under José)
Rashford has also had his career-best season in 19/20 and matured into a top player, though I'm pretty sure that would've happened under any manager

  • Gets rid of players at the perfect time IMO (Herrera, Fellaini, Young, A.Pereira) and gets rid of deadwood instead of so many players overstaying their welcome for years...(Darmian, Sánchez, Lukaku)
Rojo, Jones and Lingard would've been almost certainly sold as well, but it's obviously difficult to get suitors with the wages we unfortunately pay these players. That's all down to the club's incompetence anyway.

  • We finally have a manager that gets most / almost all of his signings right, rather than just a few of them.
Maguire and Wan-Bissaka get a lot of flak but they both improved our defence significantly.

James was always gonna be considered a gamble for peanuts and he even started really well. He's not a lost cause anyway in my opinion, could do a job for us on the left side as a squad player. Not to mention that we can easily recoup the fee for him if he's sold.

Ighalo has probably done as well as expected and he's basically an unimporant signing.

Fernandes: No need to say anything.

The jury is still out for the 5 players we've signed this summer, but van de Beek and Telles both started well.



How is this NOT progress? Some people forget how underwhelming the previous 3 managers were.

Good Post..Feeling very positive..

I really wish Ole got a solid DM in Kante/Zakaria mould so we could have seen the true power of Bruno/Pogba playing together further up on the pitch.
I still think DM is the much needed position to fill in to compliment other attacking players but overall I am enjoying our football now and we made good progress for sure.
 

RedSky

likes to kick 10-year-olds
Scout
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
66,661
Location
Hereford FC (Soccermanager)
Goals scored is not a useful metric of how good you are at winning games of football when compared to the slightly better metric of how many games of football you won.
Completely agree... I know you said our form post lockdown was awful.... well... guess it wasn't.
Club​
Games​
W​
D​
L​
Win %​
Bayern Munich​
23​
22​
0​
1​
96%​
Real Madrid​
18​
13​
2​
3​
72%​
Manchester City​
21​
15​
1​
5​
71%​
Manchester United
21
14
3
4
67%
Arsenal​
21​
14​
1​
6​
67%​
Borussia Dortmund​
16​
10​
0​
6​
63%​
Tottenham​
18​
11​
5​
2​
61%​
Barcelona​
18​
11​
4​
3​
61%​
RB Leipzig​
17​
10​
5​
2​
59%​
AS Roma​
17​
10​
2​
5​
59%​
Napoli​
19​
11​
3​
5​
58%​
Sevilla​
21​
12​
7​
2​
57%​
Inter Milan​
23​
13​
7​
3​
57%​
Liverpool​
17​
9​
2​
6​
53%​
Atletico Madrid​
17​
9​
6​
2​
53%​
Chelsea​
21​
11​
3​
7​
52%​
Juventus​
20​
10​
5​
5​
50%​
Borussia Moönchengladbach​
15​
7​
4​
4​
47%​

The above is constructed using all games played since lockdown lifted in each country. Therefore it includes last season and this season.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
7,178
Well they are kind of silly points that don't seem worth responding to. But OK.

Yes he changed tactics at 1-1 with PSG. Did that win the game? We can't say. As economists say, we don't have a counter factual to compare it to.
He changed the tactic means he has other plan not just plan A, so that’s reality not just opinion. And we still won the game despite of the tactic changed, that’s also the reality not just opinion.

Yes other teams have started the season badly and others started it well. What has that got to do with anything? This happens every season by definition.
it is relevant to the argument about the effect of lack preparation for the player’s fitness. City & PSG were like us too as they finished the last season late compared to other team due to European comp semi & final means their players also came back late compare to the other teams due to late holiday and again less preparation for the player’s fitness, that’s the reality as well not just opinion.

Goals scored is not a useful metric of how good you are at winning games of football when compared to the slightly better metric of how many games of football you won.

And just insisting that your take is the reality makes you sound like a sixth former. Maybe you are. I dunno.
You were talking About ‘’creative’’ Bruno work pre-break & post-break. I mentioned goals because it is relevant to creativity mate and now you are changing the argument.

You wanna talk about win games now? Let me tell you something post break we won 6, drew 3 in 9 league games. That’s 66% wins, that’s higher than the 9 games in the PL in 2020 between New Year and the lockdown we won 5 and drew 2 which you called ‘’quite good’’ even though it was 55% wins.