"this midfield doesn't do enough offensively"

[Borys]

It’s true, they don’t do enough offensively, 1 goal from open play in the last 3 games when they have been on the pitch together. Doesn’t mean to say they don’t have their uses, like vs PSG both faultless played with high energy and intensity.

In the games where we played other midfield we scored a total number of 2 goals from open play. Just to add some perspective.

MU 1 - 3 Crystal Palace (vdB goal after deflection).
MU 1 - 6 Tottenham (Bruno pen)
Brighton 2-3 MU (own goal, Rashford goal, Bruno pen)

The brutal truth is that if we actually had a mobile CDM in there then wouldn't need 2 holding players and midfield could express themselves more

Definitely. But we don't, and we have around 50 games to play with current squad so we have to find a solution.
It's a boring discussion anyway, considering how we work in transfer market. We needed one "first XI" winger, and we got another CAM this summer.

I have a different opinion. The midfield don't create because we don't have forwards who can hold the ball.

Not sure if you've read my OP, or just the title.

Why is that (bold mark) even a problem? The double pivot midfield job isn’t to score or assist. Let the other 5 or 6 players (front four & full back) to create goals & assists.

This is my point exactly.

AWB-----Maguire/Lindelof-------Tuanzebe---------------Telles
----------------------Fred--------------VDB--------------------------
------------------------------Bruno-----------------------------------------
Greenwood---------------------------------------------------------Rashy-
-------------------------------Martial--------------------------------------

Tuanzebe provides the pace Maguire/Lindelof lack while VDB is far more hardworking then Pogba is while concurrently can pass the ball something McT can't. Now if Ole feels that the defence need more protection then play Shaw instead of Telles and move Telles as Winger. That's balance.

I'd be very happy if we could play that formation effectively, but putting van de Beek in deep midfield is wishful thinking for now. I'm afraid it'll be Pogba scenario all over again, and hope we don't waste half a season trying to convert another AM to CM. I will be very happy to be proven wrong if he's better then either McTominay/Fred in midfield, but from what I've seen so far there is nothing that suggests that.

Borys looking for excuses after a bland performance. I thought this was the CE forum for a second.

No need for excuses, we've had decent results with that midfield AND without our best attacking players available.

By the way, here you can see a table which gives overview of how many goals we've scored/conceded starting with different midfield setup (sorted by last column). Results will be somehow crooked by Spurs game, but at the same time we've been very lucky to get anything from Brighton, let alone a win.

Midfield (starting XI)	Scored	Conceded	Games	Ave goals	Ave conc.	AVE GD
Fred + 1	12​	2​	5​	2,4​	0,4​	2,0​
McTominay - Fred	9​	2​	4​	2,3​	0,5​	1,8​
McTominay + 1	10​	5​	5​	2,0​	1,0​	1,0​
Matic + 1	7​	8​	3​	2,3​	2,7​	-0,3​
Pogba + 1	5​	11​	3​	1,7​	3,7​	-2,0​
Matic - Pogba	4​	8​	2​	2,0​	4,0​	-2,0​

Draw conclusions yourself.

 

[devilish]

This isnt the case though.. Football is not about defence does its part, midfield does its part and attack does its part, its a team game.

Defending is not only about the back 5, its about defending as a team. McFred give us the defensive cover in midfield in winning the ball back, pressing opponents which neither Matic or Pogba can do.

The best teams have defensive cover.

Bayern play with Kimmich and Goretzka
Real play with Kroos and Casemeiro,
Even Pep in games goes in with Rodri and Fernandinho or Gundogan.
Liverpool play with Fabs, Henderson, Gini
Chelsea play with Kante and Jorginho

It not only provides the defensive cover, it also gives the attackers more freedom to express themselves.

Who said otherwise? Success is about having the right balance. When a team have a weakness in a particular department then the manager has no choice but to compensate for it. Now our defence is weak despite having AWB + Shaw (two defensive FBs) helping the central duo, one of whom costed us 80m. Under such circumstances we have no choice but to play Fred-McT to cover their arse. This will unfortunately have repercussions further up the pitch.

Kroos, Casemiro, Fabs, Kante and Jorginho are way better players then McT and Fred are. Also Liverpool have 2 top quality wingers, they have Thiago and they have 2 top quality attacking wingbacks who produce tons of assists. We've got AWB and Shaw with the latter producing just 7 assists in all his career. Which is more then 3 times what Fred & McT had produced while playing in midfield but it is still very low.

In my opinion the right balance can be reached with Tuanzebe as CB (thus adding pace in CB) + VDB-Fred-Bruno. Fred is more mobile to Matic and VDB is far more defensive savvy then Pogba. If our defence is still weak despite Ole injecting 145m in it then play Telles as winger with Shaw behind him. Whatever happens don't let our midfield be dominated with donkeys with lots of heart and no talent.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

If workrate alone win games then Stoke would win the treble. However don't make me stop you from comparing McT with Carrick and Scholes

How many times do I need to tell you until you can finally understand what is the basic.

Every midfielders need to track runners, going for 2nd ball and be discipline. They cannot be ball watching, this is basic. This is why Fred & McT are playing because Matic & Pogba didn’t do the basic right against Brighton & Spurs not because the manager doesn’t trust the defense.

Whether you are limited midfielder, playmaker, skilful, it doesn’t give you the right thing to be ball watching because despite of having top class notch passing, Carrick, Scholes & Keane still track runners, going for 2nd ball and be discipline off the ball.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

I start warming up to the idea of playing Fred + McTominay and 2 out of Bruno, Donny and Pogba as midfield 4 with Rashford plus Martial/Greenwood upfront.

 

[romufc]

Who said otherwise? Success is about having the right balance. When a team have a weakness in a particular department then the manager has no choice but to compensate for it. Now our defence is weak despite having AWB + Shaw (two defensive FBs) helping the central duo, one of whom costed us 80m. Under such circumstances we have no choice but to play Fred-McT to cover their arse. This will unfortunately have repercussions further up the pitch.

Kroos, Casemiro, Fabs, Kante and Jorginho are way better players then McT and Fred are. Also Liverpool have 2 top quality wingers, they have Thiago and they have 2 top quality attacking wingbacks who produce tons of assists. We've got AWB and Shaw with the latter producing just 7 assists in all his career. Which is more then 3 times what Fred & McT had produced while playing in midfield but it is still very low.

In my opinion the right balance can be reached with Tuanzebe as CB (thus adding pace in CB) + VDB-Fred-Bruno. Fred is more mobile to Matic and VDB is far more defensive savvy then Pogba. If our defence is still weak despite Ole injecting 145m in it then play Telles as winger with Shaw behind him. Whatever happens don't let our midfield be dominated with donkeys with lots of heart and no talent.

I agree, but wouldnt you rather compensate for the defence for a few games so we can build the confidence back up? rather than getting pumped every week?

Thiago has only been at Liverpool for 4 games, before that they have 0 midfield creativity, we have a no 10 who creates and scores. We have a ST who scores goals, Liverpool dont.

I am not here to talk about quality of the players, this is about playing 2 DM's.

Also, before Henderson played well, no one would have said he would be first choice for Liverpool.

Just because McTominay isnt a £60m rectruit doesnt mean he doesn't do a job.

 

[devilish]

How many times do I need to tell you until you can finally understand what is the basic.

Every midfielders need to track runners, going for 2nd ball and be discipline. They cannot be ball watching, this is basic. This is why Fred & McT are playing because Matic & Pogba didn’t do the basic right against Brighton & Spurs not because the manager doesn’t trust the defense.

Whether you are limited midfielder, playmaker, skilful, it doesn’t give you the right thing to be ball watching because despite of having top class notch passing, Carrick, Scholes & Keane still track runners, going for 2nd ball and be discipline off the ball.

Is Fred, VDB or Bruno ball watchers?

 

[devilish]

I agree, but wouldnt you rather compensate for the defence for a few games so we can build the confidence back up? rather than getting pumped every week?

Thiago has only been at Liverpool for 4 games, before that they have 0 midfield creativity, we have a no 10 who creates and scores. We have a ST who scores goals, Liverpool dont.

I am not here to talk about quality of the players, this is about playing 2 DM's.

Also, before Henderson played well, no one would have said he would be first choice for Liverpool.

Just because McTominay isnt a £60m rectruit doesnt mean he doesn't do a job.

So you agree that we are playing so many donkeys in midfield to protect a weak defence. That's the point I am trying to make. We spent 145m in a defence that usually play with 2 defensive FBs and yet they still have the need to have 2-3 work horses in midfield to protect their arse.

Having said that I still ole's reaction is extreme. Sure we can't play with maguire - lindelof - Matic - Pogba as our defensive core. That's borders to the idiotic. However if we play Tuanzebe (pace), Fred/McT (workrate) and VDB instead of Pogba then that would ring balance in midfield without sacrificing creativity too much

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Is Fred, VDB or Bruno ball watchers?

This is the argument, don’t move away from the original argument.

McT and Fred are playing because Ole can't trust the defence, the same defence he spent 145m on.

They are playing because Matic & Pogba were ball watching.

 

[Idxomer]

This isnt the case though.. Football is not about defence does its part, midfield does its part and attack does its part, its a team game.

Defending is not only about the back 5, its about defending as a team. McFred give us the defensive cover in midfield in winning the ball back, pressing opponents which neither Matic or Pogba can do.

The best teams have defensive cover.

Bayern play with Kimmich and Goretzka
Real play with Kroos and Casemeiro,
Even Pep in games goes in with Rodri and Fernandinho or Gundogan.
Liverpool play with Fabs, Henderson, Gini
Chelsea play with Kante and Jorginho

It not only provides the defensive cover, it also gives the attackers more freedom to express themselves.

Those pairs expose the problem with Fred and McTominay.

 

[devilish]

This is the argument, don’t move away from the original argument.



They are playing because Matic & Pogba were ball watching.

Matic-Pogba is as stupid and extreme as McT-Fred is. I wonder what ole was thinking.

Should I repeat the question?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Matic-Pogba is as stupid and extreme as McT-Fred is. I wonder what ole was thinking.

Should I repeat the question?

You question is becoming irrelevant if you don’t make a guess and know what Ole has in his mind.

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[romufc]

So you agree that we are playing so many donkeys in midfield to protect a weak defence. That's the point I am trying to make. We spent 145m in a defence that usually play with 2 defensive FBs and yet they still have the need to have 2-3 work horses in midfield to protect their arse.

Having said that I still ole's reaction is extreme. Sure we can't play with maguire - lindelof - Matic - Pogba as our defensive core. That's borders to the idiotic. However if we play Tuanzebe (pace), Fred/McT (workrate) and VDB instead of Pogba then that would ring balance in midfield without sacrificing creativity too much

They are not donkeys though, we have created more chances with them in the team. We could have spend £1bn on the defence without the correct protection, we would still struggle.

I know you want to see VDB and Tuanzebe start but surely to say oh Tuanzebe, I know you haven't played in a year but play 2 games a week in one of his more important spells in terms of fixtures?

 

[romufc]

Those pairs expose the problem with Fred and McTominay.

They expose the problem of quality, no one has claimed they are the best CM's, they are the best for United though.

 

[devilish]

They are not donkeys though, we have created more chances with them in the team. We could have spend £1bn on the defence without the correct protection, we would still struggle.

I know you want to see VDB and Tuanzebe start but surely to say oh Tuanzebe, I know you haven't played in a year but play 2 games a week in one of his more important spells in terms of fixtures?

But they are. Combined they produced just 2 assists. There is nothing wrong with having 1 of them playing. It's not really the United way but teams had won Cls and WCs with 1 Gattuso. But this overkill as it was overkill playing with Matic-Pogba-Bruno.

 

[Idxomer]

They expose the problem of quality, no one has claimed they are the best CM's, they are the best for United though.

Look at the attacking contributions either in buildup, assists, or goals from Kross, Kimmich, Gundogan or to a lesser extent Jorginho.

They're not there for defensive cover, like another poster said we're giving the job of one midfielder to two players and losing in return a lot as a team.

 

[devilish]

You question is becoming irrelevant if you don’t make a guess and know what Ole has in his mind.

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I repeat I don't give a feck what managers say in pressers. They won't expose their dirty laundry. I believe what I see on the pitch and what I see is a manager who has no clue what a balanced midfield is. We went from one extreme to another.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I repeat I don't give a feck what managers say in pressers. They won't expose their dirty laundry. I believe what I see on the pitch and what I see is a manager who has no clue what a balanced midfield is. We went from one extreme to another.

You said because the manager doesn’t trust his defense. Well, that’s where you are wrong which what I tried to tell you,

We have made 56 shots, scored 6 goals and only conceded from 2 own goals in 3 games ever since we started with these midfield, and those three games we played against different style of teams. What you believe or what’s right doesn’t mean it’s on the same page.

 

[devilish]

You said because the manager doesn’t trust his defense. Well, that’s where you are wrong which what I tried to tell you,

We have made 56 shots, scored 6 goals and only conceded from 2 own goals in 3 games ever since we started with these midfield, and those three games we played against different style of teams. What you believe or what’s right doesn’t mean it’s on the same page.

No manager plays with 2-3 defensive minded midfielders especially when he utilise a defence with 4 defensive minded defenders unless

A- he is a defensive manager
B- he doesn't trust his back lines

I don't think that Ole is a defensive manager and I understand why he doesn't trust that leaky defense of his. Also ole need to grasp what a balanced midfield is

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

No manager plays with 2-3 defensive minded midfielders especially when he utilise a defence with 4 defensive minded defenders unless

A- he is a defensive manager
B- he doesn't trust his back lines

I don't think that Ole is a defensive manager and I understand why he doesn't trust that leaky defense of his. Also ole need to grasp what a balanced midfield is

56 shots, scored 6 goals, conceded 2 own goals in 3 games ever since we played Fred-Scott & Bruno. What is wrong with that you call as unbalanced midfield?

When we played Matic Pogba Bruno which much more offensive mind midfielders, we had 12 shots, scored 4 goals, conceded 8 goals in 2 games. We create more chances in every single of our last three matches than those two matches (Brighton & Spurs) combined.

 

[Borys]

You said because the manager doesn’t trust his defense. Well, that’s where you are wrong which what I tried to tell you,

We have made 56 shots, scored 6 goals and only conceded from 2 own goals in 3 games ever since we started with these midfield, and those three games we played against different style of teams. What you believe or what’s right doesn’t mean it’s on the same page.

Exactly.

No manager plays with 2-3 defensive minded midfielders especially when he utilise a defence with 4 defensive minded defenders unless

A- he is a defensive manager
B- he doesn't trust his back lines

I don't think that Ole is a defensive manager and I understand why he doesn't trust that leaky defense of his. Also ole need to grasp what a balanced midfield is

You seem very negative against both Fred and McTominay, although clearly this is the best midfield pairing we've played this season. Starting with this midfield combo we've won 3 games and got only one draw. You also need to consider they are yet to play with attack at full strength, instead of James and Mata on the wings.

Ole will be more brave in next games I think, but there is a lot of things we can do do improve our attacking play before we even touch the midfield, which is the whole point of OP.

 

[devilish]

56 shots, scored 6 goals, conceded 2 own goals in 3 games ever since we played Fred-Scott & Bruno. What is wrong with that you call as unbalanced midfield?

When we played Matic Pogba Bruno which much more offensive mind midfielders, we had 12 shots, scored 4 goals, conceded 8 goals in 2 games. We create more chances in every single of our last three matches than those two matches (Brighton & Spurs) combined.

I repeat that midfield was moronic. Matic is slow and Pogba is a defensive liability. Ole should have known better. However we now went to another extreme now. Also note that despite going full catenacchio mode we still ended up with 2 own goals in 3 matches with the PSG game won with a penalty and Maguire going full WWE vs Chelsea. We could have easily ended up with 1 win, 1 draw and 1 defeat. So yes our defence cannot be trusted.

This apply to @Borys as well

 

[AneRu]

Look at the attacking contributions either in buildup, assists, or goals from Kross, Kimmich, Gundogan or to a lesser extent Jorginho.

They're not there for defensive cover, like another poster said we're giving the job of one midfielder to two players and losing in return a lot as a team.

It's a difficult one for Ole, the combinations we have in midfield just don't work well imo.

Pogba and Matic lack mobility and bite but on the ball they are the best, when on form.

McT and Fred have mobility and bite but are severely limited with the ball.

Ideally one would say play Pogba and McTominay as the latter is defensively strong enough to cover for Pogba's lapses but I don't think that duo is able to keep the ball well enough under pressure and that's compounded by Bruno's careless play.

I think, regardless of how great a DM you have they are still going to struggle playing in a trio that contains Bruno and Pogba because these two regularly lose possession in dangerous areas. Unless Bruno and Pogba put more discipline in their play we are always going to swing from one extreme to the other depending on results.

 

[romufc]

Look at the attacking contributions either in buildup, assists, or goals from Kross, Kimmich, Gundogan or to a lesser extent Jorginho.

They're not there for defensive cover, like another poster said we're giving the job of one midfielder to two players and losing in return a lot as a team.

Okay, lets have a look at them last season.

Looks like a very big difference right?

	Kroos	KImmich	Gundogan	McT	Jorginho	Henderson
Games	45	51	50	37	44	40
Goals	6	7	5	5	7 (6 pens)	4
Assists	9	17	5 (2 pens)	1	2	5

 

[drdoityourself]

You said because the manager doesn’t trust his defense. Well, that’s where you are wrong which what I tried to tell you,

We have made 56 shots, scored 6 goals and only conceded from 2 own goals in 3 games ever since we started with these midfield, and those three games we played against different style of teams. What you believe or what’s right doesn’t mean it’s on the same page.

United scored 3 of these 6 goals after one of them was taken off. Off the other three goals, one of them is from open play. Maguire was from a corner and Bruno scored from a penalty. This argument doesn't really hold up.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I repeat that midfield was moronic. Matic is slow and Pogba is a defensive liability. Ole should have known better. However we now went to another extreme now. Also note that despite going full catenacchio mode we still ended up with 2 own goals in 3 matches with the PSG game won with a penalty and Maguire going full WWE vs Chelsea. We could have easily ended up with 1 win, 1 draw and 1 defeat. So yes our defence cannot be trusted.

56 shots, conceded 27 shots in 3 games. None of PSG, Chelsea & Newcastle have created more chances than us, explain that??

May be the things you should complain about isn’t the midfield but the attackers, why are they not being clinical despite of us creating lot of chances and preventing opposition to create enough chances.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

United scored 3 of these 6 goals after one of them was taken off. Off the other three goals, one of them is from open play. Maguire was from a corner and Bruno scored from a penalty. This argument doesn't really hold up.

So the issue isn’t midfield but the attackers not being clinical enough then. 56 shots, conceded 27 shots in 3 games. None of PSG, Chelsea & Newcastle have created more chances than us. We created lot, they don’t and they needed own goal to score.

 

[Borys]

I repeat that midfield was moronic. Matic is slow and Pogba is a defensive liability. Ole should have known better. However we now went to another extreme now. Also note that despite going full catenacchio mode we still ended up with 2 own goals in 3 matches with the PSG game won with a penalty and Maguire going full WWE vs Chelsea. We could have easily ended up with 1 win, 1 draw and 1 defeat. So yes our defence cannot be trusted.

This apply to @Borys as well

What a weird thing to blame that on midfield.

You want to play the WHAT IF game?
We should've scored with 2vs1 against PSG in the first half.
We should've scored at least one against Chelsea. The reason why we were weak offensively is more because of a general mindset and personnel up front, rather than midfield.
We definitely shouldn't have won, or even drawn against Brighton. We were extremely lucky to get anything from that game. Game where we were killed with Pogba and Matic in midfield.

A lot of possible scenarios, but stats show we're definitely improving in every aspect of the game, being far from full strength offensively.

 

[PoTMS]

Can anyone explain why we gave Matic a three year contract? I mean he's good in fits and spurts but he needs to be upgraded if we want to challenge. Partey would've been perfect.

 

[Dante]

First choice:

Rashford----Martial

Pogba---------------------Bruno

Fred--Scott

Telles--------------------------------------Williams
Maguire--------Tuanzebe

DDG​

Second choice:

Cavani----Mason

VdB------------------------Mata

Matic--?????
Shaw--------------------------------------AWB
Lindelof--------Bailly

Henderson​

We can fix the defence by playing Fred+McTominay. We can fix the attack by playing Pogba+Bruno. But we can't fix both in a 4-3-3.

So.... let's try 4-2-2-2. I think it might really suit our players. There's even space there for Garner to fit in eventually. The only downside is the over-reliance on wingbacks. There are question marks over all four of our current options. But the spine is very, very strong.

 

[Idxomer]

Okay, lets have a look at them last season.

Looks like a very big difference right?

	Kroos	KImmich	Gundogan	McT	Jorginho	Henderson
Games	45	51	50	37	44	40
Goals	6	7	5	5	7 (6 pens)	4
Assists	9	17	5 (2 pens)	1	2	5

While both aren't very creative and lack a lot in this department, McTominay definitely offers less on the ball than Fred. The latter lack goal contributions so understand why you only posted McTominay's stats and opted for him as the creative choice between the two.

The difference is definitely big between the 1st two and the rest.

Where is also the passing stats? All five average at least 20 more passes per game than McTominay and let's not even talk about his passing accuracy, this is very poor for a Manchester United midfielder.

Using the eye test do you really think McTominay's contributions on the ball are anywhere close to where they should be?

Again your post mentioned that those pairs are there for pressing and defensive cover where it's very obvious one of them is more attacking and the other more defensive, ultimately both contribute on both fronts which we lack with Fred and McTominay.

 

[Idxomer]

It's a difficult one for Ole, the combinations we have in midfield just don't work well imo.

Pogba and Matic lack mobility and bite but on the ball they are the best, when on form.

McT and Fred have mobility and bite but are severely limited with the ball.

Ideally one would say play Pogba and McTominay as the latter is defensively strong enough to cover for Pogba's lapses but I don't think that duo is able to keep the ball well enough under pressure and that's compounded by Bruno's careless play.

I think, regardless of how great a DM you have they are still going to struggle playing in a trio that contains Bruno and Pogba because these two regularly lose possession in dangerous areas. Unless Bruno and Pogba put more discipline in their play we are always going to swing from one extreme to the other depending on results.

I think if you're going for two defensive midfielders, it should be Matic and Fred behind Bruno which worked relatively well earlier this year. McTominay should be saved only for certain games.

My choice would be a diamond with Matic at the base behind Fred and Pogba with Fernandes in no.10 role interchanging with Pogba.

 

[acnumber9]

Starting with this midfield combo we've won 3 games and got only one draw.

One league cup game, one league game in which we had to bring Pogba and Van De Beek on to actually go and win the game and PSG, where we also had to bring Pogba on to win the game. I’d agree they deserved a chance with how badly Pogba and Matic have started the season but they’re limited. And only really effective when we’re the underdog and not expected to control possession. Every highlight of their United careers have come in those type of games.

 

[spiriticon]

Let's try Van Der Beek in a deeper role behind Bruno.

He won't be as dynamic as Fred/McT or as creative as Pogba, but it might be a good balance to provide more for our offense without sacrificing the defence

 

[AneRu]

First choice:

Rashford----Martial

Pogba---------------------Bruno

Fred--Scott

Telles--------------------------------------Williams
Maguire--------Tuanzebe

DDG​

Second choice:

Cavani----Mason

VdB------------------------Mata

Matic--?????
Shaw--------------------------------------AWB
Lindelof--------Bailly

Henderson​

We can fix the defence by playing Fred+McTominay. We can fix the attack by playing Pogba+Bruno. But we can't fix both in a 4-3-3.

So.... let's try 4-2-2-2. I think it might really suit our players. There's even space there for Garner to fit in eventually. The only downside is the over-reliance on wingbacks. There are question marks over all four of our current options. But the spine is very, very strong.

I like the formation you have suggested and I think the solution for offensive fullbacks is simple, just play Laird and Telles then assess from there until the next window. Soon or later we are going to have to accept that AWB was a very expensive mistake but he still useful in certain games.

I think if you're going for two defensive midfielders, it should be Matic and Fred behind Bruno which worked relatively well earlier this year. McTominay should be saved only for certain games.

My choice would be a diamond with Matic at the base behind Fred and Pogba with Fernandes in no.10 role interchanging with Pogba.

I think the 4-2-2-2 as quoted above would work for us. Two attackers in their best roles, Marcus and Martial arent good as lone strikers but they have s good understand which makes them dangerous as a duo.

This and and the 3-5-2 are the only formations where we can use our primary creators in their preferred roles without really affecting the team's defensive balance.

The only issue is the quality from the fullbacks but I guess if we play Telles and Laird we could easily solve it but a lot depends on whether Laird stays fit and how he takes to first team football. Imo getting Pogba and Bruno in the same team and up the pitch has more upside than losing the nonexistent wingplay whose impact on our team is negligible.

 

[devilish]

56 shots, conceded 27 shots in 3 games. None of PSG, Chelsea & Newcastle have created more chances than us, explain that??

May be the things you should complain about isn’t the midfield but the attackers, why are they not being clinical despite of us creating lot of chances and preventing opposition to create enough chances.

If a team plays with 7-8 defensive minded players then its natural that it will probably have more shots on goal then the opposition. That's because they would close the gaps and win the ball more thus pushing the opposition in their own side. However its also normal that such dominance will fizzle into nothing. Such system makes us predictable and it also mean that we have less players capable of creating meaningful chances or score goals.

I am not suggesting that our attacking options are great. Greenwood is class but he's still work in progress, I am still not sure whether Rashford will make the transition to WC + I wonder if Martial is best suited as a striker in the first place. However such lack of goal conversion is yet another reason why we need VDB in the team. The guy provides workrate, he's a creator + he's got a superb eye for goal. VDB has scored a goal despite playing just 60 minutes of play. We already have a defence that creates very little as opposed to let's say Liverpool's. We can fill midfield with workhorses as well.

 

[devilish]

What a weird thing to blame that on midfield.

You want to play the WHAT IF game?
We should've scored with 2vs1 against PSG in the first half.
We should've scored at least one against Chelsea. The reason why we were weak offensively is more because of a general mindset and personnel up front, rather than midfield.
We definitely shouldn't have won, or even drawn against Brighton. We were extremely lucky to get anything from that game. Game where we were killed with Pogba and Matic in midfield.

A lot of possible scenarios, but stats show we're definitely improving in every aspect of the game, being far from full strength offensively.

I am not blaming the midfield. I am blaming defence actually. We still ended up with 2 own goals in 3 matches despite playing with 7-8 defensive minded players out of 11 players. Meanwhile we could have easily ended up losing against Chelsea because mr 80m went on full WWE on a Chelsea player. How much protection does this defence need?

I assure you that I am not a big fan of the Matic-Pogba tandem. I find our previous defensive central defensive core made up of DDG (he will never leave the line), 3 of the slowest defenders/DM in EPL history (Maguire, Lindelof, Matic) and a defensive liability (Pogba) to be border moronic. I've yet to understand why a supposed MUQ manager took so long before acknowledging that. Having said that we went from one extreme to another. We now play with 2 CM who COMBINED produced just 2 assists between them in front of a purely defensive minded defence and are further assisted with James AND Mata. That's overkill.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

If a team plays with 7-8 defensive minded players then its natural that it will probably have more shots on goal then the opposition. That's because they would close the gaps and win the ball more thus pushing the opposition in their own side. However its also normal that such dominance will fizzle into nothing. Such system makes us predictable and it also mean that we have less players capable of creating meaningful chances or score goals.

I am not suggesting that our attacking options are great. Greenwood is class but he's still work in progress, I am still not sure whether Rashford will make the transition to WC + I wonder if Martial is best suited as a striker in the first place. However such lack of goal conversion is yet another reason why we need VDB in the team. The guy provides workrate, he's a creator + he's got a superb eye for goal. VDB has scored a goal despite playing just 60 minutes of play. We already have a defence that creates very little as opposed to let's say Liverpool's. We can fill midfield with workhorses as well.

We had 14 shots against Chelsea 11 men. Liverpool had 18 shots against Chelsea 10 men as they got red card in first half. That’s only 4 shots difference. We had 28 shots against Newcastle United and Liverpool had 17 shots against Sheffield United.

We created in similar number as Liverpool did whether it’s against top team or lesser team. So, in other world, it’s good that we can create chances as much as how other top teams does and at the same time conceded less chances. Your reasoning of complaining doesn’t make sense, you should be moaning about the attackers not being clinical enough not the midfield.

 

[RORY65]

We had 14 shots against Chelsea 11 men. Liverpool had 18 shots against Chelsea 10 men as they got red card in first half. That’s only 4 shots difference. We had 28 shots against Newcastle United and Liverpool had 17 shots against Sheffield United.

We created in similar number as Liverpool did whether it’s against top team or lesser team. So, in other world, it’s good that we can create chances as much as how other top teams does and at the same time conceded less chances. Your reasoning of complaining doesn’t make sense, you should be moaning about the attackers not being clinical enough not the midfield.

I didn't see the Chelsea Liverpool game so I'm not sure about the quality of chances created there but having a shot is not the same as creating a chance. The Chelsea game we had one really good chance, which came off a counter attack (which we know we can do), after Jorginho gave the ball away and then barring that we had a couple of snap shots from outside of the box (Mata and Rashford) and Cavani's improvised flick from a set play and that was pretty much it. We dominated the game against Newcastle but outside of the penalty we created nothing of note until the last 5 minutes, where again we caught them on the counter attack.

I get the need to change the midfield because Matic and Pogba were not giving anything defensively or offensively and the 2 who have come in have stabilised us well when things were looking really ugly after the Spurs game but Fred and McTominay cannot be the answer long-term, they're nowhere near progressive enough with the ball and leave our front 4 as being completely responsible for creating and then finishing chances.

 

[UmbroDays]

McT and Fred are playing because Ole can't trust the defence, the same defence he spent 145m on.

Exactly. Ole has brought this issue upon himself and added to it even more by buying VdB

 

[Amir]

Using both McTominay and Fred reminds me of the times we used to start matches with Carrick and Fletcher. It's just too limited going forward (and Carrick was a superior passer to both McTominay and Fred).