"this midfield doesn't do enough offensively"

[Borys]

If a team plays with 7-8 defensive minded players then its natural that it will probably have more shots on goal then the opposition. That's because they would close the gaps and win the ball more thus pushing the opposition in their own side. However its also normal that such dominance will fizzle into nothing. Such system makes us predictable and it also mean that we have less players capable of creating meaningful chances or score goals.

I am not suggesting that our attacking options are great. Greenwood is class but he's still work in progress, I am still not sure whether Rashford will make the transition to WC + I wonder if Martial is best suited as a striker in the first place. However such lack of goal conversion is yet another reason why we need VDB in the team. The guy provides workrate, he's a creator + he's got a superb eye for goal. VDB has scored a goal despite playing just 60 minutes of play. We already have a defence that creates very little as opposed to let's say Liverpool's. We can fill midfield with workhorses as well.

Didn't you just contradict yourself in one pharagraph?
Sorry I don't understand your post at all.

I am not blaming the midfield. I am blaming defence actually. We still ended up with 2 own goals in 3 matches despite playing with 7-8 defensive minded players out of 11 players. Meanwhile we could have easily ended up losing against Chelsea because mr 80m went on full WWE on a Chelsea player. How much protection does this defence need?

I assure you that I am not a big fan of the Matic-Pogba tandem. I find our previous defensive central defensive core made up of DDG (he will never leave the line), 3 of the slowest defenders/DM in EPL history (Maguire, Lindelof, Matic) and a defensive liability (Pogba) to be border moronic. I've yet to understand why a supposed MUQ manager took so long before acknowledging that. Having said that we went from one extreme to another. We now play with 2 CM who COMBINED produced just 2 assists between them in front of a purely defensive minded defence and are further assisted with James AND Mata. That's overkill.

How is that relevant? It was just bad luck mate. I'm pretty sure we can go back here after next 10 games and that will still be a total of 2 own goals conceded.

I agree that's overkill, but first we need to be more brave with fullbacks, then play our best attackers available, and THEN we should worry about midfield.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I didn't see the Chelsea Liverpool game so I'm not sure about the quality of chances created there but having a shot is not the same as creating a chance. The Chelsea game we had one really good chance, which came off a counter attack (which we know we can do), after Jorginho gave the ball away and then barring that we had a couple of snap shots from outside of the box (Mata and Rashford) and Cavani's improvised flick from a set play and that was pretty much it. We dominated the game against Newcastle but outside of the penalty we created nothing of note until the last 5 minutes, where again we caught them on the counter attack.

I get the need to change the midfield because Matic and Pogba were not giving anything defensively or offensively and the 2 who have come in have stabilised us well when things were looking really ugly after the Spurs game but Fred and McTominay cannot be the answer long-term, they're nowhere near progressive enough with the ball and leave our front 4 as being completely responsible for creating and then finishing chances.

Cavani chance blocked by Silva. Rashford chance saved by Mendy. There are more quality chances than what you actually think. There is a reason why Silva & Mendy were the man of the match. Chelsea vs Liverpool were 0-0 until they got a red in end of first half, the two goals they scored happened in 2nd half against 10 men with Kepa as their keeper.

None say they should be the answer for long term but right now based on what we got those two are one of the best ones that we can play with and so far we are creating good amount of chances and conceded less chances. And there is nothing wrong about playing someone more defensive midfielders when Liverpool also play Fabinho & Henderson. There are many ways to create chances not that we must play 2 very creative midfielders to do so and so far we are doing it which proves since we are 5th best in xg (expected goal) and 2nd in xGA (expected goal against) ever since those two were played behind Bruno means good thing.

The chances we created were better than what City, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal did. And if you ask me why low block team like Sheffiled & Palace were better because they played against Fulham which you will understand if you have watch Fulham so far.

 

[devilish]

Didn't you just contradict yourself in one pharagraph?
Sorry I don't understand your post at all.


How is that relevant? It was just bad luck mate. I'm pretty sure we can go back here after next 10 games and that will still be a total of 2 own goals conceded.

I agree that's overkill, but first we need to be more brave with fullbacks, then play our best attackers available, and THEN we should worry about midfield.

Those 2 own goals came at the back of 6 goals against Spurs and 2 goals vs Brighton. Maguire had been a mess with England as well. There's no coincidence to that. I believe that football is a team game and the problem need to be tackled in such way. We need to find a balance between not getting too many goals and creating chances. Its easier said then done but having Fred/McT + VDB in midfield in a 4-3-3 system kind of helps. If that's ain't defensive enough then put Telles as LW and play Cavani upfront. Thus we'd have balance between defensive players, attacking players, width/crosses + players capable of cutting inside and cause damage. As said in multiple posts we seem to go from one extreme (Matic-Pogba-Bruno + 2 inside forwards) to another (McT-Fred-Bruno with James and Mata). Both extremes are bad.

 

[RORY65]

Cavani chance blocked by Silva. Rashford chance saved by Mendy. There are more quality chances than what you actually think. There is a reason why Silva & Mendy were the man of the match. Chelsea vs Liverpool were 0-0 until they got a red in end of first half, the two goals they scored happened in 2nd half against 10 men with Kepa as their keeper.

None say they should be the answer for long term but right now based on what we got those two are one of the best ones that we can play with and so far we are creating good amount of chances and conceded less chances. And there is nothing wrong about playing someone more defensive midfielders when Liverpool also play Fabinho & Henderson. There are many ways to create chances not that we must play 2 very creative midfielders to do so and so far we are doing it which proves since we are 5th best in xg (expected goal) and 2nd in xGA (expected goal against) ever since those two were played behind Bruno means good thing.

The chances we created were better than what City, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal did. And if you ask me why low block team like Sheffiled & Palace were better because they played against Fulham which you will understand if you have watch Fulham so far.

That data (which is flawed given that I think we would all agree our best chance against Chelsea was the Rashford chance that Mendy saved with his feet which xG counts as only 0.03 chance but admittedly the data does give some indication of performance) shows that even though we've 42 shots in our last 2 games our expected goals is below 3 but we've scored 4 which would suggest a point you've repeated that we're creating chances and our forwards are just not being clinical isn't quite correct. Plus Newcastle are generally a team that give up a lot of shots and at least half chances (they're 3rd for expected goals against this year and were 4th last year) so they also bump up our stats, the Chelsea game was just a dull, low quality game where they were happy with a point and we had our usual issue of creating chances when teams don't give us loads of space to counter attack.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That data (which is flawed given that I think we would all agree our best chance against Chelsea was the Rashford chance that Mendy saved with his feet which xG counts as only 0.03 chance but admittedly the data does give some indication of performance) shows that even though we've 42 shots in our last 2 games our expected goals is below 3 but we've scored 4 which would suggest a point you've repeated that we're creating chances and our forwards are just not being clinical isn't quite correct. Plus Newcastle are generally a team that give up a lot of shots and at least half chances (they're 3rd for expected goals against this year and were 4th last year) so they also bump up our stats, the Chelsea game was just a dull, low quality game where they were happy with a point and we had our usual issue of creating chances when teams don't give us loads of space to counter attack.

Are you telling me that West Ham & Burnley also don’t give up lot of shots like Newcastle? Our xG is still higher than City & Spurs and they played against those teams. So the data that I gave you here isn’t flawed. The reality is that we are still creating lot of chances and the quality is still good as the xG shows better than City & Spurs and at the same time we are 2nd best in term of xGA.

Would it be even better if we have Sancho or Martial or Pogba in place of someone like James who is poor in his decision making in the final third? I would say yes and I don’t think you can deny that. So people should moan to the attackers not the way how we set up our midfield with Fred & McT behind Bruno.

 

[RORY65]

Are you telling me that West Ham & Burnley also don’t give up lot of shots like Newcastle? Our xG is still higher than City & Spurs and they played against those teams. So the data that I gave you here isn’t flawed. The reality is that we are still creating lot of chances and the quality is still good as the xG shows better than City & Spurs and at the same time we are 2nd best in term of xGA.

Would it be even better if we have Sancho or Martial or Pogba in place of someone like James who is poor in his decision making in the final third? I would say yes and I don’t think you can deny that. So people should moan to the attackers not the way how we set up our midfield with Fred & McT behind Bruno.

All data has limitations and flaws. The first metric you used was just shots to indicate we were creating chances. Why don't Maguire and De Gea shoot every time they get the ball? That way we'd be the most creative team ever by that logic. Then using xG, which indicates that a Pogba shot that was blocked (0.09 xG) was three times better a chance than Rashford's 1 on 1 with Mendy (0.03), surely that indicates that there are at least flaws?

However, using xG Newcastle's expected goals against so far is 9.34 compared to Burnley's which is 5.18 and West Ham's which is 6.50. West Ham's last year was marginally higher than Newcastle's, which partially explains why they sacked their manager half way through the season, while Burnley's was more than 13 lower. More than a third of our xG against Chelsea came in the last 6 minutes after McTominay came off while we scored 3 of the 4 goals against Newcastle in the last 18 minutes after Fred was substituted (up until the penalty in 57th Newcastle's was actually higher than ours).

We have one of the most expensive squads in world football (a lot of that has been spent under Ole in fairness), our game plan cannot just be to rely on the front players to produce everything by themselves or to counter attack, that's way too limited. We didn't buy Sancho and even if we did, we would have to find a way of having more of the ball and creating chances with more of the ball. In my original post I stated why we had to revert to Fred and McTominay for now, we were appalling in our first 3 league games, but the reality is this system means you probably can't Pogba and Fernandes unless one of them is shoved out wide so eventually we will have to find a new system because you cannot have 4 to do the attacking and the other 7 to essentially just defend because they're too limited to do more.

 

[Borys]

Cavani chance blocked by Silva. Rashford chance saved by Mendy. There are more quality chances than what you actually think. There is a reason why Silva & Mendy were the man of the match. Chelsea vs Liverpool were 0-0 until they got a red in end of first half, the two goals they scored happened in 2nd half against 10 men with Kepa as their keeper.

None say they should be the answer for long term but right now based on what we got those two are one of the best ones that we can play with and so far we are creating good amount of chances and conceded less chances. And there is nothing wrong about playing someone more defensive midfielders when Liverpool also play Fabinho & Henderson. There are many ways to create chances not that we must play 2 very creative midfielders to do so and so far we are doing it which proves since we are 5th best in xg (expected goal) and 2nd in xGA (expected goal against) ever since those two were played behind Bruno means good thing.

The chances we created were better than what City, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal did. And if you ask me why low block team like Sheffiled & Palace were better because they played against Fulham which you will understand if you have watch Fulham so far.

How do I read that?

All data has limitations and flaws. The first metric you used was just shots to indicate we were creating chances. Why don't Maguire and De Gea shoot every time they get the ball? That way we'd be the most creative team ever by that logic. Then using xG, which indicates that a Pogba shot that was blocked (0.09 xG) was three times better a chance than Rashford's 1 on 1 with Mendy (0.03), surely that indicates that there are at least flaws?

However, using xG Newcastle's expected goals against so far is 9.34 compared to Burnley's which is 5.18 and West Ham's which is 6.50. West Ham's last year was marginally higher than Newcastle's, which partially explains why they sacked their manager half way through the season, while Burnley's was more than 13 lower. More than a third of our xG against Chelsea came in the last 6 minutes after McTominay came off while we scored 3 of the 4 goals against Newcastle in the last 18 minutes after Fred was substituted (up until the penalty in 57th Newcastle's was actually higher than ours).

We have one of the most expensive squads in world football (a lot of that has been spent under Ole in fairness), our game plan cannot just be to rely on the front players to produce everything by themselves or to counter attack, that's way too limited. We didn't buy Sancho and even if we did, we would have to find a way of having more of the ball and creating chances with more of the ball. In my original post I stated why we had to revert to Fred and McTominay for now, we were appalling in our first 3 league games, but the reality is this system means you probably can't Pogba and Fernandes unless one of them is shoved out wide so eventually we will have to find a new system because you cannot have 4 to do the attacking and the other 7 to essentially just defend because they're too limited to do more.

That's not the case though. We're creating enough to score more goals, but
a) Rashford has missed a lot of chances already (some easy some more difficult but still)
b) Greenwood was out of team mostly so far
c) Martial seems a little lost/out of form
d) Cavani is not fit yet
e) Ole has been stubborn with James

Our attacking formation is not performing up to the standard, this should be addressed first. But we're definitely on the right path, so don't see any reason to change what seems to be working fine.

What most people seem to ignore is the fact we have goals coming from many different players, and in different ways - defense (Maguire, AWB), midfield (McTominay, Mata, van de Beek) and attack (Bruno, Rashford).

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

All data has limitations and flaws. The first metric you used was just shots to indicate we were creating chances. Why don't Maguire and De Gea shoot every time they get the ball? That way we'd be the most creative team ever by that logic. Then using xG, which indicates that a Pogba shot that was blocked (0.09 xG) was three times better a chance than Rashford's 1 on 1 with Mendy (0.03), surely that indicates that there are at least flaws?

However, using xG Newcastle's expected goals against so far is 9.34 compared to Burnley's which is 5.18 and West Ham's which is 6.50. West Ham's last year was marginally higher than Newcastle's, which partially explains why they sacked their manager half way through the season, while Burnley's was more than 13 lower. More than a third of our xG against Chelsea came in the last 6 minutes after McTominay came off while we scored 3 of the 4 goals against Newcastle in the last 18 minutes after Fred was substituted (up until the penalty in 57th Newcastle's was actually higher than ours).

We have one of the most expensive squads in world football (a lot of that has been spent under Ole in fairness), our game plan cannot just be to rely on the front players to produce everything by themselves or to counter attack, that's way too limited. We didn't buy Sancho and even if we did, we would have to find a way of having more of the ball and creating chances with more of the ball. In my original post I stated why we had to revert to Fred and McTominay for now, we were appalling in our first 3 league games, but the reality is this system means you probably can't Pogba and Fernandes unless one of them is shoved out wide so eventually we will have to find a new system because you cannot have 4 to do the attacking and the other 7 to essentially just defend because they're too limited to do more.

How is it too limited when we created 56 shots in 3 games? Quality chances is depending on quality not quantity! That’s already enough for us to score goals if your argument is about ‘’quantity’’. If ‘’quality’’ is your argument then it will improve when we upgrade Shaw, James or may be even Mata.

I‘m not really sure where is this Pogba 0.09 xG and this Rashford 1 on 1 xG 0.03 coming from, not like it’s relevant to what I have shown anyway. What I have shown isn’t flawed as it showed both quality and quantity and which reflects to my point that we can still create lot of chances despite of having Fred & McT in midfield and quality still not bad as it’s above City, Spurs, Arsenal & Chelsea. And if you lot are still moaning about the quality then moan to the attackers and I’m sure it will improve with player like Shaw & James being upgraded.

xGA only shows the quality chances of conceded. It is irrelevant with your statement about giving up lot of shots. If anything, west ham has played against more top teams than Newcastle so far. When the lesser team like Newcastle or west ham play against the top team, their set up will be different to when they played against the lesser one or mid table because against the top team they will focus more in defense, sit deep and more compact aka they are focusing more in defending. It means they will conceded more shots but the quality doesn’t always mean high as the top team will find it harder to create higher expected goal chances against team that set up like that. While the mid table or lesser will find it easier to create higher expected goal chances since they will be more open.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

How do I read that?

xG is expected goal used to value the quality of chances created. The higher the better.

It just shows that in the last two league games, our quality chances aka xG (expected goal) is higher than city, spurs, Arsenal & chelsea in the last two games. And we also created 42 shots in those two games means we have no problem to create chances. That xG number aka quality of our chances can only increase if we upgrade someone like James or even Shaw for example to Martial or Telles as those have better final third decision making and more creative.

xGA is expected goal against used to value the quality of chances conceded. The lower the better. And we are 2nd best based on the last two games. And to be honest 1.09 is very low number anyway especially consider lot of teams has 1.5 or 2.5 or above.

 

[Borys]

Rashford and Martial did amazingly well to make Everton game difficult. If Rashford had his RB Lipsk boots on, both Fred and McTominay could've had an assist. But since he didn't, there will be someone moaning about them not adding anything to offensive play.

They are becoming more adventurous, some nice passing between the lines.