The last 9 words
Yeah that's really cool down the supporters towards him
Thomas Frank | Tottenham Manager
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The last 9 words
Yeah that's really cool down the supporters towards him
What did Arsenal do that we couldn't do against Spurs?
What did we do against Arsenal that Spurs couldn't do? Hard to analyse along those lines
Has there ever been a manager who worked for as long as Thomas Frank or David Moyes did in the lower levels of the game well until their late '40s who then went on to get a big job and made a success of it? I might be missing someone but it seems to me like great managers start winning very early on in their career when you look at Pep, Ancelotti, Zidane, Klopp...
Two deflections.
Ten Hag was 48 when he got the Ajax job, 52 when he got the United one. Fairly late on. And a relative success
Who is calling the shots now at Spurs with Levy gone?
Are they likely to have more patience than Levy? This is probably what Thomas' long term future (whatever long term is for a football manager), will be riding on. In theory, he should be getting 3 years unless spurs are down in the bottom 5.
Are they likely to have more patience than Levy? This is probably what Thomas' long term future (whatever long term is for a football manager), will be riding on. In theory, he should be getting 3 years unless spurs are down in the bottom 5.
That's a fair shout. Although, you can argue that Ten Hag started his career at the relatively late age of 42. I guess my point is it's really rare if not unheard of that you work 10 or 15 years at mid or lower level and then suddenly be able to make the jump to a team that consistently has to win. Once you work at a certain level for over a decade, that's usually your level because that is either your mindset or at least the mindset you become most used to and build your ideas around. It's very hard to switch gears.
The last 9 words
Yeah that's really cool down the supporters towards him
He's such a prick.
Zidane is a great manager? He's managed what, 3-4 seasons with one of the best squads in the world. What makes him great or in any way mentioned the same way as the others?
Wenger was 47 when he joined Arsenal. Allegri joined Milan at 43. Ferguson won his first title with United at 49. Unlike the guys you mentioned, they weren't fast tracked because of their playing career. If you're a successful player who goes straight into coaching you have a MASSIVE advantage over someone like Thomas Frank or EtH. Nationality also plays a big part.
I'm sure "yeah, but Spurs were shit before I got here" is exactly what their fans want to hear after they've been pumped in their derby.
Shades of Ange and his own brand of self-preservation bullshitting.
I really think you missed my point. Sir Alex won his first title when he was 39. Wenger won his 10 years before he won the PL with Monaco. My point is the successful managers start managing teams that compete to win from an early age or early in their career at least. Maybe there is an example here or there but I can't think of a manager that went on to win big titles who spent the prior 10 or 15 years of their career managing at mid table.
You might think Zidane is not great and that's fine. I don't put him at the top table but I wouldn't dismiss the only manager in recent history to win 3 CLs in a row. That's a debate for another day though.
Sarri I suppose. Managed since the 1990’s, took until 2019 to win the Europa and later Serie A.
The last 9 words
Yeah that's really cool down the supporters towards him
”I always finish 13th in my first PL season”
Hansi Flick, sort of. Although he technically won some titles in the German third division.
I mean to be fair, that Spurs squad without Kulusevski and Maddison is about as ugly as the football they play. It's full of workhorses and physical players with little technical ability.
Yes and he beat us 4 times and won the Europa League against us and that still hurts losing to his Tottenham.
Because midfield is an afterthought for us, we have a weakness down the centre - its a free pass to run down the middle for opposition teams.
Ange managed to stop them declining after Son and Kane left
Common enough in Italy - Lippi, Allegri, Gasperini, Sarri etc.
Can definitely see Spurs going for Allegri next
Yup, this is ultimately the problem.
Spurs fans (with a complicit media) like to big up their players but they lack technical quality throughout the squad and the players with the most quality are injured.
They have a bunch of players at the fullback, winger, and midfield positions who are good athletes, and some of them are good dribblers in the right situation, but who cannot reliably play one touch football, pass the ball to the correct foot of the receiving player, etc. Its just really hard to keep the ball and play out from the back with these kinds of players.
Please don’t sack him until after we play them at home. We’ll smash them.
Exactly. I said this a while back when there were fans on here asking for Frank to be our manager. His football has always been negative.
The reason why most fans saw him as a good fit was because the negative football worked quite well against big teams, lets be fair most of us only really watch those games. Not many will be watching Brentford V Wolves at 3pm.
So, the Spurs fans who are surprised, saying oh he used to play better football at Brentford.. No he didn't.
Does Hansi Flick count. Very odd career trajectory in a sense, being an assistant for so long and out of nowhere wins a treble with Bayern.
I think @Wonder Pigeon 's post counts more as my question was about managers who spend a decade or more of their career working at mid table or lower level having to constantly be reactive and adjust without the pressure of having every decision micro analyzed and criticized for not playing on the front foot. Flick still worked most his career in environments that were about being the protagonist and winning. The Italian managers are a good point though. Lippi spent 10 years in lower jobs in Italy before a very successful period Juve but I think the point still stands. The majority of elite managers start competing at the top level early in their managerial career. Profiles like Thomas Frank or David Moyes are extremely rare to go on and be a success at a big club.
I think that sticking with 5 defenders + a CDM at home vs 10 man Everton being a goal down is as close to underdog, defeatist, anti-football as you get.
Maybe not time-wasting, but completely unacceptable as United manager.
It is a little bit weird that people are calling him negative in what appears to be an argument for Amorim being the better choice when Amorim is easily the most defensive manager in the league.
That's just not true. There is nothing inherently defensive about any formation. Amorim is failing at implementation and execution but his mindset is not like Frank's. He might be incompetent, a fraud, whatever you want to call him but he doesn't see the game in a reactive manner the way Frank does.
Formation aside I believe that it's (too) negative to start with five defenders plus a defensive minded CDM at home vs Everton. It could maybe work with Mendes and Hakimi at wing backs, but the fact is that we have Mazraoui and Dorgu starting with a combined offensive output of around -10.
In any case, I believe it's Amorims fault for not switching to a formation that suits the strengths of our current current squad. I mean, what the hell do we expect with those cones starting at wing back in this formation?
He changed it second half, but that isn't the point. Starting Amad at wing-back should be a non-negotiable. We are massively stunted when we use fullbacks there. Not that this was the only issue of course.
Let's agree to disagree then. I think that everything about his (and the team's) performance today cowardly, negative, and defeatist.
Finishing the game with 3 CBs and 2 WBs trailing to fecking Everton at OT.
We should probably be more preoccupied with the state of our team and manager than the state of Frank and Spurs.
Like I say, the lineup we went with in the second half is the lineup I would have started with. Aside from that, it's on the players.
Spurs and Frank are no better than us.
I agree that it was a better/more positive line-up than what we started with. However, keeping three CB's - with no real ability going forward - on the pitch when losing to 10 man Everton and not changing to a more attacking formation is just straight stupid and cowardly.
This season we're equal on points in the league though with Spurs playing regular Champions League games and this includes Amorim's best period and only consecutive wins.
We finished 16th under Amorim last season so I think it's safe to say that Amorim has been worse for United than Frank has for Spurs so far.
Stupid and cowardly it may be, but three centre backs is the foundation of Amorim's tactical plan. The issue is that we aren't getting more out of them in terms of influence and progression. The left wing-back is poor regardless of whoever it is and we are in desperate need of two fully functioning central midfielders.
I'd argue that Frank has had a far easier transition than Amorim did last season. A full preseason and playing a similar system to his predecessors.
There you have it - the fundamental issue. IMO, unless you have a very specifically suited set of players, his system is just inherently negative and defensive. The problem is that he doesn't have players like PSG or the luxury of having a tailor made (and relatively much superior squad) squad suited to his very niche system as he did at Sporting.
Since he doesn't have the players needed to succeed with his system he has two options from my point of view:
1. Persist with the system no matter what - even if it means starting with 5 defenders with no offensive input. We can see what that has produced so far: 9 games and 18 losses in 34 games and consistent shit on a stick football.
2. Try other systems that may suit our squad better and may produce better results. Try switching formations in-game depending on the how the game plays out - e.g., sub defenders for attackers when trailing against bad opposition. However, this option is completely hypothetical as he will not change.
As for Frank, I'll counter by pointing out that he outperformed Amorim last season, finishing 10th with a less talented squad. While I wouldn't want either of them as United manager, I find it hard to take any arguments suggesting Frank is as poor a PL manager as Amorim seriously.
He has definitely gone with option number 1. The reason why we were so poor last season was partly due to the players having to learn a new system, but also because our squad lacked many of the profiles required to make it work. We're a bit better this season, purely because we have a couple of new players who fit the system better. We're still in need of better fits for certain positions. Just depends if the decision makers feel the end result is worth the current turbulence.
Frank was at Brentford for years. Not the most talented team perhaps, but it worked like clockwork. They all knew the system. They all knew their jobs. Importantly, they had Mbeumo and Wissa. We had Garnacho and Højlund.
Another manager who Amorim will inexplicably outlast, I think.
He's not a bad manager at all imo.
However bit of a shock how bad Spurs are at home. 1 win in six (they nearly lost to Wolves two months ago) and now 2-0 down to Fulham in five minutes.
This is where it's different to him compared to Brentford. 60k fans paying huge amounts and the press will certainly go after him tomorrow and Monday if they lose this.
Then have Newcastle away on Tuesday so their results are starting to match their actual performances and it is all unravelling.
However bit of a shock how bad Spurs are at home. 1 win in six (they nearly lost to Wolves two months ago) and now 2-0 down to Fulham in five minutes.
This is where it's different to him compared to Brentford. 60k fans paying huge amounts and the press will certainly go after him tomorrow and Monday if they lose this.
Then have Newcastle away on Tuesday so their results are starting to match their actual performances and it is all unravelling.
He never struck me as a manager suited to make the step up to one of the so-called 'big six' clubs. This reminds me of when Moyes treated the United job like he was still at Everton.
Silva feels the same in opposite dugout.
Putting on a coaching clinic currently with how Fulham are playing around Spurs but Silva is a bit emotional and that transmits to the team in tense scenarios.
Think the bigger thing for Spurs is identity issues. They're in one of the best stadiums currently in the modern era but that dosen't automatically mean they can go toe-to-toe with Arsenal and Chelsea in the league.
Their playing pool compared to those sort of teams just isn't that good especially in the final third.