Thomas Tuchel | Gone

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
110,854
Location
Dublin, Ireland
I think they fell out when the owner wanted to force Ronaldo into the squad
 

giorno

boob novice
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
22,904
Supports
Real Madrid
Tommy Tuchel fell out with every club he worked for

This shouldn't come as a surprise
 

strongwalker

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
3,336
Location
2km from Olympiastadion München
Supports
FC Bayern München
According to a report in the BILD, Tuchel and his team had some moments with Boehly and Eghbali described as "slapstick" - in one meeting, Boehly presented his idea of a team lineup with a 4-4-3 formation (genius!)
 

Bluelion7

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
508
Supports
Chelsea
I think they fell out when the owner wanted to force Ronaldo into the squad
There were lots of situations that built up into the relationship not being workable.

But the issue wasn’t just Ronaldo. If that was the case you could have signed him the last window week and found ways to make Tuchel quit, but that would be the wrong thing to do.

No, this is about going to Tuchel and asking him, nicely, if he would sit down and explain to them why signing Ronaldo was a bad idea, and having Tuchel essentially telling them to feck off, and it wasn’t worth an answer.

This is nothing new. Tuchel acts like he’s Picasso working in his studio being bothered by a reporter at his gate….all the time. He makes doing even he most mundane things into a nuisance, and apparently got harsher about it after his divorce.

The fact that Ronaldo was the particular player involved in that specific incident is incidental. The incidents were the issue.
 

Synco

Lucio's #1 Fan
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,122
There were lots of situations that built up into the relationship not being workable.

But the issue wasn’t just Ronaldo. If that was the case you could have signed him the last window week and found ways to make Tuchel quit, but that would be the wrong thing to do.

No, this is about going to Tuchel and asking him, nicely, if he would sit down and explain to them why signing Ronaldo was a bad idea, and having Tuchel essentially telling them to feck off, and it wasn’t worth an answer.

This is nothing new. Tuchel acts like he’s Picasso working in his studio being bothered by a reporter at his gate….all the time. He makes doing even he most mundane things into a nuisance, and apparently got harsher about it after his divorce.

The fact that Ronaldo was the particular player involved in that specific incident is incidental. The incidents were the issue.
This picture of Tuchel is so cartoonish that one may get the idea it isn't a fair representation of what actually happened, but rather one side's unfiltered PR.
 

Litch

Full Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
9,221
Amazing how things can change so quickly in football. I think next season Klopp is history too….
 

MackRobinson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
3,310
Location
Terminal D
Supports
Football
Tommy Tuchel fell out with every club he worked for

This shouldn't come as a surprise
Zebra's don't change their stripes. I have a friend who falls out with so many people he works closely with. You realize people like that seldom change.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
45,667
Location
Chelsea (the saviours of football) fan.
This picture of Tuchel is so cartoonish that one may get the idea it isn't a fair representation of what actually happened, but rather one side's unfiltered PR.
The other side seems to paint the owners as so dumb they don't know you can only have 11 players on a team.

Both are just the usual made-up bollocks designed to generate clicks and retweets.
 

Synco

Lucio's #1 Fan
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,122
The other side seems to paint the owners as so dumb they don't know you can only have 11 players on a team.

Both are just the usual made-up bollocks designed to generate clicks and retweets.
That's what I was going for. I think between the lines you can see how it fell apart, and why Boehly etc. chose to continue with Potter. But taking these twitter/sports journo infobits as gospel is not a good idea.
 

Bluelion7

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
508
Supports
Chelsea
This picture of Tuchel is so cartoonish that one may get the idea it isn't a fair representation of what actually happened, but rather one side's unfiltered PR.
But when you say that, you act like it is just Chelsea. Mainz is the only job Tuchel has ever made it more than two seasons. And in every other situation the issue with Tuchel has always been the same: genius on the field , disaster off it.

The reports of the issues are coming directly from people who were there and following the team. The descriptions of what it was like, even for the players, during the American tour are … really bad.

And nobody would bother mentioning it if it weren’t for the attempts at painting the new owners as irrational idiots that just bought their first sports team, and are overreacting after a few bad matches.

Botb Sides concede the decision to move away from Tuchel started awhile ago. Romano says it started nearly a month ago… which would mean results played very little part. Whiiiich only adds veracity to the reports from many different sources, again, that the issues with Tuchel were fundamental.

and cartoonish …. Do we not remember the incident with Conte? Hanna Barbara couldn’t have created a more cartoonish scene than that.
 

Synco

Lucio's #1 Fan
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,122
But when you say that, you act like it is just Chelsea. Mainz is the only job Tuchel has ever made it more than two seasons. And in every other situation the issue with Tuchel has always been the same: genius on the field , disaster off it.

The reports of the issues are coming directly from people who were there and following the team. The descriptions of what it was like, even for the players, during the American tour are … really bad.

And nobody would bother mentioning it if it weren’t for the attempts at painting the new owners as irrational idiots that just bought their first sports team, and are overreacting after a few bad matches.

Botb Sides concede the decision to move away from Tuchel started awhile ago. Romano says it started nearly a month ago… which would mean results played very little part. Whiiiich only adds veracity to the reports from many different sources, again, that the issues with Tuchel were fundamental.

and cartoonish …. Do we not remember the incident with Conte? Hanna Barbara couldn’t have created a more cartoonish scene than that.
Don't really have much to add beyond what I've already written, tbh.
 

edcunited1878

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
7,399
Location
San Diego, CA
But when you say that, you act like it is just Chelsea. Mainz is the only job Tuchel has ever made it more than two seasons. And in every other situation the issue with Tuchel has always been the same: genius on the field , disaster off it.

The reports of the issues are coming directly from people who were there and following the team. The descriptions of what it was like, even for the players, during the American tour are … really bad.

And nobody would bother mentioning it if it weren’t for the attempts at painting the new owners as irrational idiots that just bought their first sports team, and are overreacting after a few bad matches.

Botb Sides concede the decision to move away from Tuchel started awhile ago. Romano says it started nearly a month ago… which would mean results played very little part. Whiiiich only adds veracity to the reports from many different sources, again, that the issues with Tuchel were fundamental.

and cartoonish …. Do we not remember the incident with Conte? Hanna Barbara couldn’t have created a more cartoonish scene than that.
Tuchel wasn't a genius for Chelsea...he took Chelsea as far as he could and the new owner took advantage of his new era and got a manager that he chose and sacked the incumbent.

Tuchel reverted back to what made the team successful just a season or 2 from Conte. It provided familiarity and stability. They were difficult to breakdown and scored just enough goals to get through CL. But in the league, Chelsea were never good enough under Tuchel. They were a cup team under Tuchel, which they have been more so than not.
 

Rnd898

Full Member
Joined
May 7, 2022
Messages
228
Supports
Chelsea
Tuchel wasn't a genius for Chelsea...he took Chelsea as far as he could and the new owner took advantage of his new era and got a manager that he chose and sacked the incumbent.

Tuchel reverted back to what made the team successful just a season or 2 from Conte. It provided familiarity and stability. They were difficult to breakdown and scored just enough goals to get through CL. But in the league, Chelsea were never good enough under Tuchel. They were a cup team under Tuchel, which they have been more so than not.
In the first 38 league matches under Tuchel spanning from Jan-21 to Dec-21, timeline picked to equal a full season's worth of league games, we collected 79 points (23-10-5) with a GD of +41 (67F, 26A).

While that's not exactly league title winning good, it was still some of our best form in many years so I think saying it wasn't 'good enough' is a bit harsh and that's before even mentioning the UCL title won in between them. In that first year under Tuchel I don't think we were wrong to be optimistic about challenging for the PL in the future under him with perhaps a few key reinforcements added in the playing personnel.

Winning it in 2021/22 was always a long shot, though I would have expected us to be closer than 19 points behind City in the end so in that regard Tuchel definitely failed in the second half of the season with only 33 points in 19 games collected. For whatever reason that same bad form seemed to have followed us into the new season too which, along with some turbulence behind the scenes, resulted in Tuchel being quickly dismissed.
 

Brwned

Have you ever been in love before?
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
50,425
But when you say that, you act like it is just Chelsea. Mainz is the only job Tuchel has ever made it more than two seasons. And in every other situation the issue with Tuchel has always been the same: genius on the field , disaster off it.

The reports of the issues are coming directly from people who were there and following the team. The descriptions of what it was like, even for the players, during the American tour are … really bad.

And nobody would bother mentioning it if it weren’t for the attempts at painting the new owners as irrational idiots that just bought their first sports team, and are overreacting after a few bad matches.

Botb Sides concede the decision to move away from Tuchel started awhile ago. Romano says it started nearly a month ago… which would mean results played very little part. Whiiiich only adds veracity to the reports from many different sources, again, that the issues with Tuchel were fundamental.

and cartoonish …. Do we not remember the incident with Conte? Hanna Barbara couldn’t have created a more cartoonish scene than that.
And this is why it reads like unfiltered PR. Because it is. You’ve latched onto a story that rationalises things in a negative light for the person being kicked out, and in a sympathetic light for the people still there. That’s the very reason the PR story was put out there.
 

WeePat

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
10,884
Supports
Chelsea
And this is why it reads like unfiltered PR. Because it is. You’ve latched onto a story that rationalises things in a negative light for the person being kicked out, and in a sympathetic light for the people still there. That’s the very reason the PR story was put out there.
What’s essentially happening in this thread is people are laughing and joking about the negative stories that paint the new owners as lumbering idiots and then dismissing the positive stories as blatant unfiltered PR.
 

Telsim

Full Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2021
Messages
1,420
From all the information that has come out since, it seems Tuchel was indeed on borrowed time and Boehly had planned to get rid of him sooner rather than later. The awful performances just accelerated the process. Falling out with clubs seems to be a trend with the German now, similar to Conte in that regard.

But then why spend so much money on Tuchel's targets? We obviously don't know exactly how bad it had gotten inside the dressing room and the club, but I still think getting rid of him was shortsighted. He is a good manager and did a lot for Chelsea. And Potter, while certainly impressing at Brighton, is still largely unproven. Having to juggle club politics, dressing room full of egos, and multiple tournaments is a different beast than coaching Brighton.
 

Synco

Lucio's #1 Fan
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,122
What’s essentially happening in this thread is people are laughing and joking about the negative stories that paint the new owners as lumbering idiots and then dismissing the positive stories as blatant unfiltered PR.
Dunno if that's about me, but if so I don't think it's fair:
Tuchel didn't manage to do find that formula consistently with this squad, things even getting worse over time*. Will be interesting to see if Potter can get more out of Chelsea's midfield/attacking options.
I think between the lines you can see how it fell apart, and why Boehly etc. chose to continue with Potter.
What I can make out is that the expectations for a professional cooperation were wildly incompatible, which lead to personal conflicts as well. Makes sense for Boehly & Co. to get their own guy in then, as they seem to have a pretty clear-cut idea of what they're going for.
 

DJ_21

Full Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
2,511
Location
Manchester
And to think some people wanted him after rangnick. This is the reason the club didn’t go for him because he’s a bit like mourinho, toxic, he’ll fall out with pretty much anyone.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
13,189
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
According to a report in the BILD, Tuchel and his team had some moments with Boehly and Eghbali described as "slapstick" - in one meeting, Boehly presented his idea of a team lineup with a 4-4-3 formation (genius!)
I think we should take that with a bit of salt. When things were coming to an end for him at Dortmund one or two journalists were telling stories about how Watzke is basically an evil dictator and poor Tuchel got in his way. I think he has a well connected agent. And changing the discussion to "lol, another dumb American" is better than talking about why the team didn't get good results anymore.

He didn't fall out with Mainz, he simply took them as far as he could.
You mean when he told them he was quitting out of the blue and the club then made him sit out an entire season? When the club president complained about Tuchel's behavior in the press? That kind of amicable split? :wenger:
 
Last edited:

Brwned

Have you ever been in love before?
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
50,425
What’s essentially happening in this thread is people are laughing and joking about the negative stories that paint the new owners as lumbering idiots and then dismissing the positive stories as blatant unfiltered PR.
In other words, football fans being football fans and interpreting the news within the context of their allegiances. The only strange thing about this is a Chelsea fan repeating that same PR story over and over again on a United forum and not expecting to be ridiculed for it, believing it so deeply that he can’t even see how it appears.

The reality is United fans are entertaining the premise that Boehly is acting like a bumbling idiot because it’s amusing. It’s an opportunity to poke fun at rival fans. Few people take it any more seriously than that. They really don’t care whether it’s wholly or partially untrue, that’s not the point of it. Which is what makes the alternative perspective, and the seriousness with which it’s presented, all the more comical.
 

phelans shorts

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
25,058
Location
Gaz. Is a Mewling Quim.
What’s essentially happening in this thread is people are laughing and joking about the negative stories that paint the new owners as lumbering idiots and then dismissing the positive stories as blatant unfiltered PR.
Without a shred of evidence what else can people do?

All we know for a fact is that since buying Chelsea there’s been a transfer window that made Uniteds ak47 in the dark approach look competent and the manager who recommended 300 million pounds worth of players has been sacked after 6 games for a manager who has a totally different style. Those who want him to be a success will believe all the positive stories and the rest of us who want Chelsea to fail will make jokes about how bad it’s been, and ignore any potential extraneous factors.
 

Suv666

Full Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
7,388
I hope the new Chelsea owner is a clown but find it hard to believe with Tuchel's history of being a cnut. More likely, Tuchel was being his usual self than Bohely being the American Mr Bean.
 

Synco

Lucio's #1 Fan
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,122
No not you. You’ve been pretty measured in what you’ve been saying. Enjoy reading your posts.
I find it obvious leaked infos from both sides have to be taken with a grain of salt. Some will be true, some half-true, but you can bet there's context & a few inconvenient facts missing in each narrative.

The Athletic was very smart in this, publishing gossip from both sides and selling it as impartial journalism :D
 
Last edited:

UweBein

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
3,475
Location
Köln
Supports
Chelsea
He might be a difficult personality. But which of the clubs he left or was made to leave improved after his departure?
 

Brwned

Have you ever been in love before?
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
50,425
I hope the new Chelsea owner is a clown but find it hard to believe with Tuchel's history of being a cnut. More likely, Tuchel was being his usual self than Bohely being the American Mr Bean.
Why does it have to an either/or scenario, where only the extremes are possible? Why can’t it just be the case that on the one hand Tuchel is an unpleasant person to work with, that unpleasantness becomes more intolerable when the team isn’t winning, and there’s questions about his suitability for a long-term “project”. While on the other hand, the new owner was much too trigger happy in sacking the football men, was much too keen on involving himself in the day-to-day decisions on a subject he knows little about, and was so keen to make a big impression in public that he embarked on a scattergun approach to transfers that fits neither his (non-existent) sporting director’s or current manager’s preferences, and repeatedly left Chelsea looking silly?
 

WeePat

Full Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
10,884
Supports
Chelsea
In other words, football fans being football fans and interpreting the news within the context of their allegiances. The only strange thing about this is a Chelsea fan repeating that same PR story over and over again on a United forum and not expecting to be ridiculed for it, believing it so deeply that he can’t even see how it appears.

The reality is United fans are entertaining the premise that Boehly is acting like a bumbling idiot because it’s amusing. It’s an opportunity to poke fun at rival fans. Few people take it any more seriously than that. They really don’t care whether it’s wholly or partially untrue, that’s not the point of it. Which is what makes the alternative perspective, and the seriousness with which it’s presented, all the more comical.

Without a shred of evidence what else can people do?

All we know for a fact is that since buying Chelsea there’s been a transfer window that made Uniteds ak47 in the dark approach look competent and the manager who recommended 300 million pounds worth of players has been sacked after 6 games for a manager who has a totally different style. Those who want him to be a success will believe all the positive stories and the rest of us who want Chelsea to fail will make jokes about how bad it’s been, and ignore any potential extraneous factors.
Yeah I hear you both. I really don’t mind it either. I understand the context you’re talking about. Just pointing out that that’s what’s happening, that people are dismissing Boehly PR as unworthy of discussion whilst fully indulging in the Tuchel PR.
 

Rnd898

Full Member
Joined
May 7, 2022
Messages
228
Supports
Chelsea
He might be a difficult personality. But which of the clubs he left or was made to leave improved after his departure?
I'd probably go with none having improved, but I'd also say none have been any weaker either. Mainz are still a mid-table Bundesliga side, Dortmund have stayed at roughly the same level for the last five years under a few different manages in the post-Tuchel era and PSG have been pretty much the same as well. At least that's what the league forms are telling us.

In cup competitions on the other hand I'd argue every team have been worse after Tuchel's departure. Remains to be seen whether that's the case at Chelsea too, but one thing's for sure is that the bar is set very high because the cups were definitely the highlights of Tuchel's Chelsea career.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
4,509
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
I'd probably go with none having improved, but I'd also say none have been any weaker either. Mainz are still a mid-table Bundesliga side, Dortmund have stayed at roughly the same level for the last five years under a few different manages in the post-Tuchel era and PSG have been pretty much the same as well. At least that's what the league forms are telling us.

In cup competitions on the other hand I'd argue every team have been worse after Tuchel's departure. Remains to be seen whether that's the case at Chelsea too, but one thing's for sure is that the bar is set very high because the cups were definitely the highlights of Tuchel's Chelsea career.
This isn't true. Tuchel's Dortmund is still the best Dortmund iteration since Klopp left. If he wasn't going up against Pep's Bayern and continued further on he would've won the league once or twice given Bayern had bad year under Kovac and last season under Nagelsmann.

Favre had a good season when they chocked towards the end, Bayern won by 2 points under Kovac, but other than that it's been underwhelming.
 

phelans shorts

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
25,058
Location
Gaz. Is a Mewling Quim.
Yeah I hear you both. I really don’t mind it either. I understand the context you’re talking about. Just pointing out that that’s what’s happening, that people are dismissing Boehly PR as unworthy of discussion whilst fully indulging in the Tuchel PR.
To be fair, I don’t buy the Tuchel PR at all either, I think he’s a good not great manager who probably did deserve to go given his quotes dating back to pre season.
 

SirReginald

Full Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
1,175
Supports
Chelsea
To be fair, I don’t buy the Tuchel PR at all either, I think he’s a good not great manager who probably did deserve to go given his quotes dating back to pre season.
Well at least on here he went from being seen as an “over rated” manager to world class overnight all because he was fired. I’ve said it plenty of times, I love him but he deserved it for half a year of poor performances. I get the club wasnt in the best place but it’s continued into this season and doesn’t appear to be halting anytime soon. It was completely performance based.
 

phelans shorts

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
25,058
Location
Gaz. Is a Mewling Quim.
Well at least on here he went from being seen as an “over rated” manager to world class overnight all because he was fired. I’ve said it plenty of times, I love him but he deserved it for half a year of poor performances. I get the club wasnt in the best place but it’s continued into this season and doesn’t appear to be halting anytime soon. It was completely performance based.
Yeah, the love in on here was quite ridiculous. Sure winning the Champions League deserves a lot of respect but it wasn’t afforded to Di Matteo (he’s just the most prominent example I can think of, it’s not an anti-Chelsea thing). Talk of him being on a level with Klopp and Pep was frankly ridiculous.

He’ll now go off to another level below top club (Sevilla job looks like it’ll be up soon) and be in his element until he argues with them. It’s hard to knock the sacking at all
 

Brwned

Have you ever been in love before?
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
50,425
Well at least on here he went from being seen as an “over rated” manager to world class overnight all because he was fired.
Yeah that never happened. Just read the first few posts here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/thoughts-on-tuchel-as-a-potential-united-manager.469314/

Or consider the basic premise of this:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/who-you-rate-the-highest-pep-klopp-or-tuchel.465675/

There is no such thing as an identifiable caf consensus. A lot of people thought Tuchel was a tactical genius. A lot of people thought he played turgid football and was living off the CL win. A lot of people thought he was an arsehole. Some thought all three.

This idea that the caf at one point thought this thing and now it thinks this is just your own perception, and what you chose to pay attention to. Most of the time people’s opinions don’t change that much, it’s just different voices are louder at different times.

It seemed ridiculous to me that Tuchel was compared to Klopp or Guardiola. So ridiculous that it wasn’t even worth entertaining the discussion. That applies to a lot of people and a lot of discussions. It’s weird that people think the caf thinks just one thing, when the only reason it exists is because people like disagreeing with each other on minute details.
 
X