Tifo Football: Is Manchester United’s Lack of Success Finally Impacting Their Finances?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by #07, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. Oct 7, 2019
    #41

    ExecutionerWasp001 Full Member

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    I love watching Utd (maybe not so much at the moment) & football in general. I couldn't though countenance us being owned by the Saudi's or any other oppressive regime. In my opinion you can't differentiate. If you know your owners are dirty & you willingly put money into their pockets then you are complicit.
  2. Oct 7, 2019
    #42

    Jim Beam The Joker

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    Aye, even in terms of star players or those who have marketing power, you could argue Pogba is the only one for most kids.

    Doubt there are many with Fred on the back running around.

    I mean, buying players because of their marketability is dumb. I doubt very much Salah, Mane or Firmino had much or any before they went to Liverpool. And that changed with their performances.
    Success is what breads profit. You can milk the brand for some time, but in the long run and with the team underperforming constantly, you will start to feel it on the money side too.
  3. Oct 7, 2019
    #43

    Denis79 Full Member

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    Woodward can say whatever he wants. Like you said underperforming will effect our economy both in tournsment bonuses and in marketing. Just idiotic to think otherwise.
  4. Oct 7, 2019
    #44

    Bastian Full Member

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    Imagine that, average wage is 160K per week.
  5. Oct 7, 2019
    #45

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    This is the issue, it seems removed but it's not. It's like all the shit going on in HK at the moment and the NBA sucking up to China because of Daryl Morey's tweet (if you haven't seen what's going on it shameful). Football is becoming a cash cow to be milked for the super rich. It would be really tough to me to process if the Saudis did take over and I really hope it doesn't happen because as much as I want to be winning things and not going through this quagmire of crap that we're in, the romance of United will be dead for me.
  6. Oct 7, 2019
    #46

    fergiesarmy1 Full Member

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    What was the average wage of Rochdale and AZ neither of who they could beat?
  7. Oct 7, 2019
    #47

    Bastian Full Member

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    Forget those teams, I wonder what the average wage is at Liverpool, Juventus, Bayern. And then imagine which of our players they'd honestly welcome.
  8. Oct 7, 2019
    #48

    edcunited1878 Full Member

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    Manchester United make more than enough money to be successful. Period.

    It's how they have used that money and the choices made by those who control said money (i.e. Woodward, Judge, etc.) who have fecked everything beyond belief. One bad year is understandable. But this has happened multiple years in addition to multiple managers, playing styles and bloated wages.
  9. Oct 7, 2019
    #49

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    might be wrong but on this point. I work across from Softbank regularly and it's not that he can't allocate capital to the Vision fund II, by all accounts he wants to, but pressure not to include him has come from the bigger tech companies in the US that have been targeted for capital due to the Khashoggi murder. That was a huge clusterfeck for Softbank at the time as the majority of fund I was Saudi money and one they're keen to avoid a repeat of, especially with all the recent performance news on We.
  10. Oct 7, 2019
    #50

    fergiesarmy1 Full Member

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    6 of our entire squad would be in demand (one of which is martial who needs to buck up, seriously think he is taking the piss with this “injury” now), 3 of which joined in the summer. Does not say anything good about the club.
  11. Oct 7, 2019
    #51

    spontaneus1 Hamster, damn!

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    Actually one of the lowest in the league interestingly.
  12. Oct 8, 2019
    #52

    RUCK4444 New Member

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    Of course everybody has their own opinions and are rightly entitled to decide what they deem acceptable. For me the romance of the club is currently being eroded massively anyway, we are becoming a laughing stock both on and off the field. When I think of United or if I had to choose one word to describe United it would be 'winners.' To win and die before accepting mediocrity.

    Football has moved on, it's full of powerful and shady owners that very few people would agree morally with. But every walk of life and every industry has links to 'bad' or morally questionable people/regimes.

    It wouldn't exactly fill me with joy if it happened but at the moment it would absolutely be the very best thing that could happen to United both economically and from a football perspective.
    The middle eastern owners use the brand to increase their profile etc which sticks in the throat, but what real harm does that do. Are they going to try to persuade people around to their way of thinking by owning United? Of course not! Since when does anybody use football as a moral compass for anything.

    It would instantly rid us of the horror show that is Ed Woodward and stop the Glazers sucking us dry. It would be worth it just to see them kick these clowns out of the club.

    The value of the club is so much that it takes something the size of the Saudi's to afford the takeover. Which leaves very few alternatives... unless everybody is willing to wait another 10 years so our value is feck all and somebody like Mike Ashley takes over to complete our transition into the history books as far as 'big clubs' are concerned. Right now it's the only way out of this mess that I can see, we are rotten from the top.
  13. Oct 8, 2019
    #53

    RUCK4444 New Member

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    I'm sorry but when I look forward to watching United either at OT or sat in front of the TV the very feckin' last thing on my mind is political issues in Hong Kong or the moral compass of the Saudi Regime.

    Football is a sport, ultimately entertainment, it's supposed to be an escape from the negatives in life. I refuse to believe that the Saudi's owning us worsens anything on any level. People who are precious enough to worry about such things should think before buying an iPhone, fueling their cars, buying their clothes (and almost anything else mass produced that every one of us owns, because EVERYTHING on some level has a shady connection or link if you want to look hard enough.)
    That's not to say I think that's ok, but it's feckin' life, it's the shitshow that mankind have created - unfortunately football the game we love is far from immune.
  14. Oct 8, 2019
    #54

    elmo Can never have too many Eevees

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    I though it's a permanent cut
  15. Oct 8, 2019
    #55

    Kijima New Member

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    Unfortunately it's 30%;
    at the moment we get around £79m a year (£78,813m in 2019, £79.015m in 2018) so looking at approximately £23.5m reduction.
    Doom scenario, but provisions contained for 50% reduction, plus option then kicks in for Adidas to terminate giving one years notice.
    Think It'd be interesting whether our deals with secondary partners have similar provisions. Could be felt more than is apparent if so.

    Page 38 among others,
    https://ir.manutd.com/~/media/Files/M/Manutd-IR/documents/2019-mu-plc-form-20-f.pdf

    --------
    Inclusive of Broadcasting revenue, prize money and Matchday revenue, our combined Broadcasting and Matchday revenue from participation in European competitions was £93.1 million, £45.9 million and £48.5 million for each of the years ended 30 June 2019, 2018 and 2017, respectively.


    That'll be the big kicker, assuming stay up but fall outside of Euro places. CL money has gone up with the new TV deal, and obviously a revenue stream our rivals will be benefiting from at our expense. Interesting looking at Swissramble's breakdown of our finances too that there's a new UEFA coefficient component to the payment based on the last 10 years. (Newbie so can't link but:)

    #MUFC also benefited from a new UEFA coefficient payment (based on performances over 10 years), as they received €31m for this element (the 5th highest in the Champions League), compared to #MCFC €24m, #LFC €23m and #THFC €16m.
    https://twitter.com/SwissRamble

    Obviously our coefficient's going to decrease so that'll drop over time.
    ---------

    (ii) Amounts included in trade payables Trade payables include transfer fees and other associated costs in relation to the acquisition of registrations of £187,544,000 (2018: £258,316,000) of which £77,438,000 (2018: £102,067,000) is due after more than one year. Of the amount due after more than one year, £59,889,000 (2018: £65,495,000) is expected to be paid between 1 and 2 years, and the balance of £17,549,000 (2018: £36,572,000) is expected to be paid between 2 and 5 years.
    (ii) Amounts included in trade receivables Net trade receivables include transfer fees receivable from other football clubs of £18,270,000 (2018: £29,214,000) of which £9,889,000 (2018: £4,724,000) is receivable after more than one year.

    Overall though the above transfer debt is still a concern too, it's covered by the £307m in cash in bank, but it's still a concern.
  16. Oct 8, 2019
    #56

    Kijima New Member

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    It's not permanent

    In the event of a reduction in any year due to the failure to participate in the Champions League for two or more consecutive seasons, the payments revert back to the original terms upon the men’s first team participating again in the Champions League.
    Page 39
    https://ir.manutd.com/~/media/Files/M/Manutd-IR/documents/2019-mu-plc-form-20-f.pdf
  17. Oct 8, 2019
    #57

    gajender Full Member

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    It's a permanent cut of 30% but it's spread over the remaining contract length so it not much to worry about unless we continuosly fail to qualify .
  18. Oct 8, 2019
    #58

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    Sadly I do agree with this bit. I just hope there's an alternative if there is a sale.

    Each to their own - FYI the HK reference was just an example of money vs Human rights in sports, not something that is specific to this conversation.
  19. Oct 8, 2019
    #59

    Denis79 Full Member

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    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...world/middleeast/un-yemen-war-crimes.amp.html

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.insider.com/the-murder-of-jamal-khashoggi-2019-10

    https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/01/30/saudi-arabia-10-reasons-why-women-flee

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...oppressive-era-witnessed-190606091245089.html

    Sadly I can make a very long list on how the Saudi leadership violates even the most basic human rights and many other international laws. Yes there is a lot of evil everywhere in the world but don't call people precious because they wouldn't want United to be affiliated with these murderous scum.
  20. Oct 8, 2019
    #60

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    The deal was for a minimum of £75m a year with extra earned dependent on sales so we've been outperforming the baseline it looks like despite the turmoil. With the deal being 5 years old and City's being worth £65m a year now I'm sure Woody can renegotiate here. I mean if they did cancel we'd get a better deal elsewhere I'm sure.
  21. Oct 8, 2019
    #61

    Suedesi Full Member

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    I think there's animosity from Silicon Valley investors towards SoftBank for buying their way into new companies at prices that made rival VC scoff. There's this legendary video of Bill Gurley of Benchmark Capital effectively accusing SoftBank of using capital as a weapon. Don't think there's many startup tech companies that are refusing SoftBank investing due to Khashoggi's murder, I just highly doubt that.

    PS What's your role by the way, it would be funny if we crossed paths somehow in real life. (feel free to PM).
  22. Oct 8, 2019
    #62

    Suedesi Full Member

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    Good stuff, someone promote @Kijima
  23. Oct 8, 2019
    #63

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    No I meant Tech companies blocking Saudi investment into Vision fund II, there is definitely still a lot of appetite from startups for the capital.
  24. Oct 8, 2019
    #64

    Suedesi Full Member

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    How would tech companies block Saudi Investment into Vision Fund II? Tech companies don't interface directly with MBS/Saudis, they interface with SoftBank and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they would have no say in who SoftBank raises capital from. SoftBank has done 20+ deals post Khashoggi news emerged with little difficulty or pushback.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  25. Oct 8, 2019
    #65

    Suedesi Full Member

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    Business Quietly Returns to Saudi Arabia After Khashoggi’s Murder

    Google, JPMorgan Chase and SoftBank are among the businesses that have kept SA as a partner (after Khashoggi).

    "We thought long and hard, and concluded that the best course of action was to go forward," Adam Aron, the CEO of AMC the movie theater giant with ambitious expansion plans for dozens of cinemas there said.

    "It's the right thing to do for the people of SA," he said last month. "They have been deprived of going to the movies for decades."

    There's American business philosophy for you - we're providing a value for the people, so that's why we're going in. Sure there's plenty of $$$ in the process, but that's secondary.

    Oh and investors snapped up $100b of bonds from the Saudis and Google has a major data center in the works. And everyobody is falling backwards to get a piece of lucrative Aramco IPO.



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    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  26. Oct 8, 2019
    #66

    shamans Hoser

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    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    Some of you assume any rich Saudi is associated with the kingdom and the decisions it takes.

    Btw isnt it weird wed take such a stance for Saudi ownership but not against the people who have put saudis in this position? (Western powers who back them as prime allies )

    I really don't care who owns us. Russian mafia or qatari prince. Pump the money in
  27. Oct 8, 2019
    #67

    Suedesi Full Member

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    You misread my comment. I just said it's unlikely we get a Saudi buyout, not that I was explicitly against it. If MBS' money is good for Amazon, Apple, Google, Facebook, JPM, SoftBank etc, it's good for United.
  28. Oct 8, 2019
    #68

    shamans Hoser

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    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    Yeah fair enough. Just find it funny people take this "bold stance" when we're all consuming dirty money elsewhere
  29. Oct 8, 2019
    #69

    djembatheking Full Member

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    You can still watch and support United without putting money in their pockets , I do now .
  30. Oct 8, 2019
    #70

    SaintMuppet New Member

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    It’s not really just about money though is it? The club needs a large injection of intelligence and planning too.

    I don’t know many Saudi billionaires who have divorced themselves from the regime but find me one and I might change my opinion.
  31. Oct 8, 2019
    #71

    shamans Hoser

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    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    You won't be able to divorce a lot of things from the regime then. Plenty of things most of us support, support them as well.

    Anyway, of the top of my head Waleed Bin Talal comes to mind. He's not saint (and which billionaire is) but he's not MBS level.
  32. Oct 9, 2019
    #72

    RUCK4444 New Member

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    No I get it, I know they do some horrendous things.

    The thing is, every country does in some form or another.

    I could list just as many atrocities from the US or China or Russia. Most club owners come from these countries.

    My point is that there is never room for sentiment in business, especially the business of entertainment/sport. Where you either keep up or get left behind.

    If we discount every country that committed atrocities we would be sat here praying a billionaire from Greenland swoops in... oh wait a quick google search :- https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/1999/sep/13/4
  33. Oct 9, 2019
    #73

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    There's a pretty big difference between an owner coming from a country and an owner ruling or being a part of the political establishment of a country and using a club as a way of laundering their image on the global stage.
  34. Oct 9, 2019
    #74

    RUCK4444 New Member

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    Is it really? I doubt very much they care greatly about their image on the global stage, regarding relations with other countries I’m sure most countries need them more they need anybody else.

    I mean will anybody really turn a blind eye to their atrocities all of a sudden if they owned United. Of course not.

    I’m not trying to down play what goes on over there, it’s a disgrace. I just don’t see many options out of this mess and I feel people make a much larger issue out of this than it needs to be.

    We need somebody to come in and totally gut the whole management and hierarchy including Ed. Then that owner needs to have a determination to get to the very top again.

    Most businessmen will look at United as a cash cow, the same as the Glazers have.

    For the size of our club and in order to compete with the new age ‘big’ clubs we need this type of owner (admittedly not one with their human rights record but can you name one?)
  35. Oct 9, 2019
    #75

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    It is really. City's owners have publicly said, in as much words, that they bought them for soft power reasons.

    "There is an appreciation of the association the club have with Abu Dhabi that we hold very dearly," Khaldoon, with calm, steady conviction, explained. "There is almost a personification of the club with the values we hold as Abu Dhabi, as Sheikh Mansour. These are loyalty, commitment, discipline, long-term thinking, respect, appreciation of history."

    "We are acknowledging that how we are handling this project is telling a lot to the world about how we are," Khaldoon said. "The UAE is different from other Arab countries. People think the Arab world is one, but it is not. This is showing the world the true essence of who Abu Dhabi is and what Abu Dhabi is about. That is something new, something we didn't really plan for."
  36. Oct 9, 2019
    #76

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    So how come that Glazers are allowing Ed and Ole to stay. I always thought that when they start losing money, they will become more involved and more ruthless. And they lost serious money this year
  37. Oct 9, 2019
    #77

    The Boy Full Member

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    I love and rate Tifo videos but this one is missing one huge bit of context and that's the size of your fanbase compared to other clubs, in other words if you're a business associated with Man Utd how many potential customers does that give you access to?

    The last figures for this were done in 2013 it was commissioned by the club and put your global fan base at 659 million, that is a huge number and though the company that did the research stood by the figure a lot of other people questioned it. You can read about it here:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21478857#targetText=But the statement that it,world - is still quite staggering.

    In 2018 a company called Newton Insight did a study of social media influence among PL clubs to see who had the greatest reach, again very easy to sell to potential sponsors

    • Your FB following is 26 million bigger than the closest rival, Chelsea
    • 30% of all premier league fans on social networks are Man Utd fans
    • On twitter in 2017 your growth rate was 71% far bigger than every other club other than Huddersfield (just promoted)
    • The rate of growth on Weibo (3 times bigger than FB in China) is the biggest and 5 times bigger than City's in 2017
    • Across all channels, United have almost twice as many fans and almost twice as much fan engagement as any other Premier League club
    While Ed can say this to potential investors they are not going anywhere, you basically give businesses access to more potential customers than any other club in England by a mile.

    EDIT I took the Newton Insight figures from a Telegraph article, but it turns out theyve done more up to date studies the latest for 2019 is here https://www.newtoninsight.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/newton_insight_social_network_.pdf You are still miles ahead!
  38. Oct 9, 2019
    #78

    Lentwood Full Member

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    I’ve been trying to explain this for a while - we just don’t have the cash some of the toxic Twitter trolls believe we have

    People think we can go out and spend £200m net every summer - it’s so far from the reality given we’ve pissed away nearly £2.5BN in transfer fees and wages since SAF left
  39. Oct 9, 2019
    #79

    RUCK4444 New Member

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    OK fair enough there is that side of soft power to it but what’s worse than that is a bunch of clueless leaches sucking the life and success out of one of the very biggest clubs in world football.

    If anything in my opinion it goes some way to putting the spotlight on them as a regime the more ties they have to Westernised brands. It could marginally help to improve things there. United make headlines, the papers would be waiting for reasons to slate them and they would know that - so any soft power would be hindered by further atrocities.

    So long as they don’t promote their behaviour through United, which of course they won’t as there would be riots, then I’m sure fans can accept that United is still its own established brand which in no way stands for the beliefs of the Saudi Regime.

    It’s hugely different to City’s takeover, we are established as one of the worlds biggest clubs with huge history.
    City are creating their history and status through a similar regime, with none of the history.

    Do you remember anybody really talking about City’s owners human rights issues when their takeover was happening?
    No, people only talked about how rich they were.

    It’s a much of a muchness.
  40. Oct 12, 2019
    #80

    Denis79 Full Member

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    I get your point but we would directly be owned by the ruling Saudi family, the people who actually give the orders to commit these atrocities. Talk was that the Crown Prince himself would buy us, that's like Kim Jong Un owning us.

    I love United but not so much that I can overlook torture, rape and murder just for some trophies in a cabinet.