Doesnt explain why we're just as bad when he isnt playing. The same video could be made for Fred and his problems
Tifo IRL: The Real Problem with Manchester United's Midfield
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I don't see anything incorrect in what the video says.
But when you consider the times Matic drops into the back three (which as when McTominay does it is a deliberate structural choice) and the lack of positive effect we see from that as a result of our midfield then becoming isolated, as well as the fact that Fred puts himself in sub-optimal position relatively often as well, to my mind that plays into the now standard complaint about our coaching. The correct positions to take up (whether for Fred/McTominay/Matic or the players around them who have to react to them dropping deeper) when we're building from the back is exactly the sort of thing that develops on the training ground, rather than being some sort of innate quality McTominay should possess.
The other point is that because McTominay plays as an RCM, any positional issues on his part particularly exacerbate the issues our RB has on the ball. AWB's technical limitations mean he will always be a target for the opposition in those sort of areas but it becomes harder again for him if the CM on his inside isn't providing a passing option. Whereas Shaw at LB is a lot less vulnerable in that regard.
But when you consider the times Matic drops into the back three (which as when McTominay does it is a deliberate structural choice) and the lack of positive effect we see from that as a result of our midfield then becoming isolated, as well as the fact that Fred puts himself in sub-optimal position relatively often as well, to my mind that plays into the now standard complaint about our coaching. The correct positions to take up (whether for Fred/McTominay/Matic or the players around them who have to react to them dropping deeper) when we're building from the back is exactly the sort of thing that develops on the training ground, rather than being some sort of innate quality McTominay should possess.
The other point is that because McTominay plays as an RCM, any positional issues on his part particularly exacerbate the issues our RB has on the ball. AWB's technical limitations mean he will always be a target for the opposition in those sort of areas but it becomes harder again for him if the CM on his inside isn't providing a passing option. Whereas Shaw at LB is a lot less vulnerable in that regard.
The point is if he genuinely understood the intricacies he wouldn't be making videos on youtube, he'd be employed by a football club as a scout/analyst/coach. Dressing up simple observations with floral language doesn't equal insight.
He is targeted for the same amount of passes per 90 mins as Fred, and more progressive passes per 90. Part of that is probably Fred being deeper and playing the pass to him. McTominay also dribbles past players more often and wins more fouls. Fred averages 5.18 progressive passes to McTominay's 4.87 and with a further distance too.
I'm not saying that this should be our starting midfield but I do think signing a proper CDM like Rice will stop him playing too deep and allow him to be a CM that focuses on getting forward than being defensive.
Fred and Mctominay causes him to be too defensive.
We most call him a box to box midfielder and our best performances of him that we value is not what he has done in the deeper end of the pitch (he is okay at it but nothing amazing) - it is what he does on the attacking side of the pitch when he scores a goal for us & even recently I've seen him make some better defence cutting passes too that have reached Ronaldo.
The CDM that allows us to play a 433 or a 4231 with one CDM sitting and shielding the CB'S should be the player that allows players like Mctominay and Pogba not to be as deep as seen a lot these days.
Fred and Mctominay causes him to be too defensive.
We most call him a box to box midfielder and our best performances of him that we value is not what he has done in the deeper end of the pitch (he is okay at it but nothing amazing) - it is what he does on the attacking side of the pitch when he scores a goal for us & even recently I've seen him make some better defence cutting passes too that have reached Ronaldo.
The CDM that allows us to play a 433 or a 4231 with one CDM sitting and shielding the CB'S should be the player that allows players like Mctominay and Pogba not to be as deep as seen a lot these days.
It's a nice video, I think the main conclusions (McTominay hiding from the ball because he's not comfortable playing that DM position) are pretty common knowledge on this forum but maybe more of a fresh news for people not that into United day in day out.
He's a decent midfielder in terms of technical skills, passing etc, but somehow looks much better when closer to the right. To me he looks most natural in RCB position, I've seen him splitting defenses with his passing and being strong defensively, simply more effective when he's being told exactly what to do and stay in one position. In midfield you need more of an instinct and awareness that I think he doesn't possess. Same applies to Pogba tbh.
He's a decent midfielder in terms of technical skills, passing etc, but somehow looks much better when closer to the right. To me he looks most natural in RCB position, I've seen him splitting defenses with his passing and being strong defensively, simply more effective when he's being told exactly what to do and stay in one position. In midfield you need more of an instinct and awareness that I think he doesn't possess. Same applies to Pogba tbh.
Neither is showing for the ball? I don't see why such a basic thing can't be grasped by a professional footballers who plays in CM.
The bigger issue is probably that he's a shit passer but it is odd that he doesn't show for it better. He's been here for long enough.
It is something Fred does as well, I think there was a few clips of him during the Southampton game. Which sort of makes it a pretty big problem when they play together.
Matic tends to drop very deep between our CBs, but we end up completely vacating the whole central midfield area. We're just a very weird team.
I think the video makes a good point about Mctominay's most effective areas, around the area of the box you generally see some smart play and good runs.
Certainly interesting. Maybe he just passes to players close to him so much I don't notice unless he's doing it badly? Not sure. I think he'd be adequate enough with a better manager thoughSometimes seems that way I agree but the stats say he had the best pass success rate last year. Just sharing as I found it interesting...
Put them in the Ajax team and they will look good after a couple of months. Why should Matic drop into midfield? He is taking a player out of the play. Maguire and Lindelof don't need any midfield players to drop into the CB position for them to play. They can pass on their own.It is something Fred does as well, I think there was a few clips of him during the Southampton game. Which sort of makes it a pretty big problem when they play together.
Matic tends to drop very deep between our CBs, but we end up completely vacating the whole central midfield area. We're just a very weird team.
I think the video makes a good point about Mctominay's most effective areas, around the area of the box you generally see some smart play and good runs.
How does that work for any industry? The only people who have any insight, or skills and knowledge, applicable for said industry are all employed into roles within it? Everyone else knows nothing?
I understand the idea behind it, just as is pointed out in the video for Mctominay but we don't organise in a way to make use of it. Like you say, we just end up with less options in midfield so it ends up being annoying to watch.
Thats a coaching problem with shape in defending transitions as opposed to a personnel thing. Watch how Pep sets his teams up and he hardly is out there using a bunch of workhorse grafters in midfield. But they have a tremendous shape so that if they lose the ball in the box they can immediately win the ball back or it takes 4 perfect passes in a row to break on them.
Not wanting to argue with your view but my feeling is, that it is bit more complex than you make it look. I mean, moving on the pitch effects the space on the pitch, if all midfielders make themselves available by moving around the whole team can lose its structure. It is some sort of balance that you have to find which, in McTominays case is probably the biggest issue as he isn't used to that sort of thinking. I am not arguing that we should expect certain abilities from an academy graduate but he is playing at the highest level, just a few steps in the wrong direction can lead to bad results.
Again, don't want to say you are wrong or something I just think, that simplifying will not really get us anywhere when overdone.
I guess it isn't a deliberate move from Matic or whoever because they think the CBs need support. A DM dropping in between the CBs in Built-up is a pretty common theme in world football for quite some time (many years). It enables the CB to position themselves further apart which on the other hand enables the fullbacks to push up. If many players push up the opposition team most of the time will drop off a bit which takes off steam from any potential press and yadda yadda yadda. The move itself isn't the issue at all, it is the execution.
The issue with Matic isn't that he does that move so prominently, the issue is that he takes absolutely forever to get back into midfield which then isolates the other midfielder. Add to that that our front-three has a tendency to make runs into space as soon as we win the ball (I guess because 'we want to play fast and direct attacking football') and that Bruno often sees himself more as part of the front-three than the midfield three, you have all the makings for the perfect f*ck-up. That is the issue, some moves only work if the whole team acts accordingly. If you play a patient built-up play, Matic isn't needed to very quickly back in midfield. Other players can support the midfield as well when a midfielder drops into defence, an attacker could drop into the midfield and so on.
For all those discussing if "cover shadow" is just an internet term, and why some guy is just posting stuff online instead of being employed somewhere: https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/07/01/zonal-marking-zonal-coverage/
A now seven years old article featuring that term, posted by some guy blogging random nonsense about football (obviously must have been that, as he was not employed at a football club, right?)
Well... the author is Rene Maric, who today is assistant coach at Dortmund (moved there together with Rose from Gladbach) and was at first working in professional football as a freelance analyst by Thomas Tuchel exactly because he wrote such articles.
A now seven years old article featuring that term, posted by some guy blogging random nonsense about football (obviously must have been that, as he was not employed at a football club, right?)
Well... the author is Rene Maric, who today is assistant coach at Dortmund (moved there together with Rose from Gladbach) and was at first working in professional football as a freelance analyst by Thomas Tuchel exactly because he wrote such articles.
You're right. It's no surprise he was decent when we finished the season in 18/19, when we were abysmal as a team but he performed well in a 4-3-3 next to Fred and Pogba. Poor man's Jordan Henderson.
Yeah for sure but I think that reflects his role in the team. He's usually the one distributing the ball to Bruno/Pogba and they're the ones looking for the killer passes.
I also agree he isn't likely to improve under a new manager. Fred's best attribute is moving the ball around the midfield, similar I suppose to VdB but a bit more aggressive defensively.
Doesn't that rather refer to where he's useful when United are in possession? I.e., he's poor further back on the patch in build-up, but not necessarily when defending.
Coaching this cleverness into players is something people underestimate. I was reading analysis of Ajax's game vs. Dortmund, and the author was probably right in thinking that everything they observed had really been drilled into Ajax's players. And I found myself wondering how the hell do you drill players that way. That's where the magic really happens, and why being a good analyst doesn't suggest you could be a good coach.
As @stefan92 pointed out, this is exactly what happened to Rene Maric: he was only a lower league coach in Austria, but top German coaches read his contributions to the Spielverlagerung blog and picked him up, and now he's Marco Rose's trusted sidekick. The competition is fierce in that area though, so there are many more good analysts than jobs.
Plus football is very conservative in terms of hiring - see the many ex-players that are instantly hired into coaching/assistant positions without necessarily having the analytical or coaching skills and acumen to translate whatever they could do as players into useful coaching input or training drills. (That's not an unsubtle dig at United; it's literally all over football.)
I've not watched the video in the OP but I have my own theory. And it isn't pinning the blame on either player as, judging by the comments, I'm guessing the video does with McTominay.
The guys on BT nailed it for me when discussing the problems and highlighting it Vs Atalanta. Ole basically splits the team into attack and defence and there is a huge space between the back 4 plus holding players and our attackers. They said it themselves, it doesn't matter who we buy for midfield, they'd look bad in our setup. Especially when pressed and there's no out ball or link to attack. Primarily shit coaching for me and I'll stand by that, if Fred and McTominay played for Chelsea or City, where they have options galore to progress the ball forward, they would look a lot better.
Not sure if anybody else sees it this way but I'm convinced. And, for the little it's worth, I recently saw Dani Alves saying how Fred is amazing for Brazil and the problem is United and not him. I get at Fred now and then but I still think he's hung out to dry with the way we play.
The guys on BT nailed it for me when discussing the problems and highlighting it Vs Atalanta. Ole basically splits the team into attack and defence and there is a huge space between the back 4 plus holding players and our attackers. They said it themselves, it doesn't matter who we buy for midfield, they'd look bad in our setup. Especially when pressed and there's no out ball or link to attack. Primarily shit coaching for me and I'll stand by that, if Fred and McTominay played for Chelsea or City, where they have options galore to progress the ball forward, they would look a lot better.
Not sure if anybody else sees it this way but I'm convinced. And, for the little it's worth, I recently saw Dani Alves saying how Fred is amazing for Brazil and the problem is United and not him. I get at Fred now and then but I still think he's hung out to dry with the way we play.
Absolutely agree with you, United is a broken (split as you called it) team. I also posted this in the Sancho thread as a possible part of the reason why he is not performing - he is used to having the option to safely pass it back to someone behind, and at United you sometimes see defensive players standing around and not being available for that, just waiting for the attackers to do their job.
Yeah it’s bizarre. He’s literally run past (ahead of) the ball as a teammate was trying to play it to him a few times this season. Clueless.
I've tried, but I can't see where in my post I said or implied that. I said the clip is hardly ground breaking analysis and using complex or descriptive language to describe relatively simple concepts doesn't qualify as insight. Despite evidence to the contrary in the dealings of United, football is a very merit based industry and if he had genuine insight there would be people within football after his services.
McTominay is afraid of making mistakes so he doesn't press from that position of cdm. Just compare Fred in Brazil passing well from deep compared to in midfield.
Mctominay playing in that pitch area where Kante plays means he doesn't know how to position himself, or how to receive the ball. The silent man who does know how to receive it there and pass is he who shall not be named. Lord Voldemort - Van de beek
Mctominay playing in that pitch area where Kante plays means he doesn't know how to position himself, or how to receive the ball. The silent man who does know how to receive it there and pass is he who shall not be named. Lord Voldemort - Van de beek
You realise Tifo are a respected media company who were bought by The Athletic and the guy fronting the video is just one such presenter who works for them?
Feel free to keep digging with ad hominem attacks rather than simply engage with its content all the same.
Yes I do realise that, as I subscribe to the Athletic and listen to their podcast, which I treat as the entertainment it is rather than the deeply insightful analysis you seem to think it is. I'm also aware of the meaning of the phrase ad monimem, which comments like mine about what he said rather than him as a person are obviously not.
the fact that you brough up Ajax but fail to recognize that Ajax has a midfielder dropping into the CB position while both of their CBs can pass really well makes this a bit of a weird comment.
At Ajax the DM drops into CB to allow the backs to become extra attackers. So it's not that the other CBs need it, it's to create extra attackers.
Reminds me of “attack the space”.
Lets move out of the covered shadow and let’s attack the space!
I think I just solve all the problems we have.
Lets move out of the covered shadow and let’s attack the space!
I think I just solve all the problems we have.
It probably came from rugby union to be honest - the French I think.Trequarista isn't a hipster term. It's been used for decades. Literally it's translated "three quarters". Just because you stumbled upon it during an FM save.
The Kiwis also use the term five eighth for the half backs.
There's clearly a lesson in fractions in there somewhere.
Appeal to authority.
Except in this case, the authority is some chode who figured out how to move counters on a touchscreen and upload a video to youtube.
Except in this case, the authority is some chode who figured out how to move counters on a touchscreen and upload a video to youtube.
Great thread. Can go different ways. Become a kind of terminology eye test; or a place where some of us actually learn something or …. Just a cosy spot to hide out.
Not every team would want to play like a Guardiola team. His team has the ball 80% of the time and he wants all players to press. We have Ronaldo who doesn't press and we don't keep hold of the ball as much. It's much easier to just buy a player who can stop counter attacks.
This is the most rubbish opinion I've read in a long time
What exactly is so rubbish about it? I wouldn't have put it quite the same way but I'd generally agree with most of that post.
You're saying 90% of McTominay's games are average which is just not true. Then validate your other opinion with a quote from Keane as he's some kind of Gospel.
The Wolves game in particular springs to mind.
Yet you have offered nothing at all in terms of evidence ( stats, videos etc) to refute his assertion...
I mean he is absolutely right. On eye test and statistically
The questions are: Is McT in the position Ole wants him? Or is McT at the wrong place?
- McT is, where he is supposed to be. Ole's idea does not fit the players, the players don't do what they should do.They are not drilled well enough, or it does not work. All these problems have one solution, a new manager. Why? Because Ole is the one responsible for a plan, which could be realised by the players.
- McT is not at his position so why is Ole playing him over and over again? If McT is not good enough to find his spaces, he should not be selected. If McT ignores Ole's instructions, the manager should drop him.
McT is an average premiership midfielder who would have to compete for a place in any mid-table team. Fred isn't even that. Neither of them are good enough passers, tacklers, or strikers of the ball. Nevermind about their positional play. Fergie rubber stamped McT but we can't afford the luxury of rough diamonds in the current league. Fred is already at his peak and he's ineffective.