Tinkerman Ole

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,620
I got push back in the match thread and it seems like Im the only one saying this but it has to be said......We make too many changes. There I said it. Its the reason for our inconsistency. Different systems, different players, different positions of players. All the time! Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember any Prem/Seria A/Champs League etc winning team that made so many changes.
Now dont get me wrong we need to use our squad. But its about making smart changes not sweeping changes. Its like the FA cup. You see a Prem side put out a team worth 300 mill against a team thats worth 100 grand. Yeah they could be brilliant and hammer them 5-0 or there can be a shock defeat. Happens all the time. Why? Because you cant just throw on 11 players and guarantee they will click. Even is they are man for man miles better the team that is better coached, drilled and used to playing together might win. It evens the odds. Why do teams like Greece win the Euros.
Everyone says Ole did well against West Ham to make changes and it was all about Bruno being the catalyst etc. It was. But the reason the first half team played sht was not because they are sht but because there were too many changes. Pogba/Greenwood just coming back. Martial out of form and back to left where he hasnt been playing much. Keepers first game. New midfield trio. Too many players finding their feet, getting to know one another, find form and work out the system. The first half team should work. But give them a pre-season or at least some time to gel.
Tell me Im crazy or give me a reason for our inconsistencies. Its no fluke we are world class one minute and the worst team in the league the next.
 

432JuanMata

Full Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
3,094
Location
Dublin
I got push back in the match thread and it seems like Im the only one saying this but it has to be said......We make too many changes. There I said it. Its the reason for our inconsistency. Different systems, different players, different positions of players. All the time! Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember any Prem/Seria A/Champs League etc winning team that made so many changes.
Now dont get me wrong we need to use our squad. But its about making smart changes not sweeping changes. Its like the FA cup. You see a Prem side put out a team worth 300 mill against a team thats worth 100 grand. Yeah they could be brilliant and hammer them 5-0 or there can be a shock defeat. Happens all the time. Why? Because you cant just throw on 11 players and guarantee they will click. Even is they are man for man miles better the team that is better coached, drilled and used to playing together might win. It evens the odds. Why do teams like Greece win the Euros.
Everyone says Ole did well against West Ham to make changes and it was all about Bruno being the catalyst etc. It was. But the reason the first half team played sht was not because they are sht but because there were too many changes. Pogba/Greenwood just coming back. Martial out of form and back to left where he hasnt been playing much. Keepers first game. New midfield trio. Too many players finding their feet, getting to know one another, find form and work out the system. The first half team should work. But give them a pre-season or at least some time to gel.
Tell me Im crazy or give me a reason for our inconsistencies. Its no fluke we are world class one minute and the worst team in the league the next.
We have loads of games coming up this December including are most important match of the season on Tuesday we also didn’t get much pre season and break for the players. We have to rotate so I don’t see a problem with this. The only problem is the level drops so much when we leave out Bruno
 

alexthelion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
3,602
Squad rotation in what is an exceptional year.

Won't be able to play the same XI every game.
 

Cutch

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
16,377
Location
Northern Ireland. Stretty W3102, Row 2, Seat 129
Look at the fixtures. They're relentless for the foreseeable. We seem to make on average about 3-4 changes a game. The back 5 is never rotated so that seems about right on balance. Not something we can criticise him for to be honest.

Of the changes made today:
De Gea injured;
Bruno had a knock;
Rashford managing a shoulder issue;
Fred can't play on Tuesday night so we explored different options

Last year we slated Ole for never rotating. He can't win
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
43,735
Location
Egypt
I had no problem with rotation today. Bruno was probably not 100% fit and we needed him for RB game, which is more important.

I think the poor start had no relation to the rotation. Even the main team started several games really poorly this year.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
He did the right thing today, not his fault the replacements he picked didn’t do their jobs.

you can’t just play the same 11 every game and expect to stay fit.
 

Marcus

Full Member
Joined
Oct 3, 1999
Messages
6,085
With so many players across the board being injured in this freakish condensed season, it is actually a virtue to rotate the squad and still win.
 

Red00012

Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
12,087
He’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t for the Ole outers
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Messages
2,596
Location
Whalley Range
There's going to be serious player burnout across all team in the second half of the season. We already are getting players having muscle injuries, as are other clubs.

Ole, and any sensible manager, will be rotating and protecting players as much as possible.
 

BehemothTerror

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
157
Reminder that Ole was heavily criticized by some on here toward the end of last year for NOT rotating. Damned if you do and all that...
 

12OunceEpilogue

In perfect harmony
Scout
Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
18,392
Location
Wigan
I got push back in the match thread and it seems like Im the only one saying this but it has to be said......We make too many changes. There I said it. Its the reason for our inconsistency. Different systems, different players, different positions of players. All the time! Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember any Prem/Seria A/Champs League etc winning team that made so many changes.
Now dont get me wrong we need to use our squad. But its about making smart changes not sweeping changes. Its like the FA cup. You see a Prem side put out a team worth 300 mill against a team thats worth 100 grand. Yeah they could be brilliant and hammer them 5-0 or there can be a shock defeat. Happens all the time. Why? Because you cant just throw on 11 players and guarantee they will click. Even is they are man for man miles better the team that is better coached, drilled and used to playing together might win. It evens the odds. Why do teams like Greece win the Euros.
Everyone says Ole did well against West Ham to make changes and it was all about Bruno being the catalyst etc. It was. But the reason the first half team played sht was not because they are sht but because there were too many changes. Pogba/Greenwood just coming back. Martial out of form and back to left where he hasnt been playing much. Keepers first game. New midfield trio. Too many players finding their feet, getting to know one another, find form and work out the system. The first half team should work. But give them a pre-season or at least some time to gel.
Tell me Im crazy or give me a reason for our inconsistencies. Its no fluke we are world class one minute and the worst team in the league the next.
You have to acknowledge the need for rotation in this fixture pile-up, not to mention the reasons some players like De Gea, Bruno and Rashford couldn't realistically start this game. Have we heard anything on Fred's absence? He's the one I was surprised with; was he punished for the red card or did Ole want to look at other options before Leipzig?

A point I agree with is that Ole, and I would say the players too, deserve criticism for the inconsistency of performances generally and specifically in different systems. Just to take the 442 diamond we've seen some good-looking football here and there, in a system you would think suits our midfielders if not our fullbacks, but we've also seen some dire stuff such as the Arsenal match. The best teams seem to have a brilliant plan A but are also able to look functional in a plan B or in an improvised system when unexpected things happen, whereas we too often look like strangers in a way other teams who rotate players don't. That needs to change or we're going nowhere this year, we are not going to be able to repair terrible performances in half hour bursts all season.
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
119,451
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Don’t agree at all. This is an exceptional season where they’ve had very little downtime from the previous season, they’ve had no preseason to work with new players and straight into mad fixture lists. That’s before we talk about injuries and players out with Covid.

incredibly harsh and naive to call ANY manager a tinker man this season
 

Henandez14

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Messages
218
Supports
World peace
It’s called experimental innovation, you don’t get better if you don’t try new things
 

Berbasbullet

Too Boring For A Funny Tagline
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
20,031
Fergie rotated absolutely loads, you have to, this isn’t the season to criticise rotation.
 

Gabagoo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
246
The problem isn't the changes we're making, it's the quality of the options.

Martial is playing shit, Greenwood has been up and down... and then we're left with Rashford and Cavani. In theory it should be enough, but it's clearly not.

Behind those four (three or which play nearly every match) we have Mata, James and Lingard... at this point, do these three even count?

We need to sell Mata, James, Lingard and then invest in a couple of talented, young, affordable attackers: one winger and one CF, that can give us legitimate options.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
29,333
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
He got shit last year for not rotating his squad and it nearly cost us. This season he absolutely has to rotate.

The OP is talking about about giving them a preseason or time to gel. We don't have that luxury this season so
he's having to experiment a bit with different combinations in competitive matches.

Rather than continue to look disjointed, the coaching staff should be able to figure out what works and what doesn't and I would expect the players to get used to playing with each other in various formations and should become more comfortable and cohesive as the season progresses.
 

Trequarista10

Full Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2020
Messages
2,536
We should only play 11 players twice a week in an exceptional season with an unprecedented frequency of games. The lack of pre season especially means we shouldn't bother with anyone outside of the first 11.

On the fence with Ole until now but if he rests players in the League Cup I will absolutely lose all faith in the man. Disgraceful.
 

Josh 76

Full Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
5,567
Don’t agree at all. This is an exceptional season where they’ve had very little downtime from the previous season, they’ve had no preseason to work with new players and straight into mad fixture lists. That’s before we talk about injuries and players out with Covid.

incredibly harsh and naive to call ANY manager a tinker man this season
I agree. It's a stupid thread.
The only player we miss is Bruno when he now playing. The rest are almost like for like .
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
13,122
Ole was very consistent last season with his selections, and perhaps we ran out of steam.

He’s added some great options this year on Cavani, Henderson, Telles and DVDB - we have games every 3-4 days, and no preseason, of course he’s going to rotate.

I bet he would love to play his best 11-13 players each week, but physically it’s not possible.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,620
Wait there. I dont think what I meant was getting across. Its not Ole bashing. Yeah Im making a criticism but that doesnt mean I want him gone. Its about the inconsistency. And I purposely said yeah we obviously need to rotate. I want us to rotate! But its about how many changes we make. Its fine lines. Yes Sir Alex made loads of changes at times I think the 12-13 season there were loads. Guardiola also at times. But they generally have a very clear plan and style of play that players can slot into.

The problem is -
We change systems all the time.5 at the back. Diamond. 4-3-3. Two holding midfielders. One holding midfielder. etc
We change players on mass. Not just one or two. On mass. 3,4,5
We change the players positions. Rashford up front. Rashford RW. Rashford LW for example
We play to many players that are finding form or adjusting. Henderson first game. Pogba finding form. Martial out of form. Cavani finding his feet in the Prem. etc

None of the above is bad. Its good. But not all together. Or you get FA cup syndrome. Fact.
 

Pavl3n

Full Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
1,899
I'll make comparison with Bayern's last season. Why Bayern? Because the were the top team last season - dispatching Barca 8-2 and winning the Champions League is a fair benchmark to be the top team across Europe.

Looking at Gnabry, Koman, Coutinho, Muller and Perisic as their front 3 behind the striker - each one of them has at least 38 apps throughout all comps. Or 3300, 2400, 2100, 3500, 1750 minutes respectively.
Then looking at their holding midfielders - Goretzka, Kimmich, Thiago, Martinez and Toliso - they have 34 apps at least or 2500, 4300, 3000, 1000 and 1400, which is a fair amount of rotation even if Martinez's and Toliso's minutes are below the average.

You should also take into account that Bayern are playing 4 games less in their league, compared to us and they have a winter break just shy of 4 weeks.
In my opinion rotations are a must.
 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
7,407
I got push back in the match thread and it seems like Im the only one saying this but it has to be said......We make too many changes. There I said it. Its the reason for our inconsistency. Different systems, different players, different positions of players. All the time! Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember any Prem/Seria A/Champs League etc winning team that made so many changes.
Now dont get me wrong we need to use our squad. But its about making smart changes not sweeping changes. Its like the FA cup. You see a Prem side put out a team worth 300 mill against a team thats worth 100 grand. Yeah they could be brilliant and hammer them 5-0 or there can be a shock defeat. Happens all the time. Why? Because you cant just throw on 11 players and guarantee they will click. Even is they are man for man miles better the team that is better coached, drilled and used to playing together might win. It evens the odds. Why do teams like Greece win the Euros.
Everyone says Ole did well against West Ham to make changes and it was all about Bruno being the catalyst etc. It was. But the reason the first half team played sht was not because they are sht but because there were too many changes. Pogba/Greenwood just coming back. Martial out of form and back to left where he hasnt been playing much. Keepers first game. New midfield trio. Too many players finding their feet, getting to know one another, find form and work out the system. The first half team should work. But give them a pre-season or at least some time to gel.
Tell me Im crazy or give me a reason for our inconsistencies. Its no fluke we are world class one minute and the worst team in the league the next.
We're in the middle of a Covid season where we're playing a game every 3 days. It's common sense. Unless you want us to play our first choice eleven every week and burn ourselves out?
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
32,841
Location
London
I got push back in the match thread and it seems like Im the only one saying this but it has to be said......We make too many changes. There I said it. Its the reason for our inconsistency. Different systems, different players, different positions of players. All the time! Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember any Prem/Seria A/Champs League etc winning team that made so many changes.
Now dont get me wrong we need to use our squad. But its about making smart changes not sweeping changes. Its like the FA cup. You see a Prem side put out a team worth 300 mill against a team thats worth 100 grand. Yeah they could be brilliant and hammer them 5-0 or there can be a shock defeat. Happens all the time. Why? Because you cant just throw on 11 players and guarantee they will click. Even is they are man for man miles better the team that is better coached, drilled and used to playing together might win. It evens the odds. Why do teams like Greece win the Euros.
Everyone says Ole did well against West Ham to make changes and it was all about Bruno being the catalyst etc. It was. But the reason the first half team played sht was not because they are sht but because there were too many changes. Pogba/Greenwood just coming back. Martial out of form and back to left where he hasnt been playing much. Keepers first game. New midfield trio. Too many players finding their feet, getting to know one another, find form and work out the system. The first half team should work. But give them a pre-season or at least some time to gel.
Tell me Im crazy or give me a reason for our inconsistencies. Its no fluke we are world class one minute and the worst team in the league the next.
Except we are the most consistent team in the country this calendar year, in terms of points per game, so your entire argument has zero merit.
 

WR10

Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
5,644
Location
Dream
I got push back in the match thread and it seems like Im the only one saying this but it has to be said......We make too many changes. There I said it. Its the reason for our inconsistency. Different systems, different players, different positions of players. All the time! Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember any Prem/Seria A/Champs League etc winning team that made so many changes.
Now dont get me wrong we need to use our squad. But its about making smart changes not sweeping changes. Its like the FA cup. You see a Prem side put out a team worth 300 mill against a team thats worth 100 grand. Yeah they could be brilliant and hammer them 5-0 or there can be a shock defeat. Happens all the time. Why? Because you cant just throw on 11 players and guarantee they will click. Even is they are man for man miles better the team that is better coached, drilled and used to playing together might win. It evens the odds. Why do teams like Greece win the Euros.
Everyone says Ole did well against West Ham to make changes and it was all about Bruno being the catalyst etc. It was. But the reason the first half team played sht was not because they are sht but because there were too many changes. Pogba/Greenwood just coming back. Martial out of form and back to left where he hasnt been playing much. Keepers first game. New midfield trio. Too many players finding their feet, getting to know one another, find form and work out the system. The first half team should work. But give them a pre-season or at least some time to gel.
Tell me Im crazy or give me a reason for our inconsistencies. Its no fluke we are world class one minute and the worst team in the league the next.
He doesn’t tinker the back 4 (no option). You can’t expect the same attacking players to play at full speed every 3 days mate
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
31,123
He actually rested said players for 45 mins, and got 3 points. Better than overplaying them
What he said was he didn't want to use Bruno or Rashford unless he absolutely has to. And he did.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,620
Except we are the most consistent team in the country this calendar year, in terms of points per game, so your entire argument has zero merit.
????? What? Did you see the first half compared to the second half? Have you seen us give away the first goal in all our away games (in other words play shit) then play world class? Did you see us batter PSG and Leipzig then get beaten by Aresnal and Istanbul? Did you see us get battered at Palace?
Our post covid form was because we played the same team week in week out. Coincidence? Im not saying we should go back to that - Im saying its gone too far the other way
 

lex talionis

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
13,615
The idea that United have been consistent this season is laughable, so let’s not waste any time on that point.

Ole has to rotate players. We risk burning them out otherwise. And sometimes you need to bring in fresh blood to get a result from a losing hand. Cavani on in the second half v Southampton and Fernandes, Rashford and Mata on in the second half v West Ham.

The more urgent matter is why have key players like Martial and Pogba been underperforming this season. I do not have the answer.
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
32,841
Location
London
The idea that United have been consistent this season is laughable, so let’s not waste any time on that point.

Ole has to rotate players. We risk burning them out otherwise. And sometimes you need to bring in fresh blood to get a result from a losing hand. Cavani on in the second half v Southampton and Fernandes, Rashford and Mata on in the second half v West Ham.

The more urgent matter is why have key players like Martial and Pogba been underperforming this season. I do not have the answer.
Prove to me how we’ve been inconsistent when our PPG is better than anyone else this calendar year.
 

Ralph1386

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2008
Messages
3,440
We criticized Ole for not rotating enough before, I’m not going to criticize him for rotating in a fixture-heavy period.
 

TheRedHearted

Full Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
2,635
Location
New York, NY
If you wanna create a system then it’s based on players having specific roles.
In response to the OP I suppose he could based roles off our best 11 and then have other people slot into those roles if a couple are being rested.
 

Jonno

Full Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
8,375
Location
Preston, Lancashire
What he said was he didn't want to use Bruno or Rashford unless he absolutely has to. And he did.
And as such, he won the game and they had 45 minutes rest:lol:

How cant you see this as a positive? I’d understand if we had dropped points....