Tired....again

[Ralph1386]

You mean the best team in the league that arsenal just beat?

Yes. The ones who have 96 points lead by 18.

 

[sp_107]

Something is wrong mentally. Don't buy the fatigue excuse.

True, the rest they got in lockdown the way they looked after themselves..they should be ok for 2 matches in a week.

 

[Amir]

True, the rest they got in lockdown the way they looked after themselves..they should be ok for 2 matches in a week.

Two matches a week for several weeks in a row when you pretty much use the same 11... I don't think any football team can handle it and not suffer.

 

[roonster09]

I should have been time specific when I said closer to the bottom half, there was a time in the winter when we were down in 14th place.

Facing West Ham presents very different challenges to facing the top teams. Psychologically, for the top teams we tend to be more up for it. Sadly we've adopted the game raiser, underdog mentality in most of those games. Tactically there are also a number of other challenges. Much of our success against top teams has been based on defending deep, being aggressive and countering at speed. That's exactly what the mid table teams mostly try to do to us. Fred and McTominay would have offered little against the low block West Ham used last night. We know that because we've struggled to break low blocks all season.

I know that Bruno needs a rest but, psychologically, when he is subbed it provides a boost to our opponents. We saw it against Southampton. Most sides feel like Bruno is the main threat and once he's gone it raises their belief they can beat us.

I don't think Ole doesn't know how to rotate. I think, rightly, he has very little faith in the squad options he has beyond the first XI.

And the same set of players minus Pogba brought us to 5th position and just 3 points behind Chelsea. We should take full sample size. Also I didnt say start one of these players instead of Bruno, they should have some on at least for Matic and Pogba who offered 0 cover to defense.

So if he has little faith, surely the right move is to sell them all and sign players? I mean if we cant trust these players when our first 11 players are dead on their knees, how can we trust these players next season?

 

[TheNewEra]

The full XI should have been rested for the FA cup because top 4 is much more important.

Now Leicester have days more rest, Ole made a big mistake.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Yes. The ones who have 96 points lead by 18.

The ones who in their last 12 games have lost 5 and drawn 2? Ah ok

 

[JJ12]

Depth players aren’t good enough. 2/3 games a week isn’t great for the same players to start every match.

United not the only team that look like they are suffering as a result though.

 

[Zlatan 7]

True, the rest they got in lockdown the way they looked after themselves..they should be ok for 2 matches in a week.

Try 4 in a week

 

[roonster09]

There's a huge change between how we are playing now and how we were playing with McT and Fred in midfield. I never said they can't play well with Bruno, but the issue is we are playing a system different from what we were playing earlier. Why else don't you think the coaching staff doesn't start them and insists on playing Matic?There are numerous ways of playing in a double pivot and Pogba/Matic combo plays totally differently compared to the Fred/McT combo.

It's not something very complicated, we are playing a very basic 4-2-3-1 with double pivot, one defensive player and one player who is good at distribution. We have 2 wide players who loves to cut in and a proper attacking mid.

Any midfield worth his salt can play in this midfield 2. If they can't even play 30 mins against West Ham then they shouldn't be in the squad at all.

We dont even have to play Fred-McT together, at least bring Matic off and sub in someone like Fred. Or bring Pogba off and sub in someone like McTominay who offers good work rate and also had legs to carry the ball, more importantly both Fred and McT were fresh, which means their level of concentration and work rate would have been high.

If we played 1 game a week then yes, but not when we had to play 4 games in 9 days.

 

[Zlatan 7]

And the same set of players minus Pogba brought us to 5th position and just 3 points behind Chelsea. We should take full sample size. Also I didnt say start one of these players instead of Bruno, they should have some on at least for Matic and Pogba who offered 0 cover to defense.

So if he has little faith, surely the right move is to sell them all and sign players? I mean if we cant trust these players when our first 11 players are dead on their knees, how can we trust these players next season?

If only we were Man City ey?

 

[roonster09]

If only we were Man City ey?

If only you can read the context eh?

 

[Zlatan 7]

If only you can read the context eh?

What context? Our back up players are not good enough and it’s our current 11 that got us in this great position of only needing a point to get top four?

I agree, shame we can’t sell everyone at the same time and buy new

 

[roonster09]

What context? Our back up players are not good enough and it’s our current 11 that got us in this great position of only needing a point to get top four?

I agree, shame we can’t sell everyone at the same time and buy new

I said we should have subbed in McTominay/Fred as Matic/Pogba/Bruno were tired, other poster said Ole doesn't trust them (maybe), so I said if he doesn't trust players to play 30 mins against West Ham when our players are completely exhausted then we should sell them all as they won't be trusted too next season.

Also, Fred, Mctominay played important role before the Covid break, we had all the momentum and were just 3 points behind Chelsea. It's not as if Pogba, Matic, Bruno did all the work. Both Fred and McTominay played important role too when they played with Bruno.

 

[r3idy]

True, the rest they got in lockdown the way they looked after themselves..they should be ok for 2 matches in a week.

It's just the matches though, it's the prep that goes on in between. Look at last week. We played on Thursday night, Friday is rest, physio, recovery. Saturday travel to London. Chelsea had a bigger recovery and prep period. Play the game Sunday evening. At best the team travel back by bus on Sunday night, at worst Monday for us to play again on Weds.

Play it forward this week, Chelsea has reduced rest, recovery and days travelling to Liverpool for an evening game and they get turned over

As much as I think Ole is on the right track with the team and the direction he is taking them, his in-game management of players has been exposed in this period. Some players could have come on earlier to keep them sharp and maintain the tempo in game (McTominay, Fred etc) and other players are now looking a little jaded. I mean why try and keep hold of Ighalo if it was going to be for cameo's here and there.

My personal belief is that the team is tired.

 

[King7Eric]

It's not something very complicated, we are playing a very basic 4-2-3-1 with double pivot, one defensive player and one player who is good at distribution. We have 2 wide players who loves to cut in and a proper attacking mid.

Any midfield worth his salt can play in this midfield 2. If they can't even play 30 mins against West Ham then they shouldn't be in the squad at all.

We dont even have to play Fred-McT together, at least bring Matic off and sub in someone like Fred. Or bring Pogba off and sub in someone like McTominay who offers good work rate and also had legs to carry the ball, more importantly both Fred and McT were fresh, which means their level of concentration and work rate would have been high.

If we played 1 game a week then yes, but not when we had to play 4 games in 9 days.

This is the entire problem. Matic offers something totally different to Fred and McT and neither can deputize properly for him. Bringing Pobga off means, the opposing team's midfield only have to worry about stopping Bruno's passes and can mark him out. Because while McT and Fred both offer legs and ability to carry the ball, neither are likely to play a defense splitting pass. Its makes them much easier to defend against, especially when you are sitting back, like West Ham were doing. I don't understand why people on here think that a professional manager and professional coaching staff can't see something that appears to be so obvious to them. I'm sure they know the problem but we have no solution on the bench.

 

[#07]

And the same set of players minus Pogba brought us to 5th position and just 3 points behind Chelsea. We should take full sample size. Also I didnt say start one of these players instead of Bruno, they should have some on at least for Matic and Pogba who offered 0 cover to defense.

So if he has little faith, surely the right move is to sell them all and sign players? I mean if we cant trust these players when our first 11 players are dead on their knees, how can we trust these players next season?

Even taking a full sample size of games where we relied on our squad players as starters, they've still done more bad than good sans Bruno. Yes, Bruno lifted the team and continues to do so even when he's on his last legs. But with him on his last legs it puts even more onus on them to perform and they just cannot do what we need them to do.

Lets look at our bench last night in terms of who can be trusted: Mata's new contract was bizarre. He has clearly been too slow for the league for awhile now. Lingard's fallen off a cliff form wise and looks lost. Fred? £50m on a player who arguably is no improvement on Ander Herrera seems a massive waste of money. You spend that kind of cash you're expecting someone at least a level up on what we had before e.g. Bruno on Andreas is definitely a £50m improvement. Why spend so much to go sideways(...like so much of Fred's passing)? Dalot. Bless him the kid just can't defend. Stands square when being run at and gets crossed more easily than traffic lights. James? Willing to give him more time but he has wilted under the spotlight of late. Romero? Massively overrated by our fan base, prone to ricks but is usually bailed out by these being against lower league or lesser Europa league level sides. Ighalo. Makes a contribution, happy for him to stick around for his loan. Wan-Bissaka, first XI. No comment (besides should cross better, earlier and more often). McTominay, better at #8 than #6. Has been pretty awful since the Spurs game, which he started only to lose his place to Matic because of how badly he played. Returned against Norwich. Run off too easily. Returned against Palace. Run off too easily.

So out of that bench you're looking at maybe one or two players who you might trust. Low and behold Ole made that number of subs.

The squad isn't good enough.

This is the entire problem. Matic offers something totally different to Fred and McT and neither can deputize properly for him. Bringing Pobga off means, the opposing team's midfield only have to worry about stopping Bruno's passes and can mark him out. Because while McT and Fred both offer legs and ability to carry the ball, neither are likely to play a defense splitting pass. Its makes them much easier to defend against, especially when you are sitting back, like West Ham were doing. I don't understand why people on here think that a professional manager and professional coaching staff can't see something that appears to be so obvious to them. I'm sure they know the problem but we have no solution on the bench.

Exactly!

 

[roonster09]

This is the entire problem. Matic offers something totally different to Fred and McT and neither can deputize properly for him. Bringing Pobga off means, the opposing team's midfield only have to worry about stopping Bruno's passes and can mark him out. Because while McT and Fred both offer legs and ability to carry the ball, neither are likely to play a defense splitting pass. Its makes them much easier to defend against, especially when you are sitting back, like West Ham were doing. I don't understand why people on here think that a professional manager and professional coaching staff can't see something that appears to be so obvious to them. I'm sure they know the problem but we have no solution on the bench.

Matic doesn't offer anything totally different, not at least when he can't even run. West ham midfielders were having such an easy time going past our non existent midfield, even Mark Noble looked like Xavi/Iniesta.

So are you saying McTominay and Fred are not good enough to play against fecking West ham United? Also there isn't a rule that we have to make like for like subs, if that's the case players like Jesus, Origi, Keita, or any sub that plays for top team will ever come on as a sub.

Fred offers insane work rate, he is very good at hassling opponents, he is very good at playing forward passes and on the ground, he is very good at carrying the ball which is something he offers that Matic can't.

It's Matic we are talking about, not Redondo, Roy Keane, Busquets mixture of a player.

Also bringing off Pogba means opposition will have to worry about only Bruno? Do you think players like McTominay and Fred can't even pass the ball? When West Ham were running all over the midfield, the least we could have done is, bring someone who brings some stability to the midfield.

Anyways this is all pointless, you have made up your mind that Ole had no choice but to play the exhausted players and there is no one who can offer what Matic offers.

 

[roonster09]

Even taking a full sample size of games where we relied on our squad players as starters, they've still done more bad than good sans Bruno. Yes, Bruno lifted the team and continues to do so even when he's on his last legs. But with him on his last legs it puts even more onus on them to perform and they just cannot do what we need them to do.

Lets look at our bench last night in terms of who can be trusted: Mata's new contract was bizarre. He has clearly been too slow for the league for awhile now. Lingard's fallen off a cliff form wise and looks lost. Fred? £50m on a player who arguably is no improvement on Ander Herrera seems a massive waste of money. You spend that kind of cash you're expecting someone at least a level up on what we had before e.g. Bruno on Andreas is definitely a £50m improvement. Why spend so much to go sideways(...like so much of Fred's passing)? Dalot. Bless him the kid just can't defend. Stands square when being run at and gets crossed more easily than traffic lights. James? Willing to give him more time but he has wilted under the spotlight of late. Romero? Massively overrated by our fan base, prone to ricks but is usually bailed out by these being against lower league or lesser Europa league level sides. Ighalo. Makes a contribution, happy for him to stick around for his loan. Wan-Bissaka, first XI. No comment (besides should cross better, earlier and more often). McTominay, better at #8 than #6. Has been pretty awful since the Spurs game, which he started only to lose his place to Matic because of how badly he played. Returned against Norwich. Run off too easily. Returned against Palace. Run off too easily.

So out of that bench you're looking at maybe one or two players who you might trust. Low and behold Ole made that number of subs.

The squad isn't good enough.

What was Matic doing all game? All he did was take unnecessary touches, put more pressure on himself and his team, lost the ball.

Do you really think Fred who was arguably our best player till Jan wasn't even good enough to play 30 mins against West ham replacing Matic? That's so weird. Like I said, it's fecking Matic, not Redondo or Roy Keane.

Matic is decent when he has proper rest, all the players was exhausted, if we go by your and other poster's logic, no team will ever make a sub as those subs won't be good as starting 11 players.

 

[Champ]

Chelsea lost to the best team in the league and better squad, not because they rotated and played Giroud/Willian instead of Abraham/Pulisic. They managed to score three - against most other teams that would have been enough to win.

I just said earlier that we do not have have a good enough squad at the moment to rotate and compete on all fronts. Which is why we should pick our battles wisely. So thanks for reiterating my point with the fa cup example.

Most people here seem to think that we should have rested the first 11 against Chelsea on Sunday. I understand that you disagree but we’re not supposed to agree on everything.

Why throw away the chance for a trophy? It's staggering that you even contemplate that! Such bizarre thinking.
You won't win any games by letting in 5, I can guarantee that Lampard won't rest his best 11 on Sunday! Which further emphasizes my point.

We have a strong squad, the first 11 are a match for every team, to claim they are tired is potentially correct only the players can answer that, my guess is they aren't due to conditioning and carefully planned training sessions, but the flip side is if the are, they are no more or less tired than Leicester, or Southampton, or Chelsea etc etc.

To think otherwise is just making excuses. Which judging by the fact that some people would have us throw away a trophy isn't surprising.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

What was Matic doing all game? All he did was take unnecessary touches, put more pressure on himself and his team, lost the ball.

Do you really think Fred who was arguably our best player till Jan wasn't even good enough to play 30 mins against West ham replacing Matic? That's so weird. Like I said, it's fecking Matic, not Redondo or Roy Keane.

Matic is decent when he has proper rest, all the players was exhausted, if we go by your and other poster's logic, no team will ever make a sub as those subs won't be good as starting 11 players.

Yeah this is what I don't get... People keep saying we don't have bench options... as if we simply couldn't afford to replace the players on the pitch because they were setting the world on fire or something.

 

[Jezpeza]

We are still 3rd going into last game. We lost a cup semi and had a couple of draws. Thats no ‘collapse’ IMO. Do remember west ham beat chelsea.

However i agree that We looked like lead Legs today. I am all for rotation but if you lay out our squad between 1st/second 11 and really think about it its not great reading. Some of them arent even fit atm.

IMO, We cant just change Players for shit ones and expect to still win matches. Its arguable we can upgrade 4 positions in the first choice 11 which would bench 4 of them. Id take a better left back, centre back, centre midfielder and right winger. You wouldn't want many of the second string to have to play an extended run in our team unfortunately. I genuinely believe you could build a better second eleven using players from teams that are getting relegated. Theres a Big step off in quality, that will need addressing as recruitment goes on.

1st 11:
DDG

AWB Vic Maguire Shaw

Matic

Bruno Pogba

Greenwood martial rashford

2nd 11 options:

Romero

Dalot/TFM Jones Bailly/Tuanzabe Williams

Mct Fred Garner

Pereira/Lingard/Mata

Chong Ighalo James

 

[roonster09]

Yeah this is what I don't get... People keep saying we don't have bench options... as if we simply couldn't afford to replace the players on the pitch because they were setting the world on fire or something.

Exactly, if you read the posts here someone who never watched football would think Matic is some genius, GOAT level player.

All 3 midfielders were exhausted and offered nothing, how can we not trust Fred and McTominay to play 30 mins against West Ham. If that's the case we are fecked next season as Matic can't play every game and we can't trust Fred and McT.

 

[#07]

What was Matic doing all game? All he did was take unnecessary touches, put more pressure on himself and his team, lost the ball.

Do you really think Fred who was arguably our best player till Jan wasn't even good enough to play 30 mins against West ham replacing Matic? That's so weird. Like I said, it's fecking Matic, not Redondo or Roy Keane.

Matic is decent when he has proper rest, all the players was exhausted, if we go by your and other poster's logic, no team will ever make a sub as those subs won't be good as starting 11 players.

Based upon Fred's recent performances, which have been poor since Spurs, I'm not sure he would have come in and offered more. Certainly Fred was no better than Matic at the weekend,. With the way West Ham were winning free kicks and loading up the box, and the way West Ham have been scoring off aerial balls lately, do you think it would've bee wise to take Matic off and leave Fred up against Soucek and Rice instead. Especially given how badly we've defended crosses and set pieces lately.

You're right Matic isn't that good. However, as a defensive midfielder he's the best we've got. Which again shows how lacking in depth our squad is. Matic, at his current level, would struggle to get near the very best Man Utd sides. The fact he's obviously the best option we have at #6 shows how far we've fallen.

 

[King7Eric]

Matic doesn't offer anything totally different, not at least when he can't even run. West ham midfielders were having such an easy time going past our non existent midfield, even Mark Noble looked like Xavi/Iniesta.

So are you saying McTominay and Fred are not good enough to play against fecking West ham United? Also there isn't a rule that we have to make like for like subs, if that's the case players like Jesus, Origi, Keita, or any sub that plays for top team will ever come on as a sub.

Fred offers insane work rate, he is very good at hassling opponents, he is very good at playing forward passes and on the ground, he is very good at carrying the ball which is something he offers that Matic can't.

It's Matic we are talking about, not Redondo, Roy Keane, Busquets mixture of a player.

Also bringing off Pogba means opposition will have to worry about only Bruno? Do you think players like McTominay and Fred can't even pass the ball? When West Ham were running all over the midfield, the least we could have done is, bring someone who brings some stability to the midfield.

Anyways this is all pointless, you have made up your mind that Ole had no choice but to play the exhausted players and there is no one who can offer what Matic offers.

You are just devolving into hyperbole now. Fred and McTominay have a lot of great qualities but they wouldn't have helped us last night. I'm not saying Matic is great, in fact I was constantly shouting at him over the TV last night at how slow and lethargic he was being. He needs to be replaced, simple as that, but players like Fred are not the answer for that position. We started with Fred in Pogba's role against Chelsea and how many meaningful attacking contributions did he make? He is fantastic at hassling opponents and that works in certain games, but not against teams who aren't trying to play through midfield.

I'm not saying Fred or McT are not good enough for us, but they are well suited to a specific system (like most players in this world), which is not the one we have been playing these last few weeks.

Anyway I agree that we are not gonna find common ground here, so let's just leave it at that.

 

[roonster09]

Based upon Fred's recent performances, which have been poor since Spurs, I'm not sure he would have come in and offered more. Certainly Fred was no better than Matic at the weekend,. With the way West Ham were winning free kicks and loading up the box, and the way West Ham have been scoring off aerial balls lately, do you think it would've bee wise to take Matic off and leave Fred up against Soucek and Rice instead. Especially given how badly we've defended crosses and set pieces lately.

You're right Matic isn't that good. However, as a defensive midfielder he's the best we've got. Which again shows how lacking in depth our squad is. Matic, at his current level, would struggle to get near the very best Man Utd sides. The fact he's obviously the best option we have at #6 shows how far we've fallen.

Matic is having poor games since Villa, there is no point playing him especially when he was already exhausted. If poor performance is the excuse then Matic shouldn't step on the pitch again going by his performance in last few games.

 

[roonster09]

You are just devolving into hyperbole now.

Dude give it a rest, you said we can't sub on Fred or McTominay for Matic or others, you post as if our 4-2-3-1 is some sort of rocket science and now you are telling me about hyperbole.

Going by your logic, we have played Matic, what was his contribution since Villa game? Why are we playing in every game when his performances are shit since signing new contract and Villa game. At least if these players were fit and not tired, you would had a point. These players were barely able to job, they were so tired that they couldn't even get basics right, giving away possession all the time.

West Ham made our midfield non existent, Mark Noble and Rice went past Matic and Pogba unchallenged and somehow you are saying McTominay and Fred wouldn't have made difference.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Matic doesn't offer anything totally different, not at least when he can't even run. West ham midfielders were having such an easy time going past our non existent midfield, even Mark Noble looked like Xavi/Iniesta.

So are you saying McTominay and Fred are not good enough to play against fecking West ham United? Also there isn't a rule that we have to make like for like subs, if that's the case players like Jesus, Origi, Keita, or any sub that plays for top team will ever come on as a sub.

Fred offers insane work rate, he is very good at hassling opponents, he is very good at playing forward passes and on the ground, he is very good at carrying the ball which is something he offers that Matic can't.

It's Matic we are talking about, not Redondo, Roy Keane, Busquets mixture of a player.

Also bringing off Pogba means opposition will have to worry about only Bruno? Do you think players like McTominay and Fred can't even pass the ball? When West Ham were running all over the midfield, the least we could have done is, bring someone who brings some stability to the midfield.

Anyways this is all pointless, you have made up your mind that Ole had no choice but to play the exhausted players and there is no one who can offer what Matic offers.

The other side of this coin is that if Ole did bring on Fred or lingard or whoever and we failed to get the second goal or worse, conceded, there’d be posts exactly like yours only from the other side slating Ole for taking off matic and allowing us to concede or by taking off rashford for James taking away a great goal scoring threat.
Ole just can’t win at the moment there’s so many arm chair managers online

 

[#07]

Matic is having poor games since Villa, there is no point playing him especially when he was already exhausted. If poor performance is the excuse then Matic shouldn't step on the pitch again going by his performance in last few games.

Matic played much better than McTominay did against Palace. However bad he's been he's still playing better than Fred and McTominay, neither of whom are proper defensive midfielders. So what do you want Ole to do? He trusted McTominay and Fred at Spurs, they were rubbish. He trusted them at Norwich, again rubbish. McTominay comes back in at Palace, has to be replaced by Matic for looking like little boy lost. Fred comes in against Chelsea, again bad.

This is the problem Ole has. You're saying Matic needs a rest. I 100% agree. However, at the moment he can't rest. Reason being, as bad as he is, the others are playing even worse.

The other side of this coin is that if Ole did bring on Fred or lingard or whoever and we failed to get the second goal or worse, conceded, there’d be posts exactly like yours only from the other side slating Ole for taking off matic and allowing us to concede or by taking off rashford for James taking away a great goal scoring threat.
Ole just can’t win at the moment there’s so many arm chair managers online

Agreed. If we concede a free kick, Soucek gets a run on a midget like Fred and scores everyone afterwards would be moaning saying: 'Why take off Matic and leave a 5ft nothing player against Moyes' cross merchants?'

 

[roonster09]

The other side of this coin is that if Ole did bring on Fred or lingard or whoever and we failed to get the second goal or worse, conceded, there’d be posts exactly like yours only from the other side slating Ole for taking off matic and allowing us to concede or by taking off rashford for James taking away a great goal scoring threat.
Ole just can’t win at the moment there’s so many arm chair managers online

When you don't know me or my posts, it's better to shut up. As simple as that.

I always defended Ole and will never disrespect him, that doesn't mean we can't question his decisions.

 

[Zlatan 7]

When you don't know me or my posts, it's better to shut up. As simple as that.

I always defended Ole and will never disrespect him, that doesn't mean we can't question his decisions.

I’ll shut up then, simple. That was easy

 

[roonster09]

Matic played much better than McTominay did against Palace. However bad he's been he's still playing better than Fred and McTominay, neither of whom are proper defensive midfielders. So what do you want Ole to do? He trusted McTominay and Fred at Spurs, they were rubbish. He trusted them at Norwich, again rubbish. McTominay comes back in at Palace, has to be replaced by Matic for looking like little boy lost. Fred comes in against Chelsea, again bad.

This is the problem Ole has. You're saying Matic needs a rest. I 100% agree. However, at the moment he can't rest. Reason being, as bad as he is, the others are playing even worse.



Agreed. If we concede a free kick, Soucek gets a run on a midget like Fred and scores everyone afterwards would be moaning saying: 'Why take of Matic and leave a 5ft nothing player against Moyes' cross merchants?'

Likewise Matic played shit against West Ham, Chelsea, Southampton and somehow we have to trust him.

Shit player with no energy left is not better than shit player with plenty in the tank.

Actually the bold part sums up everything, whatever manager does is correct, There shouldn't be any questions asked.

 

[#07]

Likewise Matic played shit against West Ham, Chelsea, Southampton and somehow we have to trust him.

Shit player with no energy left is not better than shit player with plenty in the tank.

The evidence for this just isn't there. Where was McTominay and Fred's energy against Southampton? There is no evidence that they will play better than Matic. In fact the Palace game showed the opposite. Matic was an obvious improvement on McTominay. Fred would've got beasted by the giants in West Ham's midfield, just like he got steamrolled by Southampton's.

You are just devolving into hyperbole now. Fred and McTominay have a lot of great qualities but they wouldn't have helped us last night. I'm not saying Matic is great, in fact I was constantly shouting at him over the TV last night at how slow and lethargic he was being. He needs to be replaced, simple as that, but players like Fred are not the answer for that position. We started with Fred in Pogba's role against Chelsea and how many meaningful attacking contributions did he make? He is fantastic at hassling opponents and that works in certain games, but not against teams who aren't trying to play through midfield.

I'm not saying Fred or McT are not good enough for us, but they are well suited to a specific system (like most players in this world), which is not the one we have been playing these last few weeks.

Anyway I agree that we are not gonna find common ground here, so let's just leave it at that.

Bingo. Its fine calling for rotation but we can't rotate if the options aren't there.

The things we need from our holding players are not things that Fred and McTominay have shown they can offer. As bad as Matic has mostly been recently. He can, at least, do those things. And if he's being mostly rubbish at least when Jarrod Bowen is pumping in crosses he can make himself big and not be bullied in the air by Moyes' Slavic Fellaini, Soucek.

 

[roonster09]

The evidence for this just isn't there. Where was McTominay and Fred's energy against Southampton? There is no evidence that they will play better than Matic. In fact the Palace game showed the opposite. Matic was an obvious improvement on McTominay. Fred would've got beasted by the giants in West Ham's midfield, just like he got steamrolled by Southampton's.

So is it only logical to sell both McTominay and Fred? What's the point of them, or at least can we expect them not to play against any physical teams which should rule our more than half of PL teams. So I dont see the point of players who can be only useful against less than 50% of the teams.

McTominay is twice better than Matic at heading the ball btw, Matic despite his size is poor in the air.

Instead of getting beaten by giants, maybe we would have pushed them deeper with the energy, movement and passing. I mean we don't have to defend all the time and the only reason why we defended deep was our players were exhausted and couldn't even control simple passes.

Btw there is enough evidence, just you have to check their performance before the covid lockdown.

Anyways this is just "My manager can't do wrong" stuff. Good day.

 

[Stacks]

If we did that, we'd be a minimum 4-6 points worse off guaranteed, and we'd be facing having to have all our eggs in the Europa League basket. Again.

Like I said, in an ideal world we'd have likely seen a lot more rotation. It's not like Ole stuck to one lineup all throughout his time here. He has rotated plenty of times. He gave these players a chance vs Norwich and they proceeded to shit the bed. He can't trust them at this point.

The issue is that literally every game has been crucial, there just hasn't been that opportunity to let players like Fred, James and McTominay play themselves into form. Not least when the players they are under were playing so much better. Yes, Rashford played himself into form, but the upside of Rashford playing himself into form is that he's Rashford! James playing himself into form, for example, would be slightly better than an out-of-form Rashford, and that's not intended as a slight on James.

This is why I say lockdown has fecked us, cos it came at a time when everyone in the squad from Bruno and Martial, to McTominay and Fred were playing well and were in good form and rhythm. That all had to go back to zero when restart happened and the squad players, largely because of the circumstances, just have not had the opportunity to catch up.

Also, lest we forget, this is an atypical run-in. Where the games were once spread out over the course of 8-10 weeks, we are doing them in 4-6. No fitness coach at the outset of this season was planning to be in this position, but here we are. Unfortunately for us, our very small squad is being stretched to the limit, and hopefully it should have enough to come through the final game.

You don't get rotation.
rotation is not playing a completely different team (resting 8 first team players) it's rotating a few positions at a time. The Norwich line up had only 3 regular first team players. That doesn't mean you cannot trust certain players. Many of our players have played rubbish for a few games and we supposedly trust them. One result where only 3 first team players started. To rotate you play majority of your first team and rotate maybe 3 or 4. Then you still keep the strength of your side and can continue to win games. Liverpool have done similar and have rotated their centre midfielders post lockdown.

 

[King7Eric]

Dude give it a rest, you said we can't sub on Fred or McTominay for Matic or others, you post as if our 4-2-3-1 is some sort of rocket science and now you are telling me about hyperbole.

Going by your logic, we have played Matic, what was his contribution since Villa game? Why are we playing in every game when his performances are shit since signing new contract and Villa game. At least if these players were fit and not tired, you would had a point. These players were barely able to job, they were so tired that they couldn't even get basics right, giving away possession all the time.

West Ham made our midfield non existent, Mark Noble and Rice went past Matic and Pogba unchallenged and somehow you are saying McTominay and Fred wouldn't have made difference.

You were accusing me of having made up my mind that Ole had no choice but you are doing the same. You have also made up your mind that we play some rudimentary system that every player can walk into and that if someone is tired, they should immediately be replaced by fresher legs, no matter what their qualities.

So as I said, let's just leave it here, we're never gonna agree.

 

[roonster09]

You don't get rotation.
rotation is not playing a completely different team (resting 8 first team players) it's rotating a few positions at a time. The Norwich line up had only 3 regular first team players. That doesn't mean you cannot trust certain players. Many of our players have played rubbish for a few games and we supposedly trust them. One result where only 3 first team players started. To rotate you play majority of your first team and rotate maybe 3 or 4. Then you still keep the strength of your side and can continue to win games. Liverpool have done similar and have rotated their centre midfielders post lockdown.

Exactly. If we make decisions on one game then none of these players are fit to play our first team. Its easy to forget Fred was having very good season, same with McTominay too before lockdown.

 

[Eli Zee]

Well if our manager was smart we could have rested players on Sunday. But in the end he benched a few players and decided to play them, which meant he ended up doing nothing.

Because we lost you see it as nothing. If we pulled out a win and had an FA cup final, everyone would be praising him. He took a reasonable gamble and lost. Saying he's not smart is an overreaction.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

From another thread:

On fixture congestion, aka the 'games come thick and fast every season' argument:

In 2018/19, GW 30-39 spanned from 10th March through 12th May in which we played 12 games. That's 5.3 days per game.
In 2019/20, we restarted at GW 30 again on 20th June ending on GW 38 on 27th July in which we would have played 11 games. Thats 3.1 days per game.

We had 70% more time between games last season as compared to this one.


On squad fitness, aka the ' our players get knackered too easily' argument:

Minutes played by Man United players since restart:

	Maguire	Bruno	Rashford	Lindelof	AWB	Martial	Greenwood	Pogba	Matic	Shaw	Williams	McTominay	Fred	Ighalo	James	Rest
Spurs	90	90	90	78	90	78	28	27	12	90	0	89	63	12	62	Dalot
Sheffield Utd	90	74	74	90	90	74	74	74	90	90	0	10	0	16	10	TFM
Norwich	120	120	57	0	0	24	57	42	42	120	57	78	78	120	0	Mata
Brighton	90	64	78	90	90	78	90	64	90	64	26	26	0	12	12	Lingard
Bournemouth	90	90	80	46	90	80	75	90	67	90	0	0	23	10	15	Bailly
Villa	90	71	90	90	66	79	79	90	66	90	24	24	19	11	11
Southampton	90	84	90	90	90	90	84	63	90	75	15	10	27	0	10
Palace	90	90	90	90	90	90	62	90	27	0	0	63	0	0	0
Chelsea	90	90	79	90	79	45	35	35	90	0	90	0	55	11	56
West Ham	90	90	85	90	45	90	90	90	90	0	90	0	0	5	0
Total Minutes	930	863	813	754	730	728	674	665	664	619	302	300	265	197	176
% of Total Possible	100	92.79569892	87.41935484	81.07526882	78.49462366	78.27956989	72.47311828	71.50537634	71.39784946	66.55913978	32.47311828	32.25806452	28.49462366	21.1827957	18.92473118

For comparison, look at minutes by Chelsea players since restart:

	Azpi	Willian	Rudiger	Pulisic	Zouma	Mount	Alonso	Giroud	James	Christensen	Barkley	Kante	Kovacic	Jorginho	Tammy	Rest
Villa	90	90	90	35	0	90	90	80	5	90	35	90	55	0	10	Pedro
City	90	90	90	90	0	90	90	62	0	90	73	90	17	0	28	CHO
Leicester	44	78	90	72	90	46	0	0	46	0	44	90	44	0	90	Gilmour
West Ham	90	90	90	90	0	37	90	27	0	90	63	90	53	0	63	Emerson
Watford	90	76	0	90	90	76	0	76	90	90	90	78	0	0	14	RLC
Palace	90	90	0	90	90	90	0	65	90	90	65	0	0	10	25
Sheffield Utd	90	90	45	66	90	45	45	34	75	45	78	0	0	90	90
Norwich	90	90	90	80	90	0	80	85	10	0	23	0	90	90	5
Manchester Utd	90	80	90	0	90	90	90	80	90	0	0	0	85	90	10
Liverpool	90	59	90	31	90	59	88	59	90	0	0	0	90	90	31
Total Minutes	854	833	675	644	630	623	573	568	496	495	471	438	434	370	366
% of Total Possible	94.88888889	92.55555556	75	71.55555556	70	69.22222222	63.66666667	63.11111111	55.11111111	55	52.33333333	48.66666667	48.22222222	41.11111111	40.66666667

Look at the number of minutes most of our players have had - in a row - during this run. We've hardly got the same quality of depth as Chelsea, and that means the likes of Rashford, Bruno and 18-year-old Greenwood are taking on far more responsibility that they should. Clubs with similarly bare squad depth are losing players left, right and centre - look at Bournemouth, Sheffield, Villa or even Leicester - our players have insane fitness as compared to these clubs, Ole has definitely improved our fitness else we would have lost more than just Shaw to injury.

 

[roonster09]

You were accusing me of having made up my mind that Ole had no choice but you are doing the same. You have also made up your mind that we play some rudimentary system that every player can walk into that if someone is tired, they should immediately be replaced by fresher legs, no matter what their qualities.

So as I said, let's just leave it here, we're never gonna agree.

That's basic football, subbing out tired players who can't even jog and playing a basic midfield role.

So we shouldn't bring on McTominay or Fred in any game as they can't offer these "Qualities" that Matic offers.

If you said same thing about Pogba, I would have said yes, as Pogba is our best passer of the ball and in one moment he can unlock defense from deep but it's Matic, he doesn't offer so much that Fred or McTominay can't.

 

[#07]

So is it only logical to sell both McTominay and Fred? What's the point of them, or at least can we expect them not to play against any physical teams which should rule our more than half of PL teams. So I dont see the point of players who can be only useful against less than 50% of the teams.

McTominay is twice better than Matic at heading the ball btw, Matic despite his size is poor in the air.

Instead of getting beaten by giants, maybe we would have pushed them deeper with the energy, movement and passing. I mean we don't have to defend all the time and the only reason why we defended deep was our players were exhausted and couldn't even control simple passes.

Btw there is enough evidence, just you have to check their performance before the covid lockdown.

Anyways this is just "My manager can't do wrong" stuff. Good day.

It is logical to get rid of one of Fred and McTominay, yes. They fundamentally do the same thing and, now that we've shifted style, its unlikely both will be needed that often. We can then buy a world class defensive midfield to replace Matic and use Matic as the rotation option he should be until he moves on.

McTominay at his best is better in the air than Matic, I agree. However, he has not showed any such qualities since the season restarted at Spurs and played his way out of the first XI.

Its possible. However, this is not what happened against Southampton when Fred and McTominay came on. @King7Eric has repeatedly illustrated how Fred's attacking contributions have been lacking since the restart.

We can agree to disagree on what they did pre-lockdown. To some extent its irrelevant as I don't think you can judge a player's form today on what they were doing in March.

On the contrary, I don't think 'my manager can't do wrong.' I just think you are reaching for the easy answer, which is to blame Ole, rather than accept how complex/difficult the situation he faces is. I can understand why. If we just blame Ole then it seems like there's a simple answer that can set things right. Unfortunately that is not the case. Fixing our problems will take a lot more time, and investment, than just giving McTominay or Fred games and giving Matic fewer.

From another thread:

On fixture congestion, aka the 'games come thick and fast every season' argument:

In 2018/19, GW 30-39 spanned from 10th March through 12th May in which we played 12 games. That's 5.3 days per game.
In 2019/20, we restarted at GW 30 again on 20th June ending on GW 38 on 27th July in which we would have played 11 games. Thats 3.1 days per game.

We had 70% more time between games last season as compared to this one.


On squad fitness, aka the ' our players get knackered too easily' argument:

Minutes played by Man United players since restart:

	Maguire	Bruno	Rashford	Lindelof	AWB	Martial	Greenwood	Pogba	Matic	Shaw	Williams	McTominay	Fred	Ighalo	James	Rest
Spurs	90	90	90	78	90	78	28	27	12	90	0	89	63	12	62	Dalot
Sheffield Utd	90	74	74	90	90	74	74	74	90	90	0	10	0	16	10	TFM
Norwich	120	120	57	0	0	24	57	42	42	120	57	78	78	120	0	Mata
Brighton	90	64	78	90	90	78	90	64	90	64	26	26	0	12	12	Lingard
Bournemouth	90	90	80	46	90	80	75	90	67	90	0	0	23	10	15	Bailly
Villa	90	71	90	90	66	79	79	90	66	90	24	24	19	11	11
Southampton	90	84	90	90	90	90	84	63	90	75	15	10	27	0	10
Palace	90	90	90	90	90	90	62	90	27	0	0	63	0	0	0
Chelsea	90	90	79	90	79	45	35	35	90	0	90	0	55	11	56
West Ham	90	90	85	90	45	90	90	90	90	0	90	0	0	5	0
Total Minutes	930	863	813	754	730	728	674	665	664	619	302	300	265	197	176
% of Total Possible	100	92.79569892	87.41935484	81.07526882	78.49462366	78.27956989	72.47311828	71.50537634	71.39784946	66.55913978	32.47311828	32.25806452	28.49462366	21.1827957	18.92473118

For comparison, look at minutes by Chelsea players since restart:

	Azpi	Willian	Rudiger	Pulisic	Zouma	Mount	Alonso	Giroud	James	Christensen	Barkley	Kante	Kovacic	Jorginho	Tammy	Rest
Villa	90	90	90	35	0	90	90	80	5	90	35	90	55	0	10	Pedro
City	90	90	90	90	0	90	90	62	0	90	73	90	17	0	28	CHO
Leicester	44	78	90	72	90	46	0	0	46	0	44	90	44	0	90	Gilmour
West Ham	90	90	90	90	0	37	90	27	0	90	63	90	53	0	63	Emerson
Watford	90	76	0	90	90	76	0	76	90	90	90	78	0	0	14	RLC
Palace	90	90	0	90	90	90	0	65	90	90	65	0	0	10	25
Sheffield Utd	90	90	45	66	90	45	45	34	75	45	78	0	0	90	90
Norwich	90	90	90	80	90	0	80	85	10	0	23	0	90	90	5
Manchester Utd	90	80	90	0	90	90	90	80	90	0	0	0	85	90	10
Liverpool	90	59	90	31	90	59	88	59	90	0	0	0	90	90	31
Total Minutes	854	833	675	644	630	623	573	568	496	495	471	438	434	370	366
% of Total Possible	94.88888889	92.55555556	75	71.55555556	70	69.22222222	63.66666667	63.11111111	55.11111111	55	52.33333333	48.66666667	48.22222222	41.11111111	40.66666667

Look at the number of minutes most of our players have had - in a row - during this run. We've hardly got the same quality of depth as Chelsea, and that means the likes of Rashford, Bruno and 18-year-old Greenwood are taking on far more responsibility that they should. Clubs with similarly bare squad depth are losing players left, right and centre - look at Bournemouth, Sheffield, Villa or even Leicester - our players have insane fitness as compared to these clubs, Ole has definitely improved our fitness else we would have lost more than just Shaw to injury.

Great post.