Yeah. His reluctance to try the difficult pass was more obvious last season so I'm hoping it's down to combinations of low confidence, and specific instructions from Moyes.
These are the kind of balls I want to see Cleverley playing, because he has it in his locker, but never has the confidence to try anything out of the ordinary, unfortunately.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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We know thats the case. All of our CMs were instructed to retain possession which explains their through ball and key pass drops across the board.
I'm confident Tom will flourish under LvG.
I wouldn't say I had high hope for Tom, but as a squad player he will be useful. Or he could be Everton bound. Who knows?.
I'm not having a dig or anything but how do you know this? Was there an interview with Moyes or is it something you observed and assumed it was a Moyes influence?
I'd expect any CM to be told to try & retain possession.
Cleverley and Fletcher gave interviews basically saying they were playing how Moyes wanted them to.
Head. nail on. the. His confidence has been absolutely shattered into pieces, and its gunna' take something really special to get that back. As much as we crucify him, he does have a pretty good skillset for a modern day midfielder, the problem lies in the fact he's terrified of actually using it. he would rather pass it off to somebody else to make the attempt. Almost a mirror of what's happened to Valencia's form in some ways.
These are the kind of balls I want to see Cleverley playing, because he has it in his locker, but never has the confidence to try anything out of the ordinary, unfortunately.
He's potentially a good squad player to have but not at the level he's been playing for awhile now. If we stick with him, hopefully we don't keep the others who aren't going to be start worthy.
Yep Moyes asked Cleverley to play like an under 15 player. I also heard Moyes made it cloudy and over cast so the banner couldn't be flown over again.
The shit Moyes gets put on him has gone beyond a joke now!
Managers can be ridiculously retarded in their demands. Players like Di Canio, Gazza and David Platt had all struggled in adapting to a rigid way of football which went completely against their nature and talent. Players like Zola, Mata and Baggio were sold because they couldn't fit in the manager's plan.
He's going to prove a lot of people wrong. Have high hopes of him finally turning the tide this season under Van Gaal.
Yeah you're dead right. No way the manager directed the players in how to to play. That never happens. Ever.
Cleverley should be mentioned alongside these players to be honest Devilish
Yep that's right he must have told Tom to play those 5 yard passes back to the same player he received it from or not to tackle. Being told tactics or your role in a formation is different from playing like a banger.
I'd rather keep him purely as he meets the homegrown quota and is reportedly on relatively low wages and less than all of our other midfield options I believe. That isn't ample reason of course, as having the best quality at your disposal is the main issue, but I do think he can prove a more useful asset to the team that than of Fellaini, Fletcher and most certainly Anderson.
Carrick and Herrera are out of the equation, as the former is our only reliable midfielder - in my eyes, despite last season - pre-Herrera and the latter is a quality, new acquisition. If we look to offload Fellaini, we could still recoup a sizable fee, perhaps half of what we paid, as he can still be a dangerous weapon for someone teams, but he simply isn't a central midfielder. In regards to Fletcher, he has lost the key traits which more or less made him the player he is, but it could be a bit pointless offloading him when he isn't on high earnings, wouldn't fetch for much and we are sorely lacking leaders and senior players as it is.
Back on topic, I do believe Cleverley can be revitalised here. I never thought he was capable of becoming an excellent player even when he broke out into the United first team a few years ago, as he simply doesn't have any remarkable aspects to his game. However, he is a player shattered mentally, unable and unwilling to express himself fully on the pitch in the last few years and someone who could thrive in a team player at a faster tempo and relying on plenty of movement. If playing alongside the likes of Herrera, Mata and Kagawa can't revive his game to the best of his abilities in that respect, nothing will.
Sell Fellaini & Anderson. Keep Fletcher and Cleverley. Add another midfielder (Vidal hopefully) and then assess our midfield on January when Strootman might have recovered and become a realistic target.
Carrick and Herrera are out of the equation, as the former is our only reliable midfielder - in my eyes, despite last season - pre-Herrera and the latter is a quality, new acquisition. If we look to offload Fellaini, we could still recoup a sizable fee, perhaps half of what we paid, as he can still be a dangerous weapon for someone teams, but he simply isn't a central midfielder. In regards to Fletcher, he has lost the key traits which more or less made him the player he is, but it could be a bit pointless offloading him when he isn't on high earnings, wouldn't fetch for much and we are sorely lacking leaders and senior players as it is.
Back on topic, I do believe Cleverley can be revitalised here. I never thought he was capable of becoming an excellent player even when he broke out into the United first team a few years ago, as he simply doesn't have any remarkable aspects to his game. However, he is a player shattered mentally, unable and unwilling to express himself fully on the pitch in the last few years and someone who could thrive in a team player at a faster tempo and relying on plenty of movement. If playing alongside the likes of Herrera, Mata and Kagawa can't revive his game to the best of his abilities in that respect, nothing will.
Sell Fellaini & Anderson. Keep Fletcher and Cleverley. Add another midfielder (Vidal hopefully) and then assess our midfield on January when Strootman might have recovered and become a realistic target.
Why keep Fletcher?
I'd be happy going into the new season with Cleverley/Herrera/Carrick and Vidal and selling Felliani/Anderson and Fletcher.
We'd be a bit short until Carrick gets back, but it's a good midfield on paper - Strootman coming in, in January would be great, but hope it's not in place of Cleverley, maybe it's just me but I'd rather Cleverley be in the squad over Carrick.
Considering the whole team was playing a safe percentage game all season it's hardly beyond belief.
Because even coming back from a serious illness he put in a number of better performances than a lot of our other midfielders. He had some poor ones too, not considerably worse than anyone else though, lets see what he can do with a full pre-season behind him, especially as he looks like he's put some more weight on. There's no reason to sell him given he could be a very usueful experienced player to have around. Plus it would seem very harsh to not at least give him a chance to prove he can get back to things after all he's been through. Plus he can play the deeper role, and so is the alternative to Carrick.
Tbh if we did sign Vidal I'd worry for Clev considerably. He's going to be in competition with Herrera/Vidal not Carrick/Fletch. He'd be a useful squad player to have but for his own development in that situation he might want to leave.
He shouldn't
However my point wasn't to compare these players but merely to show what bad management can do.
Do you know that at one point Roberto Baggio wasn't even allowed to train with Inter? He was literally kicked out of Inter and had to keep himself fit all by himself. Carlo Mazzone saved Baggio's career by taking him to Brescia. We're talking here about a player who used to be the first in the training ground and the last one to leave. However Lippi never liked him and his people spread the word that he was fecked up (Mazzone words)
Lippi was the manager at that time and not some mid table club manager like Moyes
As he is just one of four senior players in our squad along with Carrick, Rooney and van Persie. He's not nearly the player he once was, but keeping him wouldn't be a deterrent to other signings.
Having four midfielders in Carrick, Herrera, Cleverley and Vidal isn't much of a difference to adding Fletcher to that group. We wouldn't receive much in the way of transfer funds for him and we've already recouped a lot in wages following Evra, Vidic and Rio's departures. With Carrick injured, it would allow Fletcher games in the domestic cup games, while Cleverley would still be third choice midfielder for three months or so.
As I said in my initial post, reassess the midfield come January. If we are struggling with injuries or Strootman is attainable then sign him, but it's not a hasty decision and can wait till January.
Managers can definitely influence players but was there really a considerable difference to how Clev played last season to how he played the season before? I don't think so personally. Certainly the drop in level was nowhere near the same as others. I'm sure Moyes can be blamed for part of the problem but for me I think there's definitely a large chunk of his own poor performances which is down to him. I know Carrick wasn't exactly at his best either but despite being the deeper player he was still looking to make things happen a lot more than Clev was.
I strongly believe that Cleverley will end up a squad player. However there's nothing to suggest that he isn't better then he had actually shown last season. I mean everyone (apart from DDG) had under performed last season
I also think that he won't end up in the firing line. He's young, a homegrown talent and I doubt he command a big salary. We've got bigger names whose equally crap to him
If you want to argue with how the managers influence them, argue with Cleverley and Fletcher. They're the ones who said it. Unless you know better than them what happened between the midfielders and Moyes?
I'm sure he can play better, I just think there was more to his poor performances than Moyes because for me it wasn't like he dropped off from the prior season in the same ways others did, I'm not sure how much better he can be.
I don't see him being forced out but I think he'll struggle. He can't hold like Carrick/Fletch and he's going to be behind Herrera at the very least and if we did sign Vidal, him as well. At 25 by the season start he doesn't want to be potentially 3rd choice for his spot in the team just for his own development. And for me unlike when Fletch was in a similar position when Hargreaves/Ando arrived I don't think he's shown enough to suggest he's going to suddenly turn it around.
If he's happy in that role then that's good for us, it's always good to have squad players who know the club. I'm not sure if he will be though and whilst not immediately I'd like to see that 5th spot if Vidal does come, go to a younger player who might well go onto push for a regular spot in the future rather than someone who is unlikely to improve much playing a bit part role.
We've got too many quality no 10s not to play them. So unless we change our system to a sort of 3-5-1-1 then I can see us play with just 2 CM.
Now lets say we get a quality DM (Vidal?). Then we would have Vidal-Herrera as first teamers. The rest would be Carrick, Fletcher, Fellaini, Ando and Cleverley.
Carrick is the best of the lot but he's already showing some signs of decline. Fletcher is a pale shadow of his former self. I fear that Fellaini is on a big salary and he's unsuitable to VG's game and Ando is a goner.
Under such circumstances I only see Carrick ahead of Clev in the reserves pecking order. I wont be surprised if we have Carrick acting as cover/competitor to the new DM, Cleverley would cover for Herrera and we keep another CM just to be safe (I bet he would be Fletcher UNLESS we do not manage to offload Fellaini)
I see the obligatory YouTube videos are out; never understood that angle for an argument. Any player can look good in one so it really isn't saying anything. Cleverley, for me, was starting to stagnate and then he regressed last season. His lack of bottle on the pitch and his complete lack of confidence to try anything other than the overly-simple is staggering.
He simply hasn't developed into the player that many had hoped and at best, he can be an adequate squad player. I'm not overly-fussed whether he stays or goes. Although, I would probably be in favour of giving him a season under LvG and see how he is utilised / performs. A drastic improvement is needed, one of monumental propositions, to be honest.
He simply hasn't developed into the player that many had hoped and at best, he can be an adequate squad player. I'm not overly-fussed whether he stays or goes. Although, I would probably be in favour of giving him a season under LvG and see how he is utilised / performs. A drastic improvement is needed, one of monumental propositions, to be honest.
I remember after his sacking stories came out about the unrest behind the scenes and one of the things listed was the tactical decision for our midfielders to pass the ball to our wingers and not create anything themselves, which shows in the season stats when you compare the same players to 12/13.
I think we'll play two of the midfielders as well. Even in a 352 Mata would have to be the extra player in the middle, although Carrick would easily fit in as one of the 3 in defence.
I think Carrick still has enough to get by fine this season, especially as we won't have europe. I think some people underestimate the difference it will make for him having a midfielder in Herrera and definitely Vidal (if he comes) who will properly do their share in the middle. I think Fletch might surprise people with a full pre-season. I don't expect him to get back to where he was but he can be a useful squad player who can come in and be the more defensive player.
That for is the problem with Clev. Vidal could sit but if you want to see the best of him you either let him be box to box with Herrera or you pair him with someone who will defend more, i.e. Carrick/Fletch. Certainly for me I can't see how any combination of Clev and x would be stronger than Carrick and x and if Fletch gets his fitness up it's the same.
We do need to look at a replacement for Carrick no doubt as he won't last much longer (although I think in the right set up his game naturally lends itself to playing in to his late 30s).
It really depends who comes in. If its Vidal, I think he's more box to box than a holder at the moment and in that situation Clev is 5th choice overall at best for me, same if we sign any other good box to box player instead of Vidal. If we bring in a more defensive player than maybe he'll be Herrera's understudy but again I can still see him behind Carrick as you said and if we get back to europe I'm not sure if he's stay understudy for long.
Either way he's either 3/4th choice as it stands right now with no additions and potentially 4/5th choice with additions. Again I'm not sure at this stage in his career he would want that role and it's understandable if its the case. At the end of the day for us it would be nice if he stayed as he can be useful but if he did go it just free's up a spot to let a younger player have a go.
Your point being that it was a clash of personality with Lippi and Baggio as with Cleverley it's about ability. He is not a bad player he's decent but not United standard if we are wanting to win leagues and trophies.
If he was told not to tackle I wonder what Carrick and Fletcher were told who tackled less than Cleverley. His average pass length was 17m with Carricks and Fletch's being 18m and Fellaini's 15m.
I'm not sticking up for any of them though. But id be surprised if Fellaini who is derided as the worst never won more tackles and passed the ball forward more than Cleverley. Because imo Cleverley has been dreadful and it makes me cringe when I see his name on the team sheet as Gibson was a better player and he wasn't up to it either.
I think in terms of ability, Cleverley is technically very good.
He just doesn't have the presence, or the bottle. More of a mental thing with him than a technical.
He just doesn't have the presence, or the bottle. More of a mental thing with him than a technical.
Odd clip. Most of those bits of action are good play!
It's definitely his best shot. Probably one of the better suited players we have to van Gaal's brand of football. Whether he actually has it in him to take proper responsibility remains to be seen.
Fellaini did average more tackles hence why I didn't say his name. Only barely though making a tackle about every 31 minutes and Cleverley every 32 minutes. Cleverley also passed the ball forward 62.5% of the time while Fellaini did 61.3% of the time. So there you are, surprised.
The only reason Fellaini makes more tackles is because his 2nd touch usually is one.
Maybe they also include his elbows in those stats.
As bad as he was last season and that he has obvious weakness, still (hope) think he has enough to offer in a well functioning team. Shown that he has intelligent movement and performs well when the team is playing at a good tempo. Shares understanding and plays better alongside technical players in a more modern style of football. Be interesting to see if Van Gaal's influence can have an effect.
I reckon in LVG philosophy, he will excel, he has always tried to imitate iniesta, but Moyes had a feck all system, i reckon he could be a good backup for herrera
Here is hoping! Remember having such high hopes for Cleverley particularly in interview when he said who he modeled his game on. That he came through the system further fueled my wish for him to succeed.
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