Tom Thorpe

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I see he got Man of the Match last night....havent seen nor heard much of him so far this season. Hes our brightest defensive prospect imo. Always seems to have time and space on the ball. His composure in partucular stands out a mile. Hopefully he continues to mature and improve.

How highly do folks here rate him?
 

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I see he got Man of the Match last night....havent seen nor heard much of him so far this season. Hes our brightest defensive prospect imo. Always seems to have time and space on the ball. His composure in partucular stands out a mile. Hopefully he continues to mature and improve.

How highly do folks here rate him?
He stood out in an otherwise lukewarm performance from us yesterday. Like so many of the actual talents in the U21s, he's suffering from the mess that they're in at the moment. Best two players from a great generation are gone, the weaker ones from that team are hanging around but don't look likely to go anywhere. Many of the next year-group down are stuck on the sidelines by our continued refusal to get rid of those who clearly haven't got a future here. And whilst we've done the right thing finally sending Keane and Lingard on loan, it's only added to the imbalance in the side.

He's alright as a DM at this stage (as he showed yesterday), but any future at a higher level will come at CB. He's imperious in the air. Wootton, who should either be moved on or loaned out, is preventing him from getting the games there at the moment. Danger of stagnation.
 

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Agreed he is a centre half who has been shunted into midfield, but he looks a very good player. Having said that, he's yet to stand out at this level any more than Cathcart or James Chester. Jonny Evans looked about 3-4 classes above any other defender we have had in the youths in the last few years, and Thorpe (at the moment!) is a good way off that standard.
 

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Agreed. It's always harder to tell with defenders at this age than with midfielders or forwards, but its safe to say the majority of the real talent we've got coming through at U21s and U18s level is creative and attacking.

Tunnicliffe was a tricky one yesterday. For most of the match we saw his bad side really: a limited player who wasn't really needed alongside another defensive midfielder. But once Lawrence came on and made our line-up look a bit more sensible, we suddenly saw the best of him. He was everywhere on the pitch, buzzing with energy as if the game had just kicked off, and looked a class above the Newcastle players on the ball too. I've rarely seen a player whose top and bottom levels are so far apart.
 

KingEric7

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He was quite good actually, but playing Tunnicliffe and Thorpe in the same midfield is a dry combination. Agree with Brightonian - was far, far better when Lawrence came on. In Petrucci's absence, I think we should be starting him more. Class on the ball and often has a goal in him.
 

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What do you guys think of Fornasier? I never seem to get a sense of how he's playing, no matter how much I watch him. Our CBs were doing too much lumping upfield and not enough actual passing yesterday, but that could have had more to do with Wootton than him. Who would you prefer to start at the back, him or Thorpe?
 

SkeppyRed

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I just read an interview with Warren Joyce on the OS from after last nights game which kind of answers both your points.

He says that a lack of midfielders and plenty of defenders has forced Thorpe into midfield for the time being and he has done well there but would prefer to play at the back.

He also says Lawrence did well and is only just getting to a point were he is ready to start games as this is his longest run of training without injuries for over a year.

With the players left we could still have an impressive and exciting reserve side if everyone is fit and available.

Eg;

--------------Johnstone-------------

Vermil---Thorpe---Wooton----Blackett

----------Tunnicliffe--Powell---------

Januzaj-------Lawrence----------Cole

----------------King-----------------

EDIT: I forgot Petrucci, who can play anywhere in the midfield.
 

KingEric7

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What do you guys think of Fornasier? I never seem to get a sense of how he's playing, no matter how much I watch him. Our CBs were doing too much lumping upfield and not enough actual passing yesterday, but that could have had more to do with Wootton than him. Who would you prefer to start at the back, him or Thorpe?

Sort of mid level defensive prospect in my opinion - haven't noticed any particularly outstanding attributes. Don't make too much of his chances. Rate Thorpe and Keane higher, and that's before going on to talk about Smalling, Jones and Evans.

Definitely doesn't have that "shit, he's definitely gonna make it here" factor that Evans had whilst in the reserves as is stated above. He was several classes above Keane, never mind your Woottons, Fornasiers, etc.
 

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--------------Johnstone-------------

Vermil---Thorpe---Wooton----Blackett

----------Tunnicliffe--Powell---------

Januzaj-------Lawrence----------Cole

----------------King-----------------

EDIT: I forgot Petrucci, who can play anywhere in the midfield.
This is the sort of thing I want to see. Basically, we need to shunt Macheda and Bebe. They're a serious impediment to the development of players who might make it here.

Sort of mid level defensive prospect in my opinion - haven't noticed any particularly outstanding attributes. Don't make too much of his chances. Rate Thorpe and Keane higher, and that's before going on to talk about Smalling, Jones and Evans.

Definitely doesn't have that "shit, he's definitely gonna make it here" factor that Evans had whilst in the reserves as is stated above. He was several classes above Keane, never mind your Woottons, Fornasiers, etc.
Cheers, roughly what I thought.
 

Elliott

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Agreed he is a centre half who has been shunted into midfield, but he looks a very good player. Having said that, he's yet to stand out at this level any more than Cathcart or James Chester. Jonny Evans looked about 3-4 classes above any other defender we have had in the youths in the last few years, and Thorpe (at the moment!) is a good way off that standard.
I'm drawing a complete blank trying to remember Cathcart at reserve level. Outstanding for the academy though. Chester was a very good defender for the ressies but Thorpe's clearly a better footballer. I agree with the op, our best defensive prospect along with Keane.
 

jb8521

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I think hes a better natural defender than Keane but Keane is ahead of him in the first team reckoning because of his ability on the ball and I think this is one of the reasons Thorpe is playing in midfield. His ability on the ball and all round game has improved a lot by playing in the midfield and hes a lot more calm with the ball at his feet than he used to be
 

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I haven't been very impressed with Fornasier, he's okay but he's not especially quick to react to trouble, nor especially imposing.

I'd like to see more of Thorpe at CB, along with Wootton and Keane he should be starting there ahead of Fornasier.

Here are the defensive stats for each player, and the CB pairings for each game, if the match reports are reliable.


Code:
| Player    | goals per game | games | total goals |  goals in each game   | 

| Thorpe    |       0.8      |   5   |      4      | 0,2,2,0,0               |
| Evans     |       1.0      |   1   |      1      | 1                   |
| Wootton   |       1.0      |   6   |      6      | 2,0,1,1,1,1           |
| Fornasier |       1.45     |  11   |     16      | 2,0,2,0,2,0,3,1,4,1,1 |
| Blackett  |       1.5      |   2   |      3      | 2,1                   |
| Keane     |       2.0      |   5   |     10      | 1,1,3,1,4             |
| Veseli    |       2.0      |   1   |      2      | 2                     |
Veseli Wootton (Drayton) 2
Blackett Fornasier (F. Green) 2
Thorpe Fornasier (Accrington) 0
Wootton Thorpe (Stoke) 0
Keane Evans (Spurs) 1
Thorpe Fornasier (Stalybridge) 2
Wootton Keane (Bury) 1
McCullough Fornasier (Bury) 0
Thorpe Fornasier (Nwcstl) 2
Thorpe Fornasier (Sndrlnd) 0
Keane Fornasier (Sthhmptn) 3
Keane Fornasier (Bolton) 1
Wootton Blackett (Stockport) 1
Keane Fornasier (Spurs) 4
Wootton Fornasier (Stoke) 1
Wootton Fornasier (Nwcstl) 1

[I've left out the Aberdeen friendly and the closed door matches where the CB pairing is uncertain but included the reserve pre-season games.]
 

gooDevil

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(Moved this question from the matchday thread vs. Morecambe.)

What do you guys think of Thorpe in midfield?

I can't say I've watched him all that closely, but when he's in midfield the games tend to be a bit cagey like this, and lack some creativity.

And if you look at the 'goals allowed average' for our CBs this year, Thorpe is right at the top with Wootton, both averaging less than a goal conceded per game when playing CB. No one else in the reserve squad is under 1.5.




GOALS ALLOWED AVERAGE
Code:
| [U]Center Backs[/U]      |  [U]G[/U]   |  [U]GA[/U]  |  [U][B]GAA[/B][/U]   | [U]GG[/U]                        |  

| Scott [B]WOOTTON[/B]     |   7  |   6  |  [B]0.86[/B]  | 2,0,1,1,1,1,0             | 
| Tom [b]THORPE[/b]        |   9  |   8  |  [B]0.88[/B]  | 0,1,0,2,2,0,2,1,0         | 
| Jonny [B]EVANS [/B]      |   1  |   1  |  [B]1.00[/B]  | 1                         |
| Luke [B]MCCULLOUGH[/B]   |   2  |   3  |  [B]1.50[/B]  | 2,1                       |
| Michele [B]FORNASIER[/B] |  13  |  20  |  [B]1.54[/B]  | 2,0,2,2,0,3,1,4,1,1,1,2,1 |
| Tyler [B]BLACKETT[/B]    |   3  |   5  |  [B]1.67[/B]  | 2,1,2                     | 
| Frederic [B]VESELI [/B]  |   1  |   2  |  [B]2.00[/B]  | 2                         |
| Michael [b]KEANE[/b]     |   6  |  13  |  [B]2.17[/B]  | 1,1,1,3,1,4               |
G=Games
GA=Goals Allowed
GAA=Goals Allowed Average
GG=Goals in each Games
 

Elliott

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Some stellar statistical work there, mate.

He's put in plenty of good performances in midfield, including one or two MOMs, but at the end of the day he's in there for developmental reasons, me thinks. He's another one I'd like to see go out on loan.
 

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Thanks, I'll keep it updated in the Stats thread.

That makes perfect sense, of course, and I like that technique in general. With Brady and Lingard on loan, and Powell seemingly kept back for the first team, it was a good game to play him.
 

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I wonder if the fact he hasn't gone on loan yet is a compliment to him. It reminds me a bit of how we handled Cleverley, who played a season at LB to strengthen his defensive play for the reserves and didn't go out on loan until he was 19 (not 20!).

Tom just turned 20 eleven days ago, btw.
 

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Cleverley went on loan to League 1 at 19, no ?
 

Cevno

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I guess we could send out Thorpe straight up to the Championship.

Cleverley is unique in the way his progression has gone.
 

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always liked Thorpe. has captained England at youth level (not a huge indicator of anything really though).
 

Elliott

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Judging by Getty Images'...ehrm..images, Thorpe and Powell were the only u21 players training with the first team today. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Tom get a cameo or two once the league's wrapped up.
 

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He, Vermijl, Lingard, Powell and Januzaj will probably be the likeliest.
 

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Always liked him when I've seen him but his lack of opportunities in the first team and loans elsewhere suggest the club might think otherwise, especially when others like Pogba, Morisson and M Keane have really kicked on since the Youth Cup win.
 

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If Thorpe had grown like Michael Keane did, he would probably have played in the League Cup by now.

Next year.
 

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Doubt we will completely play our U21 team tbh and he's not been great this season.
 

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Statistically Thorpe has been the best CB in the reserves this season. And that's also with most of his starts at CB coming during the 2nd, more difficult phase of the U21 League. It would be hard to argue Keane has been better when we've conceded 11 goals in his 7 starts at CB, while Thorpe's 14 starts at CB have seen only 10 goals allowed.
 

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Statistically Thorpe has been the best CB in the reserves this season. And that's also with most of his starts at CB coming during the 2nd, more difficult phase of the U21 League. It would be hard to argue Keane has been better when we've conceded 11 goals in his 7 starts at CB, while Thorpe's 14 starts at CB have seen only 10 goals allowed.
Think that's a very simplistic way of judging who's been better - it's not like they've been the only defender playing. It doesn't take into account the make-up/strength of our team or the ability of the opposition - for example, as many have rightly noted, we've set up in a much less adventurous way for most of the second half of the season due to the players available to Joyce, so it stands to reason we'll have conceded less goals in that period.
 

sincher

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The fact that Keane has successfully made a huge leap up in playing standard at Leicester has to put him ahead of Thorpe for now. The height is a big reason why he has been pushed forward more though.
 

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Height/leap/heading ability and Strength too.
 

gooDevil

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After seeing United conceded a goal at Wolves last weekend, Tom Thorpe has now see United concede 3 goals in his last 9 starts at center back. Not all entirely up to him of course, but when he's at center back we concede very few goals.



GOALS ALLOWED AVERAGE
Code:
| [U]Center Backs[/U]      |  [U]G[/U]   |  [U]GA[/U]  |  [U][B]GAA[/B][/U]   | [U]GG[/U]                                              |  

| Chris [B]SMALLING[/B]    |   1  |   0  |  [B]0.00[/B]  | 0                                               |
| Tom [b]THORPE[/b]        |  17  |  11  |  [B]0.65[/B]  | 0,1,0,2,2,0,2,1,0,0,0,0,0,2,0,0,1               |
| Sean [B]MCGINTY[/B]      |   3  |   2  |  [B]0.67[/B]  | 0,0,2                                           |
| Scott [B]WOOTTON[/B]     |   7  |   6  |  [B]0.86[/B]  | 2,0,1,1,1,1,0                                   | 
| Jonny [B]EVANS [/B]      |   1  |   1  |  [B]1.00[/B]  | 1                                               |
| Michele [B]FORNASIER[/B] |  24  |  27  |  [B]1.13[/B]  | 2,0,2,2,0,3,1,4,1,1,1,2,1,0,1,0,2,3,0,0,0,0,0,0 |
| Luke [B]MCCULLOUGH[/B]   |   2  |   3  |  [B]1.50[/B]  | 2,1                                             |
| Frederic [B]VESELI [/B]  |   2  |   3  |  [B]1.50[/B]  | 2,1                                             |
| Michael [b]KEANE[/b]     |   7  |  11  |  [B]1.57[/B]  | 1,1,1,3,1,4,0                                   | 
| Reece [B]BROWN[/B]       |   3  |   5  |  [B]1.67[/B]  | 0,2,3                                           |
| Tyler [B]BLACKETT[/B]    |   3  |   5  |  [B]1.67[/B]  | 2,1,2                                           |

For me this reserve season has been much more about good defense than good offense, it's been our backbone and the reason our relatively small offensive output has been enough to win most our games. He's been the best defensive presence in the team, for me he's the clear reserve player of the season.
 

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Really? I have to say that I haven't really noticed him, but maybe that's just how I watch games I'll try to take more notice in the future. Could you imagine if Michael was playing at the club as well.
 

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The stats imply that Wootton was the more effective defender in the reserves between himself and Michael Keane. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I though he was better for the reserves this year than Keane. As far as their loans though I haven't seen more than a very few highlights.

I think Keane has more potential in the long term, being a year and half younger as well, but Wootton is a very direct and aggressive defender, he gets on his man faster than Keane and won the ball more often, IIRC.

Saying that, I don't think Wootton has a chance to be a United player, and I think Michael Keane does.