While I loved van basten and feared him whenever he played against "my" team, the answer is Gerd Müller.
Top 10 greatest players of all time
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Luis Ronaldo Nazario de Lima 1996 to 1998 is an unbeatable choice for the CF position.
Messi's my favorite player ever, but I do genuinely think Maradona's conduction with the ball was better by the tiniest of margins.
Also for the bolded: That was true of Maradona too. His outlier otherworldly talent was evident from the start.
I have a hard time comparing the two directly, because of the different context surrounding the two. Maradona played during an era where attacking players were barely protected at all, brutalized by tackles(that would be reds all day nowadays) and it simply wasn't advantageous as it is now for talented attackers. The back-pass rule wasn't implemented during Maradona's prime. The pitches favored defenders way more than attackers. He spent his prime years during the most defensive league ever. The same league had the best collection of talent widespread in a league arguably surpassing any league before or since. Nutritional and training methods weren't as advanced as today. He had a lot of obstacles(along with his personal issues) to overcome. His '86 World Cup exploits still likely remain the highest level a footballer ever reached.
Not to diminish Messi's extraordinary talent and exploits, but I do think it was harder for Maradona to succeed than it was for Messi.
In terms of who's better, I honestly have a very hard time picking. Even including Pele in that. I really think all 3 of them are so close, you're splitting hairs.
Absolutely, and any other opinion is simply wrong. They are all at the same level.
One thing it's Ronaldo as a player, the quality and excitement he brings to the game and of course his goalscoring ability, another it's him among the best to ever do it being a goalscorer. When we think in an all time term, there is nothing as an unbeateable choice with fellas like Romario, the mentioned Van Basten or even less gifted, yet gifted anyway specialits like Muller or even all rounders that some even started as more CF oriented as Di Stefano and such.
For all the talent he had, he never was precisly the most lethal finisher out there even in his prime (nor as clever and cunning as someone like Romario was, that BTW was gifted as fvck) and there are other players that could provide what he had of being a one man army as a forward if the chosen CF it's more goal oriented. Of course there shouldn't any sort of complain if R9 is the chosen one, not a single one.
Romario has got to be in the discussion too.
Yeah, this is what genuinely find confusing. For me (and not only me), the difference is obvious. Styles are quite similar, but Messi has ball closer to his feet when moving at high speed. He keeps more control and balance when changing direction and evading (or absorbing) tackles. His shoulder drop / burst of pace is consistently devastating, and precision is simply on a higher level.
No, it's not about the quality of the pitch - I find this argument really exaggerated, and I already explained why. If anything, today's more organized and athletic defenses tend to diminish football artists' role in the game - a common and valid argument. Regardless, Messi has also played in tough conditions many times, and the difference was still there to see.
I mean, Messi is one of the best and most consistent goalscorers ever, and huge part of that comes from being able to create chances for himself, and score goals out of nothing with perfect combination of control and accuracy. Maradona doesn't even enter that conversation. And it's not like goals weren't scored in Maradona's times.
I understand when people prefer Maradona, because there are many reasons to see him as the best: flair, imagination, charisma, even nostalgia for more romantic football times. But when it comes to pure football ability, Messi simply has to be the winner.
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I'm not really sure how Maradona doesn't even enter that conversation. I struggle to see where he falls short in creating chances and scoring goals out of nothing as it was his entire MO during his career. Give him the ball in a crowded midfield, a long way from goal, and very often, within seconds, there would be a goalscoring opportunity for the opposition to defend.
If it's simply about the number of goals he scored during his career, then it fails to reflect the different conditions that players operated in during different eras. He didn't rack up the big numbers the modern attackers do because:
- his teams scored around 40-50% fewer goals because that was normal and all part of the defensive and attritional nature of the game at the time.
- they played fewer games. In 7 seasons at Napoli he averaged 43 games for club and country a year. Over his best 7 years at Barcelona Messi played 63 for club and country on average (47% more)
The only analysis I've seen that makes a decent fist of contextualising the numbers across eras is from Trachta10 on X who benchmarks on the number of goals and assists as a contribution to each player's team. All of a sudden their outputs look a lot more comparable.
For every coin, there are two sides, you can choose one as your preferred one, yet the other one doesn't cease to exist nor makes the one we choose a greater truth or more important.
Messi can have an edge in some aspects, but Diego would have it on others, it's not just charisma, or nostalgia. And again styles aren't that similar, it's quite easy to spot it.
If you actually watched them, you'll see that the names I've mentioned before are closer in style to Messi than Diego (even physically).
PD: Maradona it's one of the most prolific goalscorers mids ever and had a great goal ratio when playing as a more forward oriented player in his youth, the creating chances out of nothing can be define in just one word: "Maradona". At times you complain with some complains, yet you have a tendency for the hiperbole or choose your view and choices as written in stone facts with some senetnce that even not intended, it ends being at least odd.
I'm not really sure how Maradona doesn't even enter that conversation. I struggle to see where he falls short in creating chances and scoring goals out of nothing as it was his entire MO during his career. Give him the ball in a crowded midfield, a long way from goal, and very often, within seconds, there would be a goalscoring opportunity for the opposition to defend.
If it's simply about the number of goals he scored during his career, then it fails to reflect the different conditions that players operated in during different eras. He didn't rack up the big numbers the modern attackers do because:
Together that has a huge impact on the figures.
- his teams scored around 40-50% fewer goals because that was normal and all part of the defensive and attritional nature of the game at the time.
- they played fewer games. In 7 seasons at Napoli he averaged 43 games for club and country a year. Over his best 7 years at Barcelona Messi played 63 for club and country on average (47% more)
The only analysis I've seen that makes a decent fist of contextualising the numbers across eras is from Trachta10 on X who benchmarks on the number of goals and assists as a contribution to each player's team. All of a sudden their outputs look a lot more comparable.
Bigsoccer it's full of weirdos, I'll take with a pinch of salt any stats there.
Yet indeed Maradona was the epithome of creating out of nothing. As true as Messi's goals for a player that also played quite a portion of his carreer as a mid, with an urge (and edge) to score, while providing tons of assists and vital passes it's outstanding. Both with their tendencies, very team oriented players.
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Brilliant postI'm not really sure how Maradona doesn't even enter that conversation. I struggle to see where he falls short in creating chances and scoring goals out of nothing as it was his entire MO during his career. Give him the ball in a crowded midfield, a long way from goal, and very often, within seconds, there would be a goalscoring opportunity for the opposition to defend.
If it's simply about the number of goals he scored during his career, then it fails to reflect the different conditions that players operated in during different eras. He didn't rack up the big numbers the modern attackers do because:
Together that has a huge impact on the figures.
- his teams scored around 40-50% fewer goals because that was normal and all part of the defensive and attritional nature of the game at the time.
- they played fewer games. In 7 seasons at Napoli he averaged 43 games for club and country a year. Over his best 7 years at Barcelona Messi played 63 for club and country on average (47% more)
The only analysis I've seen that makes a decent fist of contextualising the numbers across eras is from Trachta10 on X who benchmarks on the number of goals and assists as a contribution to each player's team. All of a sudden their outputs look a lot more comparable.
I just don't think anyone would put Maradona among the top goalscorers ever. Not that he wasn't scoring goals at a decent rate, and quite spectacular ones. However you contextualize, Messi's numbers are on a different level, and in my opinion the difference can be observed at the skill level. Anyway, these discussions are often quite uncharitable to contemporary players - apparently everything was more difficult back then. I disagree.
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He basically played as an overall attacking conduit for his teams, never being the most advanced player on the pitch nor prioritizing goalscoring , it's evident when you watch his games with just how often he'd play close to his own box at times which may only be comparable to late stage Messi who took an increasingly bigger burden of playmaking as the Barcelona's midfield decline became much more evident.
I'd bet his shot conversion rate and similar offensive stats are quite similar to Messi's and were he to play in our modern times im sure he'd basically be utilized the same way as Messi was for most of his career I.e much more offensive minded.
Compare the goal that Maradona scored against England with the very similar goal that Messi scored against Getafe. Who had greater control of the ball? Whose touch was more precise? Watch the goals again if you want. I know these are isolated examples, but I think it goes against your idea that Messi's touch was significantly better.
You could argue that Messi was younger at that time, but he could still dribble brilliantly then. He's definitely moving faster.
See above
Thats a particular weapon that Messi has that Maradona didn't have in the same way. He'd be more likely to use another move.
Disagree with your points on this
i don't think that is what has diminshed artists. It's more to do with coaching.
i dont think it was. Messi lived his life more professionally, and so was a more consistent performer, especially beyond 30. But peak for peak, it's very close
Maradona started off being a prolific goalscorer, but he dropped deeper in order to have more control of the game (and also as he acquired other teammates that were also able to score goals - he's been quoted as saying that for A Juniors, he scored all the goals because there was no one else to score any. He scored 116 goals in 166 games for them.
He scored 182 goals in 264 games before going to Napoli. At Napoli, the rate dropped because of the aforementioned reasons, and also because the Italian league at that time was extremely defensive. But he still scored a lot of goals for Napoli. Obviously after Napoli, his numbers fell off a cliff because he was a spent force. But for a large chunk of his career, he was prolific.
We can see the importance of teammates and playing in a deeper position when we look at the difference between Messi's scoring for Barcelona and the relatively slower rate at which he nets for Argentina. It was very slow a decade ago, but he's picked up the pace in recent years.
They were, but as I said, the most famous part of Maradona's club career was in a very defensive environment in Italy. Just look at the top scorers:
84-85 Platini, 18 goals
85-86 Pruzzo, 19 goals
86-87 Virdis, 17 goals
87-88 Maradona 15 goals
88-89 Serena, 22 goals
89-90 Van Basten, 19 goals
I mean, this went beyond Italy. After the 1990 World Cup, they decided to change the rules of the game. That's how bad it was.
No, it is a matter of opinion, and as I said, it is very close. People do prefer Maradona for all those reasons, but another one (and one that I keep harping on about and people keep ignoring) is that he had much less to work with in terms of teammates. A big part of his legend is that he won with guys that are not also Hall of Famers. None of the other GOATS can say this.
Re overall football ability, I'll put it like this, and ask you a question. The World Cup is the ultimate prize in football and the biggest stage in the sport, with the most pressure.
Maradona's two greatest goals in that competition were the second goal against England, in the quarter final of 1986, and the second goal against Belgium, in the semi final of 1986. What two goals scored by Messi in the World Cup would you put up against those two as demonstrating his superior footballing ability?
Yes. The difference is there. Firstly, defending is way more intense. And Messi manages to beat the defense because he moves quicker and has better close control at full speed. His goal, in my opinion, required higher level of anticipation, speed of reaction, and balance. If you don't see it like that, we just see things differently and disagree on this point.
Too much talk, let's grab a whisky and enjoy...
PD: That first frame used as Cover, very NBA logo alike
PD: That first frame used as Cover, very NBA logo alike
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The most romanticized too, mainly because it was the only stage at one point where people could actually witness players from other parts of the world and even actually be surprise. Later it kept it's aura, doing sthg brilliant there feels different, earns more praise than anything, yet it's not intrinsically the ultimate barometer.
I get why you think that way, yet the same situations, context that sometimes can prevent a player to do sthg, better in classic KO competitions like CL, Libertadores, Euros or Copas work on them.
Not few times the really Genius alike, that we all know do not lack drive and talent, lacked a bit of timing in any of those among many reasons. I would never like you not consider Cristiano as a contender for the best ever (GOAT stuff that of course I do not comulgue) because he (so far) does not have a WC in his cabinet, or didn't have his greatest perfomances/numbers in those. This doesn't take a bit of considering the WC as one of the most wanted Cup for most footballers and fans.
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It's not just the output difference.
You are completely disregarding the fact that Messi won a record 8 Pichichis, a record 6 Golden Shoes and 6 UCL top-scorer award, Maradona is nowhere near. Messi is in the same league as Gerd Muller, Puskas, Pele when it comes to goalscoring, Maradona not. Maradona & Messi are only comparable in playmaking & dribbling.
No need to rewrite history portraying Maradona as some sort of goalscoring GOAT like Messi. Even, he wouldn't call himself that.
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How many people even on this site could name multiple players from the Napoli team that Maradona won titles with?
Any all time great discussion involving Messi/Ronaldo which leans heavily on their statistical dominance must accept that their massive numbers are heavily influenced by heading some of the most stacked super teams of all time.
Any all time great discussion involving Messi/Ronaldo which leans heavily on their statistical dominance must accept that their massive numbers are heavily influenced by heading some of the most stacked super teams of all time.
That's where individual awards come into play.
Messi dominated most individual goalscoring awards like no other (hello CR7) in his era, while Maradona far from that. Nobody would call Maradona as the greatest goalscorer in 80s or early 90s let alone an all-timer in goalscoring.
Not to mention Messi scored 91 goals in a calendar year and he was not even a striker, 23 more than the next best in his generation, and around 50% more than Haaland's calendar year stats in his famous debut. This is how you dominate your era in goalscoring, different levels.
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We do. Every touch with Maradona's goal is perfect. There's a great video of it from a camera behind Shilton's goal that really illustrates this. Messi's goal is a great goal also, obviously, but it's a bit more haphazard. Even the way they both beat the goalie, Maradona just rolls it past Shilton and then taps it in (with Butcher trying to clobber him from behind) whereas Messi takes it a bit too far wide and is scrambling for the finish.
We can agree to disagree on that, but what's your answer to my question re Messi's best World Cup goals, that showcase his significantly greater ability?
Messi could have scored 41 goals that year and still been the best player in the world. The stats are ridiculous but do have to be contextualized with just how dominant the top teams of the era were, smashing points and goal-scoring records due to the absurdly top heavy confluence of elite talent.
That’s such a lazy argument. Of course he was. He wasn’t a striker earlier on in his career and later on too (say, during the MSN era and after that) but he was absolutely a striker during his goalscoring peak. A peculiar one, a false 9 with a lot of positional freedom, but the entire team was built around maximizing his goalscoring abilities.
Yes, he was more creative that 99% of attackers in history (only a select few all-time great creators had matched or slightly bettered his creative output) on top of scoring 91 goals. But scoring goals was his main goal and the entire team was built around it. It’s not like he had a proper striker up front and had scored those goals as a secondary threat (like, often, Maradona or Platini did). There’s no need to oversell what he did considering that for many fans it’s the highest individual peak by any player that they’ve seen (and even if it isn’t, it’s damn close).
You’re either missing or misrepresenting my point. The idea initially floated was that Maradona wasn't in Messi's league when it came to creating and converting chances out of thin air. If it's a statistical argument, what I shared separates the role of the team and the wider football environment, with the individual contribution of the player. What you have listed reflects Messi's brilliance and the quality of his team-mates.
If it's a technical argument, then what part of Maradona's game falls short when it came to sticking the ball in the net?
I imagine we are probably on the same page though. Although they are remarkably similar, Messi's role was more confined to the final third of the pitch. Maradona was more about both the middle and final thirds and therefore took on more of the creative and playmaking mantle from deeper areas. The stats bear this difference out. But my point is Messi could create from deeper areas, and Maradona could score in the final third. After all, the only time he plays properly as a forward was at Argentinos Juniors where he averaged around a goal-per-game. The real difference isn't so much in their attributes or levels, but in how they were used during their careers and the environment in which they had to perform.
Just a few things:
UCL didn't exist in Maradonna's day.
Only league winners played in European Cup.
Foreign players were banned from being considered for balon d'or until 1995.
The ball was heavier and pads back rule existed as did tackling from behind.
They played less matches overall.
To everyone
I don’t know who are my top ten players. But I only support 3 Manchester United players from the past decade and now.
My top 3
1. David Beckham
2. Ander Herrera
3. Bruno Fernandes
I stand with Manchester United.
I don’t know who are my top ten players. But I only support 3 Manchester United players from the past decade and now.
My top 3
1. David Beckham
2. Ander Herrera
3. Bruno Fernandes
I stand with Manchester United.
...and there was not cameras to catch every foul or VAR, and the attacking players were not protected by the referees like they are today. The stats are apples and oranges. You cannot compare the teams and support that Messi got with Maradonas teams.
Seems not even a great vid can derrail the same old arguments back and forth 
Messi's goal was better tbh. Most of the England defenders where ball watching whereas all the Getafe defenders were actively trying to get the ball off Leo.
Honestly, it is really difficult to compare players from different eras because football has changed so much. For me Messi is greater than Maradona mainly due to longevity but during their youth and respective peaks its very close; in terms of raw ability is very close too.
And therefore the best conclusion that can be reached is that they were the best of their respective times and both in top 3 greatest ever.
As a centre forward, there hasn't been anyone better than R9 those 2-3 seasons.
Which two assists by Maradona would you put up against Messi's assists in the quarter finals and semi finals of the 2022 world cup?
Yes, the world cup is the pinnacle but it comes every 4 years and players may go into the tournament not being in their optimum physical condition or in top form after a grueling season. The team may not gel or the manager may be poor. Luck plays a big part. It is not the be-all and end-all of judging players.
I really think you are underrating Messi, very weird from a Barcelona fan.
If you want to know Messi’s impact for Argentina:
80s: Even with Maradona's genius, they reached a total of 1 final of the wc/ copa America in the 80s, winning the tournament in 1986.
90s: Reached 1 copa America final, winning it in 1993.
2000s: Before Messi, reached one final and lost it.
Overall, total of 3 finals over 25 years.
After Messi:
Total of 7 finals over last 18 years, winning 3 of them.
I think Maradona was a freak of nature talent, once in a century Mozart like genius with the ball, his unique stocky physique just made for being the best dribbler and some of the best technique ever seen. I don’t think even with modern football knowledge and training, there could be a better footballer coming.
But while he had plenty of successes, he simply was not as successful as Pele or Messi in trophies, personal accolades and achievements, and carries around disgraceful moments that Pele and Messi never had. If he was an athlete or cyclist, or even baseball like Barry Bonds, he would be barred from all hall of fames for taking steroids at a World Cup. You can say it was past his peak but it’s still blatant cheating that should tar his legacy. I don’t care that much about the hand of god goal, it’s quite funny but again it’s still a high profile moment of cheating. The drug addictions too could have led to bans in the modern day, it was illegal.
He played so many years in Europe but didn’t really do anything in the European Cup. Even if it was much harder to do something in back then, there were games Napoli should have won. The one thing he had was best player in a World Cup and he’ll always have that, but Messi was almost his equal, a 9/10 WC to Maradona’s 10/10, while having so many other successes over him for teams, stats and individual. Maradona sorta imploded the end of his career through his own bad decisions, it wasn’t all his fault as he had the roughest upbringing of the three which led to personal problems, but that fact remains.
So it depends what you judge the greatest player ever, is it the highest peak or pure talent? In which case Maradona has a strong argument to be number 1. Is it achievements on the pitch? Do you bring in sportmanship and other factors in their greatness? Then Maradona is lagging behind Pele and Messi. His pure talent is still enough to be ahead of the next player, but when you put everything together then it’s different.
But while he had plenty of successes, he simply was not as successful as Pele or Messi in trophies, personal accolades and achievements, and carries around disgraceful moments that Pele and Messi never had. If he was an athlete or cyclist, or even baseball like Barry Bonds, he would be barred from all hall of fames for taking steroids at a World Cup. You can say it was past his peak but it’s still blatant cheating that should tar his legacy. I don’t care that much about the hand of god goal, it’s quite funny but again it’s still a high profile moment of cheating. The drug addictions too could have led to bans in the modern day, it was illegal.
He played so many years in Europe but didn’t really do anything in the European Cup. Even if it was much harder to do something in back then, there were games Napoli should have won. The one thing he had was best player in a World Cup and he’ll always have that, but Messi was almost his equal, a 9/10 WC to Maradona’s 10/10, while having so many other successes over him for teams, stats and individual. Maradona sorta imploded the end of his career through his own bad decisions, it wasn’t all his fault as he had the roughest upbringing of the three which led to personal problems, but that fact remains.
So it depends what you judge the greatest player ever, is it the highest peak or pure talent? In which case Maradona has a strong argument to be number 1. Is it achievements on the pitch? Do you bring in sportmanship and other factors in their greatness? Then Maradona is lagging behind Pele and Messi. His pure talent is still enough to be ahead of the next player, but when you put everything together then it’s different.
I’ll only go with players in my lifetime.
1 - Messi
2 - Cristiano Ronaldo
3 - Luka Modric
4 - Ronaldo Nazario
5 - Zinedine Zidane
6 - Ronaldinho
7 - Andres Iniesta
8 - Paul Scholes
9 - Xavi
10 - Wayne Rooney
1 - Messi
2 - Cristiano Ronaldo
3 - Luka Modric
4 - Ronaldo Nazario
5 - Zinedine Zidane
6 - Ronaldinho
7 - Andres Iniesta
8 - Paul Scholes
9 - Xavi
10 - Wayne Rooney
My posts are about how silly it's to compare a player with 6 Golden Boots + 8 Pichichis + 6 UCL top-scorer plus tons of goalscoring awards & records with Maradona in terms of goalscoring.
91 goal/year is just an example to show how much above he's been above his peers in this era. I have no idea how Maradona entered the goalscoring conversation as he's not in the same league with Messi in that area. Maradona is where he's because of his playmaking, dribbling.
Also, remove Messi's 91 goal calendar year from his resume, he's still above and beyond every single peer in his generation bar CR7 (in UCL) and whatever Maradona did in terms of goal-scoring. Messi won 5 Pichichis in a row when he was in more of a playmaking role between 2016-2021 after Xavi's retirement feeding Suarez. Generational goalscoring ability is in his DNA.
I am using "peers" in my comments to account for generational differences (difficulty in scoring etc.).
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You have skipped WC '90, which is another string to Maradona's bow: he got his team to the final whilst injured and barely able to move, exhibiting his playmaking ability because he couldn't run or dribble.
In general I won't put my hand on fire for any Pro Sport Athlete on such regard (drugs), even sometimes with them even knowing. Specially when it comes to the most usual stuff of recovering from injuries as fast as possible.
Regarding the WC 94 affair, I think Diego should have been caught on more blatant prior ocassions with his life style (yet seems too many interests turned the blind eye), than that one from 94 where FIFA pulled the rug out with what it was obvious a dosis that could not be more silly (in fact later that dosis became not faulty) and more related to been asked to be fit of all a sudden than him actually being "fully recovered" in Napoli after some crazy night involving evrything like I bet had happened dozens of times.
Regarding new medicine and training making him better? he could be "better", like Pele, or any other great from the past, yet not substantially better.
It's not that if Di Stefano already ran the 100 metres in 11 seconds, he nowadyas would have done it in 9, yet they would have stay fittier more time, they would have faced lesser injuries due harsh fouls and stuff like that and faster recovery times.
In any case we don't need with Diego think about better training for being a better player, a simple non addict Diego was already in his time as a kid a better player, if he weren't an addict he would have been better. Meaning being trully fit more times and with a longer carreer, even if he had obviously been blessed by genetics (Di Stefano, Johan, also were blatant smokers, some fellas are just built that way).
No one is going to be talking about assists in 40 years. That's a recency thing re Messi. People will be talking about goals.
But since you asked, I'd say that Maradona's assist v Brazil in the 1990 world cup when he ran from his own half, beat 3 players and then laid it on for Canigga is easily as good as the ones you mentioned for Messi.
The reason it maybe doesn't spring immediately to mind for you is proof of what I said: people don't regularly talk about assists in that way 40 years later.
He also had a couple of nice ones in 1986, of his five at that tournament.
Do you have a similar answer for Messi's best goals?
i don't think thats a reasonable excuse when you get to play at 4 or 5 of them. At least at one of those, you're going to bring your best stuff, or something like it. If you get only one chance, then fair enough.
That doesn't stop you from scoring great goals on occasion. And of course Messi did score some great goals, even before his best tournament in 2022. We were talking about a very specific thing, the ability of the players, which another poster was claiming was much greater with Messi (or at the very least a clear gap). You are turning it into something much broader.
Nothing weird about it. I'm not underrating him at all. I watched him every week for 15+;years, so i know how good he is. However, I'm not a Messi zealot.
They reached the 1990 WC final with Maradona. Also, they won the Copa America twice in the 90s, but Maradona was not in the team.
I mean, you've missed out multiple finals as I said, so the point you're making is not really clear. But again, we're not talking about Messi's impact on Argentina, that's a nonsense debate, of course he's had a monumental impact on Argentina. We're talking about ability and skill. I think it's extremely close, others appear to think that Messi is way more skilful, which just doesn't make sense to me.
Messi scored some really good goals in the world cup although not at good as Maradona's in 1986.
1. 2014: Dribble past a Bosnia defender and a typically precise bottom corner left footed finish.
2. 2014: Free kick vs Nigeria
3. 2014: 25 yard curler in the last minute vs Iran
4. 2018: Great control and finish vs Nigeria
5. 2022: Typically precise finish into the bottom corner vs Mexico
I forgot about the assist from Maradona because i was half asleep typing the response. He also had a good assist in 1986 final.
You were arguing in your post that by scoring 2 great goals in the 1986 world cup, Maradona demonstrated greater individual ability when the truth is that ability-wise they were equally as good. Messi scored those types of goals so many times playing for Barcelona but people forget because of the regularity with which he did it.
There is one aspect of the game that is underrated in Messi's game that I believe he was superior to Maradona and probably to any other footballer i've seen: the consistently precise finishes into the corners of the net. The quality of the finishing gets lost in statistics.
My point is that you really can't just talk about the world cup when it comes to Messi even when comparing him to Maradona specifically because his individual ability week in, week out for 2 decades has been there for all to see. The fact that he managed to have his best tournament and win it at the age of 35 tells you that other factors stopped him from doing so earlier when he was younger, fitter and better. eg, Maradona as Manager in 2010.
I am sure, in the right conditions, Messi had the ability to replicate Maradona’s 1986 just as Maradona had the ability to replicate Messi’s club achievements for Barcelona in the right conditions too. With Maradona, it is his own fault.
Agree
All good goals, but all in the group stages.
An important goal, considering the pressure on Argentina at the time
Agreed
Not in the World Cup. I mentioned those two goals, but Maradona's overall performances in that World Cup were better than Messi's at any World Cup, even 2022. This suggests that Messi is not 'way more skilled' as the other poster suggested.
He did. But not at the WC level that we're talking about. That shows the importance of what Maradona did, and the difficulty.
This is true
No one disputes this. We are talking about the amount of akill/ability each player has. Not consistency or longevity. No one would argue that in Maradona's favour.
Maradona is one of the worst managers ever, so that was a factor. But that was just one tournament. The issue is that Messi struggled with the expectations in an Argentine shirt for many years. That is just a fact. He struggled with the shadow of Maradona, as all young gifted Argentine players did. He is the only one who overcame that challenge, but let's not pretend that it wasn't there. Of course, we have the strange irony that Argentina only started winning again after Maradona died.
Probably true
How do you mean?
About this "week in, week out" ability, I'm pretty sure that if you ask an Argentinos Jrs, Boca Jrs, Barcelona or Napoli fan in the 80s he would say that factor was also there. We just have less TV records showing us that. As discussed before, there is a reason he was considered by many as the world's best player before winning anything of significance with either his club or NT.