Top 4 discussion 2020-2021

[Dumbstar]

@duffer is right we can't keep hijacking the Werner transfer thread. So put your opinions in here. My predictions and reasons:

1. Liverpool or City.
2. Liverpool or City - no need to discuss top two here in this thread.
3. Chelsea - really strong team and squad now. We can list out strongest 11s below later.
4. Leicester - will be slightly weakened but Rodgers is probably the best manager in the chasing pack. Started his tenure losing McGuire but made little difference to how Brendan operates. At one stage in the season Utd fans on the Caf were hoping Leicester beat City in a head to head because Leicester offered the best hope of toppling Liverpool. High praise for "Brenton". But for some reason, forgotten on here because Utd had a strong March.

Utd should come a close 5th. Maybe closer if they sign Sancho but that is not done yet so pointless speculating. Wolves teasing behind but never really a proper challenge. Arsenal, Spurs are dark horses so not sure what to make of them at the moment. Sheffield Utd a busted flush.

Mods, I know you know this is not a WUM post but putting this disclaimer here to save others jumping on that bandwagon. The above is all IMHO.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

@Dumbstar the above is all fair enough as it’s your opinion but I’m intrigued to know why you think Chelsea are better placed than Utd rivalry aside.

 

[Feed Me]

@Dumbstar the above is all fair enough as it’s your opinion but I’m intrigued to know why you think Chelsea are better placed than Utd rivalry aside.

It’s a complete bullshit thread and designed to WUM.

 

[Schweigaard]

If United sign Sancho they're definitely not placing outside the top four.

 

[flappyjay]

In the eyes of other fans not just our rivals we are seen as hot trash. To be fair to them the first half of the season was hot trash. It's up to the lads to redeem themselves.

 

[Dumbstar]

It’s a complete bullshit thread and designed to WUM.

I'm starting to think these kind of posts are the WUMs and deliberate derailers.

@TrustInJanuzaj I think Utd just have injury prone players and nothing is changing. If you sign Sancho then I might change my mind but all this talk of having Pogba, Rashford, Martial coming back is meaningless. You've had them for a few years now and added McGuire and AWB on top yet are finishing way behind a team you bought McGuire from. Doesn't compute. Ole is a sizeable reason for that. One good purple patch in March, or any meaningless top six win record, doesn't change much yet.

Edit: sorry you asked about Chelsea. They have signed Chilwell, Ziyech and Werner. You have not yet signed Sancho. I would love to have Chelsea's signings at record breaking Liverpool right now (some on the bench but with regular minutes nevertheless). That's how good they are, yet are being downplayed on Redcafe.

 

[Feed Me]

I'm starting to think these kind of posts are the WUMs and deliberate derailers.

@TrustInJanuzaj I think Utd just have injury prone players and nothing is changing. If you sign Sancho then I might change my mind but all this talk of having Pogba, Rashford, Martial coming back is meaningless. You've had them for a few years now and added McGuire and AWB on top yet are finishing way behind a team you bought McGuire from. Doesn't compute. Ole is a sizeable reason for that. One good purple patch in March, or any meaningless top six win record, doesn't change much yet.

And what gives you such immense faith in Chelsea?

They’re talking about dropping £80m for Chilwell, what’s so exciting about that? It’s a dreadful piece of business.

I think we should also reserve judgment on Werner, especially since Chelsea has been a striking graveyard since Drogba.

We will finish 4th this season given our run in and fully fit squad.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

1 Man City
2 Chelsea
3 Liverpool
4 Man United

Think there is a quite a gap between those four and the rest.

 

[flappyjay]

I'm starting to think these kind of posts are the WUMs and deliberate derailers.

@TrustInJanuzaj I think Utd just have injury prone players and nothing is changing. If you sign Sancho then I might change my mind but all this talk of having Pogba, Rashford, Martial coming back is meaningless. You've had them for a few years now and added McGuire and AWB on top yet are finishing way behind a team you bought McGuire from. Doesn't compute. Ole is a sizeable reason for that. One good purple patch in March, or any meaningless top six win record, doesn't change much yet.

Edit: sorry you asked about Chelsea. They have signed Chilwell, Ziyech and Werner. You have not yet signed Sancho. I would love to have Chelsea's signings at record breaking Liverpool right now (some on the bench but with regular minutes nevertheless). That's how good they are, yet are being downplayed on Redcafe.

Since when have Martial, Pogba and Rashford been injury prone?

 

[Samid]

Utd should come a close 5th. Maybe closer if they sign Sancho but that is not done yet so pointless speculating.

Maybe you should have followed your own advice before starting a speculative thread on a future season when the current season isn't even finished.

 

[Dorris]

I find it absolutely bonkers people think Lampards done a better job than Ole. Ole’s had to strip his side of players because they’re bad apples, throw in youth players with no experience that aren’t ready, yet you can see the tangible growth as the season has gone on.

Lampard’s ‘kids’ all had a couple of years loans at decent levels, and were clearly ready to make the step up. They may have lost their best player, but they’ve had 2 decent options in each position all season, something we certainly haven’t. Meanwhile, whilst we’ve progressed, they’ve fallen off a cliff compared to their early season form.

With Pogba and Rashford back, Bruno and Ighalo signed and good 2020 form, I don’t understand how you can suddenly claim Chelsea are a clear level above us. There’s no evidence to back it up.

Not to mention we’ve comfortably beaten them 3 times this season.

 

[unplayable]

What's the deal with rival fans calling Maguire "McGuire" ?

 

[SilentWitness]

Leicesters form in 2020 has been terrible. 3 wins, 4 losses and 2 draws. Their losses were against Norwich, City, Burnley and Southampton too so it isn't like they were competing against top sides through that patch. Their problem is also keeping their side together and recruiting well.

City and Liverpool are in a league of their own in terms of their ability/how well they can recruit and I think it is a guarantee that they will be top 4.

United and Chelsea are in the position of having a young squad and are capable of putting in top class recruitment for big money.

Leicester on the other hand have an excellent young squad but unlike United/Chelsea they will have a harder time keeping people like Maddison/Chillwell/Ndidi than United or Chelsea would in keeping a hold of their younger talents. You will not see Leicester spending 50m+ on a player like United and Chelsea could do with ease either.

 

[Dumbstar]

What's the deal with rival fans calling Maguire "McGuire" ?

My mistake. I will correct in future. Wasn't deliberate, auto correct just preferred that and I became lazy.

 

[DWelbz19]

It’s a complete bullshit thread and designed to WUM.

Of course it is. It’s all he does. I don’t really know how he gets away with it, to be honest

 

[Dumbstar]

1 Man City
2 Chelsea
3 Liverpool
4 Man United

Think there is a quite a gap between those four and the rest.

There you go, seems like I'm not the only one rating Chelsea so highly. Take it up with Pagh now.

 

[duffer]

If Man United finish outside top 4 and win nothing, could th

And what gives you such immense faith in Chelsea?

We'll lose Willian and Pedro to be replaced with Ziyech and Werner. Most would have that as an upgrade.

Like Man United, we'll also probably not have as many injuries next season.

It does not really take "immense faith" to think we'll leapfrog Leicester next season. Maybe we won't but he's not suggesting Chelsea are gong to win the quad.

 

[ivaldo]

1. Utd
2. City
3. Chelsea
4. Leicester

 

[duffer]

1. Utd
2. City
3. Chelsea
4. Leicester

Which "Utd"? Sheffield, Newcastle or West Ham?

 

[Dancfc]

1 Man City
2 Chelsea
3 Liverpool
4 Man United

Think there is a quite a gap between those four and the rest.

Agreed (with your last line), i think they'll be a gap between City/Liverpool and Chelsea/United also, think it will be a season too soon to seriously close the gap on them.

On a side note am i the only one who thinks Arsenal and Spurs could both do a Milan and become genuine mid table sides medium/long term? Arsenal have a glimmer of hope if Arteta lives up to the hype but Spurs look buggered.

 

[ivaldo]

Which "Utd"? Sheffield, Newcastle or West Ham?

Rotherham utd
Hull City
Chelsea Ladies
Leicester City Tigers

 

[cyberman]

I honestly think Liverpool will drop off a cliff next season. City have shown when you run your side into the ground their legs just go and we were already seeing that before the break.

 

[Feed Me]

If Man United finish outside top 4 and win nothing, could th


We'll lose Willian and Pedro to be replaced with Ziyech and Werner. Most would have that as an upgrade.

Like Man United, we'll also probably not have as many injuries next season.

It does not really take "immense faith" to think we'll leapfrog Leicester next season. Maybe we won't but he's not suggesting Chelsea are gong to win the quad.

If Chelsea finish outside the top four and win nothing...

 

[Feed Me]

Agreed (with your last line), i think they'll be a gap between City/Liverpool and Chelsea/United also, think it will be a season too soon to seriously close the gap on them.

On a side note am i the only one who thinks Arsenal and Spurs could both do a Milan and become genuine mid table sides medium/long term? Arsenal have a glimmer of hope if Arteta lives up to the hype but Spurs look buggered.

Spurs would simply be reverting to the norm.

 

[duffer]

If Chelsea finish outside the top four and win nothing...

Sure, anything can happen. I doubt Lamps would get the boot as he has only just had a chance to spend anything.

Ole has been at Man United for longer and has had a chance to spend nearly £200 million so I'd say he would be under pressure.

 

[Dancfc]

I find it absolutely bonkers people think Lampards done a better job than Ole. Ole’s had to strip his side of players because they’re bad apples, throw in youth players with no experience that aren’t ready, yet you can see the tangible growth as the season has gone on.

Lampard’s ‘kids’ all had a couple of years loans at decent levels, and were clearly ready to make the step up. They may have lost their best player, but they’ve had 2 decent options in each position all season, something we certainly haven’t. Meanwhile, whilst we’ve progressed, they’ve fallen off a cliff compared to their early season form.

With Pogba and Rashford back, Bruno and Ighalo signed and good 2020 form, I don’t understand how you can suddenly claim Chelsea are a clear level above us. There’s no evidence to back it up.

Not to mention we’ve comfortably beaten them 3 times this season.

Last 12 games before the suspension of the league you picked up 1 more point than us, is Pickford letting a shot squirm in through his body the difference between progressing and falling off a cliff?

It was late November/early December when we picked up 3 points in 5 games (while you were unbeaten in the same time frame) that's allowed you to close the gap, since Christmas time our results have been similar.

 

[Pexbo]

De Gea
Wan Bissaka - Lindelof - Maguire - Shaw
McTominay - Bruno - Pogba
Greenwood - Rashford - Martial

Romero
Dalot - Bailly - Taunzebe - Williams
Fred - Matic - Garner
Mata - Iglaho - James


​

That’s how I view the health of our squad right now.

Proven good players at a good age.
Good age but question marks over their quality or suitability long term.
Age or/and quality a serious concern.
Great potential but a lot to prove.
Lingard, Jones, Smalling and Pereira are done here.

When you look at our squad like that, I think we should break into the top four comfortably next season. I think we could still do with 3 signings though if we are to get close to the Top 2, Sancho obviously, an attacking right back as an alternative to AWB and an upgrade at centre-back to partner Maguire.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I'm starting to think these kind of posts are the WUMs and deliberate derailers.

@TrustInJanuzaj I think Utd just have injury prone players and nothing is changing. If you sign Sancho then I might change my mind but all this talk of having Pogba, Rashford, Martial coming back is meaningless. You've had them for a few years now and added McGuire and AWB on top yet are finishing way behind a team you bought McGuire from. Doesn't compute. Ole is a sizeable reason for that. One good purple patch in March, or any meaningless top six win record, doesn't change much yet.

Edit: sorry you asked about Chelsea. They have signed Chilwell, Ziyech and Werner. You have not yet signed Sancho. I would love to have Chelsea's signings at record breaking Liverpool right now (some on the bench but with regular minutes nevertheless). That's how good they are, yet are being downplayed on Redcafe.

I appreciate the detailed reply but i have to say I don’t think you are being entirely fair. Players like Rashford, Martial and Pogba are not injury prone they have just been unlucky with suffering major injuries at the wrong time for us. If Salah breaks his ankle next season I certainly won’t be saying he’s injury prone. In spells this season we have played fantastically and Ole hasn’t had the credit he deserves for turning around a poor squad with low morale after the departure of Mourinho. I don’t think for one second he’s as poor a manager as rival fans think (and hope) and in actual fact he’s proven to be an exceptional man manger whilst also having admirable tactical acumen, against Pep, Klopp to name a couple.

The reality is that Utd have a very young squad and so you can’t simply say “well martial and Rashford have been around for ages...” they are simply improving dramatically season upon season so it would be more than reasonable to expect then to kick on further next season and truly be amongst the best players in the league.

The other player you seem to have missed Is Fernandes and while it’s still early days it’s about time with all the money Utd have spent that we land a genuine world class player. In the brief spell since Fernandes has arrived, you can just see his quality and also the lift he has provided the team overall, if Utd fan capitalise and add Sancho to that, it’s naive to believe we won’t kick on further.

Apologies for the long reply but I’ll summarise by saying, Utd are a behemoth of a footballing club and entity and again I truly think it has only ever been a matter of time till we get it right once more and begin challenging for top honours. Personally I think we are finally heading in the right direction under Ole and if it all clicks, Liverpool might be surprised to see us competing over the next few years with the scary factor being just his young our squad remains.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

De Gea
Wan Bissaka - Lindelof - Maguire - Shaw
McTominay - Bruno - Pogba
Greenwood - Rashford - Martial

Romero
Dalot - Bailly - Taunzebe - Williams
Fred - Matic - Garner
Mata - Iglaho - James


​

That’s how I view the health of our squad right now.

Proven good players at a good age.
Good age but question marks over their quality or suitability long term.
Age or/and quality a serious concern.
Great potential but a lot to prove.
Lingard, Jones, Smalling and Pereira are done here.

When you look at our squad like that, I think we should break into the top four comfortably next season. I think we could still do with 3 signings though if we are to get close to the Top 2, Sancho obviously, an attacking right back as an alternative to AWB and an upgrade at centre-back to partner Maguire.

I’d agree with this word for word except I think you are being overall harsh on Dalot, he’s a very talented, young player who has been massively hampered by injuries. He could certainly still kick on and become a be my good player for my money.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

In the eyes of other fans not just our rivals we are seen as hot trash. To be fair to them the first half of the season was hot trash. It's up to the lads to redeem themselves.

This is the correct answer. Utd are not a well liked club, it’s only natural that it takes our players more to prove themselves.

 

[Dorris]

Last 12 games before the suspension of the league you picked up 1 more point than us, is Pickford letting a shot squirm in through his body the difference between progressing and falling off a cliff?

It was late November/early December when we picked up 3 points in 5 games (while you were unbeaten in the same time frame) that's allowed you to close the gap, since Christmas time our results have been similar.

So you’d agree to an extent that we’re pretty level? I think that’s fair. And to say that we’re level now for me personally suggests that Ole has done the better job given the shambles he inherited. I know this isn’t what the thread is about, I just don’t understand this idea from the opening poster that Ole is some Alan Pardew like chancer whereas Lampard is doing a good job.

 

[El Zoido]

We will finish above Chelsea next season. Very confident about this.

 

[cyberman]

This thread is extremely premature. Judging by reports Chelsea will have a clearout to cover all of this so its a lot of upheaval for one summer. Not having Jorginho, Barkley, Alonso, Pedro, Zouma and Willian and relying on others to hit the ground running is a big ask.
Thats just one club

 

[bosnian_red]

1. Liverpool or City
2. Liverpool or City
3. United or Chelsea
4. United or Chelsea

Big gap, then Leicester/Arsenal/Spurs/Wolves fighting it out for the next 4 spots. Only reason United isn't top 4 this year is because we missed Pogba all season and had no creativity option to replace until Bruno came in... essentially next season we'll replace Pereira, James and Fred from the starting lineup with Bruno, Pogba and Sancho hopefully (I do think we get him). Fred's done well, but its still a massive jump to Pogba, but more so having quality depth again. Same with Ighalo as depth now. Having depth means we don't have to overuse our best players, don't have to tire them out excessively to the point where their own levels drop and then get injured like Rashford did. On top of that, all our young players progressing to bigger roles. Even if you look at it statistically this season with xG, United and Chelsea are both 3 and 4 in the league and underperforming relative to performances, while 538 rates us as the 3rd best side in the premier league. That's in a season where we missed Bruno for the first 6 months, Pogba played 5 games and missed Rashford since Bruno came in.

Leicester on the other hand have massive overperformed in terms of results, while they do lean heavily on Vardy's finishing. They will have European football next season, which means they'll need to rotate way more and we've seen time and time again how some clubs shoot up with overperforming consistency one year then drop down massively the next when they need to rotate. Spurs I don't think will amount to much with Mourinho and no money, Arsenal will stay mediocre, Wolves is dependent on keeping players/strengthening more but i dont think they push top 4 where right now, the four strongest team are liverpool, City, Chelsea and United just the latter 2 didn't have the consistency this year.

 

[Dancfc]

So you’d agree to an extent that we’re pretty level? I think that’s fair. And to say that we’re level now for me personally suggests that Ole has done the better job given the shambles he inherited. I know this isn’t what the thread is about, I just don’t understand this idea from the opening poster that Ole is some Alan Pardew like chancer whereas Lampard is doing a good job.

I think there's a lot more factors into play than just looking at the squad's. While i'd agree Frank probably inherited a better squad than OGS (even without Hazard) what goes largely unnoticed is we're trying to overhaul our style of play, we're basically playing high line tika taka esque football with many player's a lot more suited to the Jose/Conte backs to the wall footy still here.

All in all both have shown enough promise to earn a serious shot going forward.

 

[TheLord]

My top-10 prediction for 2020/2021:

1. Manchester City
2. Liverpool
3. Chelsea
4. Manchester United
5. Leicester
6. Arsenal
7. Tottenham Hotspur
8. Wolverhampton Wanderers
9. Everton
10. Newcastle (subject to the takeover)

 

[Dumbstar]

I appreciate the detailed reply but i have to say I don’t think you are being entirely fair. Players like Rashford, Martial and Pogba are not injury prone they have just been unlucky with suffering major injuries at the wrong time for us. If Salah breaks his ankle next season I certainly won’t be saying he’s injury prone. In spells this season we have played fantastically and Ole hasn’t had the credit he deserves for turning around a poor squad with low morale after the departure of Mourinho. I don’t think for one second he’s as poor a manager as rival fans think (and hope) and in actual fact he’s proven to be an exceptional man manger whilst also having admirable tactical acumen, against Pep, Klopp to name a couple.

The reality is that Utd have a very young squad and so you can’t simply say “well martial and Rashford have been around for ages...” they are simply improving dramatically season upon season so it would be more than reasonable to expect then to kick on further next season and truly be amongst the best players in the league.

The other player you seem to have missed Is Fernandes and while it’s still early days it’s about time with all the money Utd have spent that we land a genuine world class player. In the brief spell since Fernandes has arrived, you can just see his quality and also the lift he has provided the team overall, if Utd fan capitalise and add Sancho to that, it’s naive to believe we won’t kick on further.

Apologies for the long reply but I’ll summarise by saying, Utd are a behemoth of a footballing club and entity and again I truly think it has only ever been a matter of time till we get it right once more and begin challenging for top honours. Personally I think we are finally heading in the right direction under Ole and if it all clicks, Liverpool might be surprised to see us competing over the next few years with the scary factor being just his young our squad remains.

And in kind, I appreciate the detailed response. Firstly, I've already said elsewhere yesterday that Bruno is potentially my player of the PL next season. Certainly top 2 or 3 candidates.

All of the things you have said (young squad, overcoming Jose, injuries at unlucky times) and the hope you have for next few seasons are all correct and expected. Otherwise how do you call yourself a fan, right? But I don't have that Utd bias (maybe slightly a bit the other way). So I can offer a non-romantic analysis just as Redcafe have afforded me for the decades I've been on here talking of new dawns for LFC (young squads, previous damaging managers, unlucky injuries, etc).

Utd have some really good first team players, but Ole is not your man. If he was then Leicester after losing Maguire and Chelsea with a novice manager would not be ahead of you now, regardless of injuries (ps. Chelsea have had those too and lost Hazard without replacing until this summer). Not to mention Sheff Utd who can leapfrog you this season if they win their game in hand. You can't keep writing off these things as unlucky, it's on Ole.

 

[meamth]

My top-10 prediction for 2020/2021:

1. Manchester City
2. Liverpool
3. Chelsea
4. Manchester United
5. Leicester
6. Arsenal
7. Tottenham Hotspur
8. Wolverhampton Wanderers
9. Everton
10. Newcastle (subject to the takeover)

You would be mad to put Arsenal in 6th place over Tottenham.

Arsenal is a joke.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

And in kind, I appreciate the detailed response. Firstly, I've already said elsewhere yesterday that Bruno is potentially my player of the PL next season. Certainly top 2 or 3 candidates.

All of the things you have said (young squad, overcoming Jose, injuries at unlucky times) and the hope you have for next few seasons are all correct and expected. Otherwise how do you call yourself a fan, right? But I don't have that Utd bias (maybe slightly a bit the other way). So I can offer a non-romantic analysis just as Redcafe have afforded me for the decades I've been on here talking of new dawns for LFC (young squads, previous damaging managers, unlucky injuries, etc).

Utd have some really good first team players, but Ole is not your man. If he was then Leicester after losing Maguire and Chelsea with a novice manager would not be ahead of you now, regardless of injuries (ps. Chelsea have had those too and lost Hazard without replacing until this summer). Not to mention Sheff Utd who can leapfrog you this season if they win their game in hand. You can't keep writing off these things as unlucky, it's on Ole.

Yeh again that’s fair enough and as always only time will tell which one of us is correct. I think for me it’s too early to say on Ole either way. What I know for a fact is that he is trying to build the squad in the correct way, he’s sorting out the mentality and he’s trying to play a more attacking style than we have seen since Fergie left. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’s the perfect man in the future but I still believe he deserves the time here to finish what he’s started and then either way I think the team he leaves will be in far better shape moving forward.

It’s undeniable that I’ll have some bias looking at Utd but I also don’t think I’m massively overrating the current players by saying we are building our strongest squad now in a number of years. The truth is my expectations will be different for the rest of this season and next and I’d expect Ole to be navigating himself above the likes of Leicester and Chelsea considering the higher player quality.

 

[CM]

Liverpool might scrape in if they sign Werner, Havertz and Koulibaly but I think it'll be a close call.