Top 4 race / race abandoned (or maybe not) / Leicester & Chelsea in the process of bottling it

giorno

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Duffer don't watch cartoons. Duffer is a grown ass man.

Actually, I like South Park I guess. Does that count?
Did you watch the princess kenny episodes?
 

Zaphod2319

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Considering we have been a better team than Chelsea for two seasons now it’s incredibly negative to start spouting loads of crap about how we are not going to be at that level but Chelsea are. The same stuff was said last summer after Chelsea spent all their money and yet Utd have easily been better. We still have the younger squad, better players and honestly Ole is proving to be a very good manager. I haven’t got time for fans who look at Utd in the most pessimistic way and rivals in the most positive. How is that support?
We finished tied with the same amount of points and you had 3rd by goal differential. The top 4 placements came down to the last day.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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We finished tied with the same amount of points and you had 3rd by goal differential. The top 4 placements came down to the last day.
I’d expect bias from Chelsea fans and frankly I don’t care. From Utd fans I don’t expect it and I don’t think it’s good form to predict the worst for your own club whilst looking at rivals in the most positive light.
 

Zaphod2319

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I’d expect bias from Chelsea fans and frankly I don’t care. From Utd fans I don’t expect it and I don’t think it’s good form to predict the worst for your own club whilst looking at rivals in the most positive light.
Honestly, it could have a lot to do with the ownership turmoil. The Glazers are making it difficult for you Man Utd fans to feel great about the current state of affairs with the club, even though it has been by all accounts a good year for the team. At work I have given everyone a pass on a positive outlook due to Covid. The Glazers are about as bad.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Honestly, it could have a lot to do with the ownership turmoil. The Glazers are making it difficult for you Man Utd fans to feel great about the current state of affairs with the club, even though it has been by all accounts a good year for the team. At work I have given everyone a pass on a positive outlook due to Covid. The Glazers are about as bad.
Yeh that’s fair enough but still abit of optimism is the least that Ole has earned personally. For the record I do think Chelsea also have a bright future, and are a threat but I just can’t agree with a Utd fan saying we won’t be anywhere near them next season when it’s based on very little.
 

Dave Smith

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Yeh that’s fair enough but still abit of optimism is the least that Ole has earned personally. For the record I do think Chelsea also have a bright future, and are a threat but I just can’t agree with a Utd fan saying we won’t be anywhere near them next season when it’s based on very little.
If Chelsea get a goalscorer then they will be a concern. However, that is easier said than done.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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If Chelsea get a goalscorer then they will be a concern. However, that is easier said than done.
Concern as a rival? Sure. Concern of them pulling miles away? I don’t see it. Look at their squad who is world class? I’m not seeing anyone currently on the level of Bruno, Shaw, Pogba, Maguire, maybe even Rashford too.
 

Dave Smith

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Concern as a rival? Sure. Concern of them pulling miles away? I don’t see it. Look at their squad who is world class? I’m not seeing anyone currently on the level of Bruno, Shaw, Pogba, Maguire, maybe even Rashford too.
I see them more of a concern as a unit/squad rather than individual players. I have seen quite a bit of them as most of my friends are Chelsea fans so we watch Utd/Chelsea games together. What worries me about them is how deep their squad is an also the control they have over games. Only in the WBA game when they went down to 10 did it fall apart.

As for their players a number would get into Utd's side. Kovacic would start in CM, Pulisic would probably start as well when fit and healthy. As for other players, I'd say there CB's are on par with Utd's but with more depth, Chilwell is just a shade under Shaw and is playing a new position, personally I prefer James to AWB. Mendy isn't that far off Henderson either. Mount is also a very good player but wouldn't play here only owing to Bruno.

Werner and Harvetz will also probably be a lot better next season but not sure if they will be better than Utd's players. I think Harvetz will be but that is a projection rather than a certainty.
 

tomaldinho1

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There's a flip side to every argument. Obviously CL is one of the toughest to win, but you can always get lucky in a cup run. That's why a league is a true barometer of a side's performance over the course of the season, and thus logically for a manager as well it's the true test of his ability.
Chelsea were not even the top 2 side in the league that season and were then the champions of Europe. So that muddies the water a bit.
I don't really understand when people say CL isn't as good a barometer as the league because you could get an easy run, that logic dictates you can also get a really hard run. This year the league is about as unreliable as Valencia's crosses - City had an extra covid break and their form miraculously recovered, Pool had ridiculous injuries, Chelsea look a different team under a new manager, then add in all the VAR changes happening throughout the season and teams getting shafted out of points/goals. It's a real mess. Last season was the same, we benefitted massively from the enforced break and never looked back, for example.

It takes a bit more effort but it's not hard to assess a CL run and fairly critique it - for example if Poch wins the CL this season, I think people will have to give him a huge amount of credit. One of the hardest groups, Barca, Bayern, City, Chelsea/Real would be an absolute joke of a run whereas if City win it, you'd be hard pressed to make out they haven't had an easy run, same for Chelsea although they did have to knock out Athletico. All about context.

Re Di Mateo I agree you factor in both major comps and it's obvious no one considers him a WC coach. They had an easy group but then beat Napoli, Benfica, Barca and Bayern in the final. The manner they did it was probably why Di Mateo's a bit of a meme but that's a decent enough run with only Benfica being an 'easy' draw I'd say.
 

Pow

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The difference between di matteo and tuchel if he does indeed go on to do the same
Is tuchel has us consistent in every competition now whilst despite our cup runs under Robbie we were still poor in the league.
 

duffer

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If Tuchel does as well as Di Matteo and then shits the bed next season and gets sacked, I'd bite your hand off for that now.

FA Cup and Champions League win? Sign me up!
 

Zaphod2319

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Concern as a rival? Sure. Concern of them pulling miles away? I don’t see it. Look at their squad who is world class? I’m not seeing anyone currently on the level of Bruno, Shaw, Pogba, Maguire, maybe even Rashford too.
Chilwell starts internationally ahead of Shaw. Pogba is nothing special anymore, he was once. Maguire...seriously... he has been a train wreck for half the season. Bruno I will say is really world class. I think you are drinking the kool-aid.
 

charlenefan

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Chilwell starts internationally ahead of Shaw. Pogba is nothing special anymore, he was once. Maguire...seriously... he has been a train wreck for half the season. Bruno I will say is really world class. I think you are drinking the kool-aid.
:lol::lol::lol:
 

Gringo

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Good list until he got to Maguire. Rudiger, Christensen and Thiago Silva have been excellent under Tuchel.
 

cyberman

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Good list until he got to Maguire. Rudiger, Christensen and Thiago Silva have been excellent under Tuchel.
Utds defensive record has been excellent under Ole for a while now as well though
 

charlenefan

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The idea of Pogba being nothing special anymore is as ridiculous as it is totally and utterly random, based on clearly nothing.
Just when I didn't think the Chelsea fans on here couldn't get anymore ridiculous
 

Posh Red

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The idea of Pogba being nothing special anymore is as ridiculous as it is totally and utterly random, based on clearly nothing.
Reminds me of all the Spurs fans telling me Ndombele was much better at the start of the season. This forum seems to always be inhabited by opposition fans of whoever is the current form team. Funny that.
 

acnumber9

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Just when I didn't think the Chelsea fans on here couldn't get anymore ridiculous
We’ve seen this dance with Chelsea fans every time they get a new manager and he’s the best thing sliced bread for a few months. Before they inevitably shit the bed and get sacked. Then the new manager will be the one.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Chilwell starts internationally ahead of Shaw. Pogba is nothing special anymore, he was once. Maguire...seriously... he has been a train wreck for half the season. Bruno I will say is really world class. I think you are drinking the kool-aid.
God you must think your squad is awful if that’s what you think of ours considering we have been superior the last couple years.
 

Zaphod2319

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God you must think your squad is awful if that’s what you think of ours considering we have been superior the last couple years.
I don't think you will find a post of me ranking Chelsea players. The problem with fans, especially those that frequent internet forums is they are very invested in their team. They rarely can rank their own players objectively. Both of our squads are good. Chelsea has some depth from the bench. I do think Bruno is at the top of his position. Kante has been injured quite often but when healthy can be a nightmare for opponets. After that it is really subjective.
 

BorisManUtd

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Concern as a rival? Sure. Concern of them pulling miles away? I don’t see it. Look at their squad who is world class? I’m not seeing anyone currently on the level of Bruno, Shaw, Pogba, Maguire, maybe even Rashford too.
I think Chelsea's main advantage over us (and other rival teams except City) is their squad depth, they basically have 2 good players in most positions on pitch. It's been one of the reasons why they've been able to play 3 competitions and get good results in all 3 over last few months. They'll need improvements over summer and will improve but already with Tuchel are very good team, I expect a lot from them next season league wise.
 

Shiva87

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They seem almost identical to man city under tuchel where they are just well oiled machine of being defensively solid where they barely conceed goals and doing what needs to be done to pick up 3 points without an out and out striker. If they recruit a world class forward in the summer then they will be a major threat to city

Don't get it wrong, man united are more entertaining to watch but for me defences win titles and we are still suspect in this area in terms of striking the right balance of defending and attacking as a team as I find it hard to believe Chelsea's defenders are anything outstanding it's just how well drilled they are as team in their defensive shape.

I wouldn't mind seeing ole trying out using false 9 option now and then in certain as I feel like it's a very advantageous tool to have game plan wise of being able to cope with missing a natural goalscorer in the side for whatever reason (injury etc..) during a season as seen with man city and chelsea.
We've probably being playing an absentee 9 all season with Martial totally off form, and not making any of those no. 9 runs. I'd say we have coped very well.
 

Lee565

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We've probably being playing an absentee 9 all season with Martial totally off form, and not making any of those no. 9 runs. I'd say we have coped very well.
It is probably a knee jerk reaction based on his current form at west game but maybe we could use lingard in such a role like he has done with west ham a few times If ole decides not to buy a striker this summer if cavani stays and instead goes back for sancho.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I think Chelsea's main advantage over us (and other rival teams except City) is their squad depth, they basically have 2 good players in most positions on pitch. It's been one of the reasons why they've been able to play 3 competitions and get good results in all 3 over last few months. They'll need improvements over summer and will improve but already with Tuchel are very good team, I expect a lot from them next season league wise.
Completely agree but depth usually only gets you so far and you need the sprinkle of absolute quality to hit the top. That’s also the hardest thing to find. I believe we already have a good portion of that and just need to bolster the squad in certain areas. If Chelsea buy well that could of course change.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I don't think you will find a post of me ranking Chelsea players. The problem with fans, especially those that frequent internet forums is they are very invested in their team. They rarely can rank their own players objectively. Both of our squads are good. Chelsea has some depth from the bench. I do think Bruno is at the top of his position. Kante has been injured quite often but when healthy can be a nightmare for opponets. After that it is really subjective.
To be fair I wouldn’t sign up to a Chelsea forum especially if I believed that all your best players were crap which you seem to be doing to the Utd team.
 

U99ted

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Last season was the same, we benefitted massively from the enforced break and never looked back, for example.
We improved when we signed Bruno Fernandes, with a number of wins including the 2-0 home derby before the break.
 

tomaldinho1

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We improved when we signed Bruno Fernandes, with a number of wins including the 2-0 home derby before the break.
Was thinking more about it coming at a good time for injuries. My point being last two seasons have been anything but a good barometer for where a team is at because almost every team has had a slightly different schedule and benefitted/lost out because of that.
 

Zaphod2319

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To be fair I wouldn’t sign up to a Chelsea forum especially if I believed that all your best players were crap which you seem to be doing to the Utd team.
I think you just quoted me saying both of our teams are good. Hyperbole much?
I like the diversity of this forum. It has the most Bundesliga fans I have seen of a forum that is not a German site. Outside the My Team IS The Greatest posts and chest pounding of a few, the discussion is usually quite good. I post at both Talk Chelsea and The Shed End with the same usename.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Chilwell starts internationally ahead of Shaw. Pogba is nothing special anymore, he was once. Maguire...seriously... he has been a train wreck for half the season. Bruno I will say is really world class. I think you are drinking the kool-aid.
Come off it mate you can't believe half of this. Shaw has been easily better than Chilwell this season - obviously there are legitimate mitigating factors like Chilwell moving to a new team and genuinely I'm thrilled with Chilwell's progress this year, but let's call a spade a spade. Shaw has comfortably been the best LB in England this season and I'd certainly not look to Gareth fecking Southgate as some sort of all-knowing infallible font of knowledge.

Pogba remains one of the most uniquely creative players in his position in the world. I think there are possible questions to be asked about whether he'll hit the heights he once did given the injuries and (inevitable) start of physical decline, but he's still a brilliant player.

You're being very harsh on Maguire. He may or may not ever live up to his price tag, but that's a separate discussion from whether or not he's quality. There's room for him to improve but saying that he's been a trainwreck this season is just silly and completely undermines any credibility you might have. It's perfectly fine to acknowledge that we have CBs of a comparable level for the most part without trying to tear down the opposition in OTT ways.
 

Zaphod2319

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Come off it mate you can't believe half of this. Shaw has been easily better than Chilwell this season - obviously there are legitimate mitigating factors like Chilwell moving to a new team and genuinely I'm thrilled with Chilwell's progress this year, but let's call a spade a spade. Shaw has comfortably been the best LB in England this season and I'd certainly not look to Gareth fecking Southgate as some sort of all-knowing infallible font of knowledge.

Pogba remains one of the most uniquely creative players in his position in the world. I think there are possible questions to be asked about whether he'll hit the heights he once did given the injuries and (inevitable) start of physical decline, but he's still a brilliant player.

You're being very harsh on Maguire. He may or may not ever live up to his price tag, but that's a separate discussion from whether or not he's quality. There's room for him to improve but saying that he's been a trainwreck this season is just silly and completely undermines any credibility you might have. It's perfectly fine to acknowledge that we have CBs of a comparable level for the most part without trying to tear down the opposition in OTT ways.
You hit on some of my opinions. Yes Chilwell has been starting ahead of Shaw, just as I said. Yes Pogba is declining and I did say he was once an elite player. Even his transfermarkt value speaks to what I said, he was at one time valued at over 100MM, now it is 66MM, that is a 1/3 decline. I dont rate Magure, he is big.... that’s about it. He is not agile and gets wrong footed and grabs people often.

As for the rest of your post, dont really care what you think of my opinion, but it is rooted in examples of how I get there.
 

sewey89

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If West Ham win their last 4 (Everton H, Brighton A, WBA A, S’ton H) they’ll get in.

Chelsea still have city and Leicester
Leicester have us and Chelsea.

I hope West Ham do it
 

WeePat

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Shaw has been one of the best LB's in Europe this season, never mind better than Chilwell.

Anyway, good win for West Ham tonight.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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You hit on some of my opinions. Yes Chilwell has been starting ahead of Shaw, just as I said. Yes Pogba is declining and I did say he was once an elite player. Even his transfermarkt value speaks to what I said, he was at one time valued at over 100MM, now it is 66MM, that is a 1/3 decline. I dont rate Magure, he is big.... that’s about it. He is not agile and gets wrong footed and grabs people often.

As for the rest of your post, dont really care what you think of my opinion, but it is rooted in examples of how I get there.
Yes Chilwell has been starting ahead of Shaw, but that's down to one daft manager's opinion and is hardly evidence that he's better?

Pogba's transfermarkt value going down is a reflection of A) his contract running down, B) his age, and C) the impact of COVID. Saying that he's not a "special player" anymore is pretty silly and citing Transfermarkt as some sort of authority is further evidence.

I don't really know where to start with your position on Maguire but suffice it to say I disagree. I would acknowledge that he has clear weaknesses as a player but the way United currently set up almost magnifies those weaknesses (i.e. lack of pace & difficulty in defending space). Put it this way - if Maguire was dropped into the heart of our defense in place of Thiago Silva I don't think we'd miss a beat. Our CBs have looked better since Tuchel came in in large part due to the tactics we've employed and the clear instructions they've received.
 

marktan

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It'll still likely be Chelsea, they can afford to lose against one of City, Arsenal and Leceister and still make top 4.

Liverpool's chances lie against their match with us - if they win that they'll probably win their remaining games and make top 4.
 

alexthelion

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Chilwell starts internationally ahead of Shaw. Pogba is nothing special anymore, he was once. Maguire...seriously... he has been a train wreck for half the season. Bruno I will say is really world class. I think you are drinking the kool-aid.
You need to go to Specsavers.
 

BorisManUtd

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If West Ham win their last 4 (Everton H, Brighton A, WBA A, S’ton H) they’ll get in.

Chelsea still have city and Leicester
Leicester have us and Chelsea.

I hope West Ham do it
Yeah, 4 wins and with 70 points they should be getting top 4, anything less and I think they'll finish outside of top 4 (maybe even on goal difference). Won't be easy winning last 4 but given the opponents it's not impossible task either. Would be good for them if Brighton beat Wolves next weekend and get to 40 points meaning they're 100% safe. Everton is tough game as well, they're fighting for places in Europe too.

Leicester have Spurs as well, it won't be a walkover and even Newcastle can cause you problems, they did it to both Liverpool and West Ham. Chelsea have Villa and should beat them on final day but Grealish should be back by then and they are much harder to play against with him in the team obviously.
 

CM10

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Chilwell starts internationally ahead of Shaw. Pogba is nothing special anymore, he was once. Maguire...seriously... he has been a train wreck for half the season. Bruno I will say is really world class. I think you are drinking the kool-aid.
Mad post. How many times have you watched United this season?
 

Bwuk

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If West Ham beat Everton I think they’ll get top 4.

City will hammer Chelsea to clinch the league. Chelsea would then need to beat Arsenal, Villa & Leicester. I don’t see them getting 9 out of 9 there.
 

ZolaWasMagic

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If West Ham beat Everton I think they’ll get top 4.

City will hammer Chelsea to clinch the league. Chelsea would then need to beat Arsenal, Villa & Leicester. I don’t see them getting 9 out of 9 there.
They really wont. They may win yes, but they will not hammer us. The league is won regardless, who they win it against is irrelevant... Plus, we can afford to lose that game. The top 4 is likely sorted now, if anyone drops out, its Leicester, after Newcastle they have us, Utd and Spurs
 
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