Traditions and ruthlessness

[Diabovermelho]

So, to summarise, you basically assume that something you're against (retaining Solskjær) is being done for a really stupid reason (sentimental attachment), and that this equates to choosing not to win trophies when we could have done so

It's not that they are choosing not to win trophies, they (Glazers) really don't care. I love Ole (The player), but honestly he would've never been invited to manage this club if he was not a club legend.

You then propose to have a discussion about whether the club should be less stupid, and if i'ts good for United to win trophies or not

We are 4 years without winning any title, it's bad and it's not Ole's fault entirely (he's been here for 2 and a half seasons).
Most posters think Ole won't go anywhere if he keeps delivering top 4, because that's what the Glazers care, and i agree with them this is what's gonna happen. But i don't agree this should happen, if it were up to me i would hire a better manager.

Have fun in the echo chamber. This may be the most ridiculously constructed discussion of the year, which is saying something.

If Ole gets backed this summer and fail to deliver a trophy, there's no excuse not to fire him and bring a better manager. 3 full seasons without a title. We should never settle for mediocrity.

 

[justsomebloke]

It's not that they are choosing not to win trophies, they (Glazers) really don't care. I love Ole (The player), but honestly he would've never been invited to manage this club if he was not a club legend.


We are 4 years without winning any title, it's bad and it's not Ole's fault entirely (he's been here for 2 and a half seasons).
Most posters think Ole won't go anywhere if he keeps delivering top 4, because that's what the Glazers care, and i agree with them this is what's gonna happen. But i don't agree this should happen, if it were up to me i would hire a better manager.


If Ole gets backed this summer and fail to deliver a trophy, there's no excuse not to fire him and bring a better manager. 3 full seasons without a title. We should never settle for mediocrity.

What a load of tosh. Just because you write "honestly", that doesn't mean you actually have any basis for your first statement. Most posters actually support Ole, though they wisely steer clear of shit threads like this one. "3 full seasons without a title, we should never settle for mediocrity". Who's settling for mediocrity? I want a PL title, if anything's "settling for mediocrity" it's getting hung up on if we win the fecking Carabao Cup or not. But unlike you, I don't delude myself that getting there is easy just because we're Man Utd, and unlike you, I'm prepared to endure the process it takes to get there.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Ole was jackpot for Glazers. They sell to fans "tradition and United way" with club legend and one of favourite players while they get their top 4 spot for which they only care. But sooner or later we will stop riding on Fergie's train of success. Without trophies club's reputation will start falling down and with that, sponsorship deals will not be big as they are now.

 

[Diabovermelho]

What a load of tosh. Just because you write "honestly", that doesn't mean you actually have any basis for your first statement. Most posters actually support Ole, though they wisely steer clear of shit threads like this one. "3 full seasons without a title, we should never settle for mediocrity". Who's settling for mediocrity? I want a PL title, if anything's "settling for mediocrity" it's getting hung up on if we win the fecking Carabao Cup or not. But unlike you, I don't delude myself that getting there is easy just because we're Man Utd, and unlike you, I'm prepared to endure the process it takes to get there.

The fans opinions are actually split up, here, on reddit or the streets. There'll always be "Ole in" fans, just like "Ole out". You don't have any statistical data about this, but just read the threads and you'll see plenty of fans thinking we could have a better manager.

I get it, you don't care about titles, for you that's not a big issue as long as Ole and his United way are still in charge.

Win titles is never easy, it wasn't easy for Chelsea and it won't be for us. Don't act like you are a better fan because you want the manager to stay. I'm also prepared to endure endless years of failure, and if i didn't care about the club i wouldn't be here having this pointless discussion with you. I want the best for Man Utd, i want us to win all titles and i'll support the team no matter who's in charge. I just don't think we'll win the PL or CL under Ole.

 

[justsomebloke]

The fans opinions are actually split up, here, on reddit or the streets. There'll always be "Ole in" fans, just like "Ole out". You don't have any statistical data about this, but just read the threads and you'll see plenty of fans thinking we could have a better manager.

I get it, you don't care about titles, for you that's not a big issue as long as Ole and his United way are still in charge.

Win titles is never easy, it wasn't easy for Chelsea and it won't be for us. Don't act like you are a better fan because you want the manager to stay. I'm also prepared to endure endless years of failure, and if i didn't care about the club i wouldn't be here having this pointless discussion with you. I want the best for Man Utd, i want us to win all titles and i'll support the team no matter who's in charge. I just don't think we'll win the PL or CL under Ole.

Sorry, but you don't get it. Titles are exactly what I care about. It's just for me that's about winning the PL sometime soon, not the Carabao Cup next season. And if we win the PL, that's going to be because we had the patience and perseverance to build a solid contender, as opposed to throwing money at a quick fix manager and a couple of big names.

I don't question your fanhood, or claim that I'm bigger fan. But this is a moronic thread, for reasons that have nothing to do with fanhood. It's just people who've made their mind up inventing illusory issues that helps them confirm their own beliefs.

Oh, and there used to be a poll about whether Ole should stay or not. Never dipped anywhere close to a "no" majority, as far as I recall.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

A day after the CL final I find my self reflecting on ours and Chelseas seasons. As a player, you could argue Lampard is an even bigger legend to Chelsea than Ole is. Add to this the fact that he got CL into the champions league in a season when Chelsea were banned from making signings. That alone would have got Lampard a new contract at United im sure. And probably bought him enough good will for a season or two at our club.

Flip to United now, By most big clubs standards, Ole is underachieving. But because he is a United legend and is doing slightly better each year, most United fans are willing to accept us not winning anything. I am pretty confident that if Ole keeps finishing top 4 and having seasons like this year he wont lose his job.

Chelsea are European champions now because they saw a good manager available and didn't hesitate to let go of their legend. Imagine we sacked Ole after failing to the CL group stages and hired Tuchel.

Would we not have won the Europa League? Would we have won the league?

We are putting more weight on traditions like standing by the manager and ignoring our other tradition that made Manchester United the club it is today - Winning.

There is a logical flaw in your statement. Sacking Ole when he topped the league back in January would have been suicidal for everyone involved. Chelsea fluked again with Tuchel.

 

[Rightnr]

There is a logical flaw in your statement. Sacking Ole when he topped the league back in January would have been suicidal for everyone involved. Chelsea fluked again with Tuchel.

How many flukes in a row makes it good running of the football club, no matter what you think of their methods, instead of luck? Pretty sure Chelsea are firmly in the 'much better run football club than us' category.

 

[RedStarUnited]

There is a logical flaw in your statement. Sacking Ole when he topped the league back in January would have been suicidal for everyone involved. Chelsea fluked again with Tuchel.

Re read my post. I said if we sacked him in December after he failed to make CL KO round. We were not top in December.

 

[Someone]

The difference is in the structure of our club. After SAF, we never prepared for the modern way of management in football clubs where the higher ups make most of the recruitment decisions and the head coach manages the first team. This is because our owners don't care about football and think any manager can do all the jobs at once just as SAF did. So structurally, United puts a lot of responsibility and power in the manager's hands. Combine that with just hiring mangers without considering football styles in quick succession means that the Moyes, LVG and Mourinho tenures have been wastes of time. The only other club dealing with dismantling a 'dynasty' is Arsenal and they have the same problems. Until the owners change their ambitions, this won't change.

As for the fans' patience, we are patient with Ole because he has done well in the league. The records for comebacks, away matches, consecutive wins with 3 goals, equaling our biggest PL win margin etc. aren't trophies but they are indicators of a good team. We also have to remember that our transfer window was pathetic. By pure luck Telles pushed Shaw into his best form and Cavani stepped up to make it a somewhat effective window. This is why comparisons to Lampard are moot for me as he was given half a team to a squad already at top 4 level. By all accounts Lampard was underachieving and sacking him was a much easier decision.

Next season, if we have another window like the last, we'll be in danger of falling out of the top 4 and the blame won't be on Ole. But if Ole is given 2/3 first team players in the coming window and still crashes out of the CL in a similar fashion to this season and struggles for top 4, then he should be gone.

Good post.

With every new manager since fergie, we had to go a completely different path. LVG was nothing like Moyes, and Mourinho was nothing like LVG, and Ole is nothing like mourinho, and every time we had to sign new players to fit the new approach. The club itself doesn't have a specific footballing philosophy or approach to recruitment. So for united the decision to sack a manager has massive consequences.

 

[Buster15]

Lampard is easily a bigger legend for Chelsea than Ole is for us. I don't even think you can argue that.

Agreed.
To be honest, I even struggle with Ole being a legend.
I would class a club legend as players like:
Charlton, Law, Best, Ronaldo, Rooney, Keane, Robson, Ferdinand etc. Players of that significance. Apart from that CL winning goal in 1999, why is he a legend?

 

[Buster15]

There is a logical flaw in your statement. Sacking Ole when he topped the league back in January would have been suicidal for everyone involved. Chelsea fluked again with Tuchel.

Why was Tuchel a fluke?

 

[el3mel]

There is a logical flaw in your statement. Sacking Ole when he topped the league back in January would have been suicidal for everyone involved. Chelsea fluked again with Tuchel.

Chelsea didn't fluke shit. He built a strong unit and improved them on pretty much every level. Their CL win was very deserved. They outplayed the top 2 LA Liga teams and the Premier League champions without any problems.

We need such management in crucial one off games if we want to win something, instead of what we are doing currently : playing nicely when there's no pressure and shitting the bed when it matters the most.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Chelsea didn't fluke shit. He built a strong unit and improved them on pretty much every level. Their CL win was very deserved. They outplayed the top 2 LA Liga teams and the Premier League champions without any problems.

We need such management in crucial one off games if we want to win something, instead of what we are doing currently : playing nicely when there's no pressure and shitting the bed when it matters the most.

Tuchel brought back players who Frank Lampard unwisely thought to leave out. Tuchel realised that he needed that experience in the side to make them defensively stable. Frank Lampard was living in some cloud cuckoo land.

 

[justsomebloke]

Good post.

With every new manager since fergie, we had to go a completely different path. LVG was nothing like Moyes, and Mourinho was nothing like LVG, and Ole is nothing like mourinho, and every time we had to sign new players to fit the new approach. The club itself doesn't have a specific footballing philosophy or approach to recruitment. So for united the decision to sack a manager has massive consequences.

That's part of what of what is being instilled now, and which hopefully would be retained even if OGS is replaced.

 

[justsomebloke]

Re read my post. I said if we sacked him in December after he failed to make CL KO round. We were not top in December.

The logical flaw in your argument is that we could assume that sacking OGS in December and replacing him with someone else would have yielded similar results to Chelsea sacking Lampard and replacing him with Tuchel.

 

[Pickle85]

Good post.

With every new manager since fergie, we had to go a completely different path. LVG was nothing like Moyes, and Mourinho was nothing like LVG, and Ole is nothing like mourinho, and every time we had to sign new players to fit the new approach. The club itself doesn't have a specific footballing philosophy or approach to recruitment. So for united the decision to sack a manager has massive consequences.

Yup. This has been the biggest misstep and most significant blindspot in the club's overall management in the last ten years imo. I'd say it's a direct result of having businessmen as opposed to people that know football making significant recruitment decisions. After Moyes it's just been a series of 'which previously successful manager is available now' decisions without any thought about whether they'd suit the squad they inherited, whether they'd build for the future etc. As a result we've had a patchwork quilt squad with no identity, something that Ole has done a good job of addressing (and I'm not someone that thinks he's the answer, long-term).

 

[Terry Chango]

Agreed.
To be honest, I even struggle with Ole being a legend.
I would class a club legend as players like:
Charlton, Law, Best, Ronaldo, Rooney, Keane, Robson, Ferdinand etc. Players of that significance. Apart from that CL winning goal in 1999, why is he a legend?

6 titles, 2 fa cups , 1 European cup perhaps.

He gave his all to the club during 10 years, never complained or forced a move like ronaldo did.

Very worthy of being a club legend and his testimonial was well deserved.

 

[Buster15]

6 titles, 2 fa cups , 1 European cup perhaps.

He gave his all to the club during 10 years, never complained or forced a move like ronaldo did.

Very worthy of being a club legend and his testimonial was well deserved.

Ok. I can understand that. But my view is that almost anyone who was in the squad could have done this. So was everyone a legend. He was not always a regular starter.
I guess it is down to an individual view. I have mine and loads of people agree with you which I can understand.

 

[Halftrack]

Agreed.
To be honest, I even struggle with Ole being a legend.
I would class a club legend as players like:
Charlton, Law, Best, Ronaldo, Rooney, Keane, Robson, Ferdinand etc. Players of that significance. Apart from that CL winning goal in 1999, why is he a legend?

Ronaldo? For all his talent and skill, guy almost lost us a CL final, then fecked off first chance. Proceeded to then use United not once, but twice, to get a better contract at Real. His love and admiration was for Ferguson, and I doubt he gives much of a toss about United. The way United supports pine for and revere him is embarrassing at times.

With most legends, commitment to, and love for, the club and its fans often counts for more than achievements, and Ole has that in spades. In addition to that, there's obviously the CL winner in '99, the injury time winner against Liverpool in the FA Cup that same season, him (a complete unknown) being our top scorer in his first season, helping us win the PL in the process. Then there's things like him taking out Rob Lee (shows fighting spirit, sacrifice and commitment), refusing the Tottenham move (sacrifice and loyalty) and just coming off as an all-round nice and sound guy. He's got a way better claim to the title of United Legend than Ronaldo.

 

[Sweet Square]

Agreed.
To be honest, I even struggle with Ole being a legend.
I would class a club legend as players like:
Charlton, Law, Best, Ronaldo, Rooney, Keane, Robson, Ferdinand etc. Players of that significance. Apart from that CL winning goal in 1999, why is he a legend?

2008: Testimonial
Solskjær taking a free kick during his testimonial in 2008
On 2 August 2008, a testimonial match was played in honour of Solskjær at Old Trafford against Espanyol. Almost 69,000 fans were present, setting a record as the second-highest-attended testimonial in British history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Gunnar_Solskjær#2008:_Testimonial

He has also started his coaching career at United.

 

[Number32]

Agreed.
To be honest, I even struggle with Ole being a legend.
I would class a club legend as players like:
Charlton, Law, Best, Ronaldo, Rooney, Keane, Robson, Ferdinand etc. Players of that significance. Apart from that CL winning goal in 1999, why is he a legend?

Manchester United official youtube account made a half hour of his united's goals. That video content only goals and mostly coming from the bench. He is a bigger legend for United than Lampard ever was for Chelsea. Lampard was a much better footballer though, but Ole's impact for united to get titles streak from late 90s to early 2000 was more important.

Ole was United top scorers when winning the league in 1997, always perform coming from the bench years later, even still really good when playing out of position as RW. In his long term injury, he was the attacking coach, and that year when Ronaldo-Rooney enter their prime as dynamic duo. Coincidence?

 

[Buster15]

Ronaldo? For all his talent and skill, guy almost lost us a CL final, then fecked off first chance. Proceeded to then use United not once, but twice, to get a better contract at Real. His love and admiration was for Ferguson, and I doubt he gives much of a toss about United. The way United supports pine for and revere him is embarrassing at times.

With most legends, commitment to, and love for, the club and its fans often counts for more than achievements, and Ole has that in spades. In addition to that, there's obviously the CL winner in '99, the injury time winner against Liverpool in the FA Cup that same season, him (a complete unknown) being our top scorer in his first season, helping us win the PL in the process. Then there's things like him taking out Rob Lee (shows fighting spirit, sacrifice and commitment), refusing the Tottenham move (sacrifice and loyalty) and just coming off as an all-round nice and sound guy. He's got a way better claim to the title of United Legend than Ronaldo.

Certainly a legend for his scoring record alone.

 

[Buster15]

Manchester United official youtube account made a half hour of his united's goals. That video content only goals and mostly coming from the bench. He is a bigger legend for United than Lampard ever was for Chelsea. Lampard was a much better footballer though, but Ole's impact for united to get titles streak from late 90s to early 2000 was more important.

Ole was United top scorers when winning the league in 1997, always perform coming from the bench years later, even still really good when playing out of position as RW. In his long term injury, he was the attacking coach, and that year when Ronaldo-Rooney enter their prime as dynamic duo. Coincidence?

We are all entitled to our options. I have mine, which I accept is not that of the majority. But I don't classify Ole as a legend. Yes he was ok. But not in the same level as those I mentioned.

 

[Halftrack]

Certainly a legend for his scoring record alone.

Whatever good his scoring record did for his reputation is ruined by him moaning his way out of the club, then acting like he wanted a return to squeeze more money out of Real. Being a good, or even great player shouldn't, on its own, be enough for legend status.

What makes a legend is a nebulous concept for sure, and people will have differing opinions on who is and isn't. But when the Stretford End has a banner dedicated to a player for years after he's retired, I think it's hard to argue that he isn't a legend.

 

[RedPhil1957]

Chelsea didn't fluke shit. He built a strong unit and improved them on pretty much every level. Their CL win was very deserved. They outplayed the top 2 LA Liga teams and the Premier League champions without any problems.

We need such management in crucial one off games if we want to win something, instead of what we are doing currently : playing nicely when there's no pressure and shitting the bed when it matters the most.

New Cafe favourite Tuchel

Huge last game of season his team lost and without Leicester's blow up he would have failed to get top 4

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

How many flukes in a row makes it good running of the football club, no matter what you think of their methods, instead of luck? Pretty sure Chelsea are firmly in the 'much better run football club than us' category.

I meant Chelsea were lucky that Tuchel was available. I don’t believe in Chelsea model. They never dominated for decades like Man United.

I believe trust in the manager is a more efficient strategy. Not in a Moyes, an LVG, or a Mourinho. Three different egos. A coward, a philosopher, and a showman.They lost the dress room. I never trusted those men.

I trust Ole because the players trust him. So does the majority of the fans. He earned his job and I am happy for Chelsea, they got a next super match.

 

[Rightnr]

I meant Chelsea were lucky that Tuchel was available. I don’t believe in Chelsea model. They never dominated for decades like Man United.

I believe trust in the manager is a more efficient strategy. Not in a Moyes, an LVG, or a Mourinho. Three different egos. A coward, a philosopher, and a showman.They lost the dress room. I never trusted those men.

I trust Ole because the players trust him. So does the majority of the fans. He earned his job and I am happy for Chelsea, they got a next super match.

Keep trusting. We might win the Europa league at the tenth time of asking.

Meanwhile, Chelsea are winning titles in the most competitive PL era and only Man City have eclipsed them in terms of success domestically since Fergie retired. I know which one I'd prefer.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

New Cafe favourite Tuchel

Huge last game of season his team lost and without Leicester's blow up he would have failed to get top 4

Would've still qualified for the Champions League though, so that point is irrelevant.