Transgender rights discussion

[crappycraperson]

Social media is enraged over these tweets -

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Some observations from me:
- Some of the content is definitely transphobic and raising these issues during the pride month is absolutely moronic on her behalf. I do find it interesting though Rowling got a lot more rope than what a lot of other celebrities would have gotten given she has expressed similar thoughts before. I think that is a direct result of her books actually being popular in parts of the exact liberal left culture that in other circumstances would have "cancelled" a person after their first transgression.

- I do see a tendency of leftist SM circle to label any women a TERP if they even express a single contrary opinion to party online on trans issues. In extremist cases it may seem justified but when you have cases like ContraPoints it definitely seems too reactionary. For example, the stance on "genitalia preference/ Not sure if this is a settled debated with in LGBTQ+ circles or not but I do see many people/activists claim that having preference of genitalia is transphobic, as in if you are lesbian and don't want to have sex with a transwoman who still has a penis then that is transphobic. Personally, I see denying of people's choice in these terms as oppressive as forcing LGBTQ+ folks to conform to heteronormative behaviour.

 

[SteveJ]

Can somebody kindly tell me why she might feel it's necessary for her to tweet about this matter so often? Is it just a case whereby a celebrity feels that their opinion on everything is important and valid, or is there more to it than that?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Can somebody kindly tell me why she might feel it's necessary for her to tweet about this matter so often? Is it just a case whereby a celebrity feels that their opinion on everything is important and valid, or is there more to it than that?

And also at 00:24?

Who is going to bed and thinks 'right, that's it, I better tell the world that I'm transphobic'?

 

[Vidyoyo]

I have no idea why she doesn't just have a blog.

Your average dude/ette knows how limited it is to express an argument in 4 lines but a globally recognised published author really should know better.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Can somebody kindly tell me why she might feel it's necessary for her to tweet about this matter so often? Is it just a case whereby a celebrity feels that their opinion on everything is important and valid, or is there more to it than that?

She’s been the bottom of numerous pile-ons from people with strong opinions about trans rights for a while now. Which, I think, started because of how she portrayed a character in one of her books?

Hence she’s ended up taking them on. Obviously, nobody comes out of this looking well.

 

[horsechoker]

I have no idea why she doesn't just have a blog.

Your average dude/ette knows how limited it is to express an argument in 4 lines but a globally recognised published author really should know better.

I don't think she's used to writing long texts.

 

[crappycraperson]

Can somebody kindly tell me why she might feel it's necessary for her to tweet about this matter so often? Is it just a case whereby a celebrity feels that their opinion on everything is important and valid, or is there more to it than that?

There is a definitely a section of women who feel that discourse around trans women in some way is shrinking the safe spaces reserved for women, more so when that group includes trans people are at an early stage of their transition. The last article she linked to cover this view point. This is of labelled as TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist. J.K. Rowling seems to be associate strongly with this view point and perhaps smarter thing for her to do so is keep her mouth shut and be politically correct but in a way it is a good that she is being transparent about her actual feelings on this issue.

 

[SteveJ]

Thanks, folks.

 

[horsechoker]

She’s been the bottom of numerous pile-ons from people with strong opinions about trans rights for a while now. Which, I think, started because of how she portrayed a character in one of her books?

Hence she’s ended up taking them on. Obviously, nobody comes out of this looking well.

Not sure what pile-on means in this context but it makes me think of this

 

[Hammerfell]

Oh goodie, it's been a while since she tweeted something hate-filled. She's turning into Glinner.

 

[Grinner]

I hate anybody who calls themselves by their initials.

But she's very MILFy so she gets a pass from me.

 

[altodevil]

Someone explain what she has said that is offensive?

 

[OleBoiii]

I don't see what's so wrong with her tweets. It's possible to believe that gender is a social construct while sex(biologically speaking) isn't.

People in the trans community can be pretty hostile towards each other. One of the my favorite youtubers, Contrapoints, even got "cancelled" at one point.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Woman whose only area of true expertise is writing make believe stories about wizards..... isn’t also an expert in other lanes.... colour me surprised.

I don’t really give a shit about what she believes as I do believe she’d support anyone of any colour, Gender, belief or persuasion... but I do get annoyed at celebrities of any ilk getting bored in Lockdown Chirping up with some tweets.

 

[Tiber]

The internet always needs to be outraged about something

 

[sullydnl]

The two key points there:

1) She was prompted on this occasion by an absolutely harmless turn of phrase. This in the middle of covid, the police protests and pride month. No surprise that people are criticising her on that front.

2) She says she fully understands the distinction between gender and sex, yet fails to delve into why she is conflating the two. She simply side-steps the crux of the issue to espouse whatever talking points she has in mind.

Beyond that, I'm not surprised it has provoked strong reactions. If you're of a certain age then there's a good chance a big part of your childhood came out of her head. Which means there's an attachment there that will often prompt a strong reaction in some if they feel it is being despoiled.

There's also the fact that (much like Morrissey) her previous work will have actually prompted people to think in a progressive direction. So there's that additional jarring sense of something/someone you might have thought of as "a good thing" in terms of your own personal values moving in the opposite direction.

Ultimately though it plays on the golden rule of internet discussions of trans-rights, which is to never go full Linehan.

 

[Kentonio]

Not sure how she can simultaneously support trans rights and yet be ‘transphobic’. People are allowed to have adult discussions around complex issues.

 

[adexkola]

What's a TERP

 

[Rudie]

Ultimately though it plays on the golden rule of internet discussions of trans-rights, which is to never go full Linehan.

She's certainly a 10 on the Linehan scale.

 

[SilentWitness]

What's a TERP

I think they mean TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist.

 

[NinjaFletch]

There is a definitely a section of women who feel that discourse around trans women are in some way shrinking safe spaces reserved for women especially when that group includes trans people are at an early stage of their transition. The last article she linked to cover this view point. This is of labelled as TERF - trans-exclusionary radical feminist. J.K. Rowling seems to be associate strongly with this view point and perhaps smarter thing for her to do so is keep her mouth shut and be politically correct but in a way it is a good that she is being transparent about her actual feelings on this issue.

Which is what I don't get with any of these discussions. J.K. Rowling is a TERF, she proudly tweets opinions that make that very clear, but then in the very same thread complains bitterly about being labelled as a TERF and equates the label to misogyny in general.

It's like she knows that being a TERF is a bad thing, but can't square the cognitive dissonance she's built up in her head to justify how her TERFy views are ok.

 

[horsechoker]

People in the trans community can be pretty hostile towards each other. One of the my favorite youtubers, Contrapoints, even got "cancelled" at one point.

She did?

She's one of the best youtubers on trans issues. I learnt a lot from her. I always thought she did a lot to bring people away from the alt-right/alt-lite side of youtube.

 

[NinjaFletch]

The two key points there:

1) She was prompted on this occasion by an absolutely harmless turn of phrase. This in the middle of covid, the police protests and pride month. No surprise that people are criticising her on that front.

2) She says she fully understands the distinction between gender and sex, yet fails to delve into why she is conflating the two. She simply side-steps the crux of the issue to espouse whatever talking points she has in mind.

Beyond that, I'm not surprised it has provoked strong reactions. If you're of a certain age then there's a good chance a big part of your childhood came out of her head. Which means there's an attachment there that will often prompt a strong reaction in some if they feel it is being despoiled.

There's also the fact that (much like Morrissey) her previous work will have actually prompted people to think in a progressive direction. So there's that additional jarring sense of something/someone you might have thought of as "a good thing" in terms of your own personal values moving in the opposite direction.

Ultimately though it plays on the golden rule of internet discussions of trans-rights, which is to never go full Linehan.

On a side note, I delivered food to his house once and I've never seen anyone else be such an arsehole in the delivery notes. It was almost impressive.

 

[Rudie]

Not sure how she can simultaneously support trans rights and yet be ‘transphobic’. People are allowed to have adult discussions around complex issues.

The problem with Twitter is that anonymity along with character limitations prohibits any discussion, especially around a topic so complex. It just can't be done.

She also waited until Pride month to say these things, that's a low blow.

 

[altodevil]

Not sure how she can simultaneously support trans rights and yet be ‘transphobic’. People are allowed to have adult discussions around complex issues.

Agreed. The folk on twitter foam at the mouth as soon as someone potentially disagrees with them. It's crazy. They are so quick to attach themselves to defending such an incredibly small amount of the population, many of whom just want to get on with their lives as the opposite gender, no issues. Imagine how much could be done if they decided to defend those in poverty, children in need etc.

Also - pride month? A whole month? The feck? Who decided when we are/aren't allowed to talk about perfectly reasonable questions surrounding gender/sex?

Madness. It's shit like this that makes me realise I'm not as far left as I thought.

 

[Scrumpet]

Like The Simpsons she's too big to cancel.

 

[Hammerfell]

Agreed. The folk on twitter foam at the mouth as soon as someone potentially disagrees with them. It's crazy. They are so quick to attach themselves to defending such an incredibly small amount of the population, many of whom just want to get on with their lives as the opposite gender, no issues. Imagine how much could be done if they decided to defend those in poverty, children in need etc.

Also - pride month? A whole month? The feck? Who decided when we are/aren't allowed to talk about perfectly reasonable questions surrounding gender/sex?

Madness. It's shit like this that makes me realise I'm not as far left as I thought.

Sorry, how long should we have?

 

[sullydnl]

The problem with Twitter is that anonymity along with character limitations prohibits any discussion, especially around a topic so complex. It just can't be done.

She also waited until Pride month to say these things, that's a low blow.

Yep. It isn't a forum designed for that sort of discussion. So much so that even people I agree with often come across as idiots lacking both nuance and an ability to contextualize their arguments.

 

[V.O.]

I'm politically on the left wing somewhere between Trotsky and Ryan Giggs, but this "cancel culture" point-scoring witch-hunt race-to-be-the-most-offended bollocks that has sprung up in the last few years needs to feck off and stay fecked off forever.

 

[altodevil]

Sorry, how long should we have?

To do what? I don't understand. What is stopping people promoting LGBT rights any time of the year? Why do you need a designated time frame?

 

[Rudie]

Also - pride month? A whole month? The feck? Who decided when we are/aren't allowed to talk about perfectly reasonable questions surrounding gender/sex?

You do understand the history of Pride and why there's a specific month dedicated to celebrating the diversity of the LGBTQ communities?

 

[dumbo]

She's a horror. She has a history of promoting hateful transphobic content of others. However much of her own words are usually carefully worded so as to avoid being directly hateful. The timing and style is usually quite telling though.

She very much engages in an "All Lives Matter" style approach to trans issues because who can argue that all lives matter, or that people who are born male were born male right?

 

[2 man midfield]

Today I learned J.K Rowling is a lesbian

 

[BobbyManc]

J.K Rowling, that hero of the gay community because she says a leading character is gay but somehow failed to disclose that in any of her actual writing. She also post-hoc declared a character to be Jewish, and tried to say Hermione could have been black (when she is explicitly referred to with a ‘white face’ at one point). I’m not sure why she ever had any credibility as a “progressive” when she’s so nakedly desparate to align herself with communities but very keen to avoid giving them meaningful representation lest it cost her a few quid in sales.

 

[Rudie]

The problem with the Linehan and Rowlings of this World is not conflating Gender and Sex as such, it's getting confused by conflating practical science with psychological.

For them, if there's no evidence then why should it be? Whereas, you can't prove someone is gay or trans with hard evidence.

It's an archaic way of thinking, the psychological evidence is there and has evolved over decades. Gender is a social construct but society didn't create genitalia, one of the biggest triggers for those who suffer dysphoria.

Yes trans women know that they can't menstruate and some trans men will until they've had surgery. Telling them over and over again though is hugely damaging psychologically and just a cnuttish thing to do. It can trigger dysphoria, the very thing that pushes people who suffer over the edge.

 

[VorZakone]

What's Ben Shapiro's opinion on this?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The problem with the Linehan and Rowlings of this World is not conflating Gender and Sex as such, it's getting confused by conflating practical science with psychological.

For them, if there's no evidence then why should it be? Whereas, you can't prove someone is gay or trans with hard evidence.

It's an archaic way of thinking, the psychological evidence is there and has evolved over decades. Gender is a social construct but society didn't create genitalia, one of the biggest triggers for those who suffer dysphoria.

I’m struggling to understand this post. And, in general, struggle to follow the constant moving of goalposts re sex and gender.

Is it still ok to say people have a biological sex, that they’re born with, and a gender that is psychological and independent of their genitalia? I got to grips with that scenario a while back. Is it still valid?

On a side note, I will never be able to get behind the genitalia preference stuff. Where people can’t say they’re exclusively attracted to male or female bodies. That just seems absolutely bonkers.

 

[Feed Me]

Is it just me or is J.K. Rowling a massive cnut?

 

[Kentonio]

but I do see many people/activists claim that having preference of genitalia is transphobic, as in if you are lesbian and don't want to have sex with a transwoman who still has a penis then that is transphobic.

I don’t know much about this stuff, but that sounds fecking mental.

 

[Rudie]

I’m struggling to understand this post. And, in general, struggle to follow the constant moving of goalposts re sex and gender.

Is it still ok to say people have a biological sex, that they’re born with, and a gender that is psychological and independent of their genitalia? I got to grips with that scenario a while back. Is it still valid?

Sorry I didn't explain myself better.

Yes it's perfectly OK.

I guess I was just trying to say that maybe go easy on referring to biological sex in front of trans people who suffer dysphoria. They know the facts, it's what they're trying to get away from, for some it's what drives them to the brink.

I've explained where I stand on the biology situation previously:

Biologically it's also complex when transitioned, hormones play a part yes, everything from the hypothalamus in the brain right down to the pituitary gland are affected, muscle mass, breast growth and everything in between that hormones regulate change. Is this enough to negate biological differences such as skeletal structure?

Again I'm no expert, I can only talk from my own experience. I'd say if I was to think of it from a medicinal point of view there'd be cancers I've opened myself up to, cancers I've limited, cancers I'd still be at risk to which don't affect biological Women and vice versa. So I guess trans people are pretty unique in that regard as much as we'd hate to admit it. If a doctor diagnosed me with prostate cancer I wouldn't be expecting them to pretend it's ovarian for instance