Transgender Athletes

Acheron

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Yes, because he hasn't started on hormones yet. Obviously as soon as he does he won't be allowed anymore. When he does he'll start competing with men given that he's allowed, which is much less controversial for obvious reasons. Trans women would effectively be banned, not trans men.
Yeah, he's doing that and you're right about his case not being as controversial for obvious reason. No woman transitioning into men is going to be dominating any male category and I think that's also shows how the sex differences can't be breached by the hormone therapy.

So a man transitioning into a woman is going to be a problem even if he's not winning by this perception of her performing at a higher level thanks to her biology. Then a woman transitioning into a man is going to be handicapped even with the hormone therapy when competing against biological men. The former is a problem for the rest of the competition, the female athletes, and the latter is still and unfair situation but just for the transitioning athlete but isn't perceived as unfair for the competition itself.
 

VanDeBank

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Just saying that there are always exceptions to the rules.

You get some good amateurs, but statistic wise professional athlete performs better than amateurs.

A MTF might still get beaten by a very good world class female athletes (as the olympics suggest) but the advantages they have over similar classed natural female is not up for debate.
You keep making this claim without backing it up with any evidence. You cite "statistics". Which one, show me?

The easiest way is to look at professional records and times in things like track, weightlifting etc and you'll see these times are very attainable by a somewhat serious young male.

This effect is more pronounced in sports reliant on power production than those that are endurance based.

The strongest woman (in the 87+ kg category) at the 2021 European weightlifting championships had a total of 276kg (24kg higher than 2nd place) by one Emily Campbell, weighing 122kgs at 176cm.

For comparison Angel Rusov, the winner in in the men's under 55kg division had a total of 258kg

There were 8 men in the under 62kg category that bested Emily's total.
They pulled more weight of the floor at half her bodyweight.

The men's heavyweight champion had a 485kg total.

And the rapid acceleration displayed in a weightlifting attempt has direct carry over to almost every sport except slow long distance endurance based ones such as marathons.

You're live in la-la-land if you think an amateur male doesn't stomp a pro female athlete in most sports and you've yet to make an argument citing data or numbers.
 

Acheron

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Strength and power production have a carry over in practically every sport. Women competing against men is a fantasy and I'm amazed we're discussing something so trivial on page 35.
Some people don't realize this strength is not only measured into how heavy you can carry certain weights but it also translates into how fast a person is, how quick they can change direction, hoy much they can jump, etc.

In swimming distances between 50 and 100 meters can be seen as sprints, then 400 it's a mixture you still have to be fast and have good endurance and even in the 1500 meters you still need to swim at a fast pace. In freestyle, backstroke and butterfly most of the propulsion comes from the upper body.

Then like you said strength has a carry over to almost every sport and that's why you see almost every athlete training stuff cleans and deadlifts in order to further develop their power production and explosivness.
 

ThierryFabregas

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Where does all this leave Semanya? She was born female and never took to change her sex. So why can't she compete as a woman though she has higher testosterones than usual women?
Semanya has XY chromosones (male), internal testes and no womb. Presumably there was an issue in genital development in the womb that meant they weren't sure whether Semenya was a male or female when born. In terms of hormones and physical stature Semenya has all the advantages a male has over a female.
 

Foxbatt

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Semanya has XY chromosones (male), internal testes and no womb. Presumably there was an issue in genital development in the womb that meant they weren't sure whether Semenya was a male or female when born. In terms of hormones and physical stature Semenya has all the advantages a male has over a female.
So in other words she has female genitalia but has no womb and has xy chromosomes. She should be allowed to compete as she has never taken anything to become a female. She naturally produce more hormones than most females.
 

ThierryFabregas

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So in other words she has female genitalia but has no womb and has xy chromosomes. She should be allowed to compete as she has never taken anything to become a female. She naturally produce more hormones than most females.
XY chromosomes means Semenya was a male competing against females. I personally think this was a travesty for the female competitors that were put at an unfair disadvantage
 

jojojo

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XY chromosomes means Semenya was a male competing against females. I personally think this was a travesty for the female competitors that were put at an unfair disadvantage
In honesty, Caste Semenya like most other DSD athletes in women's sports would have competed in the women's category through most of sporting history. The closest thing to a sex test would have been a "quick look" at external genitalia, and that would have been a rarity. As, in general that was pretty much the exam done at birth, that would usually correspond to birth certificate sex.

Genes, internal organs exams, hormone tests have changed our understanding of the concept of birth sex. But still, athletes like Semenya have always competed in the women's class. These days, we know that they form a higher percentage of elite female sportswomen than you'd see in the general population, but presumably they always have.
 

Halftrack

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XY chromosomes means Semenya was a male competing against females. I personally think this was a travesty for the female competitors that were put at an unfair disadvantage
At least put a modicum of research into a topic before you vomit out a garbage take, please.
 

VanDeBank

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In honesty, Caste Semenya like most other DSD athletes in women's sports would have competed in the women's category through most of sporting history. The closest thing to a sex test would have been a "quick look" at external genitalia, and that would have been a rarity. As, in general that was pretty much the exam done at birth, that would usually correspond to birth certificate sex.

Genes, internal organs exams, hormone tests have changed our understanding of the concept of birth sex. But still, athletes like Semenya have always competed in the women's class. These days, we know that they form a higher percentage of elite female sportswomen than you'd see in the general population, but presumably they always have.
You mean women with higher levels testosterone/more masculine traits. This is not the same as an intersex person.
 

Acheron

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In honesty, Caste Semenya like most other DSD athletes in women's sports would have competed in the women's category through most of sporting history. The closest thing to a sex test would have been a "quick look" at external genitalia, and that would have been a rarity. As, in general that was pretty much the exam done at birth, that would usually correspond to birth certificate sex.

Genes, internal organs exams, hormone tests have changed our understanding of the concept of birth sex. But still, athletes like Semenya have always competed in the women's class. These days, we know that they form a higher percentage of elite female sportswomen than you'd see in the general population, but presumably they always have.
To me that seems like a different issue as we're talking about someone who was born in a way it's not as straight forward to determine her sex. For such case I think it should be determined how close she is to a male genetically but if it's a case she's somewhere 'in between' I think it would be ok to let someone like her to compete with women if they chose to; but I'm just wondering, I really don't know how much different to a female with XX chromosomes they are in terms of their genotype and physical capabilities.
 

Eyepopper

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Rugby Union & League just announce a ban on trans women playing.
 

Denis79

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Where does all this leave Semanya? She was born female and never took to change her sex. So why can't she compete as a woman though she has higher testosterones than usual women?
My guess is that her testosterone levels are in the male range or else all the fuss around her would be just stupid.
 

facund

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My guess is that her testosterone levels are in the male range or else all the fuss around her would be just stupid.
46 XY DSD individuals often have testosterone levels comparative to men (between 10-40 nmol/L) which is why the <5 nmol/L rule was introduced in by IAAF in 2018.
5 nmol/L is still high compared to what are considered typical female levels (between 0.25-2 nmol/L) but would be considered problematically low for most male's beyond puberty.

Caster was unwilling to resume taking the medication she previously took between 2010-2015 that would make it possible for her to compete in her favoured events (bizarrely these rules don't cover all events).
We can therefore be sure that her natural levels are >5 nmol/L.
I'm unsure if her actual levels have ever been made public.
 

Denis79

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46 XY DSD individuals often have testosterone levels comparative to men (between 10-40 nmol/L) which is why the <5 nmol/L rule was introduced in by IAAF in 2018.
5 nmol/L is still high compared to what are considered typical female levels (between 0.25-2 nmol/L) but would be considered problematically low for most male's beyond puberty.

Caster was unwilling to resume taking the medication she previously took between 2010-2015 that would make it possible for her to compete in her favoured events (bizarrely these rules don't cover all events).
We can therefore be sure that her natural levels are >5 nmol/L.
I'm unsure if her actual levels have ever been made public.
Thanks for the in-depth explanation.
 

Bobski

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Rugby Union & League just announce a ban on trans women playing.
Given the brutality of the collisions in those sports, and the research into CTE I am not sure they had much of an option.

Not a politically popular decision no doubt but once you get into sports with heavy physical contact between participants a great deal more nuance is introduced.
 

BD

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Given the brutality of the collisions in those sports, and the research into CTE I am not sure they had much of an option.

Not a politically popular decision no doubt but once you get into sports with heavy physical contact between participants a great deal more nuance is introduced.
But then what about born-females who are genuinely just extremely big and strong? If they're worried about risk of impact injuries, shouldn't it rather come down to a threshold of how strong/explosive someone is?
 

VanDeBank

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But then what about born-females who are genuinely just extremely big and strong? If they're worried about risk of impact injuries, shouldn't it rather come down to a threshold of how strong/explosive someone is?
It just so happens that that how strong/explosive someone is coincides with their sex...
 

hobbers

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Not a politically popular decision no doubt but once you get into sports with heavy physical contact between participants a great deal more nuance is introduced.
Judging by opinion polls it'll be a very popular decision. It's even more common sense than the general competitive fairness in elite sport question.
 

jojojo

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But then what about born-females who are genuinely just extremely big and strong? If they're worried about risk of impact injuries, shouldn't it rather come down to a threshold of how strong/explosive someone is?
That implies that someone (who?) is going to be responsible on a case by case basis for deciding who does/doesn't play women's sport. It wouldn't be as simple as weight/height - if you look at sports using weight categorisation (like weightlifting) there's a huge discrepancy between what female and male competitors of the same weight can lift for example, the differences aren't that easy to define.

That said, I'm personally against unnecessarily stringent rules below the elite level. I just find it difficult to define "unnecessarily" in a contract sport.

I'm conscious that personally I wouldn't mind playing with/against a transwoman provided they were weak enough - but that just moves the boundary to a different place, one where a transwoman can compete provided they can't actually compete. Which is a cop out in terms of drawing up rules that protect women's sport, but also takes issues of inclusion seriously.
 

Carolina Red

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I'm personally against unnecessarily stringent rules below the elite level.
I imagine things are a good bit different in other countries with high school athletics leading to collegiate athletic scholarships, but in the US, when it comes to competing with real money on the table as a high school athlete, I’d say stringent rules need to go below the “elite” level in a system like ours.
 

Bobski

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But then what about born-females who are genuinely just extremely big and strong? If they're worried about risk of impact injuries, shouldn't it rather come down to a threshold of how strong/explosive someone is?
I would propose(without having done significant research) that an extremely big and strong born female player is still going to have a lesser bone density and muscle mass than a comparable sized born male player.

It is a difficult one for organizing bodies, but I think safety has to be a key factor in these types of sports, with direct violent physical contact.
 

jeff_goldblum

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I would propose(without having done significant research) that an extremely big and strong born female player is still going to have a lesser bone density and muscle mass than a comparable sized born male player.

It is a difficult one for organizing bodies, but I think safety has to be a key factor in these types of sports, with direct violent physical contact.
I don't disagree with the bolded, but it raises the question - is there any man who you would deem too big and strong to safely compete in men's rugby?
 

Bobski

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I don't disagree with the bolded, but it raises the question - is there any man who you would deem too big and strong to safely compete in men's rugby?
Currently no, but if you could somehow take a player from todays juiced up, power and impact obsessed Rugby and transport them back to the amateur 70 and 80's I would have serious concerns for the health of their opponents.

Male Rugby these days will not allow for the total physical mis-match at the top level, you aren't getting there unless you demonstrate you can cope, even the scrum halfs, wings and 10's are extremely powerful and explosive now. Down the levels there is the potential for danger if outlier level athletes somehow end up playing against average amateurs
 
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VanDeBank

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I imagine things are a good bit different in other countries with high school athletics leading to collegiate athletic scholarships, but in the US, when it comes to competing with real money on the table as a high school athlete, I’d say stringent rules need to go below the “elite” level in a system like ours.
The US system is fecked because it exploits athletes and the stringent rules would play into the hands of the transphobic lot.
 

Frosty

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The Times claim there are currently five or six transgender women - who are active players because the RFU have previously seen no increased risk to opponents based on size and weight - playing amateur rugby in England.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...N-transgender-women-playing-womens-games.html

Not sure if this has been mentioned. Apologies if so.

Edit: And this thread from a pro-inclusion rugby club may be of interest or open to debate from some:

 

Carolina Red

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The US system is fecked because it exploits athletes and the stringent rules would play into the hands of the transphobic lot.
How exactly would that happen?

Stringent rules would prevent a trans athlete from taking a scholarship opportunity away from a biologically female athlete.
 

VanDeBank

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How exactly would that happen?

Stringent rules would prevent a trans athlete from taking a scholarship opportunity away from a biologically female athlete.
Sure, but ideally we'd do away with the fecked up system of having nearly unpaid adult athletes exploited.
 

Stacks

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NIL affects all college athletes.

edit: and states have been adding NIL for high school athletes
As they should. In Europe you have pro contracts from 16 plus so you can earn. In the old USA system you dont make a crumb until you are 19/20 even if you are a star or international calibre player, yet the organisation does. The work of the great Lavar Ball.
 

Carolina Red

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As they should. In Europe you have pro contracts from 16 plus so you can earn. In the old USA system you dont make a crumb until you are 19/20 even if you are a star or international calibre player, yet the organisation does. The work of the great Lavar Ball.
Yes, but a topic for a different thread I would think.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Compelling argument here. Rugby is the sport with the most diverse shapes/sizes so maybe one where small (biological) men could fairly play in women’s teams.

Turns out the smallest male rugby professional in the game (and I’ve seen him play, he’s freakishly tiny - I genuinely thought he was a mascot during the anthems) is significantly stronger than the biggest/heaviest female rugby players in the game.
 

Stack

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Compelling argument here. Rugby is the sport with the most diverse shapes/sizes so maybe one where small (biological) men could fairly play in women’s teams.

Turns out the smallest male rugby professional in the game (and I’ve seen him play, he’s freakishly tiny - I genuinely thought he was a mascot during the anthems) is significantly stronger than the biggest/heaviest female rugby players in the game.
I guess the tricky bit here is that even so the sizes etc vary one problem exists in that males have that bit of extra strength. A male and a female of the same shape and size will for the vast majority of time still have a strength and speed imbalance. Even with a Small man there will be an imbalance . She mentions this later in here tweets. Interesting angle on things though because it could help with those issues of girls playing in boys teams and vice versa in areas where there arent many kids to make up teams.