I don't dispute it was lacking in quality, but lacking in quality and saying he flooded the midfield with bodies to be defensive/cover defensive are 2 different things and maybe my old hazy memory's playing tricks on me, but I don't agree with the latter.
Trent Alexander Arnold
- Thread starter Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I recalled in the last few years of SAF's reign, our central midfield lacks guile n creativity. Hence our tactics mainly focused on width. We got away having a strong back 4 and striker while central midfield is rather pedestrian.
How is he more complete? Trent has better defensive stats, and contributes more to the attacking phase, more key passes, more final third passes, more assists, big chances created etc.
Even if we disregard the defensive stats and go with Reece James being a better defender, Trent is certainly a better attacker so it about evens up.
Trents biggest issue is the tactical set up the same thing that makes him so special will be the same thing that can expose him, Liverpool don’t play with 3 cbs and 3 DMs in fact most of the times it’s one Dm and two cbs left to defend and everyone else pushed up, Henderson goes to the right to cover for Trent and plays as an auxiliary right winger/CM, which means there are huge spaces between the right cb and right back position that Trent vacates.
If you have James in the same system the same problem arises, his only human he can’t expect to be at all parts of the field at the same time, the same issues of teams exploiting spaces behind will arise but this is a sacrifice Liverpool make to get the best out of their whole system, Chelsea system is different and far more defensively inclined overall.
Trent would've thrived in the Carrick Fletcher Anderson CL runs
TAA's positional change ups his creativity, with graphics
Interesting article by Adam Bate on TAA's insane productivity this season.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...o-a-positional-shift-at-liverpool-this-season
Pep Lijnders indicated recently that Liverpool have evolved this season and the onus is on others to figure out how. Perhaps he had Trent Alexander-Arnold in mind. The team's nominal full-back has been in fantastic form. His game is changing.
There was consternation at Anfield that the 23-year-old Alexander-Arnold was moved into midfield by England manager Gareth Southgate against Andorra in September. But that was not because it made no sense for him to be in the centre of the pitch.
The reason for Jurgen Klopp's frustration was that there was no need to shift the player's starting position to make that happen. Alexander-Arnold can find those zones anyway. It was a hindrance rather than a help, as the player himself has explained.
"That was kind of what went wrong in that first half. Standing in there and then trying to find space rather than going in there unexpectedly and confusing the opposition and just feeling the freedom to drift in there whenever I felt it was right."
Alexander-Arnold is already a creator from midfield. He is already Liverpool's playmaker. Kevin De Bruyne was once the most creative player in the Premier League. But the Manchester City man's true heir is not a midfielder. Instead, he is a right-back.
Alexander-Arnold's expected assists total - a qualitative measure of the chances created - is 4.10 in the Premier League this season. That is not just more than any other player but a lot more. Bruno Fernandes is next on that list with 2.66. There is a gulf.
What has changed is the location from which those chances are being created. Alexander-Arnold was always an exceptional attacking full-back from the moment that he broke into the Liverpool first team. His crossing ability remains extraordinary.
Now he has so much more than that. Examine the locations from which the chances that he has created have come this season and many of them are angled balls in behind the defence from precisely the zone that De Bruyne has long done his best work.
"If you watch our games then you will see that Trent's position has already changed," said Klopp in September. "Not in all the games but in games where it is possible then his position changed already. So there is no need to now make him a midfield player.
"Players play everywhere, especially good players are pretty much everywhere. Trent is not very often on the left wing, that is true, but on the right wing he was already everywhere on the pitch."
The heatmaps illustrate this adjustment year-on-year.
During the previous two seasons, Alexander-Arnold has been operating in advanced positions as might be expected given Liverpool's dominance. This season, his influence has also extended infield. As a result, his impact on the game is increasing.
Set-piece delivery is still a core strength, of course. Alexander-Arnold has created more chances from set-piece situations than any other player in the Premier League this season. But the number of chances that he is creating from open play has increased too.
Indeed, the trend has only gone in one direction over the past five Premier League seasons. This is the story of a man who is honing his skills but it is also the tale of a team that has tailored its game to maximising Alexander-Arnold's unique skill-set.
It is no surprise that Liverpool focus their attacking play down the right flank, where he is the outlet and the dangerous Mohamed Salah is usually occupying the space ahead of him. What is rarer is the responsibility for Alexander-Arnold to make things happen.
He has played eight through-balls this season - twice as many as any Liverpool midfielder. Ball circulation is the name of the game for his team-mates. When it reaches the feet of Alexander-Arnold, that is when the focus shifts to creation. He tries the pass.
"It is just playing with freedom, to be honest - especially more this season," he explained. "We have kind of been given licence to just enjoy ourselves, go and create things, go and attack, go and cause problems for the opposition. It just feels right, to be honest."
That can be seen in the numbers. It is not just the volume of chances that Alexander-Arnold is creating that has increased but the overall quality too. His expected assists figure per 90 minutes is around double that of the previous three seasons.
There is no one factor. This is a player who is maturing. He is creating more chances, better chances and different types of chances. But the significance of the tactical tweaks - "we adapt and use his skills absolutely" - should not be underestimated.
"Some people think that because he plays 10 yards further up the pitch he would be more influential," added Klopp. "Being more influential than Trent Alexander-Arnold in the last I don't know how many years he has played for me is really tricky."
And yet, that is exactly what is now happening at Liverpool.
https://www.skysports.com/football/...o-a-positional-shift-at-liverpool-this-season
Pep Lijnders indicated recently that Liverpool have evolved this season and the onus is on others to figure out how. Perhaps he had Trent Alexander-Arnold in mind. The team's nominal full-back has been in fantastic form. His game is changing.
There was consternation at Anfield that the 23-year-old Alexander-Arnold was moved into midfield by England manager Gareth Southgate against Andorra in September. But that was not because it made no sense for him to be in the centre of the pitch.
The reason for Jurgen Klopp's frustration was that there was no need to shift the player's starting position to make that happen. Alexander-Arnold can find those zones anyway. It was a hindrance rather than a help, as the player himself has explained.
"That was kind of what went wrong in that first half. Standing in there and then trying to find space rather than going in there unexpectedly and confusing the opposition and just feeling the freedom to drift in there whenever I felt it was right."
Alexander-Arnold is already a creator from midfield. He is already Liverpool's playmaker. Kevin De Bruyne was once the most creative player in the Premier League. But the Manchester City man's true heir is not a midfielder. Instead, he is a right-back.
Alexander-Arnold's expected assists total - a qualitative measure of the chances created - is 4.10 in the Premier League this season. That is not just more than any other player but a lot more. Bruno Fernandes is next on that list with 2.66. There is a gulf.
What has changed is the location from which those chances are being created. Alexander-Arnold was always an exceptional attacking full-back from the moment that he broke into the Liverpool first team. His crossing ability remains extraordinary.
Now he has so much more than that. Examine the locations from which the chances that he has created have come this season and many of them are angled balls in behind the defence from precisely the zone that De Bruyne has long done his best work.
"If you watch our games then you will see that Trent's position has already changed," said Klopp in September. "Not in all the games but in games where it is possible then his position changed already. So there is no need to now make him a midfield player.
"Players play everywhere, especially good players are pretty much everywhere. Trent is not very often on the left wing, that is true, but on the right wing he was already everywhere on the pitch."
The heatmaps illustrate this adjustment year-on-year.
During the previous two seasons, Alexander-Arnold has been operating in advanced positions as might be expected given Liverpool's dominance. This season, his influence has also extended infield. As a result, his impact on the game is increasing.
Set-piece delivery is still a core strength, of course. Alexander-Arnold has created more chances from set-piece situations than any other player in the Premier League this season. But the number of chances that he is creating from open play has increased too.
Indeed, the trend has only gone in one direction over the past five Premier League seasons. This is the story of a man who is honing his skills but it is also the tale of a team that has tailored its game to maximising Alexander-Arnold's unique skill-set.
It is no surprise that Liverpool focus their attacking play down the right flank, where he is the outlet and the dangerous Mohamed Salah is usually occupying the space ahead of him. What is rarer is the responsibility for Alexander-Arnold to make things happen.
He has played eight through-balls this season - twice as many as any Liverpool midfielder. Ball circulation is the name of the game for his team-mates. When it reaches the feet of Alexander-Arnold, that is when the focus shifts to creation. He tries the pass.
"It is just playing with freedom, to be honest - especially more this season," he explained. "We have kind of been given licence to just enjoy ourselves, go and create things, go and attack, go and cause problems for the opposition. It just feels right, to be honest."
That can be seen in the numbers. It is not just the volume of chances that Alexander-Arnold is creating that has increased but the overall quality too. His expected assists figure per 90 minutes is around double that of the previous three seasons.
There is no one factor. This is a player who is maturing. He is creating more chances, better chances and different types of chances. But the significance of the tactical tweaks - "we adapt and use his skills absolutely" - should not be underestimated.
"Some people think that because he plays 10 yards further up the pitch he would be more influential," added Klopp. "Being more influential than Trent Alexander-Arnold in the last I don't know how many years he has played for me is really tricky."
And yet, that is exactly what is now happening at Liverpool.
I noticed how TAA has been dropping into that DM pocket on the right quite a lot this season. Also interesting that both Walker and Cancelo in the last two season have been the main ball carriers for City in the same pocket as inverted fullbacks. Hate that it's Liverpool, but it's a quality tactical adjustment.
Ah so this is what coaching and developing and adapting looks like
Hes world class going forward and it more than makes up for his awful defensive ability.
Hes an auxiliary playmaker as noted in the OP and its brilliant by both him and klopp.
Hes an auxiliary playmaker as noted in the OP and its brilliant by both him and klopp.
DOCTORS HATE HIM
Click here to find out how TAA added more girth.
Jesus that's a lot of text and diagrams for "ya he floats a bit more toward midfield"
The teletext thread is that way mate
Trent playing a more central figure at times is hardly new, is it ?
I, and many others, commentated on this numerous times last season.
I, and many others, commentated on this numerous times last season.
Reece can defend and attack, Trent can't defend but he can attack. Trent can't defend even when he's back in position so that tactical explanation just isn't right at all.
Yeah Klopp might be right that he’s doing it more often but the rest of the article is a load of pseudo intellectual wank nuggets.
The point of the article is that he has shifted a lot MORE centrally this season and it is bearing fruit. The heatmap shows the evolution. Not that he comes centrally for the first time ever this season.
Great on you for seeing it early before the rest of us idiots. No idea why the author went through with this at all.
That is where the space is for Liverpool and City now. When teams play so deep against you, they pack the center to clog passing lanes. Having players there that can generate opportunities is a massive plus.
Was very noticeable with us against City, Cancelo had the freedom of the city the entire game. Walker too (he's less skillful but his industriousness makes up for it).
TLdR, what's the change?
Trent is better at defending than some people give him credit for. He's not amazing at it, but it's serviceable. If it was so bad, he'd get exposed all the time. See what happens when Milner is there for example. Serviceable standard defending when mixed in with best in the world productivity from that position and another level game running ability from that position. He's one of the best full-backs to emerge in a few years.
Basically exactly what you see in this heatmap:
He has the freedom (in some games at least) to come in more centrally to the sort of areas someone like KDB often plays balls from, which helps his creativity. And he's really good at creating chances.
Maybe we should play Bruno at right back.
I almost wish I did haha
If you only knew.
I am TAA. Thanks for noticing my assists.
Scouse cnut
Best reply so far
Isn’t Bruno the leagues more creative player?
It's hard to imagine it working quite so well without a quality right winger ahead of him who really knows his game in Salah. Same at City of course with the likes of Mahrez, Sterling, Torres etc with De Bruyne, Silva or Foden drifting out to create an overload sometimes as well. It means the full back gets space infield as the defenders aren't really paying attention to them.
We have the guy to drift out and make an overload in Bruno (and Pogba), and maybe we even have the right winger in Sancho, except we then play him on the left or off the bench...we don't really have a right full back who is comfortable enough on the ball, but Shaw in theory could do a similar job. Perhaps the left hand side should be more our focus and just try to maintain width on the right.
We have the guy to drift out and make an overload in Bruno (and Pogba), and maybe we even have the right winger in Sancho, except we then play him on the left or off the bench...we don't really have a right full back who is comfortable enough on the ball, but Shaw in theory could do a similar job. Perhaps the left hand side should be more our focus and just try to maintain width on the right.
Well SAF would shift Ronaldo infield, Rooney to work hard on the left and play Park through the middle. He was all about protecting the flanks. I can’t see how Trent plays into that but who knows I suppose.
I do think if it were as a side as a whole then he wouldn’t have Trent if he has Shaw on the left. That is one hundred percent not on the table imo
Why is Reece a much better defender than TAA, the stats doesn’t say that and he gets far more protection than TAA does, sounds very cliche to say without actually providing concrete evidence.
What stats are you referring to?
If you go off key passes or chances created then yes.
Expected assists is a better measure because it gives a indication of the quality of chances created e.g. if a player takes a corner and it's met by a weak header from a team mate because the ball was too high then this would register as 1 key pass, the xA in contrast would be of low value because the chance is hard to score from. Trent is ahead of Bruno for expected assists so far this season although fbref has them a lot closer than the article with 3.9 - 3.4.
Apparently not. According to xA anyway. Although they skirt over how big a role set-pieces play in TAA’s stats.
36 corners to 12 and 27 free kicks to 9. Trent with the higher value so fair to say that Trent's numbers could be inflated a bit with low xG chances from corners and free kicks.
Bruno shades him on through balls too with 0.4 per 90 to 0.3 per 90.
If you've got a pair of eyes you know he's a much better defender. He's bigger , faster, stronger and much better in the air. Pool concede goals on the regular because Trent can't be arsed to compete for balls in the air on the back post.
One TAA thread at the top of the football forum is surely enough.
Tackles made, tackles won, interceptions, blocks etc.
Trent gets dribbled past far more this season, but last season he was dribbled past less... Defensive stats are always nuanced depending on system anyways which is the point I was making, James might be a better defender but the disparity in that remit isn’t huge.
AWB and Walker are the standout English defensive right backs for me but both especially Walker are prone to lapsesin concentration, positional errors and brainfarts.
Are they necessarily low xG? Would have thought chances from corners are fairly high xG as usually central and very close to goal?
Reece James is an actual wingback. A wide player who generally stays wide, fast, covers a lot of ground and provides width in attack and good cover at the back
Alexander-Arnold is De Bruyne who happens to start deeper
Headers are hard to score from and there's generally a lot of defensive pressure on the attacker. The number of goals scored directly from corners is lower than a lot of people think.
This is one study from a reddit user