Trent can’t defend

Mike Smalling

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2018
Messages
5,139
At least now it's obvious to everyone why Southgate doesn't like him. His style of football absolutely does not work for the way Southgate wants to set up or play.
Reece James is twice the player in any case. It makes perfect sense not select Trent.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
19,297
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
The woman on BT on the analysis is saying Trent was recorded as the fastest player at Liverpool so it’s not his pace that’s the issue. Fastest player?! Wtf. No chance.
Is that a training figure or recorded speeds during a match? Either way, I would be surprised if that was accurate. Salah and Konate were both recorded at 36km/h last season. Nunez, Van Dijk, Gomez and Diaz no slouches either. Trent has never really shown the recovery pace that Walker possesses for example.

He needs a spell on the bench. Ramsey is only 19 but he surely cannot be any worse then Trent has been these past six games.
Yup. If only to kick his arse, they might lose a step going forwards (although Ramsey has a great cross on him too), but it would be in Klopp's interest in the long-term. He looks very soft right now. He looks like he's more interested in finding himself in a free position when Liverpool win the ball back, rather than getting tight to his man every time.
 

Chief123

Full Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2013
Messages
7,136
He needs a spell on the bench. Ramsey is only 19 but he surely cannot be any worse then Trent has been these past six games.
The biggest problem Liverpool have with benching Trent is the fact he is the teams playmaker. It’s unusual to be so reliant on a RB but that’s how Liverpool are set up. Klopp probably feels like he needs to ride though his poor form because he can’t afford to lose his attacking output.

It’s similar to how we were so reliant on Bruno even during his poor spells of form. A large part of Liverpools functionality comes through Trent’s ability.
 

iamking

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 11, 2022
Messages
90
I like Trent. His defending has always been iffy, but its not like he has become a terrible defender in a few weeks. Liverpool lost their regular midfield trio - Henderson/Thiago/Fabinho haven't started together so far, particularly Henderson, as he does all the donkey work behind Salah and Trent. His absence, injury to Matip/Konate and the new kid Elliot's lack of defensive cover is exposing Trent's weakness glaringly. In the Daley blind chance, there were 2 free attackers around Trent with both Thiago and Fabinho in the box Elliot nowhere to be seen (if it were Henderson he would be mopping one of the two attackers).

Trent is usually decent in one on one situations. His positioning and awareness is generally good and with a strong defensive cover like Liverpool's midfield offers, he fits them in the RB position like a glove. Its his positioning and awareness during a counter attacking break that's generally found wanting as he is usually way up in the opposing team's attacking third. The current trend is an anomaly, mostly due to the injuries to their defensive mid and the CB pair (Matip/Konate).

As for Reece/Trent, I prefer Reece for England because of Southgate's 'tactical' limitations. Reece can do a little bit of Trent in offense and defend much better. If we play a camping minnow, Trent should be the goto man for us.
 

MayosNoun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2020
Messages
2,210
Supports
Chelsea
I like Trent. His defending has always been iffy, but its not like he has become a terrible defender in a few weeks. Liverpool lost their regular midfield trio - Henderson/Thiago/Fabinho haven't started together so far, particularly Henderson, as he does all the donkey work behind Salah and Trent. His absence, injury to Matip/Konate and the new kid Elliot's lack of defensive cover is exposing Trent's weakness glaringly. In the Daley blind chance, there were 2 free attackers around Trent with both Thiago and Fabinho in the box Elliot nowhere to be seen (if it were Henderson he would be mopping one of the two attackers).

Trent is usually decent in one on one situations. His positioning and awareness is generally good and with a strong defensive cover like Liverpool's midfield offers, he fits them in the RB position like a glove. Its his positioning and awareness during a counter attacking break that's generally found wanting as he is usually way up in the opposing team's attacking third. The current trend is an anomaly, mostly due to the injuries to their defensive mid and the CB pair (Matip/Konate).

As for Reece/Trent, I prefer Reece for England because of Southgate's 'tactical' limitations. Reece can do a little bit of Trent in offense and defend much better. If we play a camping minnow, Trent should be the goto man for us.
Do Liverpool have another player called Trent?

He has never been good defensively and his positioning and awareness is abysmal.

Even when they have multiple players back defending, he just stands about with absolutely no idea what to do.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
51,128
Location
Hope, We Lose
I remember when Dani Alves was basically a right winger for Barcelona but a liability in defence. I watched a game where Barcelona played Valencia and some of Barcelona's stars were missing, and Dani Alves didnt get forward much. He just defended as a typical rightback that day and was perhaps their best defender that day. It showed he could defend when that was what he was asked to do, but at the same time his attacking wasnt on display.

I've never seen a Trent performance where he actually looked like a rightback who could defend. Even if you said dont worry about attacking just be solid. I dont think he's good enough to be
 

bimalos

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 4, 2022
Messages
26
Jürgen Klopp always picks Trent in the first 11 because he can cross in the box for a goal. Man, even I can score a goal against Trent. That is how bad his defence is.
 

Sylar

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
31,849
Given how defensive Southgate is anyway and then only attacks when we're chasing a game,you would think taa would be a good option to bring on to throw crosses into a striker like Kane right?
 

Dave Smith

Full Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
2,158
Supports
Anything anti-Dipper
If he wasn't a Dipper he would be well on course for Maguire level memeing.
 

Thunderhead

Full Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
3,033
Supports
City
the thing that gets me, Southgate is playing 5 at the back, how many players in this team play 5 at the back? to me it just doesn't make sense
 

DannyCAFC

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
2,228
Supports
Charlton Athletic
the thing that gets me, Southgate is playing 5 at the back, how many players in this team play 5 at the back? to me it just doesn't make sense
Not many but you'd hope top quality players would be adaptable enough to pick up the system. England have played enough of it over the last 4 or 5 years as well.

I think it's fairly obvious that the CBs in particular are a big problem and he probably feels he needs to ensure we've strong defensively by committing an extra body there.
 

hodgey123

Full Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2022
Messages
77
Trent is a problem for England. Despite his obvious defensive frailties in comparison to the other options, this England side sorely lack creativity and he would provide a different option in this regard. The question is whether his defensive frailties and slight attacking edge over James are worth it considering James' own attacking threat, and the answer is probably no, but I would have him as an option if we were chasing a game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Invictus

KeanoMagicHat

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,959
the thing that gets me, Southgate is playing 5 at the back, how many players in this team play 5 at the back? to me it just doesn't make sense
Five at the back too with Rice, who might as well be a 4th centre back sometimes, yet Trent might "expose" them defensively (despite playing for a team conceding less than a goal a game for 5 years at club level).

Meanwhile, they score 1 goal in 5 games and fail to win a single Nations League game and get relegated.
 

Thunderhead

Full Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
3,033
Supports
City
Not many but you'd hope top quality players would be adaptable enough to pick up the system. England have played enough of it over the last 4 or 5 years as well.

I think it's fairly obvious that the CBs in particular are a big problem and he probably feels he needs to ensure we've strong defensively by committing an extra body there.
I get that but if you're going to play a back 5 then you may as well play TAA if you're playing with 3 CB's and 2 defensively minded midfielders like he did with Rice and Phillips, I just don't think we just don't look like scoring goals and for that if we're playing wing backs I'd take the risk of TAA, yes he can be got at but he also does so much going forward it would give the opposition more to think about than they currently do where it's just bloody awful and 1 paced with too many touches and not enough midfielders breaking the lines
 

Thunderhead

Full Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2016
Messages
3,033
Supports
City
Five at the back too with Rice, who might as well be a 4th centre back sometimes, yet Trent might "expose" them defensively (despite playing for a team conceding less than a goal a game for 5 years at club level).

Meanwhile, they score 1 goal in 5 games and fail to win a single Nations League game and get relegated.
totally agree, I posted more or less the same at exactly the same time
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
10,867
the thing that gets me, Southgate is playing 5 at the back, how many players in this team play 5 at the back? to me it just doesn't make sense
That is clearly not the problem, many teams play 5 at the back and excel at it. James, Mount, Kane, Dier, Chilwell and Sterling all play in a back 5.

Arsenal players played back 5 in games last season too. Regardless if its a back 4 or 5, its how the manager sets them up which is the problem.
 

KeanoMagicHat

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,959
totally agree, I posted more or less the same at exactly the same time
Even Trent has scored some long range rockets and free-kicks. Look at the goal he scored against Bournemouth this year. James and Trippier also have that in their locker too to an extent. But I think he's one of the most creative, wildcard players you could have in a team.

The fact Southgate doesn't trust him is quite typical of the history of English managers not trusting maverick, talented players.
 

P-Ro

"Full Member"
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
7,061
Location
Salford
Supports
Chelsea and AFC Wimbledon
The fact Southgate doesn't trust him is quite typical of the history of English managers not trusting maverick, talented players.
I'm no Southgate fan but I'm struggling to come up with any maverick with huge weaknesses like Trent who played a massive role in their teams winning a World Cup since 2002.
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
28,679
Even Trent has scored some long range rockets and free-kicks. Look at the goal he scored against Bournemouth this year. James and Trippier also have that in their locker too to an extent. But I think he's one of the most creative, wildcard players you could have in a team.

The fact Southgate doesn't trust him is quite typical of the history of English managers not trusting maverick, talented players.
I read today that he has 2 assists in his last 27 odd games.
At what stage do we say he’s been found out a little bit? Teams aren’t letting him get to the byline now but are turning him infield 30 yards out? The work rate isn’t there from him to combat that.
His attacking qualities aren’t even to the fore anymore, people defend Trent based on cliche arguments from 18 months ago
 

SirReginald

Full Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
1,175
Supports
Chelsea
Even Trent has scored some long range rockets and free-kicks. Look at the goal he scored against Bournemouth this year. James and Trippier also have that in their locker too to an extent. But I think he's one of the most creative, wildcard players you could have in a team.

The fact Southgate doesn't trust him is quite typical of the history of English managers not trusting maverick, talented players.
You have to remember Southgate was a defender. It’s in his mindset to be as strong defensively as he possibly can. James might not be in the best form but he is still a better defender than Trent..

For all Trent’s strengths, they are not miles ahead of James, who has a very good crossing ability (usually) and can also contribute goals from open play. All Trent has over him is free kicks and it would be very stupid to bring a player for set pieces - corners for example produce goals appropriately 3% of the time, direct free kicks? Just 6% chance.

So one can assume on this occasion he is justifiably not in the team. Trippier as a left back or Maguire starting could definitely be questioned on the other hand.
 

Rooney in Paris

Gerrard shirt..Anfield? You'll Never Live it Down
Scout
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
32,444
Location
In an elephant sanctuary
Even Trent has scored some long range rockets and free-kicks. Look at the goal he scored against Bournemouth this year. James and Trippier also have that in their locker too to an extent. But I think he's one of the most creative, wildcard players you could have in a team.

The fact Southgate doesn't trust him is quite typical of the history of English managers not trusting maverick, talented players.
While it's true that Southgate is generally speaking too conservative, Trent isn't particularly a case of that. He just causes too many systemic issues in a team not tailored for him (which is the case at Liverpool, and even now with the declining Henderson his frailties are showing more and more), and isn't worth the trouble when there's so little time for coaching and tactical work. He's really not that good, or worth tweaking too much around.
 

DannyCAFC

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
2,228
Supports
Charlton Athletic
I get that but if you're going to play a back 5 then you may as well play TAA if you're playing with 3 CB's and 2 defensively minded midfielders like he did with Rice and Phillips, I just don't think we just don't look like scoring goals and for that if we're playing wing backs I'd take the risk of TAA, yes he can be got at but he also does so much going forward it would give the opposition more to think about than they currently do where it's just bloody awful and 1 paced with too many touches and not enough midfielders breaking the lines
Well it's arguably no longer a 3 CB + 2 DM setup as Bellingham looks like he's going to start over Phillips and he's much more attack-minded.

Your point about TAA makes little sense; you're arguing against playing a back 5 because of the lack of familiarity - Trent has zero experience in a back 5, whilst Reece James not only has a tonne (and is one of the few players in the defence who actually does), but has also been brilliant as a RWB in terms of attacking output (same G+A as Trent in the PL last season with far less minutes) and doesn't have the same defensive concerns.
 

KeanoMagicHat

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,959
I read today that he has 2 assists in his last 27 odd games.
At what stage do we say he’s been found out a little bit? Teams aren’t letting him get to the byline now but are turning him infield 30 yards out? The work rate isn’t there from him to combat that.
His attacking qualities aren’t even to the fore anymore, people defend Trent based on cliche arguments from 18 months ago
He was great earlier this year. Not 18 months ago. He had 2.8 key passes a game. 2nd in the Premier League. 0.1 behind De Bruyne, maybe the best passer in the world. He even creates more than Bruno. And he’s a full back. How is that not a big asset? That’s the kind of company he keeps in passing stats.

Reece James was the next best full back at 1.8 per game

This season in Trent’s bad season he’s 2.2 per game so far, still top 10 in the Premier League. James has dropped to 1.4.

Trent was in World XI, how many England players have been there in the past 10 year? Yet can’t even make the England squad?
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
28,679
He was great earlier this year. Not 18 months ago. He had 2.8 key passes a game. 2nd in the Premier League. 0.1 behind De Bruyne, maybe the best passer in the world. He even creates more than Bruno. And he’s a full back. How is that not a big asset? That’s the kind of company he keeps in passing stats.

Reece James was the next best full back at 1.8 per game

This season in Trent’s bad season he’s 2.2 per game so far, still top 10 in the Premier League. James has dropped to 1.4.

Trent was in World XI, how many England players have been there in the past 10 year? Yet can’t even make the England squad?
2 assists in 27 games. All he does is cross field passes now. Those other names create and assist, Trent doesn’t because all he does is play cross field pass after cross field pass and when the other wing creates Trent gets a key pass for it.
It’s not worth the trade off anymore. 2 in 27 games, another 11 games and it’s a full seasons worth.
Edit Bruno had a shocker of a season last year and was still only fractions below Trent in key passes. That’s all you need to know about the stat
 

Pickle85

Full Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2021
Messages
3,375
You still have to defend
Less of a concern as a hail Mary option when we're chasing a game, I'd say. And the original point was that 'he would be a good option to bring on to throw crosses into a striker like Kane', which i think is a valid one.
 

Cassidy

No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
26,207
Less of a concern as a hail Mary option when we're chasing a game, I'd say. And the original point was that 'he would be a good option to bring on to throw crosses into a striker like Kane', which i think is a valid one.
You still have to defend, even when you are chasing a game. And other options like James can cross a ball
also defend
 

Pickle85

Full Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2021
Messages
3,375
You still have to defend, even when you are chasing a game. And other options like James can cross a ball
also defend
Well, yes, but James' delivery is significantly poorer than TAA's and I think if you're desperate in the last 20 mins, TAA would look a miles better offensive weapon than James. Yep, he's a very poor defender but Liverpool managed to make him look like a world beater by covering for his deficiencies and playing to his strengths. Agreed that we wouldn't want to carry him for a whole game, but as an impact sub I reckon he is still very useful for his delivery and for dead balls.
 

Cassidy

No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
26,207
Well, yes, but James' delivery is significantly poorer than TAA's and I think if you're desperate in the last 20 mins, TAA would look a miles better offensive weapon than James. Yep, he's a very poor defender but Liverpool managed to make him look like a world beater by covering for his deficiencies and playing to his strengths. Agreed that we wouldn't want to carry him for a whole game, but as an impact sub I reckon he is still very useful for his delivery and for dead balls.
It is not significantly poorer
 

KeanoMagicHat

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,959
2 assists in 27 games. All he does is cross field passes now. Those other names create and assist, Trent doesn’t because all he does is play cross field pass after cross field pass and when the other wing creates Trent gets a key pass for it.
It’s not worth the trade off anymore. 2 in 27 games, another 11 games and it’s a full seasons worth.
Edit Bruno had a shocker of a season last year and was still only fractions below Trent in key passes. That’s all you need to know about the stat
You're comparing one of the best attacking midfielders in the world with a full back here, Bruno should be miles ahead.

Where are you getting that stat from? He had 20 assists last season so whatever way you're cherry picking.

Okay then, let's look at last season's Premier League overall stats:

7.52 average rating - 3rd best in the league (any position)
Assists - 12 - 2nd best in the league (any position)
Key passes 2.8 - 2nd best in the league (any position)
Average passes per game - 68 (3rd most of any full back)
Crosses - 2.6 (most in the league)

Then let's look at defending:

Interceptions - Trent 1.3, James 0.7, Robertson 0.8
Clearances - Trent 1, James 0.7, Robertson 1.8
Tackles - Trent 1.3, James 1.3, Robertson 1.2

Not bad for someone that can't defend.

Overall:

Trent MOTM - 5 times
James - 4 times
Robertson - 2 times

Was one of the best seasons by a Premier League full-back, but slightly lost his man in the CL final and he's a Sunday League defender now apparently.
 

Vapor trail

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
586
Well it's arguably no longer a 3 CB + 2 DM setup as Bellingham looks like he's going to start over Phillips and he's much more attack-minded.
I don't even think that's a guarantee, soon as Phillips is back from injury he will play the double pivot with Rice. Southgate is a very conservative manager. No one's saying England should win anything but the dinosaur football isn't relevant to any ambitious team in 2022.

Southgate like Solskjaer lacks coaching credentials evident in how the team expresses itself. I've noticed in this modern era managers who have no identity in their direction have short careers at respective clubs. The question around Gareth is what is he building with this England team ? the feeling is that they are coasting. It's exactly the same as Ole with United, he had a few good results overall at the start but the diabolical performances lost the team momentum from one campaign into another.

There's no foundation for this England side to build from because there's no philosophy.
 

SirReginald

Full Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
1,175
Supports
Chelsea
You're comparing one of the best attacking midfielders in the world with a full back here, Bruno should be miles ahead.

Where are you getting that stat from? He had 20 assists last season so whatever way you're cherry picking.

Okay then, let's look at last season's Premier League overall stats:

7.52 average rating - 3rd best in the league (any position)
Assists - 12 - 2nd best in the league (any position)
Key passes 2.8 - 2nd best in the league (any position)
Average passes per game - 68 (3rd most of any full back)
Crosses - 2.6 (most in the league)

Then let's look at defending:

Interceptions - Trent 1.3, James 0.7, Robertson 0.8
Clearances - Trent 1, James 0.7, Robertson 1.8
Tackles - Trent 1.3, James 1.3, Robertson 1.2

Not bad for someone that can't defend.

Overall:

Trent MOTM - 5 times
James - 4 times
Robertson - 2 times

Was one of the best seasons by a Premier League full-back, but slightly lost his man in the CL final and he's a Sunday League defender now apparently.
You are comparing 3 fullbacks in a team that could have won 4 trophies vs a team that barely reached CL qualification last season.

Individually speaking, TAA 47 appearances.. missed 8 games. Robertson 47 appearances.. missed 8 games. James 39 games.. missed 21 for various reasons including a bad injury.

Stats look awesome without context.. except there’s not much difference in any of them. Bear in mind James played 26 league games the above stats for fullbacks becomes completely meaningless as there is not way to compare. However if you do want to include attacking stats how about everyone’s favourite, goals and assists..
G. A. Total
James 6 11 (17)
TAA 2 19 (21)
Robertson 3 15 (18)

TAA finished with 4 more goal contributions in a free scoring team vs half a season of completely dysfunctional and goal shy football. If this is not proof that their attacking ability isn’t as wide of a gap as people make out then I don’t know what to tell you.
 

Joel Miller

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 30, 2021
Messages
87
He really is a weak defender. He’s shown that in some pretty crucial games too, none more so than the CL final.
 
X