Tuchel turns down Bayern| German media speculating about PSG/Arsenal

do.ob

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Yeah, I find it weird that he is mentioned as some elite level coach, you even have Bayern fans in here pissed that they won't get him.

Out of the usual suspects out there he is easily the one with the least credentials.
Finding a coach whose style fits your squad and your club's philosophy is far more important than his trophies. It's why three times CL winner Ancelotti barely lasted a season at Bayern, it's why Barca hires "nobody" after nobody, it's why Zidane got the job and won back to back CLs and it's why a lot of Bayern fans would love to have Tuchel at the club, because his tactics fit their philosophy.
 
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L1nk

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Finding a coach whose style fits your squad and your club's philosophy is far more important than trophies. It's why three times CL winner Ancelotti barely lasted a season at Bayern, it's why Barca hires "nobody" after nobody, it's why Zidane got the job and won back to back CLs and it's why a lot of Bayern fans would love to have Tuchel at the club, because his tactics fit their philosophy.
People here are either enamored with Mourinho for some reason or have forgotten what this club used to be like at times and what it was known for, in particular entertaining, attacking and flair football, the kind Tuchel could bring to this club, but because he didn't win back to back leagues and CL's at Mainz where he pretty much started he's not good enough for anyone. That's how it seems to work here.
 

dove

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People here are either enamored with Mourinho for some reason or have forgotten what this club used to be like at times and what it was known for, in particular entertaining, attacking and flair football, the kind Tuchel could bring to this club, but because he didn't win back to back leagues and CL's at Mainz where he pretty much started he's not good enough for anyone. That's how it seems to work here.
:lol: I thought it works quite the opposite here, play attacking football, win feck all = TOP of RedCafe's wishlist for the new manager. But I am not surprised, I constantly see comments like "I would prefer to win nothing but play exciting than win trophies playing defensive football".
 

Mark Wuhlberg

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play attacking football, win feck all
You can play attacking football and win too. That's what Pep does, that's what SAF and Ancelotti did. Tuchel also won a cup in Germany where Bayern are extremely dominant. He had Dortmund play great football, imagine what he could do if he had a big club's budget.

Did Jupp Heynckes ever win anything as a coach outside of Bayern or Real Madrid?
 

JustFootballFan

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I think Arsene Wenger should be the next United manager. He has won 21 trophies. Clearly has the best credentials.
 

zonaldefending

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I really just hope that Tuchel’s next club is in England. The quality of managers in the league is already much better then just 2 years ago. Adding another top level, modern, football manager will only make the league that much better.
 

Footyislife

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Really? Simple difference of opinion leads to half the posters questioning which team i support. We just share a difference of opinions. From what I've seen so far, Mourinho could have 5 more transfer windows and still come no where close to beating Pep for the EPL or winning the CL. For the talent we have on the team today, and the money available to spend every year someone like Poch, Jardim, or Tuchel could work wonders. Far less risky than giving Mourinho more money or time.

Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Bailly, Lukaku. One could argue we have one of the best young core in football to work with supported by experienced household names in the likes of Sanchez, Matic, Valencia, Jones (when healthy), De Gea, Mata. Short of some extra cover in the midfield we have an excellent squad, just a terrible manager. So what if we are second? Last time i checked it wasn't a trophy. We aren't Arsenal. Too many players under-performing under Mourinho and thriving elsewhere for it to be a coincidence.

Style of play is irrelevant IF we are winning. But we aren't. We aren't even capable of beating Sevilla. So forgive me if i have 0 faith in a manger who peaked 3 seasons ago and has failed to adapt. Attacking football worked for SAF for 26 years. Aren't we all bored of watching our board hire misfits when we have the perfect formula? Just need the right manager to execute it. Tuchel, Poch, Jardim. Doesn't matter who. Just someone who's good at developing players and has the balls to shape the team into a ruthless attacking machine.
 

Sunny Jim

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Really? Simple difference of opinion leads to half the posters questioning which team i support. We just share a difference of opinions. From what I've seen so far, Mourinho could have 5 more transfer windows and still come no where close to beating Pep for the EPL or winning the CL. For the talent we have on the team today, and the money available to spend every year someone like Poch, Jardim, or Tuchel could work wonders. Far less risky than giving Mourinho more money or time.

Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Bailly, Lukaku. One could argue we have one of the best young core in football to work with supported by experienced household names in the likes of Sanchez, Matic, Valencia, Jones (when healthy), De Gea, Mata. Short of some extra cover in the midfield we have an excellent squad, just a terrible manager. So what if we are second? Last time i checked it wasn't a trophy. We aren't Arsenal. Too many players under-performing under Mourinho and thriving elsewhere for it to be a coincidence.

Style of play is irrelevant IF we are winning. But we aren't. We aren't even capable of beating Sevilla. So forgive me if i have 0 faith in a manger who peaked 3 seasons ago and has failed to adapt. Attacking football worked for SAF for 26 years. Aren't we all bored of watching our board hire misfits when we have the perfect formula? Just need the right manager to execute it. Tuchel, Poch, Jardim. Doesn't matter who. Just someone who's good at developing players and has the balls to shape the team into a ruthless attacking machine.

Mate, it was a genuine question. There are plenty of posters supporting other teams who post here, it was just curiosity.
 

Sky1981

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I bet Bellerin will be the best full back in the world under a modern coach. Off topic.
Meh. But a certain attacking midfielder or winger would be sacrificed for belerin bombing forward. Football is zero sum game. A manager who flourishes on fullback is probably a bad manager for winger. You can only field 11 players at the end of the day
 

Sky1981

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You can play attacking football and win too. That's what Pep does, that's what SAF and Ancelotti did. Tuchel also won a cup in Germany where Bayern are extremely dominant. He had Dortmund play great football, imagine what he could do if he had a big club's budget.

Did Jupp Heynckes ever win anything as a coach outside of Bayern or Real Madrid?
People says once... i paraphrase. Imagine what moyes could do with a bigger budget
 

Jim Beam

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The work that these managers did at their previous work prove what they are going to do here. Anyone who hopes for something more is just hoping, nothing else. These managers will play great football here but are going to finish 3rd or 4th while winning nothing. Some are OK with that as long as we will play great football to see, OK, no problem, but no need to delude yourself that a manager who won nothing will suddenly become a world beater once you give them money, because you haven't seen anything like that to prove otherwise, you wanted them because they played good football to see, that's it.

Personally, my favorite choice after Mourinho will be Allegri.
I see you've pretty much done the debate, so will try to be short. That's pretty simplistic way to look at the managers, you've just done copy/paste from their previous, lower budget clubs looking the way they play and expecting it will be same wherever they go. There are so many factors you need to take into the consideration when going after a manager, especially the ones who are young as Tuchel. To be precise, I can see Tuchel doing great in a club like Bayern, possibly elevating himself in a top group of managers and there are reasons I believe he might struggle here, especially at this point of time. But, his use and understanding of tactics certainly aren't among those reasons.
Something in line with what @do.ob said above.
 

el3mel

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I see you've pretty much done the debate, so will try to be short. That's pretty simplistic way to look at the managers, you've just done copy/paste from their previous, lower budget clubs looking the way they play and expecting it will be same wherever they go. There are so many factors you need to take into the consideration when going after a manager, especially the ones who are young as Tuchel. To be precise, I can see Tuchel doing great in a club like Bayern, possibly elevating himself in a top group of managers and there are reasons I believe he might struggle here, especially at this point of time. But, his use and understanding of tactics certainly aren't among those reasons.
Something in line with what @do.ob said above.
You also need to consider that with getting more budgets at big clubs, more expectations will be asked and less excuses will be made for them. That's a total different environment that they will need to deal with to succeed at top level. At BVB, Monaco and these other clubs of same level, only your great matches will be remembered while any mistakes or losses will be mostly forgotten. In big clubs it's completely the opposite, managers got slaughtered for even a draw in the league, so with more budget comes more expectations, targets and less excuses. You are simplifying it more than me IMO.
 

JPRouve

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You also need to consider that with getting more budgets at big clubs, more expectations will be asked and less excuses will be made for them. That's a total different environment that they will need to deal with to succeed at top level. At BVB, Monaco and these other clubs of same level, only your great matches will be remembered while any mistakes or losses will be mostly forgotten. In big clubs it's completely the opposite, managers got slaughtered for even a draw in the league, so with more budget comes more expectations, targets and less excuses. You are simplifying it more than me IMO.
Nah you are the one simplifying it the most, though what you say here is correct the expectations are different and you don't know how promising HCs will react, in particular someone like Tuchel. But there is one flaw here, most top managers have made the jump from clubs like Dortmund and Monaco to Bayern, United or Juventus, you can't hold the lack of opportunity against Jardim and Tuchel because it's something that big clubs give not something that promising managers take, one of the big clubs have to give them that opportunity.
 

el3mel

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Nah you are the one simplifying it the most, though what you say here is correct the expectations are different and you don't know how promising HCs will react, in particular someone like Tuchel. But there is one flaw here, most top managers have made the jump from clubs like Dortmund and Monaco to Bayern, United or Juventus, you can't hold the lack of opportunity against Jardim and Tuchel because it's something that big clubs give not something that promising managers take, one of the big clubs have to give them that opportunity.
Said in previous post that whether the manager able to make that jumb or not defines his ability to make it at such top level. The problem is most are putting Blind faith that they are sure success once they get that big job, while I'm waiting with my reservations.
 

JPRouve

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Said in previous post that whether the manager able to make that jumb or not defines his ability to make it at such top level. The problem is most are putting Blind faith that they are sure success once they get that big job, while I'm waiting with my reservations.
I don't think anyone is putting blind faith in their future successes, you are just trying everything to shoot them down, I mean Jardim has a CL QF and a CL SF with Monaco but he is apparently less proven than Pocchetino, that's nonsense. And your first sentence makes little sense too, the jump is only the opportunity to manage a big club, the ability to be successful is defined by being successful nothing else.
 

Jim Beam

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You also need to consider that with getting more budgets at big clubs, more expectations will be asked and less excuses will be made for them. That's a total different environment that they will need to deal with to succeed at top level. At BVB, Monaco and these other clubs of same level, only your great matches will be remembered while any mistakes or losses will be mostly forgotten. In big clubs it's completely the opposite, managers got slaughtered for even a draw in the league, so with more budget comes more expectations, targets and less excuses. You are simplifying it more than me IMO.
That's all fine and how it supposed to be. All 3 of those managers proved in making the next step so far, though. They had low-profile clubs, work great under them, had a chance in a much bigger club, left a clear mark on the team in terms of playing style while improving individual players, so I don't know what they should do next. Poch stay in Spurs while he wins the league or CL? Tuchel back in Dortmund or in a club like Lyon to do the same?
You can look at how they coped with it while making previous steps, along with their man-management, leadership skills, tactics and then the club who hires them have to decide if they fit into the way they want their team to play. I'm not looking it simplistic as I already told you it involves so many factors including how that manager actually fits in a certain team, so it's not only about him. You're still mainly about them lacking trophies (which btw. is not true except for Poch) and how they will handle pressure.

Tbh, I find strange that we even argue this, considering 2 top clubs obviously approached Tuchel. I imagine the process before approaching him included a fair amount of time spent in looking all the strengths and weaknesses. Same, if Poch and Jardim decide to quit their clubs today they will almost certainly have a shot at the big club.
 

el3mel

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I don't think anyone is putting blind faith in their future successes, you are just trying everything to shoot them down, I mean Jardim has a CL QF and a CL SF with Monaco but he is apparently less proven than Pocchetino, that's nonsense. And your first sentence makes little sense too, the jump is only the opportunity to manage a big club, the ability to be successful is defined by being successful nothing else.
No it's not nonsense. Poch had been working in a far more competitive environment than both Jardim and Tuchel, and tactically wise I have seen everything to prove he's better and more flexible tactically than both.

I didn't say they wouldn't make the jump. I said each manager who jump to such level will deal with different environment with different expectations and whether he can deal with it when he gets the opportunity will see if he'll make it or not. Surely there's no disagreement regarding this point.
 

JPRouve

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No it's not nonsense. Poch had been working in a far more competitive environment than both Jardim and Tuchel, and tactically wise I have seen everything to prove he's better and more flexible tactically than both.

I didn't say they wouldn't make the jump. I said each manager who jump to such level will deal with different environment with different expectations and whether he can deal with it when he gets the opportunity will see if he'll make it or not. Surely there's no disagreement regarding this point.
How is Pochettino more flexible tactically than Tuchel and Jardim, particularly Jardim who basically went from very pragmatic tactics to very attacking ones, who used pretty much every system or type of pressings you can imagine? Jardim has no limitations in terms of players profile, he works with all type of players.
 

el3mel

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That's all fine and how it supposed to be. All 3 of those managers proved in making the next step so far, though. They had low-profile clubs, work great under them, had a chance in a much bigger club, left a clear mark on the team in terms of playing style while improving individual players, so I don't know what they should do next. Poch stay in Spurs while he wins the league or CL? Tuchel back in Dortmund or in a club like Lyon to do the same?
You can look at how they coped with it while making previous steps, along with their man-management, leadership skills, tactics and then the club who hires them have to decide if they fit into the way they want their team to play. I'm not looking it simplistic as I already told you it involves so many factors including how that manager actually fits in a certain team, so it's not only about him. You're still mainly about them lacking trophies (which btw. is not true except for Poch) and how they will handle pressure.

Tbh, I find strange that we even argue this, considering 2 top clubs obviously approached Tuchel. I imagine the process before approaching him included a fair amount of time spent in looking all the strengths and weaknesses. Same, if Poch and Jardim decide to quit their clubs today they will almost certainly have a shot at the big club.
I haven't mentioned trophies in my last post as far as I'm concerned.

I said the way they're judged will be different once they get a top club. The way we judge Tuchel in BVB by no means will be the same he'll be judged by when he gets Bayern or PSG job. Once they prove their ability in leading a big club under harsher expectations and targets, they'll be considered as elite managers, now they're considered promising young managers with wishful thinking that they'll make it at top level once they get the opportunity.

All the talk about man management, leadership and tactics are far harder to implement at big clubs that seek immediate success than it's a at a club like BVB and Monaco. I don't think we can argue about that tbh. It's whether Tuchel will be able to do the same work at the big club he'll get is what will define him being a top manager or not.
 

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You also need to consider that with getting more budgets at big clubs, more expectations will be asked and less excuses will be made for them. That's a total different environment that they will need to deal with to succeed at top level. At BVB, Monaco and these other clubs of same level, only your great matches will be remembered while any mistakes or losses will be mostly forgotten. In big clubs it's completely the opposite, managers got slaughtered for even a draw in the league, so with more budget comes more expectations, targets and less excuses. You are simplifying it more than me IMO.
Technically, we haven't applied this yardstick to Mourinho. Let's face it, the Europa and LC wins were great, but largely papered over several cracks. Neither has Jose come under pressure for the Sevilla loss from the board. We have given him a really relaxed environment despite his mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jose, but the idea that Jardim or Tuchel can't thrive under expectations is unproven. Tuchel had to deal with player sales at Dortmund and the shadow of Bayern, and he still managed to win a cup. And Jardim exceeded expectations at Monaco, rejuvenating a spent Falcao and assembling that amazing Monaco team. There are expectations at these clubs too, and it is just a matter of seeing if a manager is able to adapt in general.
 

el3mel

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How is Pochettino more flexible tactically than Tuchel and Jardim, particularly Jardim who basically went from very pragmatic tactics to very attacking ones, who used pretty much every system or type of pressings you can imagine? Jardim has no limitations in terms of players profile, he works with all type of players.
I thought I was talking about that the whole rest of the argument.

I had seen Poch putting several masterclass games against big clubs in England and recently in Europe too. He hasn't actually one dimensional in his approach to big games anymore. I saw him playing some pragmatic approach based on counters against Madrid on their pitch and executed it perfectly. I haven't seen Jardim doing a similar number of masterclass tactics in big games recently, even when he reached CL semi-final, the first team who played them with different tactics and approach, the team got schooled. Poch isn't a one trick pony imo.
 

Jim Beam

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No it's not nonsense. Poch had been working in a far more competitive environment than both Jardim and Tuchel, and tactically wise I have seen everything to prove he's better and more flexible tactically than both.

I didn't say they wouldn't make the jump. I said each manager who jump to such level will deal with different environment with different expectations and whether he can deal with it when he gets the opportunity will see if he'll make it or not. Surely there's no disagreement regarding this point.
And every title-winning manager will have to also deal with different circumstances while changing clubs. You said you wanted Allegri once Jose leaves. How would Allegri cope in United where he wouldn't be just a coach, but in full control of the club? Isn't it a massive risk and something he never experienced before?

The thing is, in every move there is a risk, the club just have to make a sound judgment if it's the risk worth taking.
 

el3mel

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Technically, we haven't applied this yardstick to Mourinho. Let's face it, the Europa and LC wins were great, but largely papered over several cracks. Neither has Jose come under pressure for the Sevilla loss from the board. We have given him a really relaxed environment despite his mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jose, but the idea that Jardim or Tuchel can't thrive under expectations is unproven. Tuchel had to deal with player sales at Dortmund and the shadow of Bayern, and he still managed to win a cup. And Jardim exceeded expectations at Monaco, rejuvenating a spent Falcao and assembling that amazing Monaco team. There are expectations at these clubs too, and it is just a matter of seeing if a manager is able to adapt in general.
I didn't say they can't thrive under higher expectations. Please, I don't want to repeat myself. I said the expectations will be higher and they'll be judged based on different targets than at BVB or Monaco. Whether they'll do it or not is yet to be seen.
 

dove

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You can play attacking football and win too. That's what Pep does, that's what SAF and Ancelotti did. Tuchel also won a cup in Germany where Bayern are extremely dominant. He had Dortmund play great football, imagine what he could do if he had a big club's budget.

Did Jupp Heynckes ever win anything as a coach outside of Bayern or Real Madrid?
Never said you can't win playing attacking football. What I am saying, managers like Tuchel are a massive gamble, Klopp looked great at Dortmund but he can't quite do it at L'pool yet (unless they win CL, they will be 3 seasons without any trophy with Klopp). Is it worth taking this risk especially as it feels like we are finally at least on the right path? I know most of people don't admit but we are the best since SAF left. So give Mou 1 more season and let's make decisions then, whether he can take us forward or not.
 

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And every title-winning manager will have to also deal with different circumstances while changing clubs. You said you wanted Allegri once Jose leaves. How would Allegri cope in United where he wouldn't be just a coach, but in full control of the club? Isn't it a massive risk and something he never experienced before?

The thing is, in every move there is a risk, the club just have to make a sound judgment if it's the risk worth taking.
Guess what, I actually said similar thing when a thread about post Mourinho happened :

Anyway, I believe Jose will remain for the next season then leave. After that we'll need to get a DOF because no one in this list of the managers have enough strong personality in front of the board to organize transfers. Allegri had let the Milan board sell most of the team and enter their crisis and he didn't spoke till he left. Carlo has been the same in Madrid and Bayern, so we'll need to get a DOF to take the job of transfers and don't depend on the manager much.

After that the perfect choice seems to be Poch, but I can't see him leaving. He seems very committed to Spurs job even if their stars leave I can't see him moving to United at the moment, so the most realistic choice will be Allegri. Allegri will carry on from Jose and keeps on the same track so no need for a rebuild. He also plays the 3-5-2 and 4-2-3-1 mostly so not much will be changed. We'll need to add few more world class players in the attack and we'll be fine under him. He's not gonna last much at Juve for sure and unless Chelsea snatch him first he'll be available.

Just to be clear he also has his problems in match tactics from time to time like the last CL final, and as I said he has no personality in front of the board regarding transfers so getting a DOF will be a must. Otherwise as long as Poch isn't available yeah he's the perfect choice for me.

Simeone will make those who always complain about Jose's defensive tactics go mad. :lol: Allegri is much, much more balanced in his style than him but still pragmatic.
I'm very aware of Allegri's problems, so we should be getting a DOF once Mourinho leaves.
 

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I haven't mentioned trophies in my last post as far as I'm concerned.

I said the way they're judged will be different once they get a top club. The way we judge Tuchel in BVB by no means will be the same he'll be judged by when he gets Bayern or PSG job. Once they prove their ability in leading a big club under harsher expectations and targets, they'll be considered as elite managers, now they're considered promising young managers with wishful thinking that they'll make it at top level once they get the opportunity.

All the talk about man management, leadership and tactics are far harder to implement at big clubs that seek immediate success than it's a at a club like BVB and Monaco. I don't think we can argue about that tbh. It's whether Tuchel will be able to do the same work at the big club he'll get is what will define him being a top manager or not.
Ok, I just don't agree at all with your line that its wishful thinking. They have clear potential.
 

JPRouve

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I thought I was talking about that the whole rest of the argument.

I had seen Poch putting several masterclass games against big clubs in England and recently in Europe too. He hasn't actually one dimensional in his approach to big games anymore. I saw him playing some pragmatic approach based on counters against Madrid on their pitch and executed it perfectly. I haven't seen Jardim doing a similar number of masterclass tactics in big games recently, even when he reached CL semi-final, the first team who played them with different tactics and approach, the team got schooled. Poch isn't a one trick pony imo.
By that logic Allegri is a one trick pony the first team that did something different, Real Madrid, schooled them in the CL final. And it makes no sense to call Jardim a one trick pony when you are talking about a season where he used a new main trick and changed his approach every other games. I'm under the impression that you don't know Tuchel or Jardim.
 

el3mel

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By that logic Allegri is a one trick pony the first team that did something different, Real Madrid, schooled them in the CL final. And it makes no sense to call Jardim a one trick pony when you are talking about a season where he used a new main trick and changed his approach every other games. I'm under the impression that you don't know Tuchel or Jardim.
It's pretty lame comparison to say a manager is one trick pony because he lost a CL final when he reached the final twice in 3 years knocking some big names in his way like Madrid in 2015 and Barca in 2017, after Juve were getting knocked out of the group stage before him and using this as a comparison to Jardim who couldn't cope with a team that had different approach than City and BVB and played completely to their hand, pretty lame.

Anyway the question is simple, tell us some of Jardim's masterclasses against big guns that makes him better tactically than Poch ?
 

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It's pretty lame comparison to say a manager is one trick pony because he lost a CL final when he reached the final twice in 3 years knocking some big names in his way like Madrid in 2015 and Barca in 2017, after Juve were getting knocked out of the group stage before him and using this as a comparison to Jardim who couldn't cope with a team that had different approach than City and BVB and played completely to their hand, pretty lame.

Anyway the question is simple, tell us some of Jardim's masterclasses against big guns that makes him better tactically than Poch ?
I didn't say that he was a one trick pony, I think that none of them are one trick ponies, they are all pretty good managers and none of them lack tactical flexibility. You are the one throwing that term around because Juventus a far more experienced and talented team beat Monaco in the semi finals of the CL.

And what is a tactical masterclass exactly? Monaco beat PSG and Arsenal mainly on tactical grounds, more than once in the case of PSG.
 

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Let's agree to disagree then. :)
No problem with that, although I must say that you changed what you were essentially saying yesterday as it was more about them not being the managers who will win you anything, just play nice football as proven in previous clubs. Today it's more in the line we'll see how they will cope with it as there are different expectations.

I agree with many points in Allegri post btw
 

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I didn't say that he was a one trick pony, I think that none of them are one trick ponies, they are all pretty good managers and none of them lack tactical flexibility. You are the one throwing that term around because Juventus a far more experienced and talented team beat Monaco in the semi finals of the CL.

And what is a tactical masterclass exactly? Monaco beat PSG and Arsenal mainly on tactical grounds, more than once in the case of PSG.
Why are you bringing Juve being more experienced and talented team than Monaco when the point of comparison is between Jardim and Poch regarding changing their approach and modelling it against big guns that are superior tactically ? Poch was about to knock Juve out of the CL except for the second half, and played an excellent tactical game in Turin, even if you think that he and his players bottled it in the second half, while Jardim's team got schooled by Juve easily and were in danger of getting knocked out by Monaco in both games because they played a different tactical approach than City (and PSG and Arsenal if you love it). Poch has surpassed Jardim regarding this imo. He had put several pragmatic tactics against big guns and didn't just go toe on toe with them blindly. You can have as much reservations about Poch, but I'm struggling to see you having any proof in your argument that proves Jardim is a superior manager to Poch.
 

JPRouve

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Why are you bringing Juve being more experienced and talented team than Monaco when the point of comparison is between Jardim and Poch regarding changing their approach and modelling it against big guns that are superior tactically ? Poch was about to knock Juve out of the CL except for the second half, and played an excellent tactical game in Turin, even if you think that he and his players bottled it in the second half, while Jardim's team got schooled by Juve easily and were in danger of getting knocked out by Monaco in both games because they played a different tactical approach than City (and PSG and Arsenal if you love it). Poch has surpassed Jardim regarding this imo. He had put several pragmatic tactics against big guns and didn't just go toe on toe with them blindly. You can have as much reservations about Poch, but I'm struggling to see you having any proof in your argument that proves Jardim is a superior manager to Poch.
Because you used the loss against Juventus to justify your one trick pony argument. I have zero reservations about Poch, I rate him highly and I think that he is very good tactically, the same way I think Jardim is very good tactically. What I take offense with is the one trick pony argument that you have, Jardim is a pragmatic manager that's what he has done for the better part of his career at Monaco that's how he eliminated Arsenal and how he narrowly lost to Juventus in 2015, that's how he played most of the games against big guns at the exception of last season because his roster was totally unbalanced with very little defensively sound players, it wasn't possible to play pragmatic with that team which is why he switched to a very aggressive approach, with a mix of possession and counter attack depending on the opposition.

Jardim is typically the type of manager that adapts to the team he gets from the DOF, in 2015 he had good defenders and in 2017 he had good attackers.

EDIT: To make it clear, Jardim isn't a one trick and he isn't less proven than Pochettino, you can put one above the other if you want to but it won't change these two points.
 
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el3mel

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Because you used the loss against Juventus to justify your one trick pony argument. I have zero reservations about Poch, I rate him highly and I think that he is very good tactically, the same way I think Jardim is very good tactically. What I take offense with is the one trick pony argument that you have, Jardim is a pragmatic manager that's what he has done for the better part of his career at Monaco that's how he eliminated Arsenal and how he narrowly lost to Juventus in 2015, that's how he played most of the games against big guns at the exception of last season because his roster was totally unbalanced with very little defensively sound players, it wasn't possible to play pragmatic with that team which is why he switched to a very aggressive approach, with a mix of possession and counter attack depending on the opposition.

Jardim is typically the type of manager that adapts to the team he gets from the DOF, in 2015 he had good defenders and in 2017 he had good attackers.
No problem in appointing an aggressive approach with the set of players he had but he should have set up different tactically against Juve, even if he ended up losing to them because they're more experienced, they could have done better imo.
 

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No problem in appointing an aggressive approach with the set of players he had but he should have set up different tactically against Juve, even if he ended up losing to them because they're more experienced, they could have done better imo.
I'm fine with that and can understand that point but it has nothing to do with your initial point, a tactically flexible manager can have a bad game or two, it happens all the time. But it doesn't make them one trick ponies and it doesn't cancel their achievements.
 

el3mel

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I'm fine with that and can understand that point but it has nothing to do with your initial point, a tactically flexible manager can have a bad game or two, it happens all the time. But it doesn't make them one trick ponies and it doesn't cancel their achievements.
Ok. Can see your point too.