Turning on Rangnick

LazyGoal

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The team looked like dog shit under Ole. Was it signing Sancho, Ronaldo and Varane, who knows? But we've been terrible and regressed massively and Ole was in charge of the defeats to Villa, Liverpool, Leicester, City and Watford so it's not something that has just come about under Rangnick. He has inherited a squad that were getting hammered every week and hes had a month, it's impossible to judge him yet.
The games you are talking about happend within 6 weeks. And you dont want do discuss Rangnick becouse its been 4 weeks, and he is only going to be here for 24 weeks. 10% of his time here in charge as allready passed.

For his regin Ole had more points than Klopp, but you where happy to see him go? Makes sense.
 

Toblerone92

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Those turning on Rangnick already are embarrassing themselves. No more needs to be said regarding that.

In terms of the rest of the season, I frankly could not care less if we finish 8th but show at least some sign of a coherent attacking plan and manage to bring some academy players into the first team seat up to provide a much needed influx of fresh blood and energy.

We are not going to win anything with Ronaldo, Cavani and Matic in the team at the same time, so please spare us the geriatric performances that invariably come when you start all three and have the balls to make some serious changes. Thanks Ralf.
 

Hackman2210

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That performance was a result of 5 changes of direction since fergie left. The same fans calling for rangnarick out where calling for Moyes out. If we had kept moyes would we be further along than we are now? Course we fecking would have!! Fickle fans. You guys would put Pogba in charge.
 

horsechoker

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That performance was a result of 5 changes of direction since fergie left. The same fans calling for rangnarick out where calling for Moyes out. If we had kept moyes would we be further along than we are now? Course we fecking would have!! Fickle fans. You guys would put Pogba in charge.
Could you be onto something?

No
 

Hackman2210

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Could you be onto something?

No
He might be better suited to a player manager - decker hardly ever plays…..
 

DSG

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The team looked like dog shit under Ole. Was it signing Sancho, Ronaldo and Varane, who knows? But we've been terrible and regressed massively and Ole was in charge of the defeats to Villa, Liverpool, Leicester, City and Watford so it's not something that has just come about under Rangnick. He has inherited a squad that were getting hammered every week and hes had a month, it's impossible to judge him yet.
Again, this isn’t about Ole. He needed to go. Not sure why you keep bringing up Ole. My greatest concern is that when a manager comes in there is generally a response. I’m unconvinced that the players are buying in to his ideas. If it’s Conte, Simeone, Pep, Klopp… no doubt that if you don’t buy in, you’re in the doghouse.

I don’t think that Rangnick fits this squad. His ideas aren’t translating to performances on the pitch. Calling it now. I hope I’m wrong.
 

DSG

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That does beg the question of who can manage this lot successfully? If winning multiple trophies is the criteria, Ten Hag is also ruled out - the players would simply ignore him. Ditto Pochettino and Rodgers.

Also, if we look at which players have won major trophies, I'm not sure they are the ones we should be clinging on to. Won a major trophy:

  • De Gea, Jones, Pogba, Ronaldo, Mata, Varane, Cavani, Matic

Other than De Gea and Varane, I doubt any of them will be here next season.
No, I don’t think so. They were managed to 2nd and a Europa final… I don’t think Rangnick is good enough to manage this type of club. Could he manage Real? PSG?

You know, Ancelloti is kind of the anti Ralf. Steady at the tiller, fitting tactics around a talented squad… maybe that is what we need.
 

DSG

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I mean I'm not counting Pogba when he hasn't played a game under Rangnick yet, no one knows how that will go, and Cavani is gone at the end of the season too. I think you have to look at the core group of players not a few outliers that will be gone soon regardless of who the manager is.

Who are Shaw, Maguire, AWB, McTominay, Fred, Sancho, Greenwood, Rashford etc. to look down on a manager's CV. This is the problem, we have a bunch of players that think they're above the level they really are.
They’ve been managed by Jose, and Ole, a club legend, some of them LvG, a CL winner.

I do think that when you are playing at an extremely high level, full internationals, and one of the biggest clubs in the world, you expect a manager to show you the way to win titles. When a manager who never played and never won a title is brought in , it’s natural to have questions. Period.
 

ryansgirl

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Tell that to Real Madrid, Chelsea, etc.
For me, Rangnick's making questionable decisions in selection and in-game management. I've never been a manager-cult kind of person, so I'll call him out.
Still can't believe he's making some of the same decisions as the previous guy and expecting different results.
I see your point but Real Madrid and Chelsea have splashed the cash extremely for decades now - United dominated the 90s and up til before Sir Alex retired while avoiding that. Sir Alex wanted the money to buy the likes of Figo back in the day but United was never that kind of club.
United's trend has been to spend a lot more since Sir Alex retired but it hasn't worked out the way it did for Real Madrid and Chelsea etc.

The chopping and changing at those clubs is also something I think United should avoid - but that's too late, we've done our version of it since Sir Alex retired and it has done very little although Louis Van Gaal and Mourinho won silverware.
 

L1nk

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The games you are talking about happend within 6 weeks. And you dont want do discuss Rangnick becouse its been 4 weeks, and he is only going to be here for 24 weeks. 10% of his time here in charge as allready passed.

For his regin Ole had more points than Klopp, but you where happy to see him go? Makes sense.
What is this absolute mess of a post dear me… yes those results happened in six weeks, but Ole had been at the club for multiple seasons beforehand? Its his team, its his tactics, he didnt just show up like Rangnick just has

Damn he’s better than Klopp we should have kept Ole
 

HailtotheKing

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Very hard to see this changing unless he changes the formation or drops Ronaldo. I’d like to see Donny played in midfield to get some control. But the only way that’s happening is if he plays in a 3. We just don’t seem to have the right players for Ralf’s preferred formation especially if we have to play Ronaldo. Hopefully Ralf is smart enough to figure it out.
 

Not a plastic hoe.

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Speaking of our players apparently “not listening to Ralf and find executing his 4 2 2 2 formation hard” the other day when chelsea played against spurs Tuchel interestingly enough used 4 2 2 2 formation when his team was attacking instead of his usual one and the players executed it so well they barely made spurs do anything significant throughout the match. Tuchel said that he needed one training session to get them “used to it” and keep in mind that was their B team playing.
Our players need to be patient with Ralf and actually grow up and be responsible.
 

ericthered76

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Very hard to see this changing unless he changes the formation or drops Ronaldo. I’d like to see Donny played in midfield to get some control. But the only way that’s happening is if he plays in a 3. We just don’t seem to have the right players for Ralf’s preferred formation especially if we have to play Ronaldo. Hopefully Ralf is smart enough to figure it out.
Its pretty simple to solve, sack Fred the Red, sell DDG.

All will then be alreet.
 

UpWithRivers

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I got to say I am doubting the 4-2-2-2, however how anybody can pass final judgement after 5 games is beyond me. On top if it he inherited a team thats just fkd. Nobody in form bar De Gea, loads of infighting, imbalanced, too big a squad, players wanting out and on and on. I mean whats he supposed to do the fkers wont even run and back stab him to the press every chance they get. People saying oh we should have got Conte are deluded. They would do the exact same thing to him and it could have even been worse.

Also people keep saying he is playing the same players etc. He should just drop them all. But what is he supposed to do. He cant just walk in and drop all the big name players. He had to give them a chance. He has already dropped, Shaw, WB, Maguire, Bruno, Fred, Rashford. He gave Lingard a game and he looked like he never gave a sht. He gave Jones an opportunity. Ok somewhat forced. He gave Elanga an opportunity. What else is he supposed to do in a month?

Rangnick might not turn out to be a great manager but he looks a good choice to try and turn this fkin circus around.
 
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LazyGoal

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It looks like Rangnick might fail on his most important task the first weeks at this club, and that is to build trust. Now trust is a strange and fragile thing in the start, and its like a mucel you build.


Leadership in any organisation works like this:

First of all, you need to gain trust. If you dont this will happen:

1. Absence of trust—unwilling to be vulnerable within the group

This^ leads to this:

2. Fear of conflict—seeking artificial harmony over constructive passionate debate

This^ leads to this:

3. Lack of commitment—feigning buy-in for group decisions creates ambiguity throughout the organization


This^ leads to this:

4. Avoidance of accountability—ducking the responsibility to call peers, superiors on counterproductive behavior which sets low standards


This^ leads to this:

5. Inattention to results — focusing on personal success, status and ego before team success

I fear, and it looks to me, that Rangnick is failing on the trust part — and that worrys me. It might be very hard to understand for a guy who was God in his privious clubs — that he dont even have trust now, and the importance of it.


The issues it describes were considered especially important to team sports. The book's lessons were applied by several coaches to their teams in the National Football League in the United States.[3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Dysfunctions_of_a_Team
 
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UpWithRivers

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It looks like Rangnick might fail on his most important task the first weeks at this club, and that is to build trust. Now trust is a strange and fragile thing in the start, and its like a mucel you build.


Leadership in any organisation works like this:

First of all, you need to gain trust. If you dont this will happen:

1. Absence of trust—unwilling to be vulnerable within the group

This^ leads to this:

2. Fear of conflict—seeking artificial harmony over constructive passionate debate

This^ leads to this:

3. Lack of commitment—feigning buy-in for group decisions creates ambiguity throughout the organization


This^ leads to this:

4. Avoidance of accountability—ducking the responsibility to call peers, superiors on counterproductive behavior which sets low standards


This^ leads to this:

5. Inattention to results — focusing on personal success, status and ego before team success

I fear, and it looks to me, that Rangnick is failing on the trust part — and that worrys me. It might be very hard to understand for a guy who was God in his privious clubs — that he dont even have trust now, and the importance of it.
ok Sigmund
 

dogrob

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Anybody expecting us to win anything of note with Ralf Rangnick is barking up the wrong tree his job isn't to make the team world beaters its to save choosing the wrong manager short term because finding decent manager mid season is impossible, the most important work Rangnick will do will be as a consultant for two years but only if the board and owners listen to him because if the club dont modernize then it will be the same old merrygoround year in year out.
 

Salford_Red83

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It looks like Rangnick might fail on his most important task the first weeks at this club, and that is to build trust. Now trust is a strange and fragile thing in the start, and its like a mucel you build.


Leadership in any organisation works like this:

First of all, you need to gain trust. If you dont this will happen:

1. Absence of trust—unwilling to be vulnerable within the group

This^ leads to this:

2. Fear of conflict—seeking artificial harmony over constructive passionate debate

This^ leads to this:

3. Lack of commitment—feigning buy-in for group decisions creates ambiguity throughout the organization


This^ leads to this:

4. Avoidance of accountability—ducking the responsibility to call peers, superiors on counterproductive behavior which sets low standards


This^ leads to this:

5. Inattention to results — focusing on personal success, status and ego before team success

I fear, and it looks to me, that Rangnick is failing on the trust part — and that worrys me. It might be very hard to understand for a guy who was God in his privious clubs — that he dont even have trust now, and the importance of it.
These players need to understand that Rangnick is going nowhere, not in the next 6 months nor the next 2 years. And he is and will be the guy in charge so regardless they need to get on board.
 

Buster15

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It looks like Rangnick might fail on his most important task the first weeks at this club, and that is to build trust. Now trust is a strange and fragile thing in the start, and its like a mucel you build.


Leadership in any organisation works like this:

First of all, you need to gain trust. If you dont this will happen:

1. Absence of trust—unwilling to be vulnerable within the group

This^ leads to this:

2. Fear of conflict—seeking artificial harmony over constructive passionate debate

This^ leads to this:

3. Lack of commitment—feigning buy-in for group decisions creates ambiguity throughout the organization


This^ leads to this:

4. Avoidance of accountability—ducking the responsibility to call peers, superiors on counterproductive behavior which sets low standards


This^ leads to this:

5. Inattention to results — focusing on personal success, status and ego before team success

I fear, and it looks to me, that Rangnick is failing on the trust part — and that worrys me. It might be very hard to understand for a guy who was God in his privious clubs — that he dont even have trust now, and the importance of it.
Interesting.
So how does he go about gaining the trust of the players.
And can he achieve that assuming that trust is not there at the moment ?
 

Ixion

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The games you are talking about happend within 6 weeks. And you dont want do discuss Rangnick becouse its been 4 weeks, and he is only going to be here for 24 weeks. 10% of his time here in charge as allready passed.

For his regin Ole had more points than Klopp, but you where happy to see him go? Makes sense.
This post is such a mess, its so incoherent it's hard to know what point you're trying to make. Those games happened within 6 weeks yes...after 2.5 years in charge prior to it, building the squad and training the players. Rangnick has had 4 weeks and that's it, and had no say in the players he gets to pick from.

You know what also happened before that 6 week period, the Europa League Final disaster, and the 2-4 loss at OT to Liverpool. Things were falling apart at the end of last season not just the start of this.

Post your stats to show Ole had more points than Klopp during his reign as Klopp's Liverpool ended one of the seasons with 99 points to United's 66 and we definitely haven't amassed 33 more points than them in the others. If you mean for the corresponding seasons then it's still false, Klopp's first 100 games equaled more points than Ole's. Ole's claim to fame is building a squad that excelled in empty stadiums then bottled it as soon as fans came back.
 

Penna

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It looks like Rangnick might fail on his most important task the first weeks at this club, and that is to build trust. Now trust is a strange and fragile thing in the start, and its like a mucel you build.


Leadership in any organisation works like this:

First of all, you need to gain trust. If you dont this will happen:

1. Absence of trust—unwilling to be vulnerable within the group

This^ leads to this:

2. Fear of conflict—seeking artificial harmony over constructive passionate debate

This^ leads to this:

3. Lack of commitment—feigning buy-in for group decisions creates ambiguity throughout the organization


This^ leads to this:

4. Avoidance of accountability—ducking the responsibility to call peers, superiors on counterproductive behavior which sets low standards


This^ leads to this:

5. Inattention to results — focusing on personal success, status and ego before team success

I fear, and it looks to me, that Rangnick is failing on the trust part — and that worrys me. It might be very hard to understand for a guy who was God in his privious clubs — that he dont even have trust now, and the importance of it.
If you're lifting large amounts of text from another source, please acknowledge said source.
 

DanielofLeyland

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For me, the fundamental issue lies with the players on the pitch and the lack of leadership. We have a team put together over the last few years that certainly has talent but can't play as a team. This is due to no communication on the pitch.

If there is no communication then players are expected to carry the burden of responsibility themselves for their actions. Then when something goes awry the players show their frustrations either at each other, the opposition or the officials and they blame the other for a bad performance.

This isn't one person's job. They should all be working together on this. For example, McTominay against Wolves often positioned himself in between defenders making it difficult for him to receive the ball. That was easy for me to see in the stands but perhaps less so on the pitch. It needs players in front to tell him to move into holes to build up the play more effectively.

They should be talking to each other about their movements and positions and calling for the ball. The shocking passing from our team against Wolves can't just be down to ineffective passing skill. There is a breakdown in understanding who will be where and when. Rangnick can take some of the blame if his system is leading to this but we saw similar episodes under Ole as well.

Ronaldo was captain against Wolves but I think some of these players have been used to being told its OK by Ole to keep squad harmony and when a serial winner comes in they dont like it. When the Wolves goal went in Ronaldo was calling the players back and pointing to his wrist. None were particularly bothered.

We need players who will communicate throughout the game to each other and the fundamentals will fall into place. Rangnick or whoever else comes in can only build strategy, tactics and success if the players on the pitch take his instruction and help each other perform.
 

mctrials23

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It looks like Rangnick might fail on his most important task the first weeks at this club, and that is to build trust. Now trust is a strange and fragile thing in the start, and its like a mucel you build.
We're not adopting a puppy or taking in an orphan. These are a bunch of grown ass men and the new manager shouldn't have to coax them out from under the bed with a treat.

These players are just overpaid and underworked and have been for far too long. They think they can get away with doing what they want which lets be honest, we have very much nurtured. We haven't played like a team in the top half of the league for at least 2 years now and have been saved by having squads that cost 5-10x the amount of most other teams in the league and having players that can generally, over 90 minutes create something special a few times.
 

jem

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By rotting you mean finishing 3rd and then 2nd? Reaching semi finals? That kind of rotting?

Yes the time for Ole to go had come but this is worse than what he was getting out of the squad
Really? This is worse than losing 4-2 to Leicester, 5-0 to LFC, 2-0 to City, and 4-1 to Watford? The fact that he managed to fashion any kind of unbeaten run out of these wasters is an achievement in itself.
 

jem

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Managers have been fired for less. Fortunately for him we've secured points whilst playing abysmally. That seems to have have changed now.
For losing one match in their first 5-6 games? I don't think even the Watford owner would be that rash.
 

Hansi Fick

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When Solskjaer was fired, United had 17 points from 12 league games meaning ~1.4 points per game
When Rangnick took over, United had 21 points from 14 games, meaning 1.5 ponts per game. Carrick had managed 2 ppg in his 2 games.

Since then, Rangnick has 10 points in 5 games, meaning 2 points per game.

Objectively, the results have been better, overall decent and not worthy of a full scale melt down, all with tabloid armageddon and civil war, as we're seeing on here. And yes, I know performances have been poor. But the timeframe is ridiculously small to make any judgements about a manager's work, or to declare war on the whole squad.

If you were expecting more of a new manager bounce, maybe take into account that Carrick might have grazed a good part of it with his two games against Chelsea and Arsenal.
If you were expecting a Klopp or Tuchel like figure or footballing quality, you had the wrong expectations.

How can a fanbase lose its shit so badly and unreasonably?
 

LazyGoal

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When Solskjaer was fired, United had 17 points from 12 league games meaning ~1.4 points per game
When Rangnick took over, United had 21 points from 14 games, meaning 1.5 ponts per game. Carrick had managed 2 ppg in his 2 games.

Since then, Rangnick has 10 points in 5 games, meaning 2 points per game.

Objectively, the results have been better, overall decent and not worthy of a full scale melt down, all with tabloid armageddon and civil war, as we're seeing on here. And yes, I know performances have been poor. But the timeframe is ridiculously small to make any judgements about a manager's work, or to declare war on the whole squad.

If you were expecting more of a new manager bounce, maybe take into account that Carrick might have grazed a good part of it with his two games against Chelsea and Arsenal.
If you were expecting a Klopp or Tuchel like figure or footballing quality, you had the wrong expectations.

How can a fanbase lose its shit so badly and unreasonably?
Becouse what he is doing is a long time strategy, while he has just about 20 games left.
 

TheReligion

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I don't know what 'turns Rangnick on' @horsechoker you sex pest and notorious street urchin.

I do hope I don't catch you at Carrington cracking one of in the perimeter forest that van Gaal planted to shield the wind.
 

Ixion

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Becouse what he is doing is a long time strategy, while he has just about 20 games left.
His role is to prepare us for the long term, which includes his time as a consultant after the interim job. He is not just here to focus on 20 games.
 

macheda14

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The games you are talking about happend within 6 weeks. And you dont want do discuss Rangnick becouse its been 4 weeks, and he is only going to be here for 24 weeks. 10% of his time here in charge as allready passed.

For his regin Ole had more points than Klopp, but you where happy to see him go? Makes sense.
2 of which the training ground was shut. Until the beginning of this week Rangnick has only had about 6 days of real training with the team out on the grass. Most of those the day before games where the focus is on preparation and conserving their energy levels. The rest of the time has been recovery, Covid and video sessions.

Under Ole we had been pretty shit since about March. Those six weeks were a culmination in a steady decline in form that then resulted in the team falling off a cliff. There was no way back.

In regards to his 'long term planning', Poch and Ten Hag seem to be the front runners. Both managers like their teams to press, while their systems are different to each other and to Rangnick there are some fundamentals shared. If he trains the team to press as a team, then he will have laid a very solid foundation for the next manager.
 

Lentwood

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I don’t think that Rangnick fits this squad. His ideas aren’t translating to performances on the pitch. Calling it now. I hope I’m wrong.
The ideas of Moyes, LvG, Jose or Ole didn't translate into performances on the pitch either!

They never will if we don't give them time, and time means two or three seasons, not two or three months. What we must do is stop chopping and changing styles, and get the backroom/boardroom teams right, so that there is a continuous cycle of sound footballing decisions being made to support the manager
 

LazyGoal

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His role is to prepare us for the long term, which includes his time as a consultant after the interim job. He is not just here to focus on 20 games.
If so. What can be better preperation than get us CL next year?

The ideas of Moyes, LvG, Jose or Ole didn't translate into performances on the pitch either!

They never will if we don't give them time, and time means two or three seasons, not two or three months. What we must do is stop chopping and changing styles, and get the backroom/boardroom teams right, so that there is a continuous cycle of sound footballing decisions being made to support the manager
Well. Time, time, time.I used to belive in time as well.

But, the reality and truth is. There is no more two years building stuff. There is only short term result. We truly belive that and our actions show that — becouse we sack the manager if we loose 8 out of 12 games. Dont listen to what people say, see what they do. So, if that is the game, lets play it.

This means:
1. new managers get 25 games to prove them self. If they dont avarage >2.0 point per game on the last 15 they are sacked. If the manager get passed the first 25 games, he will be sacked if he run into a slump where he avarges 1,7 points over a 10 game period. He must avarage >2.0 at any given 50 game period.

2.We sell all players who have not played more than 5 of the last 30 games, regardless of potential

3. we set a maxmimum on 25 players in the squad. No manager should have the luxury to not prioritize to get a new toy.

4. we are willing to pay to get rid. In fact we should take pride in it.

5. we shut down the academy and focus all our resources and energy on the 25 man squad.

6. we only buy players with outstanding stats from top leauges and who are in their prime. No more buying «potential».

7. we stop all loans, either you are good enough or you are not here. These loans take to much focus and energy..

8. we invest yearly twice as much as any other club in machine learning and sport sceience

9. any player who cant run 11 500 meters in 45 minutes, take a 15 min break, and run 13 000 meters back within 50 minutes - will not get a start for the club.

10. we sell any player with an 20 game avarage < 6,5 @sofascore

11. we make a roof we can pull over when it rain’s at Old Trafford

12. we do all the above for the women team, becouse we live in 2022 and is the right thing to do.

Thats all we need to do ;)
 
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Hansi Fick

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If so. What can be better preperation than get us CL next year?



Well. Time, time, time.I used to belive in time as well.

But, the reality and truth is. There is no more two years building stuff. There is only short term result. We truly belive that and our actions show that — becouse we sack the manager if we loose 8 out of 12 games. Dont listen to what people say, see what they do. So, if that is the game, lets play it.

This means:
1. new managers get 25 games to prove them self. If they dont avarage >2.0 point per game on the last 15 they are sacked. If the manager get passed the first 25 games, he will be sacked if he run into a slump where he avarges 1,7 points over a 10 game period. He must avarage >2.0 at any given 50 game period.

2.We sell all players who have not played more than 5 of the last 30 games, regardless of potential

3. we set a maxmimum on 25 players in the squad. No manager should have the luxury to not prioritize to get a new toy.

4. we are willing to pay to get rid. In fact we should take pride in it.

5. we shut down the academy and focus all our resources and energy on the 25 man squad.

6. we only buy players with outstanding stats from top leauges and who are in their prime. No more buying «potential».

7. we stop all loans, either you are good enough or you are not here. These loans take to much focus and energy..

8. we invest yearly twice as much as any other club in machine learning and sport sceience

9. any player who cant run 11 500 meters in 45 minutes, take a 15 min break, and run 13 000 meters back within 50 minutes - will not get a start for the club.

10. we sell any player with an 20 game avarage < 6,5 @sofascore

11. we make a roof we can pull over when it rain’s at Old Trafford

Thats all we need to do ;)
 

Ixion

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Messages
15,275
If so. What can be better preperation than get us CL next year?
Turn us into a team that can keep possession when pressed and effectively press ourselves for one. Signing big players because of the CL hasn't helped us get close to a League title since Sir Alex I don't see why it would now. We need to stop being obsessed with top 4 and focus on playing better football.
 

captaincantona

Full Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
973
Apparently more leaks due in the Sunday Papers. Will start coming out round half ten tonight. Only way to change the record is to start winning football matches. Till then the club is gonna just get dragged accross the back pages for a laugh.