U18s: Man Utd v Liverpool

[lysglimt]

I am not blaming the players - I just find it strange that we seem to end up in this position quite frequently with several age groups that aren't good enough. If we end up having to play a bunch of 16 year olds at U18-level - and they aren't physically ready for it, something has been done wrong from the club.

 

[Bigsid]

Instructions from side seemed to centre on working harder and getting back in shape which seems limited for a club attempting to produce Champions league players. Not sure where coaches are from but as an approach to playing I'm not convinced there was much inspiration.

 

[jb8521]

And Liverpool was without Harvey Elliott...well you get the point. It's no excuse really, none of the best U18 players play for Liverpool. City, Chelsea etc. There were some of the explanations but we all could see that some of these players are not as good as the ones we brought in last season, and that is okay. Some generations are better than others. I just don't buy into all of the explanations, this team will find it tough this season, no doubt, and that is due to less talented players. We have never played our best U18s. Hannibal, Shoretire etc never played last season and we were still one of the best in the country.

Well Elliott isn't an u18 so that's not an actual point. You also seem to be missing the point that usually when we move players up to the u23s it means the 2nd choice will play but at the moment we don't even have the 2nd choice available for a number of positions & have ended up having to play players out of position & move up others who clearly aren't physically ready to play against a very physical & far more experienced side made up mainly of 2nd years with Liverpool only missing Mabaya & Gordon from their strongest possible side & playing an overage keeper. Add in the fact that none of Fredricson, Mainoo, Mather have had any preseason because of Covid restrictions, Mainoo & Mather were playing in positions they've played little or no football in & Bennett, Gore & Oyedele have only started training this week after months out, even our more experienced players in Vitek, Jurado, Pye & Garnacho all have a maximum of 10-15 starts for the u18s & it provides a bit of context rather than excuses.

 

[therealtboy]

Well Elliott isn't an u18 so that's not an actual point. You also seem to be missing the point that usually when we move players up to the u23s it means the 2nd choice will play but at the moment we don't even have the 2nd choice available for a number of positions & have ended up having to play players out of position & move up others who clearly aren't physically ready to play against a very physical & far more experienced side made up mainly of 2nd years with Liverpool only missing Mabaya & Gordon from their strongest possible side & playing an overage keeper. Add in the fact that none of Fredricson, Mainoo, Mather have had any preseason because of Covid restrictions, Mainoo & Mather were playing in positions they've played little or no football in & Bennett, Gore & Oyedele have only started training this week after months out & it provides a bit of context rather than excuses.

Most don't understand this mate, we had an even worse situation a few years back with injuries and we were getting beat silly and fans on here were saying, our youth teams are so crap without any of them actually following the team or knowing any of the players.

Once this phase passes we'll see better performances, I like a few of these kids and it's clear some aren't ready but the experience they are getting playing a level up will put them in good stead going forward.

 

[jb8521]

Most don't understand this mate, we had an even worse situation a free years back with injuries and we were getting beat silly and fans on here were saying, our youth teams are so crap without any of them actually following the team or knowing any of the players.

Once this phase passes we'll see better performances, I like a few of these kids and it's clear some aren't ready but the experience they are getting playing a level up will put them in good stead going forward.

Yeah & 4 of the lads from that side are now with our senior team

 

[TwoSheds]

Yeah & 4 of the lads from that side are now with our senior team

Was that the side when McGuinness got the boot and results picked up or are you guys thinking of another period?

 

[jb8521]

Was that the side when McGuinness got the boot and results picked up or are you guys thinking of another period?

Yeah McGuinness lost his job in the 2015/16 season when the u18s were 2nd last in the league. I'm wrong with 4 players it was only 2 in Rashford & Tuanzebe, McTominay & Henderson were u18s the season before

 

[TwoSheds]

Yeah McGuinness lost his job in the 2015/16 season when the u18s were 2nd last in the league. I'm wrong with 4 players it was only 2 in Rashford & Tuanzebe, McTominay & Henderson were u18s the season before

So do you think something might need to be shaken up with the coaching again or do you think it will sort itself naturally as the lads grow up?

 

[Beaucoup]

Well Elliott isn't an u18 so that's not an actual point. You also seem to be missing the point that usually when we move players up to the u23s it means the 2nd choice will play but at the moment we don't even have the 2nd choice available for a number of positions & have ended up having to play players out of position & move up others who clearly aren't physically ready to play against a very physical & far more experienced side made up mainly of 2nd years with Liverpool only missing Mabaya & Gordon from their strongest possible side & playing an overage keeper. Add in the fact that none of Fredricson, Mainoo, Mather have had any preseason because of Covid restrictions, Mainoo & Mather were playing in positions they've played little or no football in & Bennett, Gore & Oyedele have only started training this week after months out, even our more experienced players in Vitek, Jurado, Pye & Garnacho all have a maximum of 10-15 starts for the u18s & it provides a bit of context rather than excuses.

That’s pretty much the team that will feature this season, there are a few players out that will come back into the team, however only Ennis is likely to improve the team, from what I’ve seen so far, he’s nowhere near the level of last seasons strikers. Only Bennett and Gore have been out long term, everyone else has had a decent pre-season.

I don’t think we will see anyone dropping down to help, maybe Hansen at a push. I think it’s probably more likely that some more U16 will be pushed up as there are players it that age group that are too good for U16 football. It’s going to be a hard season, the reality being that some of the players simply aren’t good enough.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Yeah McGuinness lost his job in the 2015/16 season when the u18s were 2nd last in the league. I'm wrong with 4 players it was only 2 in Rashford & Tuanzebe, McTominay & Henderson were u18s the season before

The results only picked up after Paul McGuinness when the club invested in new players.

 

[Mickson]

Well Elliott isn't an u18 so that's not an actual point. You also seem to be missing the point that usually when we move players up to the u23s it means the 2nd choice will play but at the moment we don't even have the 2nd choice available for a number of positions & have ended up having to play players out of position & move up others who clearly aren't physically ready to play against a very physical & far more experienced side made up mainly of 2nd years with Liverpool only missing Mabaya & Gordon from their strongest possible side & playing an overage keeper. Add in the fact that none of Fredricson, Mainoo, Mather have had any preseason because of Covid restrictions, Mainoo & Mather were playing in positions they've played little or no football in & Bennett, Gore & Oyedele have only started training this week after months out, even our more experienced players in Vitek, Jurado, Pye & Garnacho all have a maximum of 10-15 starts for the u18s & it provides a bit of context rather than excuses.

Elliot was eligible to play last season and didn't. If Elliott would've played the whole season, Liverpool obviously would be much better. I made the point with Elliott because I'm sure Liverpool has 18-year-olds who play with the U23 instead of U18, so basically, every team can say that "if player A would've played we would've won". Of course, as you say, the pre-season hasn't been ideal but I think it's pretty clear that this group isn't as strong as the one before. It's not like Bennett will save this team. If not Forson, Hansen etc will play, this group will struggle badly I think and I don't know if it's good for their development if they lose every week.

 

[Drainy]

Elliot was eligible to play last season and didn't. If Elliott would've played the whole season, Liverpool obviously would be much better. I made the point with Elliott because I'm sure Liverpool has 18-year-olds who play with the U23 instead of U18, so basically, every team can say that "if player A would've played we would've won". Of course, as you say, the pre-season hasn't been ideal but I think it's pretty clear that this group isn't as strong as the one before. It's not like Bennett will save this team. If not Forson, Hansen etc will play, this group will struggle badly I think and I don't know if it's good for their development if they lose every week.

And development for the first team is ultimately all that matters.

Even if this group is not considered as talented it doesn't matter too much if the strategy is to support the development of the higher rated players in the older generation and have 'one or two' real prospects.

The point is that we have a lot of promoted players in a very similar age bracket (eligible for the u18s). We may see them all back for the Youth Cup but the league is not that important.

 

[Bigsid]

That’s pretty much the team that will feature this season, there are a few players out that will come back into the team, however only Ennis is likely to improve the team, from what I’ve seen so far, he’s nowhere near the level of last seasons strikers. Only Bennett and Gore have been out long term, everyone else has had a decent pre-season.

I don’t think we will see anyone dropping down to help, maybe Hansen at a push. I think it’s probably more likely that some more U16 will be pushed up as there are players it that age group that are too good for U16 football. It’s going to be a hard season, the reality being that some of the players simply aren’t good enough.

Be a long season then. Not convinced level of 16s that have moved up have been amazing when we consider past talents. Lads playing internationally are already playing up so would it make sense to throw more in as in games like yesterday it could easily get to double figures

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Everyone talks about 'it's all about development' and to a certain point that's obviously true. All our successful periods in the past have come when we had a backdrop of successful youth teams. For me at U/16 level and below it's primarily development but once you hit U/18's its both development and winning. Success breeds success and it becomes a habit. It develops desire, confidence and maturity.

You're starting to build a mindset and resilience that's necessary to enter senior football. These kids are all around 17 and the good ones will be close to the first team so it's too late to just flick a switch and say..."ok it's all about winning now".

That has to come earlier.

I think our lack of success in the FA Youth Cup over the last decade is partly down to this lack of balance.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

Everyone talks about 'it's all about development' and to a certain point that's obviously true. All our successful periods in the past have come when we had a backdrop of successful youth teams. For me at U/16 level and below it's primarily development but once you hit U/18's its both development and winning. Success breeds success and it becomes a habit. It develops desire, confidence and maturity.

You're starting to build a mindset and resilience that's necessary to enter senior football. These kids are all around 17 and the good ones will be close to the first team so it's too late to just flick a switch and say..."ok it's all about winning now".

That has to come earlier.

I think our lack of success in the FA Youth Cup over the last decade is partly down to this lack of balance.

Yep, completely agree.

I thought that as I was reading some of the posts but didn't respond as everything's so black or white on social media and this issue just becomes a battle between 'Caring only about short term winning vs Taking the long view of developing players'. But, as you say, it's not either/or - there's a balance between the two and getting that right is what it's all meant to be about.

Of course we should continue promoting them when they're ready for their development, and not keep them down levels longer than necessary just to think about short term results. But part of that player development is mentality, and, as you say, at United that's about developing a winning mentality, not getting used to losing.

There's extra reasons for the collective 8-0 losses so far, so this isn't a knee jerk reaction to those. I'm sure results will pick up. It's just a more general point that you can't just completely dismiss results from U18's upwards, as breeding a winning mentality and getting yourself over the line to deliver trophies, is a useful part of player development as well.