U21s: United vs Arsenal

[top1whoisman]

Friday 31 March
19:00 BST
Old Trafford
Live on MUTV

Spoiler: PL2 table

United top scorers (all comps):

Hugill 9
Forson 9
Shoretire 6
McNeill 4
Hansen-Aarøen 3
Jurado 3

Arsenal:

Nathan Butler-Oyedeji 6
Amario Cozier-Duberry 5
Charles Sagoe Jr 4
Marquinhos 4
Khayon Edwards 3

 

[top1whoisman]

Binnion:

"Ultimately, it's where they eventually want to play.

"It's everyone's goal to play there eventually so to get any opportunity to play there in their development years is key.

"Just to soak it all up, put a performance in and gain that confidence from playing there."

"We were fortunate last season to play five of the six [FA Youth Cup] games [at Old Trafford] and obviously the crowds were good throughout, but the final was a magnificent turnout.

"It won't be overawing, it won't be too big of a shock to them, and that's ultimately what we want.

"We don't want them to be shocked when they do get that opportunity [in the first team], if and when it comes down the line."

 

[top1whoisman]

Looking at the 1st team training pictures from Tuesday and adding the players coming back from international duty, the squad to select outfield players from is pretty much:

Jurado
Mengi
Kambwala
Aljofree
Hardley
Murray
Williams? (didn't seem to be even in the reserve group that was training with Sancho, AWB & Fred so perhaps EtH has acted on the latest news?)
Huddlestone
Wellens
Iqbal (trained with the first team this morning so probably won't be involved)
Hansen-Aarøen
Gore?
Forson
Emeran
Mejia
Norkett?

So 9 out of the 16 are defenders, sounds familiar. The U18s don't play until 8 April, so there could be some younger players in the squad for this one. Then again an U17 team has travelled to Florida for the Adidas tournament so we'll see. That one's probably going to be a young team with a lot of U16 & U15 players there.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Genuine question from a blue.
What's the thinking behind the inclusion of Huddlestone and Williams? Noticed them in the recent Derby and it seemed a strange move.
Surely they're depriving a more deserving kid of minutes?

 

[top1whoisman]

Genuine question from a blue.
What's the thinking behind the inclusion of Huddlestone and Williams? Noticed them in the recent Derby and it seemed a strange move.
Surely they're depriving a more deserving kid of minutes?

United signed Paul McShane in 2021 in a double role, which seemed quite interesting. In some matches, for example the Papa John's Trophy, I can see the benefits of having one experienced player on the pitch coaching the younger ones. I like that we've tried something new and different and I'm sure there's a thought process behind that.

That being said, watching Huddlestone playing against Barca U19 and like you said, taking minutes from younger players in PL2 on consistent basis, doesn't seem smart to me. I still think there's time and place for that, but this season more than with McShane the previous one, it feels like Huddlestone is indeed depriving players in his position of important minutes.

With Williams it's a bit different. He was injured until the World Cup and I can see the point in giving him some minutes to get back to match fitness in case we might need him for the first team. But at this point I agree with you that we should prioritise other players.

 

[Beaucoup]

Genuine question from a blue.
What's the thinking behind the inclusion of Huddlestone and Williams? Noticed them in the recent Derby and it seemed a strange move.
Surely they're depriving a more deserving kid of minutes?

It's seems to me that this season Huddlestone is only playing to get results or in the case of the City match, damage limitation. I can see the benefit of having an Ex PL player on the coaching staff, but playing no.

 

[Gentleman Jim]

Thanks for the replies

 

[limerickcitykid]

The benefit of playing alongside a former PL & international player in match situations is clear and obvious and why it is utilized by multiple clubs, many of which are specifically known for having some of the best player development in the country and world. 26 players over the age of 30 have appeared in PL2 this season to the betterment of their teams and the opposition.

The taking minutes from other players doesn't make any sense, and makes even less sense when you claim it was fine with Paul McShane but somehow not with Huddlestone. He has played less than 6.5 matches worth of minutes so far this season. And who exactly is he apparently taking minutes from that is so deserving and being deprived? A fourth choice midfielder or defender? Who should have come on against City? Charlie Wellens? Frankly who gives a feck if Wellens gets an extra 20 minutes? The benefit of our top prospects getting to play alongside an England international massively outweighs a few minutes to our bottom tier products who are going to struggle to even make it in the football league and have 0% chance of a future at the club.

 

[top1whoisman]

The benefit of playing alongside a former PL & international player in match situations is clear and obvious and why it is utilized by multiple clubs, many of which are specifically known for having some of the best player development in the country and world. 26 players over the age of 30 have appeared in PL2 this season to the betterment of their teams and the opposition.

The taking minutes from other players doesn't make any sense, and makes even less sense when you claim it was fine with Paul McShane but somehow not with Huddlestone. He has played less than 6.5 matches worth of minutes so far this season. And who exactly is he apparently taking minutes from that is so deserving and being deprived? A fourth choice midfielder or defender? Who should have come on against City? Charlie Wellens? Frankly who gives a feck if Wellens gets an extra 20 minutes? The benefit of our top prospects getting to play alongside an England international massively outweighs a few minutes to our bottom tier products who are going to struggle to even make it in the football league and have 0% chance of a future at the club.

The point of the academy is not solely to produce player for our first team. Charlie Wellens and his family, as well as potential academy signings probably care if their kid plays before Huddlestone. I felt that in the pitch McShane was able to give something else to the team apart from guidance. Huddlestone just looks totally out of place. Also, McShane played in four PL2 games all season. Rest of them either as an unused sub or part of the coaching staff.

I'm sure there are also positives to playing alongside an experienced professional. Like I said in the first paragraph of my post, I like the fact that we're trying different stuff and I can also see the benefits.

The players who were on the bench who could've played in the same position/instead of Huddlestone in the most recent PL2 games.

Chelsea: Berry, Ethan Williams
Wolves: Jackson, Hansen-Aarøen, Nolan
Palace: Murray, Jurado, Aljofree
Wolves (PJT): McNeill, Norkett

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's seems to me that this season Huddlestone is only playing to get results or in the case of the City match, damage limitation. I can see the benefit of having an Ex PL player on the coaching staff, but playing no.

Come on. You actually think they play him because they see this as the best way to win football matches?

 

[top1whoisman]

It's seems to me that this season Huddlestone is only playing to get results or in the case of the City match, damage limitation. I can see the benefit of having an Ex PL player on the coaching staff, but playing no.

If that would be the case, considering we've won 2 out of 10 in the PL2 games he's played in, it's not going that well.

And I agree with @Pogue Mahone, I know that they don't value winning in PL2 that much, it's all about development of individuals as it should be.

 

[Beaucoup]

Come on. You actually think they play him because they see this as the best way to win football matches?

100%,the U21 started the season very badly and the pressure has been mounting, if you watch the games live there is certainly no "mentoring" from Huddlestone, he's very quiet on the pitch unlike McShane in the same role the previous season.

 

[Beaucoup]

If that would be the case, considering we've won 2 out of 10 in the PL2 games he's played in, it's not going that well.

And I agree with @Pogue Mahone, I know that they don't value winning in PL2 that much, it's all about development of individuals as it should be.

How can it be about developing individuals? if they're sat on the bench watching a fat ex-player struggling to get around the pitch.

 

[top1whoisman]

How can it be about developing individuals? if they're sat on the bench watching a fat ex-player struggling to get around the pitch.

I think in some instances there is value in that too, but as I said I agree that often when there is a suitable player on the bench I'd prefer them getting the minutes instead.

But development is not 100% = minutes on the pitch. It's about creating scenarios that the player might face in their future career, wherever that is. It's about having them face as much different situations as possible, including adversity and disappointment.

That's why I appreciate the direction of our academy to what they do across the city for example. It's all good and fine winning every competition in your academy path, but you will not be as equipped to handle all the bumps in the road as a player who's been dropped, who's been sent off, who's faced a humiliating defeat, who's played out of position etc.

Nick Cox has spoken about this in numerous podcasts and interviews. There's value in having a player not come on in a game, as long as it's not a constant scenario and as long as the player gets an explanation why that has been the case.

 

[top1whoisman]

100%,the U21 started the season very badly and the pressure has been mounting, if you watch the games live there is certainly no "mentoring" from Huddlestone, he's very quiet on the pitch unlike McShane in the same role the previous season.

We even had one season playing in the PL2 Division 2 and it wasn't looked at as a disaster, although not ideal either. So I'd say there's not that much pressure at that level. That's actually the biggest problem with the whole PL2 / U23 / U21 competition format. Regarding the bolded part, I agree to an extent.

 

[Beaucoup]

We even had one season playing in the PL2 Division 2 and it wasn't looked at as a disaster, although not ideal either. So I'd say there's not that much pressure at that level. That's actually the biggest problem with the whole PL2 / U23 / U21 competition format. Regarding the bolded part, I agree to an extent.

I think you greatly underestimate the coaches ego, which is prevalent all through academy football.

 

[top1whoisman]

I think you greatly underestimate the coaches ego, which is prevalent all through academy football.

That's a big part of running an academy too, hiring the right type of coaches for the right level. I'd say we've done pretty good job in that sense too. Or perhaps you've got plenty of examples where we've mistakenly hired an academy coach with a huge ego? I'd say there are so many examples of the opposite that it's not prevalent at United at all.

United's U21/U23 head coaches from the start of the SAF era:

Jimmy Ryan
Mike Phelan
Brian McClair
Ricky Sbragia
René Meulensteen
OGS
Warren Joyce
Nicky Butt
Neil Wood
Mark Dempsey

Personally don't see many big egos on that list. There's probably a good reason why the most ambitious types rarely end up coaching the reserves. In ambitious meaning having ambition of becoming first team managers instead of having ambition of developing young players.

 

[Beaucoup]

That's a big part of running an academy too, hiring the right type of coaches for the right level. I'd say we've done pretty good job in that sense too. Or perhaps you've got plenty of examples where we've mistakenly hired an academy coach with a huge ego? I'd say there are so many examples of the opposite that it's not prevalent at United at all.

There's probably a good reason why the most ambitious types never end up coaching the reserves. In ambitious meaning having ambition of becoming first team managers instead of having ambition of developing young players.

Neal Woods and McKenna both left to become 1st team managers. Do not also think, Binnion and Dempsey want to win every game?

 

[top1whoisman]

Neal Woods and McKenna both left to become 1st team managers. Do not also think, Binnion and Dempsey want to win every game?

"Never" wasn't the best choice of word from me, corrected. Yeah they did, happy for them. Wouldn't say that ego of neither was so big that they preferred winning at U21 level (McKenna didn't coach there so U18 for him) over developing young players though. And they surely were good appointments considering they landed jobs at League One and Two clubs. Neither probably got those because of team results at U18/U21 level.

I'd say that Binnion and Dempsey above all want to help young players reach the best level they can. I'd also say that was the reason they were hired to their respective positions. I'm not saying it'd be ideal to say lose more often than to win, but the I'm pretty sure they are not results-driven. Or else they would probably not be employed at our academy.

 

[top1whoisman]

Nice week for Harrison, first team training and then U21 debut. Kingdon also making his debut at this level.

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[top1whoisman]

Poor Harrison. A huge blunder after such a good start.

0-1

 

[top1whoisman]

Excellent work and a brilliant pass from Gore, Mejía finishes well - 1-1.

 

[Messier1994]

Mejia!!!!!

 

[top1whoisman]

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[top1whoisman]

1-1 HT.

Quite an even half, Arsenal perhaps a little more dangerous. The longer it went on the more we started to control the game.

Gore & Forson very good so far. Got to mention Harrison too, 3-4 brilliant saves & very confident in possession. That’s a good sign for a young keeper that you recover quickly from a mistake.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

Happy with 1-1 at HT as Arsenal have looked much the bigger attacking threat for me.

Harrison has made about 4 important saves - a couple of them very good ones. Terrible mistake from him for the goal - but that's always likely for him each match at this stage. Good shot stopper, very / over confident with the ball at his feet and prone to giving away some goals that way. But all part of his development as a ball playing keeper.

Pleased to see Mejia get a goal. And great work from Gore to set it up.

 

[top1whoisman]

Jurado & Hansen-Aarøen coming on at HT for Emeran & Jackson.

Kingdon moving to CB and Forson to the right flank.

 

[top1whoisman]

Another superb stretch from Harrison. Arsenal all over us.

 

[Messier1994]

Is Huddleston the 2nd best CDM in the organization?

 

[top1whoisman]

Is Huddleston the 2nd best CDM in the organization?

Perhaps as we don’t have any others! Between him and Collyer.

 

[Messier1994]

I like Willy Kambwala a lot. Really hope he can stay healthy for a while.

 

[top1whoisman]

66’ Wellens on for Williams. Seems to slot into the AM role, IHA moves to the left side.

 

[top1whoisman]

Kambwala has been very good tonight. As @Messier1994 said, it’s all about keeping himself fit now.

 

[pascell]

What's happened with Mainoo?

 

[top1whoisman]

What's happened with Mainoo?

In the first team setup. Casemiro & Eriksen out for Sunday + Sabitzer being a doubt, there’s a good chance he’s in the matchday squad.

 

[top1whoisman]

88’ Norkett on for Forson, who was pretty good in the first half but disappeared from the picture totally when he was moved to the right.

Mejía’s turn to take that RW position now.

 

[AltiUn]

What's happened with Mainoo?

Probably be in the first team squad.

 

[top1whoisman]

FT 1-1

That’s a decent point, considering Arsenal were the better team. We failed to create much and especially the second half was all about defending as most of the half we literally stuggled to string two passes together.

It’s not that Arsenal was anything special either or that they pressed us so intensely or anything. Just sloppy passing from United.

Harrison & Kambwala the best players by a clear margin. Gore was good too but struggled to get into the game in the second half, like the whole team.

 

[Bertie Wooster]

FT 1-1

That’s a decent point, considering Arsenal were the better team. We failed to create much and especially the second half was all about defending as most of the half we literally stuggled to string two passes together.

It’s not that Arsenal was anything special either or that they pressed us so intensely or anything. Just sloppy passing from United.

Harrison & Kambwala the best players by a clear margin.

Yep. Good summing up.

 

[Bigsid]

FT 1-1

That’s a decent point, considering Arsenal were the better team. We failed to create much and especially the second half was all about defending as most of the half we literally stuggled to string two passes together.

It’s not that Arsenal was anything special either or that they pressed us so intensely or anything. Just sloppy passing from United.

Harrison & Kambwala the best players by a clear margin. Gore was good too but struggled to get into the game in the second half, like the whole team.

Winnings for losers so who cares! All about development at these ages.