UEFA: abandoned leagues go on points per game or current position.

[RedDevilRoshi]

Apologies if already posted but what would the final league table look like if the season was concluded via points per game?

 

[Sky1981]

We're 3 points behind 3rd spot, having had a much more difficult fixture list...

If the crisis had happened just before matchday 28, Watford and West Ham would be looking at relegation instead of Bournemouth and Villa.

It is force majeure, no result would be satisfactory to every party.

 

[Sky1981]

Yep, cancelling the rest of the season and awarding the CL places based on ppg or current standings would be fine. By "voiding" I meant what the poster I was responding to meant, which was forgetting this season entirely and basing CL places on the results of the 18/19 season. Which wouldn't be allowed.

I don't think there's any real chance of them not awarding Liverpool the title in that scenario though. Whereas not relegating teams is probably more likely. Essentially I think they'll try to avoid actions that leave teams worse off then they already were before the Coronavirus kicked in. Nobody really loses anything if Liverpool are given the title (apart from the small part of my soul that would have been chipped away, that is) but relegation has material consequences.

My guess is they'll try to wrap up the season if they can but if not it will be Liverpool champions, CL places decided by PPG, no relegations.

Not relegating team is fine, but it's not fine for the top 2 in the championship. It's like denying them money.

The FA should just announce this season over, used a one method of calcuations for all remaining games (ppg, average pts) and call it that. Point per game should be awarded to the remaining games and we see how the table lies.

If you're in the upward form then tough luck, you can't win it all.

 

[UncleBob]

It is force majeure, no result would be satisfactory to every party.

But that's something entirely different from your We do not deserve to be there anyway.

 

[Gasolin]

I believe CAS can suspend the suspension and based on past cases that would seem probable - however in the past I believe this has been done at the initial hearing (basically an overview of evidence and a timescale and then an application to say we believe we have done nothing wrong and the case will prove that so please suspend punishment till final verdict

But will CAS get to sit to have that initial hearing before the deadline for teams being selected for next seasons CL?

My gut feel is city throw enough lawyers at the problem to get a virtual hearing or similar but no guarantees - so id say we still have a shot at automatic cl if the league is ended

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1264472/Man-City-Champions-League-appeal-coronavirus

But that article, albeit written before, seems to say that if there's no hearing, the ban is happening after next season.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/sports/soccer/manchester-city-champions-league-ban.html

Which would be bad new for us...

Oh I see, you're saying the initial has to happen even. OK! Makes sense. Let's hope they never have time.
However, multiple articles in Feb seem to say that it didn't require that initial hearing.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ppeal-uefa-ban-court-of-arbitration-for-sport

The part that I find strange but apparently that's how they do it:

"Cas said in a statement it had registered the appeal by City, which is “directed against the decision of the adjudicatory chamber of the Uefa club financial control body”. Cas said it could give no timescale for the appeal, which requires both sides to submit written arguments and evidence, then a hearing before a panel of three lawyers, who have not yet been appointed.

If the process is concluded by early summer, as City’s chief executive, Ferran Soriano, has said he hopes for, then City will be excluded from the next two seasons’ Champions League competitions if the ban is upheld. If the process is not concluded by the time next season’s Uefa competitions start, City will be clear to play in 2020-21, then if upheld by Cas, the ban will take effect for the following two seasons."

So let's hope your point about the initial hearing is the right one!

 

[Sky1981]

But that's something entirely different from your We do not deserve to be there anyway.

Eh. We have less point than 4th. how in the world do we deserved to be there ahead of Sheffield who has 1 game at hand?

 

[gerdm07]

Sheffield averages about 1.5 points per match so at most they would get that to account for the missed match. Therefore, we are still in 5th with a hope of CL if the ban on City remains.

 

[sun_tzu]

Apologies if already posted but what would the final league table look like if the season was concluded via points per game?

Liverpool ...............2.82
City.........................2.03
Leicester................1.82
Chelsea..................1.65
Man Utd.................1.55
Sheff Utd...............1.53
Wolves...................1.48
Arsenal...................1.43
Spurs......................1.41
Burnley...................1.35
Palace....................1.35
Everton...................1.28
Newcastle..............1.28
Southampton.........1.20
Brighton..................1.17
West Ham...............0.93
Watford...................0.93
Bournemouth..........0.93
Villa.........................0.89
Norwich..................0.72

Assuming clubs level on PPG are separated by goal difference and not head to head or another metric

 

[Gasolin]

Apologies if already posted but what would the final league table look like if the season was concluded via points per game?

More or less the same, very few teams would see a change. Maybe if you had 2 less games and a higher win ratio, you'd go up, or something like that.

 

[UncleBob]

Eh. We have less point than 4th. how in the world do we deserved to be there ahead of Sheffield who has 1 game at hand?

We'd still be 3 points behind 4th, which is pretty much feck all considering there's 27 points left to play for, and we still have to play Sheffield as well, and the point still remains the same, we're almost on level point with 4th, having had a more difficult fixture list up until now..

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Can’t believe people are happy to go with current standings. Makes no sense at all.

 

[sun_tzu]

Can’t believe people are happy to go with current standings. Makes no sense at all.

Whats the alternative? this is the back up IF games cant be played before the end of the season

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Whats the alternative? this is the back up IF games cant be played before the end of the season

Honestly to me it’s clear. You either play out the season or you void it and the results don’t count. I just think it’s a mockery that you base it on the season to stand when there are still so many points yet to get. The best thing about football is that things can change quickly. A couple wins and we would be 4th so current standings mean very very little. It’s sensible to just reset.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Points per game is bogus unless they weigh it by opponent. United for example have much easier run in to finish the season compared to other top 4 rivals.

If it is weighted by opponent, that's good news as United have taken points from Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Leicester.

 

[sun_tzu]

Honestly to me it’s clear. You either play out the season or you void it and the results don’t count. I just think it’s a mockery that you base it on the season to stand when there are still so many points yet to get. The best thing about football is that things can change quickly. A couple wins and we would be 4th so current standings mean very very little. It’s sensible to just reset.

If you void it who qualifies for the CL next year - presumably as the season is Void its the clubs who qualified last season as the CL is also void for this season as well
Are you happy with that

Leicester loose a CL spot to Spurs
Sheffield United loose a Europa spot to Arsenal

And please tell me how you sort out relegation / promotion

 

[cyberman]

Can’t believe people are happy to go with current standings. Makes no sense at all.

Im in the same boat. Ending the season like this makes little sense. Its either void or we play it out.

 

[Snafu17]

It's not easy to arrange a match without being called hypocrite. It's just fecking football ffs. You wanna risk 50 or so players and team officials just so you can brag about who's going to Europe.

Points per game. Or as it is is fine.

If you're on the wrong side of the luck then tough luck.

There's more to life than a petty football match. And we're not talking about 4 - 6 match. If the epl did it the whole championship to division 3 would want one. And all that risk just so that we can go to CL? feck cl. There wont be CL next season anyway. We're 5th. We do not deserve to be there anyway.

With the City ban we might have a better chance to get in CL if we stay in fifth rather than potentially losing in the hypothetical playoffs.

The idea that it is impossible to organise a few football matches a week before an 38 rounds long season is laughable. It's either viable to do that in addition to the 10 matches played out, every weekend, throughout the country, for the next 10 months and or it's not viable to play football at all. A week shouldn't make a difference. If it does then football has returned too soon.

Same applies for every other league. If the league your qualifying for is scheduled to go ahead then there's no reason a playoff round cannot be organised. If it's not, then there's no point doing it at that point.

I fail to see how PPG is the sensible option.

 

[Sky1981]

We'd still be 3 points behind 4th, which is pretty much feck all considering there's 27 points left to play for, and we still have to play Sheffield as well, and the point still remains the same, we're almost on level point with 4th, having had a more difficult fixture list up until now..

Look, I know we're all Manchester United fans. But if you want to argue it's not fair to get 5th because we could have won against Liverpool, city, arsenal, and all that it's clearly a very biased view.

We're 5th for a reason, we're shit for the majority of the season. Could have would have, but I won't cry if they finalized us as 5th.

 

[Sky1981]

With the City ban we might have a better chance to get in CL if we stay in fifth rather than potentially losing in the hypothetical playoffs.

The idea that it is impossible to organise a few football matches a week before an 38 rounds long season is laughable. It's either viable to do that in addition to the 10 matches played out, every weekend, throughout the country, for the next 10 months and or it's not viable to play football at all. A week shouldn't make a difference. If it does then football has returned too soon.

Same applies for every other league. If the league your qualifying for is scheduled to go ahead then there's no reason a playoff round cannot be organised. If it's not, then there's no point doing it at that point.

I fail to see how PPG is the sensible option.

It's doable. But why risk it? Just for the sake of football? football is a non essential thing, it's just pure entertainment. They scrapped Olympics, they even scrapped schooling. Hell they even stopped cancer research, and here you are crying why they can't play football?

For what's it worth, there wont' be CL next season, and proably the season after.

You're kidding if you think comes June everything is all good and new season of football can commence.

 

[sullydnl]

Not relegating team is fine, but it's not fine for the top 2 in the championship. It's like denying them money.

The FA should just announce this season over, used a one method of calcuations for all remaining games (ppg, average pts) and call it that. Point per game should be awarded to the remaining games and we see how the table lies.

If you're in the upward form then tough luck, you can't win it all.

The only solution I can think of for that is to have an extended league next year including the promoted teams, with extra relegation spots to return it back to normal. Though that would be a bit of a nightmare to make work as a) next season could also be disrupted and b) it would presumably require current PL clubs to agree to increased risk of being relegated next year.

Failing that, not getting promotion would suck for those teams but at least they wouldn't be starting next season in an actively worse position, which wouldn't be the case for teams who are relegated.

 

[Sky1981]

The only solution I can think of for that is to have an extended league next year including the promoted teams, with extra relegation spots to return it back to normal. Though that would be a bit of a nightmare to make work as a) next season could also be disrupted and b) it would presumably require current PL clubs to agree to increased risk of being relegated next year.

Failing that, not getting promotion would suck for those teams but at least they wouldn't be starting next season in an actively worse position, which wouldn't be the case for teams who are relegated.

There won't be football next season. Not unless miracles happen.

They need to wrap this season up for legal matter, sponsorship etc.

They're not doing this because Liverpool needs a title or United needs CL. So, it's understandable from FA and Business and to be fair everyone else point of interest to get some clarity on this season and move on hunkering down till Corona's over. Sorry if some parties aren't satisfied, but i see no other way than PPG being applied. It's the fairest system in this condition.

 

[Snafu17]

It's doable. But why risk it? Just for the sake of football? football is a non essential thing, it's just pure entertainment. They scrapped Olympics, they even scrapped schooling. Hell they even stopped cancer research, and here you are crying why they can't play football?

For what's it worth, there wont' be CL next season, and proably the season after.

You're kidding if you think comes June everything is all good and new season of football can commence.

Risking what exactly? If there are conditions in place to start a new season, then there should be the same amount of risk in organising and playing out a few matches a week before the scheduled start. Again, you could even use the playoffs as a stress test.

 

[horsechoker]

Liverpool ...............2.82
City.........................2.03
Leicester................1.82
Chelsea..................1.65
Man Utd.................1.55
Sheff Utd...............1.53
Wolves...................1.48
Arsenal...................1.43
Spurs......................1.41
Burnley...................1.35
Palace....................1.35
Everton...................1.28
Newcastle..............1.28
Southampton.........1.20
Brighton..................1.17
West Ham...............0.93
Watford...................0.93
Bournemouth..........0.93
Villa.........................0.89
Norwich..................0.72

Assuming clubs level on PPG are separated by goal difference and not head to head or another metric

The table barely changes, what's the difference between ending the season now and declaring these positions final and doing it by ppg?

 

[Sky1981]

Risking what exactly? If there are conditions in place to start a new season, then there should be the same amount of risk in organising and playing out a few matches a week before the scheduled start. Again, you could even use the playoffs as a stress test.

Dude, there's 22 sweating people all over contacting one another. You need technical teams on the sideline, you need referees, you need security, you need FA officials, you need groundsman. You need bus driver, you need teams to hungker up and train together, you need police approval, you need a whole lot more than simply 22 man playing football. This is National class competition everything must be recorded for documentation.

And if we play our game, every other team would demand the same, where do you draw the line?

Stop being selfish, it's just a game of football. So what if we're off by a few pts.

 

[sun_tzu]

The table barely changes, what's the difference between ending the season now and declaring these positions final and doing it by ppg?

if city's ban stands I think the main difference will be what they do with the last Europa place
Spurs get it under PPG
Arsenal as things stand
(though as a curve ball they could give it villa as defeted finalists in the league cup?)
Sheffield united would also finish a place higher (and wolves a place lower) presumably having a difference on the place based pay out from the premier league

 

[Snafu17]

Dude, there's 22 sweating people all over contacting one another. You need technical teams on the sideline, you need referees, you need security, you need FA officials, you need groundsman. You need bus driver, you need teams to hungker up and train together, you need police approval, you need a whole lot more than simply 22 man playing football. This is National class competition everything must be recorded for documentation.

And if we play our game, every other team would demand the same, where do you draw the line?

Stop being selfish, it's just a game of football. So what if we're off by a few pts.

You're somehow managing to completely misunderstanding my posts.

At a point, when the appropriate bodies deem football safe enough to return, then there should be no problems in organising a playoff to determine the contentious positions in the league table. This is not United specific and I've explained multiple times that this should only happen if and when it's viable to do so, so I'm not sure why exactly do you insist on calling me selfish.

My point is that there are multiple options that are a better way do determine the final table positions than the PPG is.

 

[Sky1981]

You're somehow managing to completely misunderstanding my posts.

At a point, when the appropriate bodies deem football safe enough to return, then there should be no problems in organising a playoff to determine the contentious positions in the league table. This is not United specific and I've explained multiple times that this should only happen if and when it's viable to do so, so I'm not sure why exactly do you insist on calling me selfish.

My point is that there are multiple options that are a better way do determine the final table positions than the PPG is.

You fail to see that there wont' be football for a foreseeable future, and teams/clubs/lawyers/sponsors/tvdeals/etc can't wait that long in an uncertainty. There are players whose contracts runs out next season, there are players who needs to get their year end bonus, sponsorship needs finalized club positions to determine payoff etc.

so to satisfy your idea about what's fair and what's not fair, you want to make it hell for every party involved.

What's so wrong with PPG? aren't that the cumulative result of a 30 games average?

 

[Greck]

The playoff solution is weird because if we reach the point where games can resume we would likely be trying to resurrect the season making a CL qualification playoff moot

Unless they just want some footy to broadcast over the summer

 

[Greck]

You fail to see that there wont' be football for a foreseeable future, and teams/clubs/lawyers/sponsors/tvdeals/etc can't wait that long in an uncertainty. There are players whose contracts runs out next season, there are players who needs to get their year end bonus, sponsorship needs finalized club positions to determine payoff etc.

so to satisfy your idea about what's fair and what's not fair, you want to make it hell for every party involved.

What's so wrong with PPG? aren't that the cumulative result of a 30 games average?

Yeah fairness is a luxury right now. A team that's 25 points ahead could be getting shafted because that's just how unfortunate the situation is. We'll be lucky to find a solution that's viable, talk less of being fair to everyone

 

[Snafu17]

You fail to see that there wont' be football for a foreseeable future, and teams/clubs/lawyers/sponsors/tvdeals/etc can't wait that long in an uncertainty.

so to satisfy your idea about what's fair and what's not fair, you want to make it hell for every party involved.

If the government decides professional football can be played on the September 1st, and the FA goes "Oh that's great, we will have the playoffs on the 1st of September and we will start the league a week after that!", please explain to me how anyone involved is being put through some ridiculous notion of hell? Where is the difference? Are the 22 men less sweaty a week later? What are you talking about?

What is wrong with PPG is the fact that there are better options available.

 

[noodlehair]

Doesn't make sense. Are they going to relegate teams based on coefficients too?

UEFA can decide qualification for their competitions on whatever criteria they want. In 2005 they changed their rules after the season had ended just to let Liverpool in it despite the fact they hadn't qualified.

If league seasons are abandoned their is no fair way to decide who qualifies. I think that's the point people are missing here. Based on form trajectory through the season, Chelsea would finish in 6th-7th. You can make an argument for United or Wolves ending up 4th. Based on current standings Chelsea are 4th, but Sheffield United have played less games and could logcially be 5th. Based on points per game you have the issue that some teams have very difficult fixtures left and others relatively easy ones.

You can actually make an argument that with European qualification, coefficients are the fairest way to do it, apart from declaring the entire season for all of Europe void and starting over from last August, which is quite daft.

Once you get into the leagues themselves and promotion/relegation, it gets even muddier. Playing the remaining fixtures really is the only viable option if the season isn't going to be voided.

 

[Greck]

If the government decides professional football can be played on the September 1st, and the FA goes "Oh that's great, we will have the playoffs on the 1st of September and we will start the league a week after that!", please explain to me how anyone involved is being put through some ridiculous notion of hell? Where is the difference? Are the 22 men less sweaty a week later? What are you talking about?

What is wrong with PPG is the fact that there are better options available.

What would be a better solution than PPG? And why the strong opposition to it? Wouldn't it place us 5th?

 

[Snafu17]

What would be a better solution than PPG? And why the strong opposition to it? Wouldn't it place us 5th?

Have a playoff. The somewhat (but still less than PPG) dumb thing that English football has been doing for ages in the Championship.

 

[UncleBob]

Look, I know we're all Manchester United fans. But if you want to argue it's not fair to get 5th because we could have won against Liverpool, city, arsenal, and all that it's clearly a very biased view.

We're 5th for a reason, we're shit for the majority of the season. Could have would have, but I won't cry if they finalized us as 5th.

Not entirely sure why you mention Liverpool, City and Arsenal.

Fact is that we're 3 points behind 4th, but we've played better teams than Chelsea and thus we have an easier run in, just as we have an easier run in than Leicester at 3rd. Suggesting we don't deserve more than 5th, because that's where we are now, when we look at the distance between the teams and the remaining matches, is bizarre.

 

[Sky1981]

Have a playoff. The somewhat (but still less than PPG) "unfair" thing that English football has been doing for ages in the Championship.

Do tell me, which teams deserves a playoff.

Go on.

Illustrate how "Playoff" can be done in a week.

You do know that there are numerous teams across English whole division that wants and needs a play off right??? It's not just Manchester United. So City can still mathematically win the league (albeit close to impossible), should they get a play off against Liverpool?

Should Arsenal play wolves?
Should Sheffield play us? How's that fair? That our upward form being and harder fixtures being hinged on 1 playoff in a neutral ground?
There are 6 teams or more that can still technically be relegated, should we play off them?

and that's only EPL, we haven't touched championship.

 

[Sky1981]

Not entirely sure why you mention Liverpool, City and Arsenal.

Fact is that we're 3 points behind 4th, but we've played better teams than Chelsea and thus we have an easier run in, just as we have an easier run in than Leicester at 3rd. Suggesting we don't deserve more than 5th, because that's where we are now, when we look at the distance between the teams and the remaining matches, is bizarre.

Pts is certain, everything else is relative.

You said it yourself. "The FACT is that we're 3pts behind 4th"

The rest is subjective, being a cynic people can say that we actually lost more points against worse team. Where does that ends?

 

[Offside]

I’m sorry but that’s not more ridiculous than point per game are you having a laugh . Let’s just sack off real football and do football manager from now on. It makes an absolutely mockery of competition. At least with a reset we are all in the same position, not some teams being rewarded for part of a job done.

No at least it’s based on this season’s results. Saying “let’s just do football manager from now on” is ridiculous when you know full well this season is an exceptional circumstance. Going off last season is ridiculous when both Spurs and Chelsea are already out. Why not go back to 2002 and reinstate Leeds. They are a past CL team just like Spurs.

In fact given City are banned you’d have to get a 5th team so with your way we’d be going off 5th last season so then what? Arsenal get in? A team who didn’t get too 4 last season and weren’t in the top 4 this season? Don’t tell me that isn’t more ridiculous than points per game.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Let's hope City get bannnnneeeed

1. Scrape this season. No title for Liverpool
2. Use this season points ranking for UEFA competitions next season, We are at 5th place.
3. City get the deserved banned. Appeals rejected.
4. We get to CL competition as 4th team from England.
5. We signed Sancho too.

 

[Snafu17]

Do tell me, which teams deserves a playoff.

Go on.

Illustrate how "Playoff" can be done in a week.

You do know that there are numerous teams across English whole division that wants and needs a play off right??? It's not just Manchester United. So City can still mathematically win the league (albeit close to impossible), should they get a play off against Liverpool?

Should Arsenal play wolves?
Should Sheffield play us? How's that fair? That our upward form being and harder fixtures being hinged on 1 playoff in a neutral ground?
There are 6 teams or more that can still technically be relegated, should we play off them?

All decisions would be arbitrary. There's no avoiding that. There will be a cut off point. It will not be fair, there is no perfect solution. But anything you put out is still a lot better than finishing the season halfway through, applying PPG and pretending there's some sort of sporting integrity in that. It's like you'd build a house and then decide you won't put up a roof because the premium roofing that you want is not available anymore. Sure it's a bit shit if you have to put up a shit roof but at least you won't get wet when there's rain.

You do max 4 teams on each end of the table. You do semi-finals and finals. You do it on one neutral location, probably Wembley. It's an arbitrary number of teams and you arbitrarily decide who get's in, but at least there's something that's decided and finished on the actual pitch.

 

[UncleBob]

Pts is certain, everything else is relative.

You said it yourself. "The FACT is that we're 3pts behind 4th"

The rest is subjective, being a cynic people can say that we actually lost more points against worse team. Where does that ends?

You seem like less of a cynic and more of an emo...Given the fixture list and clear difference in opposition quality that the various teams have played to get where they are now, it's bizarre to suggest that 75% of the season is a fair reflection of 100% of the season and that we don't deserve better than 5th.