UEFA: abandoned leagues go on points per game or current position.

[SalfordRed18]

The only good thing that would come out of PPG is that there'd be a lovely asterisk next to the league champions for the rest of time.

Other than that it's a mockery.

 

[Gator Nate]

The season could still be played out playing Wednesdays and weekends starting the last weekend of May, which is still a whole month away. They need to up the testing for the virus (have it) and for the antibodies (had it) and I think you will find that it will be safe to finish up. You might have players missing a few games recovering on the chance they get it, just like injuries in the thick of December. Most people that get this thing don't even know it, most of the rest do not require hospitalization, and most of those recover within two weeks, and a lot of that is directly proportional to how healthy the patient otherwise is. This can be done.

But that's just my opinion, based on reading a lot about what's going on.

 

[Sky1981]

You seem like less of a cynic and more of an emo...Given the fixture list and clear difference in opposition quality that the various teams have played to get where they are now, it's bizarre to suggest that 75% of the season is a fair reflection of 100% of the season and that we don't deserve better than 5th.

Based on the 75% we don't. It's also not fair to neglect the 75% and based the finishing line on what could have been in the remaining 25%

Do I think we can finish better? Considering our upward trajectory, Bruno, and we seems to do better against top teams then yes, I think we can do better. But it's not a given, and such I can accept that we can't always have it all.

All decisions would be arbitrary. There's no avoiding that. There will be a cut off point. It will not be fair, there is no perfect solution. But anything you put out is still a lot better than finishing the season halfway through, applying PPG and pretending there's some sort of sporting integrity in that. It's like you'd build a house and then decide you won't put up a roof because the premium roofing that you want is not available anymore. Sure it's a bit shit if you have to put up a shit roof but at least you won't get wet when there's rain.

You do max 4 teams on each end of the table. You do semi-finals and finals. You do it on one neutral location, probably Wembley. It's an arbitrary number of teams and you arbitrarily decide who get's in, but at least there's something that's decided and finished on the actual pitch.

Wait? So City/Chelsea/Leicester each is 2 games away from winning the league? You call that fair? And playing at Wembley is not fair. 38 games is a home and away affair, half the team already had their away game and forgoing their home game in favor of a neutral venue is not fair.

So you see, your suggestion is much more not fair.

 

[UncleBob]

Based on the 75% we don't. It's also not fair to neglect the 75% and based the finishing line on what could have been in the remaining 25%

Do I think we can finish better? Considering our upward trajectory, Bruno, and we seems to do better against top teams then yes, I think we can do better. But it's not a given, and such I can accept that we can't always have it all.




Wait? So City/Chelsea/Leicester each is 2 games away from winning the league? You call that fair? And playing at Wembley is not fair. 38 games is a home and away affair, half the team already had their away game and forgoing their home game in favor of a neutral venue is not fair.

So you see, your suggestion is much more not fair.

It's 3 points, the difference between do and don't is minimal at best.

And this isn't about accepting that we can't always have it all, it's about your comments about what is deserved. I fail to see why Chelsea deserve 4th on the basis of having played much easier fixtures.

 

[rcoobc]

There is only one answer to this mess.


Storytime!

 

[Snafu17]

Based on the 75% we don't. It's also not fair to neglect the 75% and based the finishing line on what could have been in the remaining 25%

Do I think we can finish better? Considering our upward trajectory, Bruno, and we seems to do better against top teams then yes, I think we can do better. But it's not a given, and such I can accept that we can't always have it all.




Wait? So City/Chelsea/Leicester each is 2 games away from winning the league? You call that fair? And playing at Wembley is not fair. 38 games is a home and away affair, half the team already had their away game and forgoing their home game in favor of a neutral venue is not fair.

So you see, your suggestion is much more not fair.

I'm clearly talking about the CL places, it's like you haven't been following our argument.

Of course it's not fair. I've literally said so in my previous post. The point is, it's not as unfair for feck sake. If I offered you a pat on the back, a slap on the wrist and a kick in the balls an hour ago and then subsequently retracted the pat on the back for dragging me into this dumb conversation, you'd presumably pick the kick in the balls because the idea of picking the least awful option, when the best one is not available, is apparently unimaginable to you.

 

[Smores]

Still think voiding is the only fair outcome, no gains no losses (mostly).

The way our season has gone we could have finished 4th or 8th so determining PPG or final position based on happenstance of the current gameweek is very unfair in both directions.

Obviously with a united bias it'd be nice to keep the possibility 5th brings with City's situation but It'd feel very cheap over Sheff Utd (feck the rest).

 

[Brightonian]

PPG is nonsense. A game against Liverpool and a game against Norwich are not equivalent. That's why every team plays every other team twice.

For 'fairness', there is only one solution: you wait until you can play football games again, however long that may be, and then you finish this season before you start the next.

 

[Acole9]

This. Don’t sacrifice two seasons.

Absolutely, the Dutch league has been spot on with how they've done it. Finished the season based on ranking, no champions and no relegation. All other leagues should do the same.

 

[Member 113277]

PPG is nonsense. A game against Liverpool and a game against Norwich are not equivalent. That's why every team plays every other team twice.

For 'fairness', there is only one solution: you wait until you can play football games again, however long that may be, and then you finish this season before you start the next.

Yes, I agree; whether fairness will survive pragmatism, I'm unsure.

Also, as much as I don't like Liverpool as a club, nor their fans, this coach and this particular team deserve to complete their fixtures and win the league properly. They've played consistently well and generally in a sporting way and they deserve it - surely supporters of a world class/sized team don't have to be petty in denying this?

I also look forward to our up and coming team giving them a spanking in the future and taking the trophy back to Old Trafford.

 

[Offside]

Still think voiding is the only fair outcome, no gains no losses (mostly).

The way our season has gone we could have finished 4th or 8th so determining PPG or final position based on happenstance of the current gameweek is very unfair in both directions.

Obviously with a united bias it'd be nice to keep the possibility 5th brings with City's situation but It'd feel very cheap over Sheff Utd (feck the rest).

Sheffield United would likely have fallen away I feel. It would be very good for them to go straight into the Europa League from this.

 

[tenpoless]

Other than banning ManCity from UCL which They should have done years ago.

Have UEFA ever done anything right?

 

[Brightonian]

Also, as much as I don't like Liverpool as a club, nor their fans, this coach and this particular team deserve to complete their fixtures and win the league properly. They've played consistently well and generally in a sporting way and they deserve it - surely supporters of a world class/sized team don't have to be petty in denying this?

I also look forward to our up and coming team giving them a spanking in the future and taking the trophy back to Old Trafford.

Thoroughly agree with this. I hate them as much as the next self-respecting United fan but I don't want them to be denied this win on a technicality. I want them to be denied any more, ever, because we get back to the top and never give them another look in.

It doesn't feel a million miles off, either - their players reputations are all sky high at the moment based on what they've just achieved, but form fluctuates so much more than on-paper quality. If we add Sancho and maybe a couple of other reinforcements, and more importantly if we keep playing with the cohesion and sense of purpose that we have over the last 11 or so games, I don't see anything between the two sides. Like most very successful teams they've got where they have this season by winning those tricky games, getting those last minute goals, earning themselves a bit of rub of the green. They're by no means some kind of unbeatable 2009 Barcelona.

 

[Member 113277]

Thoroughly agree with this. I hate them as much as the next self-respecting United fan but I don't want them to be denied this win on a technicality. I want them to be denied any more, ever, because we get back to the top and never give them another look in.

It doesn't feel a million miles off, either - their players reputations are all sky high at the moment based on what they've just achieved, but form fluctuates so much more than on-paper quality. If we add Sancho and maybe a couple of other reinforcements, and more importantly if we keep playing with the cohesion and sense of purpose that we have over the last 11 or so games, I don't see anything between the two sides. Like most very successful teams they've got where they have this season by winning those tricky games, getting those last minute goals, earning themselves a bit of rub of the green. They're by no means some kind of unbeatable 2009 Barcelona.

Agreed, we are building the core of a good team and a class RW, a DM and possibly another midfielder would be us formidable. The coming into form of Fred and the acquisition of Bruno have made this team look different, as has the renewed form of Matic - we have stopped being leaky since he came back.

Now the team needs to learn how to be consistent. Ole has doen a very good job in managing HR :-)

 

[Tomuś]

Everything's on stage for us to get royally screwed, that is Liverpool winning the title and ppg meaning nothing to us as City's ban being suspended. A part of me almost wants to laugh at us but then I remember I won't be laughing when we play FC Arsch Cullen from Switzerland in EL come September.

 

[Sky1981]

I'm clearly talking about the CL places, it's like you haven't been following our argument.

Of course it's not fair. I've literally said so in my previous post. The point is, it's not as unfair for feck sake. If I offered you a pat on the back, a slap on the wrist and a kick in the balls an hour ago and then subsequently retracted the pat on the back for dragging me into this dumb conversation, you'd presumably pick the kick in the balls because the idea of picking the least awful option, when the best one is not available, is apparently unimaginable to you.

Which part of the no football is safe for the foreseable future you cant understand?

 

[Snafu17]

Which part of the no football is safe for the foreseable future you cant understand?

The one where I've specifically stated, multiple times, that this should be only implemented when football is safe to play.

 

[SER19]

Returning to the CL next year isn't that important to us now. We're not going to be making big signings anyway and being in it when we're out of our depth isn't useful anyway.

Just hoping to continue the momentum we'd been building and have a really strong league season.

 

[TheReligion]

Returning to the CL next year isn't that important to us now. We're not going to be making big signings anyway and being in it when we're out of our depth isn't useful anyway.

Just hoping to continue the momentum we'd been building and have a really strong league season.

Don't think we'd be out of our depth at all. Also think transfers will happen just not for mega money.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Returning to the CL next year isn't that important to us now. We're not going to be making big signings anyway and being in it when we're out of our depth isn't useful anyway.

Just hoping to continue the momentum we'd been building and have a really strong league season.

why would Utd be out of our depth. The top 7 or 8 in the PL would represent themselves well in the CL compared to many other teams.

 

[Offside]

Everything's on stage for us to get royally screwed, that is Liverpool winning the title and ppg meaning nothing to us as City's ban being suspended. A part of me almost wants to laugh at us but then I remember I won't be laughing when we play FC Arsch Cullen from Switzerland in EL come September.

They won’t award a Premier League title on PPG no matter how many points clear they are. It’s a totally different to allowing teams into the CL. Agree about City’s ban and I would’ve fancied us to catch Chelsea.

 

[Anustart89]

Still think voiding is the only fair outcome, no gains no losses (mostly).

The way our season has gone we could have finished 4th or 8th so determining PPG or final position based on happenstance of the current gameweek is very unfair in both directions.

Obviously with a united bias it'd be nice to keep the possibility 5th brings with City's situation but It'd feel very cheap over Sheff Utd (feck the rest).

We have a better PPG than Sheffield United, so we'd finish above them anyway.

45/29 = 1.552
43/28 = 1.536

 

[Moiraine]

They won’t award a Premier League title on PPG no matter how many points clear they are. It’s a totally different to allowing teams into the CL. Agree about City’s ban and I would’ve fancied us to catch Chelsea.

Even Leicester

 

[glazed]

Thoroughly agree with this. I hate them as much as the next self-respecting United fan but I don't want them to be denied this win on a technicality.

I do. Not because I hate them but because it would be so funny. We all need a laugh in these dark times.

 

[macheda14]

There is still the possibility of them trying to finish the CL and EL over a two week period in one off knock out games. We could still ensure our place in the CL next season by winning that. However I do think that format could be really unfair as it’s looking like some leagues will be playing behind closed doors and others won’t. Some teams will have match fitness, others won’t.

 

[Sky1981]

The one where I've specifically stated, multiple times, that this should be only implemented when football is safe to play.

To which it's not feasible, because multiple parties needs confirmation and closing soon, they can't wait in uncertainty.

Stop being selfish, it's only football

 

[cyril C]

Absolutely, the Dutch league has been spot on with how they've done it. Finished the season based on ranking, no champions and no relegation. All other leagues should do the same.

You can't really do that if some clubs have 10 games on hand, others have 9?

Beside, the Dutch decision is not about finishing, it is about selecting who to represent Holland next season at European level.

Bear in mind that no leagues can project who will be the league champion UNLESS you actually finish it, like what Bundesliga is trying to do. If you end the season prematurely, Liverpool gets a plastic Cup for memory sake.

The only outstanding decision, which individual League needs to decide, and UEFA to approve, is who will represent EPL on CL and Europa, and whether there will be relegation / promotion.

Dutch picks the representative base on current standing, no relegation (hence no promotion from Div B).

I saw a table on EPL base on average points per game which project MU on 5th. So it might be Xmas after all to some of you:- Liverpool no Champ, Leeds stay put, City get punished, MU plays in CL next season....

 

[Greck]

You can't really do that if some clubs have 10 games on hand, others have 9?

Beside, the Dutch decision is not about finishing, it is about selecting who to represent Holland next season at European level.

Bear in mind that no leagues can project who will be the league champion UNLESS you actually finish it, like what Bundesliga is trying to do. If you end the season prematurely, Liverpool gets a plastic Cup for memory sake.

The only outstanding decision, which individual League needs to decide, and UEFA to approve, is who will represent EPL on CL and Europa, and whether there will be relegation / promotion.

Dutch picks the representative base on current standing, no relegation (hence no promotion from Div B).

I saw a table on EPL base on average points per game which project MU on 5th. So it might be Xmas after all to some of you:- Liverpool no Champ, Leeds stay put, City get punished, MU plays in CL next season....

City isn't getting punished until the CAS upholds the ban. There's still an appeal process being litigated. Too many are getting carried away and pinning their hopes in the city ban basket

If we want CL the best chance will be UEFA using coefficient to decide who gets CL qualification in the ongoing Europa cup

 

[Snafu17]

To which it's not feasible, because multiple parties needs confirmation and closing soon, they can't wait in uncertainty.

Stop being selfish, it's only football

The idea that this "uncertainty" will cause more issues than finishing the season in a way that opens up the league to a bunch of legal issues (like we're seeing in the Netherlands right now) is bizarre.

feck me, we are just running in circles here. This is the third completely unrelated argument you managed to bring out during the course of this conversation, all the while either misreading or just ignoring pretty much all of my refutes. I've lost track on how many times you changed your stance on why PPG is the best idea. The only consistent thing is you did throughout this discussion is baselessly accusing me of selfishness, despite me explaining, that this not only does not effect just United but it also might affect the club in a negative way, multiple times.

This is the dumbest conversation I've ever been a part of, since I've joined the Caf. If I spent the time, I spent answering your increasingly sillier posts, banging my head against a concrete wall instead, I would've been more productive.

 

[Sky1981]

The idea that this "uncertainty" will cause more issues than finishing the season in a way that opens up the league to a bunch of legal issues (like we're seeing in the Netherlands right now) is bizarre.

feck me, we are just running in circles here. This is the third completely unrelated argument you managed to bring out during the course of this conversation, all the while either misreading or just ignoring pretty much all of my refutes. I've lost track on how many times you changed your stance on why PPG is the best idea. The only consistent thing is you did throughout this discussion is baselessly accusing me of selfishness, despite me explaining, that this not only does not effect just United but it also might affect the club in a negative way, multiple times.

This is the dumbest conversation I've ever been a part of, since I've joined the Caf. If I spent the time, I spent answering your increasingly sillier posts, banging my head against a concrete wall instead, I would've been more productive.

Yup. It's hard to tell people to stay at home. It really does.

They want their football back.

Because who cares about NHS and other people safety, what's important is to finish up our game of football because god forbid we missed out on our good form.


For the Nth time : PPG is much better than forcing hundreds of people playing football for the sake of it. And I've stated that fecking playoffs to decide the winner of the league in a neutral venue when Liverpool is 20+ points ahead of 2nd place is stupid idea. You brag about ppg isn't fair, and this is your idea of fair???

All decisions would be arbitrary. There's no avoiding that. There will be a cut off point. It will not be fair, there is no perfect solution. But anything you put out is still a lot better than finishing the season halfway through, applying PPG and pretending there's some sort of sporting integrity in that. It's like you'd build a house and then decide you won't put up a roof because the premium roofing that you want is not available anymore. Sure it's a bit shit if you have to put up a shit roof but at least you won't get wet when there's rain.

You do max 4 teams on each end of the table. You do semi-finals and finals. You do it on one neutral location, probably Wembley. It's an arbitrary number of teams and you arbitrarily decide who get's in, but at least there's something that's decided and finished on the actual pitch.

Yeah, Right.

 

[Snafu17]

Yup. It's hard to tell people to stay at home. It really does.

They want their football back.

Because who cares about NHS and other people safety, what's important is to finish up our game of football because god forbid we missed out on our good form.


For the Nth time : PPG is much better than forcing hundreds of people playing football for the sake of it. And I've stated that fecking playoffs to decide the winner of the league in a neutral venue when Liverpool is 20+ points ahead of 2nd place is stupid idea.

Yeah there you go, we're back in the same spot we were two posts ago. You said a playoff for the winner is dumb, I agreed and said there should only be playoffs for the actually contentious positions ie CL and relegation spots. I've explained football should only be played when it's safe to do so, you're going on about the NHS and posting a Seah fecking Hannity for some reason. Here we are, repeating this annoying conversation for the umpteenth time.

This is very dumb.

 

[Sky1981]

Yeah there you go, we're back in the same spot we were two posts ago. You said a playoff for the winner is dumb, I agreed and said there should only be playoffs for the actually contentious positions ie CL and relegation spots. I've explained football should only be played when it's safe to do so, you're going on about the NHS and posting a Seah fecking Hannity for some reason. Here we are, repeating this annoying conversation for the umpteenth time.

This is very dumb.

Yup. I'm done.

 

[Snafu17]

Yup. I'm done.

You can't be, we've only managed to go in a circle for about twenty million different times!

 

[cyril C]

City isn't getting punished until the CAS upholds the ban. There's still an appeal process being litigated. Too many are getting carried away and pinning their hopes in the city ban basket

If we want CL the best chance will be UEFA using coefficient to decide who gets CL qualification in the ongoing Europa cup

Do you think UEFA going through all the Hoo Ha, will eventually drop the charge? The best that City can hope for, is a reduction on sentence to 1 season. That they are given more time to repair their income statement under the excuse of Pandemic.

I raised the Income issue, because City (was charged) with substituting their corporate sponsorship / naming right with Dady's money of 60m. I will assume City needs to rectify this in no time - Get a new Corporate sponsorship - dreaming, Ask Ethiad to 4 times their sponsorship - another dream.

If they can't find the revenue, they need to cut their cost....

 

[Acole9]

You can't really do that if some clubs have 10 games on hand, others have 9?

Beside, the Dutch decision is not about finishing, it is about selecting who to represent Holland next season at European level.

Bear in mind that no leagues can project who will be the league champion UNLESS you actually finish it, like what Bundesliga is trying to do. If you end the season prematurely, Liverpool gets a plastic Cup for memory sake.

The only outstanding decision, which individual League needs to decide, and UEFA to approve, is who will represent EPL on CL and Europa, and whether there will be relegation / promotion.

Dutch picks the representative base on current standing, no relegation (hence no promotion from Div B).

I saw a table on EPL base on average points per game which project MU on 5th. So it might be Xmas after all to some of you:- Liverpool no Champ, Leeds stay put, City get punished, MU plays in CL next season....

I don't really think that matters at this moment in time. Average points per game is too much of a faff, what if a team was to have a dip in form.

Rather than over complicate it and risk wasting vital testing resources I think the season should be null and void, no promotion, no relegation and no champion. Current placed teams go into Europe for next season. The obsession with finishing this season is just pressure from the tv companies. It makes no sense potentially mucking up next season too.

 

[Baneofthegame]

If they are going to do PPG it should be measured with averaged points x strength of schedule.

 

[Sky1981]

If they are going to do PPG it should be measured with averaged points x strength of schedule.

Great, how do you quantify "strenght of schedule?" Who is stronger? Manchester United or Leicester?

You can argue about that till the cows come home

 

[duffer]

Great, how do you quantify "strenght of schedule?" Who is stronger? Manchester United or Leicester?

You can argue about that till the cows come home

It does seem like a bit of mental gymnastics to come up with something where the result is "Man United get into the Champs League".

 

[Greck]

Do you think UEFA going through all the Hoo Ha, will eventually drop the charge? The best that City can hope for, is a reduction on sentence to 1 season. That they are given more time to repair their income statement under the excuse of Pandemic.

I raised the Income issue, because City (was charged) with substituting their corporate sponsorship / naming right with Dady's money of 60m. I will assume City needs to rectify this in no time - Get a new Corporate sponsorship - dreaming, Ask Ethiad to 4 times their sponsorship - another dream.

If they can't find the revenue, they need to cut their cost....

It's not about dropping the charge. The CAS might uphold the ban, likely will in fact, that's irrelevant at the moment. When an appeal is filed against a decision it's often accompanied with a motion to stay the execution of the decision till the final determination of the appeal. The motion is often granted and the ban suspended till the appeal body's final decision is reached. It exists to preserve the right. Why you ask? So that on the off chance the arbitration body or court overturns the decision, the punished party isn't halfway into suffering an overturned punishment

TL;Dr the ban isn't alive if the appeal is alive

There's a surprisingly good explanation from goal in this article. If the CAS can hear and uphold Uefa's decision between now and CL registration we're in the CL

 

[SportingCP96]

The only positive of leagues being considered null is Liverpool being denied the title and going on 31 years without a league win.