If he leaves then we'll need 3 CM. We can't compete on all fronts with Mainoo, 2 CMs and Collyer.
Ugarte appears to be out the door this summer
- Thread starter Raoul
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Replacing Casemiro as a first-choice starter is a tough task for the recruitment team.
Replacing Ugarte as a squad option is not a tough task for the recruitment team.
Fair points but there’s no point replacing Ugarte with a player of a similar level as we may as well just keep him them.
There is Collyer but I haven’t seen anything that suggests he will be close to good enough to step up.
Well he should be based on Berrada’s 2 year performance policy
He’s a bit of a nothing player isn’t he? Not Donny Van De Beek levels, but not a million miles off.
Ugarte feels closer to a liability than an asset when on the pitch.
I'm sure the recruitment team shouldn't find it that hard to replace him with a player who helps the team more.
Agreed. 2 at a minimum, but 3 if Ugarte goes. I like the idea of working Collyer into the rotation as well.
I dont rate Ugarte at all. Really worried about our depth though, with Europe back on the menu.
He contributes nothing at the moment so there is zero to replace
Collyer is also on the sell list apparently. I think if he leaves, we get 3 mids unless someone like a Kone steps up.
Who said we should replace him with a similar level player? The point is that replacing him with a better player shouldn’t be a hard task. Pretty much every PL team has better midfielders than him and many of them really didn’t cost that much.
We can live with just Mainoo and Casemiro simply because we have 1 game a week. That changes radically next season when we're playing in Europe, in the FA cup, in the Carling cup and in the EPL. Next season we'll need every body we can get and unless we want to run players to the ground then we would need bodies up there to give the first team a breather. Also note that Mainoo is not a DM. That means that if Ugarte goes then all we'll have is 1 DM who will have to play week in week out, game in game out. That would destroy anyone. And spare me the thought of Collyer. Its an option on paper but things are very different in reality. No manager would risk 3 points on a kid whose yet to show the goods even at Championship level.
When United signed Ugarte they probably thought that they were signing a capable player who wouldn't mind the bench every now and then but who will constantly compete for a first team place. A bit like what Nicky Butt, Ander Herrera and Fred did previously. I doubt that our DOF thought "Talent wise this guy make Robbie Savage look like prime Maradona. Let's spend 50m on him"
If (and its a big if) we manage to sell him then we'll be looking for someone of that ilk ie someone who sits between being a squad player and a first teamer. I can think of a couple of names who fits the bill like Joao Gomes, Anton Stach or Sander Berge.
Weren't we linked with Sander Berge? The consensus at the time was he wasn't good enough. Now that looks a bit silly.
Someone like Ugarte made sense since we needed someone who does the legwork on Casemiro's and Mainoo's behalf. In some ways he did (his interception rate and workrate are off the charts). Unfortunately he lacks the judgement of knowing when to chase the ball and seem to be losing the ball soon after regaining it thus causing more chaos within United's ranks then within the opponent's ranks. The guy had deteriorated on that regard so much that even Amorim who had previously managed him in Portugal is said to have confronted him about it.
Things will be very different next summer. We're losing Casemiro and we might lose Bruno as well. That would strip CM of all experience. Without Casemiro we'll be losing an aerial threat which will be made worse if Maguire leaves and De Ligt's career keep being plagued with injuries. We also seem obsessed with Baleba whose young and need a calming presence around him. Berge provides all that. He's 6ft5 EPL proven experienced CM whose deceivingly fast for a player of his size. He can play in every role in CM, he is comfortable with the ball and he shouldn't cost too much.
Problem with Ugarte, is that do you feel comfortable when he starts? When he replaced Casemiro? In fact, when he plays any minute?
Whether he feel comfortable to be backup player is a secondary question, main question is that not everyone feel comfortable when he plays. If someone can fix his problem by next August, then I have no problem with him as our #2 CMF next season, starting 20 games a season perhaps and coming on as sub another 30. There are plenty of game time next season, whether we need 2x DMF on a particular game, replace the tired #6, or coming on at 80th min to kill the game.
Yeah I would definitely try and sign Berge this summer if we can. Not a world beater but would exactly offer the kind of reliable depth we've been missing out on over the years.
No, no and no.
He's not going to improve that much by the start of next season. Him starting 20 games a season will make those 20 games nail-biters.
He's already shown that when coming on in the 80th minute, rather than kill the game he gives extra impetus to the opposition.
Wouter Burger is 3 years younger, would probably cost the same or less, and is near enough a doppelgänger of Berge, not just in name.
Collyer’s looked more useful to me than Ugarte when he’s played. Whenever I’ve seen him play he’s been more positionally disciplined, more secure in possession, covers the ground better, and better in the air. He’s obviously not the answer to our midfield issues, but as a fringe back up player I’d rather have him in the squad than Ugarte.
And yet he's not managed to get a starting role for either West Brom or Hull this season in the Championship...
So he was apparently only signed as a sweetener for the Yoro deal, according to Mitten
Interesting given they came from different clubs.
Same agent
Well yeah, he’s had injuries during both spells. It can be challenging for short term loan players to play their way into a starting line up at the best of times, but it’s even harder when you’re injured. I don’t think Ugarte would have started for them much in such circumstances either.
Anyway, you seem to have dropped a key part of what said when quoting me:
As poor as Ugarte has been for us, Collyer is just not at his level. Ugarte is obviously a limited player, but this is mostly confidence related. He was one of the highest rated midfielders in Portugal and France on stats websites - not that it means he was the best, but those ratings don't come randomly.
I don’t really care about stats in other leagues for other teams - Ugarte has looked particularly ill suited to the league we play in.
I don't disagree, but I think that largely comes down to lack of confidence, no consistent playing time, utilising him wrong, et cetera. A combination of more than one factor. Obviously he isn't without blame, he is a limited player but it can't be easy for him. I'm sure he'll do well elsewhere, but in general as a football player, he is just better.
There’s some merit to the lack of confidence etc, but there are other fundamental issues at play too. His stand out attributes in the other leagues - his tenacity and ability to cover ground - become so diluted in the more physical and faster paced PL that he just becomes a nothing player, whilst his lack of ability on the ball in such an environment turns him into an actual liability. I can’t see any of those things improving to a significant enough degree that he’s worth persevering with.
I dont think we have the personnel to make best use of his limited talents. I think that might be a problem independent of him but it feels like his time has passed and even if we got the right midfield partner for him it wouldn't work out. Maybe getting martinez back in the team opens the door back up to a workhorse.
This year. It probably goes up to 140k or 150k next year if we make UCL. He'll be unsellable on those wages, unless he wants a paycut for more playing time. That amount would make him one of the highest paid players on a team like Villa, Newcastle, Dortmund, or AC Milan. They don't want him, and the smaller clubs can't afford him.
Players like Ugarte and Mount have the additional hurdle that they were bought for a high fee that's still being amortized. So even if we wanted to give him away, we couldn't do so because the PSR loss would be too big.
The fee + wages makes it really likely Ugarte is with us next season.
I think both should be on the way out. Ugarte had failed at United and he should be sold while Collyer should be loaned or sold. The real question should be whether we prefer to loan Ugarte and hope he pick form elsewhere thus attracting a better fee or if we keep him. Cause I can't see anyone ready to fork a decent fee for him especially since he's already on a big salary. If that's the only choice we've got then I'd rather keep him for another year
A- We have a horrible reputation in terms of outs. The message out there is that its possible for club to just pop in, take our 'undesirables' on loan for a trial run and if they are lucky we can even be persuaded to pay some of the player's salary as well. We need to start putting our foot down on the matter
B- If Ugarte is kept then we can loan Collyer, the Fletchers etc. One year of week in week out football could do wonders for a younger player
He's good at covering ground and ball recovery, the issue start when he's recovered the said ball.
Extremely limited passing range and propensity to just turn towards the CB's each and every time to pass it safe.
Extremely limited passing range and propensity to just turn towards the CB's each and every time to pass it safe.
Looks much better in the Uruguay side tonight than he does for us.
It’s nothing like the intensity of a premier league game though, so not entirely surprising.
Did he?
I thought he was the same. Awful
Definitely wasn’t awful, I thought they controlled the midfield although he should have been sent off due to his 2 yellow cards.
I thought he looked his usual crappy self and if not for one of the most incompetant refs I've ever seen he would have managed to get sent off in a friendly.
Mind boggling to even read that
