He looked comparably casual for Uruguay as he does for us. Every appearance feels like a training session.
Ugarte appears to be out the door this summer
- Thread starter Raoul
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In the latest edition of the United Hour Podcast, we interview Duncan Drasdo of MUST - covering ticket prices, new stadium, INEOS and what fans should be demanding from our club.
Also, due to technical issues we couldn't put a notice up for the previous episode which was about the game against Bournemouth and other stuff. If you'd like to listen to it, click here.
If his exit skills are anything like his passing then he should miss the door opening by around 3 feet.
A destroyer
The reality is that besides a short period with RVN, none of the managers seem to have had an appetite to play him.
Carrick hardly plays him. Amorim - wasn't a fan despite the shared experiences, and ETH also seemed reluctant to start him.
Carrick hardly plays him. Amorim - wasn't a fan despite the shared experiences, and ETH also seemed reluctant to start him.
If he goes I expect we will replace him with one of the CMs from one of the relegated clubs I.e. Andre.
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Interesting point about the stats sheet. Stats can trick us just as much as the eye test can trick us. Do you recall which stats had MU — a shame his initials didn’t live up to the expectations of Manchester United — so highly regarded on paper?
It was fotmob, but I think whoscored has him pretty far up too. I haven't checked the others. He's not a bad player, just a limited one and should absolutely not be the one expected to progress the ball from defense or link the midfield and attack. Not really benefitting from playing 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there and so on, reckon he's the type that needs to build momentum to play at his best.
Oh you're paying attention to stats websites now are you?!...
Napoli gave us a decent fee for Hojlund, but you just know Juve will offer a 2 year loan for 5 million.
When have I not? It's just that you use them in isolation to judge a player's quality, which is utterly ridiculous. You literally just said Tonali wasn't good at driving with the ball because some stat website said so.
And using stats from the Portuguese league is helpful in assessing a current PL player’s level how? Does anyone really care how Ugarte did for Sporting years ago when we can see with our own eyes how bad he has been for us in the league we play in?
With us paying 100% of his salary.
When did I do that? I said he was one of the highest rated midfielders in those leagues on statistic websites and those ratings don't come out of nothing. My only point was that he is better than Collyer, which he is. I never mentioned that he was playing good or that he is the answer to our midfield issues, so not sure why you think I'm assessing his performances in PL.
And my point is those stats are completely irrelevant. What’s the point in posting them?
Oh boy, more loans.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to get at here. Are you actually in here trying to debate that Collyer is better than Ugarte?
The whole point is obviously to show that Ugarte has at least done well elsewhere in other leagues. You don't need to succeed in Premier League to be labelled a decent football player.
I see ratings but I don't see underlying stats that tell us what Ugarte was so great at when we so desperate to sign him.
As for what to do with Ugarte I think I'm in the minority here but unless someone comes in with a huge fee offer I think we should keep him. As you say, he's not a bad player...just limited. Perhaps he would like to start for top four club in France or Spain and not be a squad man at United, but I can't imagine even Marseilles or Lyon being interested in him at anything but a near-free transfer and reduced wages. So if we can't pawn him off to another club I actually think he do a decent job for us as deep cover in midfield. He's bit of a ball-winner and he can make a 5 yard pass but that's about it. But sometimes that's all you need if your back line is solid, the front line is solid and you've simply trying to hold onto a two goal lead in the last ten minutes of a match.
Ah, I misunderstood then.
I don't really have much insight into why they're given the ratings that they are, but a quick look shows that he made most successful tackles in the league out of all the players, despite only starting 21 of those games. That's ridiculous, and I can imagine that contributes partly to the rating. Other than that, I suspect his passing accuracy has something to do with it (it was 91% if I remember correctly) as well as his long ball passes (and accuracy, surprisingly 78%). Basically the top dog in nearly every defensive metric.
What I remember at the time was that Ugarte had a reputation as a fantastic ball-winning midfielder. Never dirty, just really brave and direct in the tackle and found the five yard pass quickly. But in terms of other attributes such as carrying the ball forward, spinning out of trouble or making an accurate long pass, that was never a big part of his resume that at least I recall at the time. Assuming we good reasonably deep in all four competitions next season I see a role for such a player. But I also see the wisdom of cutting our losses is we can find a buyer for him and thus make room for Collyer (squad man, we still need to buy polished gem midfielders), who I think has decent potential.
I think Collyer would be a more useful squad player for us if he could stay fit, yes. I’ve previously stated the reasons why. Ugarte’s barely trusted with twenty minutes as a sub.
Ugarte a decent football player? Not in the PL he isn’t, which is the only thing that matters to us. Sancho did numbers in the BL but that meant nothing here.
Hmmmmmmmmm.........
Again, so you're cool quoting a form of aggregated stats as if it vaguely means something, even when you admit you don't understand it; and yet when I show you detailed stats, with insights as to what they are and what they mean, you think they're somehow not worth consideration...
Absolutely farcical.
it's the correct decision to sell. His career at United never took off. I would even rate his time with us dissapointing.
He was highly rated as a ball-winner. The stats websites did not have him rated well as a passer, at least when he was at PSG. And that (lack of passing ability) obviously carried over to United too.
Yeah, I'd say disappointment is an understatement. We're going to be lucky if we can sell him. With the UCL pay bump (knock on wood) next year, he's probably up at around £140k-150k a week in wages. I don't think there's any way Juve or Napoli wants to pay that. Rasmus and McT were sellable precisely because they were on cheap (<£100k a week) wages.
I think it's more likely Ugarte gets loaned until he can prove something more. Either that, or a sale where United has to subsidize the fee with a payoff. There's just too big a mismatch with his wage and the value he's showing on the field.
Don't be so petty. You know there is a clear difference between being one of the highest rated midfielders over the course of a season and choosing a specific statistic on a website that states that he may not be as good as we're discussing here, without knowing his role in the squad, what his freedom is like in the team, manager's desires and so on. We know that Bruno Guimaraes is the one with the freedom to roam forward, because he's better offensively, so obviously that plays a part in Tonali not being allowed to drive forward as much as he would like.
I don't need to understand how stat websites form their ratings on a player over the course of a season to know that he was in fact one of the best midfielders in the league at that time. Can you explain to me how a statistic website's ratings of a player over a season "doesn't mean something", but when you use statistics from those same sources, they mean everything? The hilarious bit here is that you genuinely believe you're providing insight as to what stats are and what they mean, when you don't - at all. In fact, you were sat down by another poster here a while ago that actually explained what they were, and you didn't even know it yourself, despite desperate attempts to explain to others (me included) what they were. I can't be bothered to scroll through pages of posts of yours, but you know what I'm talking about.
You should quit acting like you have grand knowledge of these stats, when it is clear you don't. I know you have an interest in them, but if you had huge knowledge in talent recognition, scouting or football analysing, you wouldn't be on a fan forum fighting with different posters telling them why they're wrong, and you're right. You're like a person bragging about his sales skills, and then it turns out he works at Lidl.
United already need two central midfielders, even if Ugarte remains. Selling him means buying three midfielders this summer, which would be quite the overhaul. I agree that Ugarte is not really good enough, but I'm not sure that the club will want quite that amount of churn.
Yes, so he was highly rated in at least some aspects of the game, unlike Collyer. Which is kind of the point.
Are you sure about the bolded bit? 89th percentile for successful passes, 95th percentile for accuracy with a 91.5% accuracy, 81th percentile for successful long passes and 89th percentile for long pass accuracy with a 78% accuracy. For general passing, this is about as good as it gets for a midfielder, so not sure how this is not considered well by you. If you're talking about progressive passing or chance creation through passing, that's another matter.
How much can we recoup for Ugarte do you reckon? 15mil?
And for Onana 10mil?
Rashford? 26 mil?
+the wages (incl. Sancho's)
should give us money for one of the three players we need this summer (CM, CM, LB/LW)
And for Onana 10mil?
Rashford? 26 mil?
+the wages (incl. Sancho's)
should give us money for one of the three players we need this summer (CM, CM, LB/LW)
Yeah he can go. Hopefully this will finally be the summer we address central midfield once and for all. We need 3 central midfielders at a bare minimum. Spend whatever is required to get the best available.
I never said the statistic website's ratings of a player don't mean something - I was pointing out that it seemed silly that you attached so much importance to them, while disregarding as insignificant the underlying stats (plural) which drive why those ratings are what they are.
But anyway, seeing as you hold Fotmob's player ratings in fairly high esteem, let's go back to a comment of yours which kicked off this most recent back and forth:
Look at where Tonali is relative to Xhaka, Tielemans, Garner and Gravenberch this season...
Checkmate.
We know for sure two are coming in. One to replace Casemiro and additional midfield that we will need as we will be in more competitions.
Ugarte depends on Utd getting the right offer. As they said on TOTD, Utd will not subsidise wages, so it would have to be a permanent move. Also he's on 130k a week or something like that which could be a problem for the team in Spain and Italy who would be interested in him.
I'd expect Ugarte replacement if it happened to be the last signing of the summer, as you would need whomever it was to be able to play with Mainoo but also our two new midfielders, for argument sake. Let's say that's Baleba and Anderson.
Then you would expect Utd would look at it from the viewpoint of what are we still missing from our midfield that mainoo-baleba-anderson provide. Or maybe they would go down the route of trying to get lewis-skelly from Arsenal and kill two birds with one stone. Someone who can play midfield and also left back. From left back providing that versatility that O'Reilly provides for city, with his ability to come inside and play in midfield during a game. As seem to becoming the vogue with some fullbacks now.
A bag of crisps for Onana. We are not getting a fee for him. He will stink out the place, and be loaned out until his contract expires.
The big savings are wages. Rashford, Casimero, Sancho. We should get a decent fee for Rasmus, and his wages off the books as well.
Ugarte hardly plays. His minutes can be replaced by academy/ Colliyer.
I think he has a market, and whilst we will clearly take a hit on his fee, I think we can get £15m for him.
Fair enough, maybe they've been better this season, doesn't mean I think all of them are better players or better suited to the league or for our needs. Xhaka in particular has Noah Sadiki doing the running for two midfielders so he can focus on dictating, but certainly not ideal for us, and that's not even factoring his age. The thing with Garner is that he has shown a good level one season in his career, and he's 25, being one of the star players for Everton. Who knows if he could handle the pressure coming back to us, or if he's just a one-season wonder? I wouldn't even be opposed to Garner, I reckon he would be a great midfield signing, but I suspect he comes with a risk. Gravenberch ahead of Casemiro/Caicedo/Zubimendi is bizarre. No idea how he is so far up.Checkmate.
Your boy Joao Gomes not far behind Mateus Fernandes/Alex Scott is an interesting one given that he would barely move the needle from Ugarte.
He was a Caf wet dream when he was based in Portugal.
I agree with this. Unless we get a really good offer. I'm assuming we already have third midfielder options lined up if we do. I'm not sure how much that would be - maybe £30m? £25m perhaps. I know these are unlikely offers. What's worth the extra upheaval is difficult to assess. £20m might just be worth holding off til next summer. Everyone wants to gets rid of all deadwood, but too many changes can make us perform worse next season.
That isn't entirely the point - I think a lot of the point being discussed was that for United to progress as a team you need the best players in their respective positions, and there are still a lot of CMs who overall contribute more than Tonali one way or another. In order to maintain your league position ahead of mid-table teams like Sunderland and Everton you need players better than theirs, and ones as close to the level of the title contenders as possible.
This isn't true though - in 23/24, Garner started 34 games for Everton with a Fotmob rating of 7.15 (still notably ahead of Tonali's). The main problem he had was that he missed over 3 months of the 24/25 season with the reoccurrence of a back injury that had also kept him out for 3 months in 22/23. The reoccurring back injury as much as anything probably made potential buyers wary. More than anything though I wouldn't push to sign him because it'd be silly to pay 70mil+ for someone the club already sold so cheap.
Well there was a big clue in one of those charts I posted that you completely ignored/dismissed...
his defensive stats are pretty top drawer.His ball progression data looks solid as well.
Casemiro would probably be a bit higher up the ratings charts were it not for Amorim's horrible spell early in the season.
Ugarte would probably do better if he was playing week-in week-out in that Wolves side.
Joao Gomes still has a lot of the same flaws and limitations which Ugarte has - he is prone to chasing after the ball, he is not so good at defending the penalty box, he gives away a disproportionate number of fouls. He is a bit more comfortable on the ball than Ugarte, but more so at carrying; which isn't ideal for a deep-lying midfielder who you want to hold position a bit more. His passing still doesn't seem what you want from a United CM. Plus he's one of the few midfielders in the last couple of seasons who I'd paid attention to who didn't seem to manage to stand-out at all against Amorim's midfield.
It's also a bit more than "not far behind" - Joao Gomes is further behind Mateus Fernandes, than Fernandes is behind Casemiro. Mateus Fernandes is only 21 as well! A really promising prospect.
I have never really talked about Alex Scott.
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Exactly, it was progressive passing he scored poorly on IIRC. The reputation was he played it ultra safe and wouldn't be able to progress the ball easily. I'd say progressive passing is much more important than accuracy.
Absolutely. There were red flags. A midfielder with that many limitations, and that struggles with passing/in possession will never be good enough for where we want to be. A squad player at his best, sure, but he seems to be at his worst if he doesn't get consistent/enough play time, so we may as well get rid in the summer.
We will probably need twice that amount on book value for FFP rules and will most likely need to loan out for the season, saving his wages at least..