United’s Scouts

[Wallez]

Our scouts are doing their job, but the problem is that it is increasingly difficult to find hidden gems. If a 17 year old scores a hattrick in the top division in Brazil, everybody knows it the day afterwards due to media and social media. In addition, all players with professional contracts seem to be valued at 100 mill pounds once a big club becomes interested in them. That leaves the possibility of finding "hidden gems" in the age group 14-17, which has been shown to be shady business that could lead to transfer bans.

I would rather want us to put more work into scout more established players before we sign them. Everybody can see that players like Sancho and Hudson-Odoi are talented footballers, but more work should be put into determining their mentalities. Do they train hard? How serious are they? Which treatment do they need to succeed at the highest level? How will they fit into our dressing room atmosphere? Out of a 100 equally talented players in the age group 18-21, only a couple will become world class footballers, and I think this is all about mentality. You have to be good at the age of 18 to make it at the highest level, but your mentality will take you to the top.

A more thorough work should also be done with more established players. If we had done this, players like Alexis Sanchez and Di Maria would never have signed for Manchester United as they never had the hunger and intent to succeed here. Van Persie and Zlatan on the other hand came in with a clear intent to succeed and win trophies, and so they did.

 

[Infra-red]

Player recruitment has been a disaster for most of the last decade. I suppose you'd have to ask the man with ultimate responsibility for improving it, why he has failed to improve it. Woodward doesn't often do interviews, though.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

I believe it was one/multiple of our former managers who said the scouting structure itself was fine, it's at the top-level (i.e. Woody and co) where the problems lie.

 

[Catt]

Why are they not scouting anybody, when was the last time United found a hidden gem. What do they actually do?

Do you think they are sitting on their arse not doing anything?

 

[SAred]

Do you think they are sitting on their arse not doing anything?

Don't know with the vast amount of scouts and very little results maybe they are

 

[Sky1981]

So it seems United would rather cough up 50 million for a Fred then finding the next De Jong, seems odd.

Nope. But united are willing to pay for a 25 years old fred rather than buying a 16 years old de jong and play him in our first team for 8 years until he become the jong we see now, if he actually made it.

 

[D4X73r]

Nope. But united are willing to pay for a 25 years old fred rather than buying a 16 years old de jong and play him in our first team for 8 years until he become the jong we see now, if he actually made it.

This. We are a big club and not a stepstone. We do scout within the academics but that's it. We can't give 16 year olds the needed game time to develope. Especially not if you play below your expectations season after season

 

[Gordon S]

It's not easy these days. Most top talents are known by every single top club in europe now. If there is a 16yo gem in Toulouse, Bayern, Juventus, Chelsea, Ajax, PSG and more clubs will have scouts watching him closely.
And most of the top talents would rather go to Barcelona or Real if they could.

And it's not easy to nurture these young talents right either, they need competitive playing time, lots of it, and they need to be able to make mistakes without getting crucified as well. Thats not easy to do if you're a big club fighting for titles every year. Some clubs try to by a big bunch of talented youngsters for peanuts then loan them all out in hope that one or two becomes a top player. A strategy wich rarely seems to work out.

You need a good portion of luck to find a gem like Kante'

 

[devilish]

You realize that it's BS. There is a reason why both are still at Ajax today and will only move this summer and it's not because they weren't spotted.

The difference is that we tend to spend more on potential then the average club does. I remember when united signed Ronaldo there were 4-5 clubs who were interested in him yet no one was interested to match our 12m fee. I remember the Italian media saying that we were crazy to spend such huge money for a thin kid who dribbled himself to the corner flag. Same thing happened with Ando and later on martial

I think that after Langley left we opted not to do that anymore. Which explains why we went for Mourinho that same year.

 

[Eric's Seagull]

With 39 scouts based across the world I would have thought we would be unearthing some gems. https://academymanutd.com/staff/

 

[Suedesi]

Work permits.

How does Southampton bypass this?

 

[JPRouve]

We always paid top money for kids something many clubs were reluctant at. I remember when united signed Ronaldo there were 4-5 clubs who were interested in him yet no one was interested to match our 12m fee. They thought we were crazy to spend such huge money for a thin kid who dribbled himself to the corner flag. Same thing happened with ando and later on martial

I don't see the point that you are making, the issue isn't money. Ajax was the best option for them because they were guaranteed game time and would be part of a structure dedicated to young players and post-formation.

 

[JPRouve]

How does Southampton bypass this?

When have Southampton bypassed it, they don't really sign players from outside the EU?

 

[Suedesi]

When have Southampton bypassed it, they don't really sign players from outside the EU?

My point - we shouldn’t be looking only at SA ‘gems’ who are difficult to get (hard adaptation, work permit etc) AND are likely to view Barça/ Madrid as the pinnacle anyways. We should be looking at European players (French, Dutch, British) who won’t likely come with the same issues.

 

[devilish]

I don't see the point that you are making, the issue isn't money. Ajax was the best option for them because they were guaranteed game time and would be part of a structure dedicated to young players and post-formation.

I think that De Ligt and De Jong were in similar circumstances to young Rooney and young Ronaldo were when we signed them up. Ajax would probably have allowed them to leave if their valuation was met same as Everton and Sporting did. Unfortunately by that time SAF was gone and the people in command seem more focused for instant success then on buying pure potential.

 

[Sky1981]

One more thing is that these kids often has agents. They had the rights i assume since early days. And they also have deals with portugal clubs based on agreements that they'll be given time to shine, sold without much fuzz asuming the price is right and the agents get the cut. I read that somewhere i might be wrong but it's believeable logically.

Going abroas isnt cheap, passport ticket lodging and those kids are being sponsored by someone waiting for them to ripe.

It may not be obvious in european countries but it isnt so far fetched in some poorer countries.

 

[JPRouve]

My point - we shouldn’t be looking only at SA ‘gems’ who are difficult to get (hard adaptation, work permit etc) AND are likely to view Barça/ Madrid as the pinnacle anyways. We should be looking at European players (French, Dutch, British) who won’t likely come with the same issues.

French and Dutch young players for the most part won't join us when they can sign for Ajax, PSV, Lyon, Monaco, Lille and other clubs like that because they are guaranteed to play. They know that if they sign for these clubs in 2018, they are not going to see the likes of Wan Bissaka purchased in 2019 or the likes of Young playing week in week out, these clubs will play them because it's part of their long term plans to develop and sell them.
We are talking about clubs that are very good when it comes to develop players, mainly because it's a matter of survival for them, they are entirely built around that, you just have to look at the type of managers that these clubs have. United is in a totally different category, it's a club that is at the top of the food chain, it's not in the business of gems but players that can and will contribute immediately.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Our scouts are doing their job, but the problem is that it is increasingly difficult to find hidden gems. If a 17 year old scores a hattrick in the top division in Brazil, everybody knows it the day afterwards due to media and social media. In addition, all players with professional contracts seem to be valued at 100 mill pounds once a big club becomes interested in them. That leaves the possibility of finding "hidden gems" in the age group 14-17, which has been shown to be shady business that could lead to transfer bans.

I would rather want us to put more work into scout more established players before we sign them. Everybody can see that players like Sancho and Hudson-Odoi are talented footballers, but more work should be put into determining their mentalities. Do they train hard? How serious are they? Which treatment do they need to succeed at the highest level? How will they fit into our dressing room atmosphere? Out of a 100 equally talented players in the age group 18-21, only a couple will become world class footballers, and I think this is all about mentality. You have to be good at the age of 18 to make it at the highest level, but your mentality will take you to the top.

A more thorough work should also be done with more established players. If we had done this, players like Alexis Sanchez and Di Maria would never have signed for Manchester United as they never had the hunger and intent to succeed here. Van Persie and Zlatan on the other hand came in with a clear intent to succeed and win trophies, and so they did.

No such thing as a hidden gem the way social media has exploded.

Every two bob whether he's got ability or not is being feted around clubs by scouts. They are now moving into the role of agents and cutting out the middle men

 

[Member 93275]

I think that De Ligt and De Jong were in similar circumstances to young Rooney and young Ronaldo were when we signed them up. Ajax would probably have allowed them to leave if their valuation was met same as Everton and Sporting did. Unfortunately by that time SAF was gone and the people in command seem more focused for instant success then on buying pure potential.

The trick is to get them when turning 16, when they can sign their first contract. See Chong. This is what many PL clubs do. Give a bit of money, give a job to the parents, etc. Not that it have been working, you can't tell yet it they will make it, they are usually not developed because not playing, and finally loaned out and forgotten (hi TFM). There were offers for De Ligt and De Jong last year (according to the media Barca offered 50m for De Jong), but that doesn't work anymore. Ajax has over 200m in the bank, and figures next year these kind of players will be worth even more (you win some, you lose some, but on average they are right).

So the current status is simply that clubs like Barca and United can get them when these players are ready for a move and the price is right for Ajax. A couple of million more or less won't matter to Ajax (e.g. De Ligt wants to go to Barca, so the price won't be driven up), but the idea that you can get them on the cheap past 16 is no longer reality.

 

[devilish]

The trick is to get them when turning 16, when they can sign their first contract. See Chong. This is what many PL clubs do. Give a bit of money, give a job to the parents, etc. Not that it have been working, you can't tell yet it they will make it, they are usually not developed because not playing, and finally loaned out and forgotten (hi TFM). There were offers for De Ligt and De Jong last year (according to the media Barca offered 50m for De Jong), but that doesn't work anymore. Ajax has over 200m in the bank, and figures next year these kind of players will be worth even more (you win some, you lose some, but on average they are right).

So the current status is simply that clubs like Barca and United can get them when these players are ready for a move and the price is right for Ajax. A couple of million more or less won't matter to Ajax (e.g. De Ligt wants to go to Barca, so the price won't be driven up), but the idea that you can get them on the cheap past 16 is no longer reality.

I think if we signed De Ligt or De Jong then we would have had to pay a decent fee for, in similar lines we did for Ronaldo. Now I do criticise United for sometimes going full skint mode however even I admit that we used to be huge risk takers in terms of potential. Ronaldo, Ando, Nani, Martial and Jones are a clear testament to that (one could also add Bale and Ramsay to the list if only they joined us)

That trend seemed to change once Mou came (Ok Langley left a month before Mou signed but we all know that Woody had talks with Mou for months). In fact, apart from Dalot (which happened during a transfer window in which Mou went full rebellion mode about), Mou always seem to have gone for older thus safer bets.

 

[Ekeke]

The scouts may have found lots of gems, but its up to the manager and higher ups to act on it

 

[Charles Miller]

The OP is hardly controversial imo. Why not to sign Arthur for $30 millions from Gremio instead of Fred for $45/50 from Shakhtar? Porto payed $7 millions for Eder Militao a very good CB.

 

[JPRouve]

The OP is hardly controversial imo. Why not to sign Arthur for $30 millions from Gremio instead of Fred for $45/50 from Shakhtar? Porto payed $7 millions for Eder Militao a very good CB.

Why would Arthur pick United over Barcelona in 2018? And for Militao, I'm pretty sure that a work permit wasn't guaranteed.

 

[Pughnichi]

It’s not so much the hidden gems that frustrate me. It’s the obvious ones that we wait around on for too long. Take Tielemans for example. Captain of Anderlecht at 18. A hugely talented central midfielder. Transfer to Monaco for 23m (which is feasible)....1 yr later and his fee is likely to be 50m if not more.

We tend to get linked to a lot of players who 1,2 seasons earlier we could have bought for half the price. It’s madness

 

[JPRouve]

It’s not so much the hidden gems that frustrate me. It’s the obvious ones that we wait around on for too long. Take Tielemans for example. Captain of Anderlecht at 18. A hugely talented central midfielder. Transfer to Monaco for 23m (which is feasible)....1 yr later and his fee is likely to be 50m if not more.

We tend to get linked to a lot of players who 1,2 seasons earlier we could have bought for half the price. It’s madness

Tielemans is a great example, he has been bad for Monaco.

 

[JohnnyKills]

De Jong wasn't hidden, he was a known quantity who put his development above everything else which is why he chose Ajax. These clubs guarantee two things, they are used to take care of young players and they have game time to give.

Yeah I bet half of Europe was after De Jong and De Ligt. They'll have been on the radar from 14-15 years old.

We've actually signed Atletico's former chief scout, so I guess the plan is to start unearthing our own gems and finding bargains (rightly so).
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerardo-guzmán-vico-5b2636116/?originalSubdomain=es

 

[united13]

Why are they not scouting anybody, when was the last time United found a hidden gem. What do they actually do?

Derek Langley, ex head of youth recruitment at UTD actually recommended to Ed Woodward that they go after Frenkie de Jong and Maathijs de Ligt - this was ignored.

Let's be honest, they probably are scouting and recommending players - however these scout reports etc. are just being ignored. Woodward would rather go after players based on their commercial value as opposed to their playing ability.

This article is worth a read https://talksport.com/football/4593...-frenkie-de-jong-matthis-de-ligt-ed-woodward/

 

[Member 93275]

Yeah I bet half of Europe was after De Jong and De Ligt. They'll have been on the radar from 14-15 years old.

You have never known or have already forgotten the ten others for each talent that made it, with similar assessments at that age, who didn't make it. Hindsight is easy. And two years, ago, Frenkie still played in the second Dutch league for the Ajax youth team. The same age as De Ligt is now, who has over 100 games for Ajax, is the captain, played 15 times for the Dutch team, and a Europa League final. That Frenkie made the step wasn't a given at that point, he had the same problem as Nouri. Super talents, and in Frenkie's case with exceptional spatial awareness for everyone to see, but would they make the step? They were romantics and small and that's not always compatible with realistic football played by grown ups. Ajax had others like that who didn't make it.

 

[Pughnichi]

Tielemans is a great example, he has been bad for Monaco.

Henry was bad for Monaco

Did you judge Ole on his 6 months at Cardiff as well

 

[ash_86]

Forgot Dalot already?

 

[JPRouve]

Henry was bad for Monaco

Did you judge Ole on his 6 months at Cardiff as well

Tielemans joined Monaco in 2017 and you used Tielemans as an example of player that United should have bought. Tielemans wasn't even ready for Monaco, he has been bad for 17 of the 18 months that he spent at Monaco.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I’d imagine the vast network of scouts are looking more at kids than established players. Trying to find the next Messi to get them in at bargain prices.

Yeah any idiot could find players for our first team. Signing players for our youth team is where scouts have the most value.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Our scouts would look infinitely more competent if only we had the beneficial advantage that Madrid and Barcelona share in terms of recruitment from South America. Unfortunately, we are at a distinct disadvantage competing with Spanish clubs for the services of young talent from South America. Such as it is, when Madrid unearth a Vinicius, or Barça an Arthur, we inevitably miss out and our scouts look poor for reasons beyond their control.

 

[JPRouve]

Our scouts would look infinitely more competent if only we had the beneficial advantage that Madrid and Barcelona share in terms of recruitment from South America. Unfortunately, we are at a distinct disadvantage competing with Spanish clubs for the services of young talent from South America. Such as it is, when Madrid unearth a Vinicius, or Barça an Arthur, we inevitably miss out and our scouts look poor for reasons beyond their control.

Arthur wasn't exactly underground, we are talking about a Copa Libertadores winner and starter for Gremio, Vinicius was brazil wonderboy at 16. Which only adds to your point.

 

[simplyared]

Who are these hidden gems?

Well we can start off with Alexander Isak, 19 yrs old playing for Willem II in the Dutch league. Out on loan from Burussia Dortmund.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Well we can start off with Alexander Isak, 19 yrs old playing for Willem II in the Dutch league. Out on loan from Burussia Dortmund.

He chose Dortmund over Real so he was not exactly unknown and we do not know if he is ready to play for a top club yet.

 

[NoPace]

It’s not so much the hidden gems that frustrate me. It’s the obvious ones that we wait around on for too long. Take Tielemans for example. Captain of Anderlecht at 18. A hugely talented central midfielder. Transfer to Monaco for 23m (which is feasible)....1 yr later and his fee is likely to be 50m if not more.

We tend to get linked to a lot of players who 1,2 seasons earlier we could have bought for half the price. It’s madness

Yeah, it's the in-between stuff that's hurt us.

Take a guy like Skriniar, who we or another big club might spend 80M for. It's completely understandable that we didn't sign him from Slovakia like Sampdoria did, but then he had a great year and Inter bought him for 20 and he was immediately ready to improve their defense.

We need to be correctly identifying guys at the time Inter did, after they've had a strong year for lower quality sides in big leagues or the bigger teams in lower quality leagues.

For example, we need a right back to start for 2-3 years until Dalot or maybe Laird can hopefully win the job. Ligue 1 has a few guys who seem like they might fit, and would be affordable. Atal might be a star, is only 22 and offensively driven like Dalot and would cost a lot, but there's also guys like Sarr, Lala, Aguilar and Guilbert who seem to be having strong seasons and would let us spend the big money on Sancho, the CB and the 2 midfielders we need, but while one of them is probably good enough to do the job, it's irrational to think United have the ability to figure out who that is.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

We can do with some gems

 

[soaphroniscuss]

We miss too many high mid-ranking non-superstar level players too. Bernado Silva (43mil) and Fabinho (39mil) are two notable recent ones.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Why are they not scouting anybody, when was the last time United found a hidden gem. What do they actually do?

same can be applied to all PL clubs no?