United’s Scouts

limerickcitykid

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Sorry you are a bit confused here. Do you need scouts to tell you to buy a 100m player? Or a 70m? or a 50m?

You need scouts to identify a 16-20 player costing probably around 10-20m, and we get rip off for a bit paying 20-30m. Veron, Berbatov and Ferdinard for that matter, didn't fit into this category.

Only Rafael twins, Hernandez, fit into the scouting territory. OK if you add Tosic, Bebe, Obertan, Djouf - who was the guy from Celtic, and another from Championship, who hardly had a game?

Park was already an established player, same for Zaha, Depay, Darmian, Blind, Rojo. Scouts might tip you off but there are enough opportunity for the managers to see for himself.
You’re the confused one.

You need scouts to compile reports on every player. Scouts aren’t exclusively for 16-20 year olds no one has heard of.

There isn’t enough opportunity for the manager to see. Ole doesn’t have time to watch every match across Europe. He’s got his own team to run. Exactly why you have scouts to compile reports for you.
 

DomesticTadpole

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You’re the confused one.

You need scouts to compile reports on every player. Scouts aren’t exclusively for 16-20 year olds no one has heard of.
Exactly, they will still watch the top players, but also try to find the up and coming players, they will also look into the character of the players.
 

Eplel

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We have 1 scout, Ed Woodward.

He scouts for sponsorships when he's not too busy ducking up our transfer deals.
 

Annihilate Now!

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Bump. Its the same issue every year. Why are we not able to scout for good squad players for the positions that we need? Where are the Evra, Vidic, Ji-Sung Park, Chicarito, Smalling type of signings? We either try for established top players (with top fees) or rely on youth. The middle ground is missing and it shows with the lack of our squad depth. When we do make such signings, like Dalot or James, it always seems to have a link to the manager's sources and a one-off.

We seem to have worked on our academy and the results are flowing. Our player recruitment strategy and scouting needs to be next up for reform IMO.
Both of those are youngsters too so wouldnt be expected to make an impact right away (the fact that James did at first was a bonus more then anything)

I think the last two mid-20s signings for not that much money (relatively) that we hope to make that step up with us were Lindelof and Bailly - both centre backs... before that it was probably Blind & Herrera?

As you say though, Fergie used to make these kind of signings all the time... so don't know why we seem to only target obvious players now. These days we're certainly more like to just try and sign Maguire from Leicester for 90m instead of picking him up from Hull.
 

CG1010

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Both of those are youngsters too so wouldnt be expected to make an impact right away (the fact that James did at first was a bonus more then anything)

I think the last two mid-20s signings for not that much money (relatively) that we hope to make that step up with us were Lindelof and Bailly - both centre backs... before that it was probably Blind & Herrera?

As you say though, Fergie used to make these kind of signings all the time... so don't know why we seem to only target obvious players now. These days we're certainly more like to just try and sign Maguire from Leicester for 90m instead of picking him up from Hull.
Even not Herrera. He would be part of signings like Nani, Anderson, etc., which went for quite some money. But unless we start signing those players, we would be forever short of squad options. Its now amply clear that we don't have an unlimited budget like the club likes to believe.
 

Foxbatt

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It's not the hidden young gems that's the only issue. We are not buying the Evras the Vidics, the Nanis either. These were established players who took the next step up.
I don't think Ole would have bought Pogba if he was the manager.
I think United needs to ramp up the scouting. Pay good money for the chief scout. Make an ex player who was technically good as the chief scout.
 

JJ12

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Scouts are being listened to when signing the likes of Mejbri and the norwegian fella we just signed for academy at least, shame we couldn’t get Cherki over the line.
 

Adnan

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Scouts are being listened to when signing the likes of Mejbri and the norwegian fella we just signed for academy at least, shame we couldn’t get Cherki over the line.
That's because the youth team department is independent from the first team one. The likes of Nicky Butt and Cox are working as one team and are on the same page along with the scouts and have a transfer budget allocated just for them to buy the best youth players from around the world.

Neil Wood and Neil Ryan are coaching the teams whilst the scouts and head of football development is providing them with the talent. That is the setup that needs to be replicated at first team level IMO. But I fear Woodward is too stubborn at this stage and won't want to replicate similar at first team level because he probably feels he wants to prove people wrong and show everyone that he can get it right. A Sporting director would probably highlight the clubs naivety post SAF.
 

Inigo Montoya

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That's because the youth team department is independent from the first team one. The likes of Nicky Butt and Cox are working as one team and are on the same page along with the scouts and have a transfer budget allocated just for them to buy the best youth players from around the world.

Neil Wood and Neil Ryan are coaching the teams whilst the scouts and head of football development is providing them with the talent. That is the setup that needs to be replicated at first team level IMO. But I fear Woodward is too stubborn at this stage and won't want to replicate similar at first team level because he probably feels he wants to prove people wrong and show everyone that he can get it right. A Sporting director would probably highlight the clubs naivety post SAF.
You know that or more conjecture? :smirk:

Isn't it easier to believe that the guy's simply incompetent?
 

Adnan

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You know that or more conjecture? :smirk:

Isn't it easier to believe that the guy's simply incompetent?
That's speculation on my part. I don't think he's incompetent at all but rather someone with a bruised ego who is hellbent on proving everyone wrong.
 

cyril C

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You’re the confused one.

You need scouts to compile reports on every player. Scouts aren’t exclusively for 16-20 year olds no one has heard of.

There isn’t enough opportunity for the manager to see. Ole doesn’t have time to watch every match across Europe. He’s got his own team to run. Exactly why you have scouts to compile reports for you.
For a potential 100m target, would you ask your part time scouts to file a report, or you would only trust your right hand man, or senior scouts to do the report?
 

Adnan

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For a potential 100m target, would you ask your part time scouts to file a report, or you would only trust your right hand man, or senior scouts to do the report?
The report would already be filed..
 

cyril C

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The report would already be filed..
What I wanted to say is, that you have half a hundred scouts outside, may be add a few dozen more part-time scouts, who would file you a report any time. If the prospect is a 13-16 years old, by a scout with a proven record, you would probably have act upon it.

But for a 50m+ target, even with a report already filed, won't you want to see a 2nd opinion (report)? So you send your most trusted senior staff, or just another part-time scouts, to file in another report?

Back to those 18-20 young prospect. How many prospect have we seen - Dalot? James?

I accept some may simply be not good enough, we just need some success instead of total failure, which seems to be our recent history.
 

Adnan

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What I wanted to say is, that you have half a hundred scouts outside, may be add a few dozen more part-time scouts, who would file you a report any time. If the prospect is a 13-16 years old, by a scout with a proven record, you would probably have act upon it.

But for a 50m+ target, even with a report already filed, won't you want to see a 2nd opinion (report)? So you send your most trusted senior staff, or just another part-time scouts, to file in another report?

Back to those 18-20 young prospect. How many prospect have we seen - Dalot? James?

I accept some may simply be not good enough, we just need some success instead of total failure, which seems to be our recent history.
I get what you mean and the way the recruitment process is currently it doesn't make much sense with the amount of scouts we have, especially at first team level.

But the only way we can maximise the ability/judgment of our scouts is if we have the same recruitment structure we have at youth level, through-out the club.
 

sparx99

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It’s not just scouting the right players. It’s having the right environment for them to come into and be a success.

Daley Blind and Memphis Depay should probably still be at the club as should Wilfred Zaha. These guys should have been better managed and could have contributed a lot more than they did.

In recent years and certainly post Fergie it’s clear that the turnover of managers has led to a muddled philosophy and so good signings have ended up as flops. It’s why so many of us want a DOF.

Zaha and Nick Powell would have been big successes had Fergie stayed longer.
James Wilson is another who should have a been a first team player with us but got ruined by the manager shuffle.
 

Inigo Montoya

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For a potential 100m target, would you ask your part time scouts to file a report, or you would only trust your right hand man, or senior scouts to do the report?
Depends on who's better qualified and experienced to assess players.

Better still, just come on here. There seems to be a plethora of experts!
 

Annihilate Now!

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So just to recap, this summer our magnificent first-team scouts identified the following... am I missing anyone?

Jadon Sancho - England International right winger who's played for Dortmund. What a find.

Edison Cavani - 33 year old international footballer with over 300 appearances for a tiny club called PSG

Donny Van De Beak - Very promising player who I imagine everyone at this point has seen play for Ajax in their Champions League runs (and who may well have basically offered to us by Van Der Sar)

Sergio Reguilon - Literally just played against us for Sevilla... also was being shopped out by Madrid, so how much our scouts can take credit for here I'm not sure.

Ousmane Dembele - Another gem uncovered here...The worlds 6th most expensive footballer.... who again it looks like is being shopped out by Barca.

Alex Telles - Porto left back, fair enough this might have required some googling.

Again, what do our scouts do exactly? Who cares... Raises all around.
 

spiriticon

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The scouting team is abysmal and seem fixated on the Portuguese league.
 

Rozay

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So just to recap, this summer our magnificent first-team scouts identified the following... am I missing anyone?

Jadon Sancho - England International right winger who's played for Dortmund. What a find.

Edison Cavani - 33 year old international footballer with over 300 appearances for a tiny club called PSG

Donny Van De Beak - Very promising player who I imagine everyone at this point has seen play for Ajax in their Champions League runs (and who may well have basically offered to us by Van Der Sar)

Sergio Reguilon - Literally just played against us for Sevilla... also was being shopped out by Madrid, so how much our scots can take credit for here I'm not sure.

Ousmane Dembele - The worlds 6th most expensive footballer.... who again it looks like is being shopped out by Barca.

Alex Telles - Porto left back, fair enough this might have required some googling.

Again, what do our scouts do exactly? Who cares... Raises all around.
So you measure the competence of the club by signing players you have never heard of?

How about:

‘Facuno Pellistri - Peñarol winger. Must admit, I’ve never seen him play, and contradicts my Bs list anyway so ignore him’.

‘Amad Traore - Atalanta winger. See above.’

Not to mention Benoit Badiashile.

So if your list proves that we have shit scouts, which top clubs, through their business, has demonstrated that they have great scouts recently by signing football’s best kept secrets?
 

Annihilate Now!

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So you measure the competence of the club by signing players you have never heard of?

How about:

‘Facuno Pellistri - Peñarol winger. Must admit, I’ve never seen him play, and contradicts my Bs list anyway so ignore him’.

‘Amad Traore - Atalanta winger. See above.’
See "First-Team"
 

Annihilate Now!

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Pellistri is a first team footballer. As is Badiashile. You had just run out of things to moan about, so spun some sort of wheel and landed on this.
He's 18.... with 30 appearances in the Uruguayan Premier League he won't be doing much with the first team bar an odd sub appearance here and there.

Badiashile I'd give you if there were heavy reports we were strongly in for him. CB is actually the only area we seem to do any scouting anyway.

But please, go on about all these top finds our first-team scouts have made.
 

Rozay

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He's 18.... he won't be doing much with the first time bar an odd appearance here and there.

Badiashile i'd give you if there were heavy reports we were strongly in for him. CB is actually the only area we seem to do any scouting anyway.
And Sancho is 20. He has been playing senior football for a year. He won’t be joining our U23s.

Badiashile was the subject of a bid from us.

And the players you have never heard of are either likely to be young or not good enough anyway. The ones who are good enough you have dismissed as ‘too obvious’ for your liking for some weird reason.
 

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And Sancho is 20. He has been playing senior football for a year. He won’t be joining our U23s.

Badiashile was the subject of a bid from us.

And the players you have never heard of are either likely to be young or not good enough anyway. The ones who are good enough you have dismissed as ‘too obvious’ for your liking for some weird reason.
Yes 'cos that's exactly the same thing. Well done.

Got any reputable sources for that bid?

And that last sentence is clearly not true as we've made plenty of those types of signings in the past - which is basically what this entire thread is about. Who - apart from Telles, which I acknowledge - from that list isn't obvious?
 

kps88

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He's 18.... with 30 appearances in the Uruguayan Premier League he won't be doing much with the first team bar an odd sub appearance here and there.

Badiashile I'd give you if there were heavy reports we were strongly in for him. CB is actually the only area we seem to do any scouting anyway.

But please, go on about all these top finds our first-team scouts have made.
Pellistri and Traore are exactly the sort of players scouts are there for. You never know, they could make an impact on the first team as well.

If you want someone guaranteed to improve our first team, chances are they aren't going to be a complete unknown.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
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So just to recap, this summer our magnificent first-team scouts identified the following... am I missing anyone?

Jadon Sancho - England International right winger who's played for Dortmund. What a find.

Edison Cavani - 33 year old international footballer with over 300 appearances for a tiny club called PSG

Donny Van De Beak - Very promising player who I imagine everyone at this point has seen play for Ajax in their Champions League runs (and who may well have basically offered to us by Van Der Sar)

Sergio Reguilon - Literally just played against us for Sevilla... also was being shopped out by Madrid, so how much our scouts can take credit for here I'm not sure.

Ousmane Dembele - Another gem uncovered here...The worlds 6th most expensive footballer.... who again it looks like is being shopped out by Barca.

Alex Telles - Porto left back, fair enough this might have required some googling.

Again, what do our scouts do exactly? Who cares... Raises all around.
No, these players we were linked with. No one would know which players scouts identified, we will only know which players we tried to sign.

Scouts don't sign players.
 

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Pellistri and Traore are exactly the sort of players scouts are there for. You never know, they could make an impact on the first team as well.

If you want someone guaranteed to improve our first team, chances are they aren't going to be a complete unknown.
They could, but they also equally couldn't... and if they don't make it in 2/3 years will anyone really care? It's a low risk/high-reward strategy... but it doesn't help us in the here and now.

This is true, but there are also levels in between a complete unknown and the most obvious solution immaginable.

No, these players we were linked with. No one would know which players scouts identified, we will only know which players we tried to sign.

Scouts don't sign players.
Scouts don't sign players but either we're just not listening to them (and so signing Cavani on deadline day, and have no alternative for Sanco) or they're not finding first-team players that don't cost an arm and a leg that can make an impact.
 

roonster09

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Scouts don't sign players but either we're just not listening to them (and so signing Cavani on deadline day, and have no alternative for Sanco) or they're not finding first-team players that don't cost an arm and a leg that can make an impact
Does anyone have idea on which players they recommended? They can list 100 players, end of the day, Ole, Phelan, Woodward and couple of others pick the targets.
 

Annihilate Now!

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Does anyone have idea on which players they recommended? They can list 100 players, end of the day, Ole, Phelan, Woodward and couple of others pick the targets.
Its all shots in the dark of course, but there has to be a reason why this club hasn't really made first-team mid-range signing for quite some time. Telles will probably be the first for ages.
 

Zen86

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We signed masses of young talent from other clubs, this season and last:
  • 9 U18s this season. 10 if you add Omari Forson.
  • Same number the previous season.
Why haven't any of them broken into the first team yet???? Sounds like they don't know what they're doing to me.
 

Annihilate Now!

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We signed masses of young talent from other clubs, this season and last:
  • 9 U18s this season. 10 if you add Omari Forson.
  • Same number the previous season.
Our Youth Scouting has always been pretty good, but then it's a much easier thing to do. Of those 20 players, you only really banking on 1 or 2 being good enough for the first team... and even if all 20 don't make it, will anyone remember? or care?
 

roonster09

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Its all shots in the dark of course, but there has to be a reason why this club hasn't really made first-team mid-range signing for quite some time. Telles will probably be the first for ages.
Is Telles any different than Bruno? Both well known players from Portuguese league. Fred was from Ukranian league.

I agree with the sentiment that we should take risks in the market on unproven players.
 

spiriticon

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We signed masses of young talent from other clubs, this season and last:
  • 9 U18s this season. 10 if you add Omari Forson.
  • Same number the previous season.
Youth scouting if a different thing from first team scouting. Even then out of all these international talents scouted from all over the world, how many of them really make it for us? At the end of the day its kids from Wythenshawe and Bradford that are our best talents.

Fosu-Mensah, Pereira, Januzaj, Gomes, Chong... ugh.

I can only hope Omari Forson, whoever he is, is better than the crop above.
 

Roboc7

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The problem isn’t necessarily the scouts, it’s the lack of alignment between the recruitment team and the manager/coaching. It’s all a big mess and no one has any idea about how to build a football team, how to bring on players that complement others or cover weaknesses etc etc.

We bought a really slow CB to play with another slow CB, then decide to play a high line. A defensive RB even though we have a defensive LB and decide we want them to push forward. Feels like we bought who we thought were best players not best players for our system or to complement who we have.
 

Foxbatt

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The problem isn’t necessarily the scouts, it’s the lack of alignment between the recruitment team and the manager/coaching. It’s all a big mess and no one has any idea about how to build a football team, how to bring on players that complement others or cover weaknesses etc etc.

We bought a really slow CB to play with another slow CB, then decide to play a high line. A defensive RB even though we have a defensive LB and decide we want them to push forward. Feels like we bought who we thought were best players not best players for our system or to complement who we have.
This is why Jose wanted him because he is a defensive coach. Then Ole gets him to play out of the back. I think he has no idea at all how to coach properly a football team. To tell you honestly it is a team effort and if his coaches are terrible then he is going to suffer too. For the life of me I cannot understand how incompetent they are. Yes they may not be able to make a Messi or a Ronaldo out of our strikers but surely they can organise how to take a free kick or a corner? That is down to absolute idiocy or arrogance or ignorance.
 

onemanarmy

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Why haven't any of them broken into the first team yet???? Sounds like they don't know what they're doing to me.
Because they are like 16 years old? There's been a big change in the youth recruitment last couple of years. We'll benefit from it in 2-3 years.