No. There were clearly other problems at the club off the pitch.But football changed on the pitch in the early 90s too and Liverpool couldn't adapt. It was definitely a factor. Obviously it's dumb to say it's the only factor but I do think changes in the rules are often overlooked by fans who focus on spending power, managerial appointments and transfers. As I said at the outset the role of the back pass rule is underestimated.
United...1990s Liverpool re-enacted?
- Thread starter PickledRed
- Start date
For Rory. Just for old times sake xx
On a serious note. I think what that that clip shows is not just how good Liverpool were, but you can also see that Ferguson was starting to get it right at OT. 4-0 flattered us on the day but we still played some great football. Neil Webb was a wonderful player. Such a shame his career was ended by injury.
I honestly think that Liverpool team under Dalglish were very very different in style to previous teams. They were much more expansive. But even they fecked up a league passing back to Grobellar against Arsenal in 1989. Dig out some footage of the European Cup in the 70s, proper extended footage. I remember one in particular where the last half hour was spent passing it back to Clemence.
This discussion wouldn't be complete without the best Liverpool back pass of the lot
And your average attendance in 1993, when you were champions for the first time in 25 years, was 35k. Must have been some boring stuff back then at Old Trafford
From 1988 to 1993 we were making ground improvements. The 1991/92 season was last of standing at the Stretford End when we then commenced rebuilding it. We only had 3/4 of a ground that season so hardly surprising.And your average attendance in 1993, when you were champions for the first time in 25 years, was 35k. Must have been some boring stuff back then at Old Trafford
Liverpool in the 1970's and 1980's were a great team...you had truly great managers in Shankly and Paisley and some of your players like Dalglish, Souness, Rush, Heighway, Hansen were all class and would easily have got into United's team at the time.
I hated them passionately but the league table never lies.
Any United fan saying the opposite is deluded.
The backpass rule killed Liverpool.
Everyone knows it.
Everyone knows it.
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I've never said United won't return to greatness first of all, although I'm indeed pretty sure you'll never reach the peak you had under SAF. And of course SAF retiring was the end of an era, I don't see how anyone can deny that.
I've also never said Mourinho will fail at United, but the fact that he was succesful at all his clubs doesn't mean that he has had an era anywhere. He didn't at Inter, Porto or Madrid cause he doesn't stick around long enough.
My impression of it (partly thanks to contribution on here) is now that Paisley took an already very good team to another level. LFC also then obtained a fair stockpile of a lot of the best players either (50/50) through the best scouting & the best buying.
They were also very tactically astute - Kenny dropping off the front when he wasn't winning dubious pens with his trademark 'backing in' & obviously the back pass,
.
The Barnes/Beardsley mob played fantastic footy only spoilt by them allowing that bellend Aldridge to score most of the goals.
They were also very tactically astute - Kenny dropping off the front when he wasn't winning dubious pens with his trademark 'backing in' & obviously the back pass,
.The Barnes/Beardsley mob played fantastic footy only spoilt by them allowing that bellend Aldridge to score most of the goals.
You're such a partyspoiler coming with these stupid facts
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Yeah, SAF retiring was the end of the era. The current period could be the start of a decline or a return to greatness. The poster that originated this chain of discussion seemed to be claiming the former, I thought you were agreeing with that. I misunderstood if that was not the case.
Mourinho might not stick around to reap all the reward, and I seriously doubt anyone will come close to SAF's longevity, but it would still be the start of an era if we started winning titles under him and then continued after he left. He'd have put us back on track. I don't know if Mourinho will be the one to win United its first post Fergie title but I believe we'll get there in the next few years regardless, due to the ambition the board is showing.
We are slowly getting there at least from a forum perspective we are becoming more like RAWK where in blaming the manager gets you abuse and you get shouted down by the regulars. Opposition fans in the forum get laughed at even though United is basically unable to win two games on a trot yet we somehow have a better team than Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool etc.
The match day forum is all about how referees are bent and against United. Where "This guy is going to be the referee for the big match" is a thread before every big game and all you see is how United get a bad deal against referees.
This was almost never the case when Fergie was with United. But since then ref's being bent and great goal keeping have been the reasons United have been unable to play out a title challenge. Jose was supposed to come and put an end to all this. But he himself keeps blaming the situation of playing so many games in a month with the players he chose to have, cribs about how he would not have sold Welbeck and Hernandez. United now are a big club in terms of revenue, big club on facebook, but on the pitch a very easy team to play against. But hopefully, the tide can change with the Europa (hopefully) win and once we spend another 200 million pounds (next year is our year).
The match day forum is all about how referees are bent and against United. Where "This guy is going to be the referee for the big match" is a thread before every big game and all you see is how United get a bad deal against referees.
This was almost never the case when Fergie was with United. But since then ref's being bent and great goal keeping have been the reasons United have been unable to play out a title challenge. Jose was supposed to come and put an end to all this. But he himself keeps blaming the situation of playing so many games in a month with the players he chose to have, cribs about how he would not have sold Welbeck and Hernandez. United now are a big club in terms of revenue, big club on facebook, but on the pitch a very easy team to play against. But hopefully, the tide can change with the Europa (hopefully) win and once we spend another 200 million pounds (next year is our year).
Souness was a better bet than Moyes.
Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Dalgleish leave Liverpool after 1990 with an ageing side with nearly every position needing replacing?
He must have thrown the last of the European money on Barnes & Beardsley. And then was reduced to the likes of Jimmy Carter & David Speedie wasn't it?
Or what we said further back - replacing 4, 5 or 6 players of the top players all at once isn't straight-forward. Can be done, but needs some luck with buys & players coming through being equally as good. You might have moderately more chance than you have starting from scratch but great teams break up & things are not as good is the general rule.
Unless it isn't, because you do seem to get eras of dominance, 20 years of it still fairly extraordinary though, unless it isn't because we've just had 2** in a row.
(**a lot of Kop End penalty cheating & back-pass gamesmanship during the Liverpool one, obviously)
Haven’t posted on here for a long time for a variety of reasons so fully open to being bumped off for bumping this thread that I wrote over two years ago.
However, I’d be interested to know if more people are in agreement to the premise I explored in the OP. At the time it wasn’t entirely welcome.
*ducks*
However, I’d be interested to know if more people are in agreement to the premise I explored in the OP. At the time it wasn’t entirely welcome.
*ducks*
There's quite a lot of optimistic ''oh no, that can never happen here'' posting on the first page, .
.EL this coming season, so one more to go.
We’re doomed Capt Mainwaring....
Seriously though, we are really doomed.
Seriously though, we are really doomed.
:snigger:
Just read the first page & this piece from one of the early posters made me chuckleThere's quite a lot of optimistic ''oh no, that can never happen here'' posting on the first page,
But there are two points of difference. Firstly, the club has resisted trying to recreate the past in the same way Liverpool reached for Evans and the boot room legacy after the Souness disaster - hiring Mourinho was a clear indication that United have no room for sentiment and will not be appointing the likes of Giggs anytime soon.
Liverpool, have been pretty successful, since 1991, Benitez era, Houlier era, both won cups, ok league was rank, except them nearly getting it under the Spanish Waiter.
Pool are in a good place at present but they've been there before, won CL , but not league, people say they should have got there first premier league, I don't think so City albeit won by a point, were far the best side in league?
Utd are in a mess it's not a mess that can be fixed quick, the people who run the club fell into the mesmerising fact that expensive players are the answer!!
Pool I expect to not keep up the momentum they had this season, there midfield is just as poor as ours, but they have a cracking back line bar 1. And top 3 . Plus they have a direction of how to play, this has been picked at over 4 years or so.
Utd rebuild should have started with Moyes, it didn't, LVG, Jose were given by the sounds of it the bums rush from Woodward etc.
I can see UTD taking another 3 seasons to get league not 30yrs , UTD have way to much not to be a force again.
Pool are in a good place at present but they've been there before, won CL , but not league, people say they should have got there first premier league, I don't think so City albeit won by a point, were far the best side in league?
Utd are in a mess it's not a mess that can be fixed quick, the people who run the club fell into the mesmerising fact that expensive players are the answer!!
Pool I expect to not keep up the momentum they had this season, there midfield is just as poor as ours, but they have a cracking back line bar 1. And top 3 . Plus they have a direction of how to play, this has been picked at over 4 years or so.
Utd rebuild should have started with Moyes, it didn't, LVG, Jose were given by the sounds of it the bums rush from Woodward etc.
I can see UTD taking another 3 seasons to get league not 30yrs , UTD have way to much not to be a force again.
For that to happen you're going to have to find yourself another Ferguson first, as you've already proved that money alone can't buy you titles. & then you've got the little matter of trying to overcome the likes of Pep & Klopp, not to say the others in the top 6 who'll no doubt be striving to improve over the coming years. Not forgetting the fact that there's quite a few rich clubs out there, so attracting the very best is far more difficult than it was some 10-15 years ago. You've fallen into the trap of looking at the problem purely from an internal point of view. There's many external factors that could very well hamper your chances of achieving what you suggested in your post. We found that out last season. 97 points & still no prize.
The original post was not about the current state of Liverpool so is not relevant to the discussion. It's a direct comparison to Liverpool in the 1990s with United since Ferguson left. I suggest keeping within those parameters for the purposes of this particular debate.
A bit below the belt quoting that one from a couple of years ago..
Back from when I thought our Board was vaguely sane.
Possibly a bit below the belt. Past posts make mugs of us all. However, it's kind of fair game in the sense that the scope of the debate was about where United stood in 2017 and where they were going as a club. The issues raised in the OP suggest that there were clear signs that the coming years would be tricky for United - I wasn't the only one thinking these things.
Yes, you were spot on. At the time I had faith in Mourinho to be good enough to overcome the structural failings at United. Plus I never dreamed we’d then pick Solskjaer to go up against Guardiola and Klopp.
Fair play
The current state of Liverpool, and Utd is the relevant discussion, if you are going to compare Liverpool. From 1990 to present, then the present is relevant, it's called History!
Since SAF left? He left when? After him came Moyes, after him Lvg after him Jose. All in original post, all relevant, to how, the 2 teams in History have been ups and downs, relevant, relevant.
Yep could well be correct, I going for 3 seasons, may be more, but theres players are out there, the players, that city have got now are aging , theres top competion to get the top players in world now from all clubs , not saying it hasn't always been like that.
But top teams are moving quicker now, getting younger improven players, the ones that stay at clubs get better, and then want a move at say 25 26 those are not coming cheap, city come calling now clubs are saying£100 million please,
PSG will be same, those cannot buy 2 or 3 at that price, as before they could when valuations were 40 to 50.
Could be a wrong, I just think that's how it's going to pan out.
We need to move away from the idea that 2nd, pushing 1st is going to be easy for us. Those days are gone for the timebeing. And even 2nd didn't help Jose too much anyway.
4th minimum & improving with decent footy. We need to be realistic.
And hope Woodward fecks off out of the footy side, obviously -.
4th minimum & improving with decent footy. We need to be realistic.
And hope Woodward fecks off out of the footy side, obviously -
.Our fans are in for a rude awakening.
Especially next season. I think last season will be better than next one.
Especially next season. I think last season will be better than next one.
That would be the end of Ole then. Probably rightly. What do we do then?
You might be right, but the direction of travel at this very early stage is a bit more encouraging at least.
The shape & structure of the team is a complete mess. Similar happened to Liverpool too I think. Players who weren't going to get on together. Mark Walters & Rush, stuff like that. We got Lukaku, Martial. Rash as a front 3 - I mean, it's obvious surely,
.Pogba, Matic, Jones, Smalling - when you want to graft, pass, workrate, dominate, transition quickly (which is the game these days)
#Rambling
I think this post shows why Liverpool declined so much.Yes it was.
Torypool owners were the Moore family. They owned a big pools company. They were one of the richest families in the UK and Europe.
John Moores was worth £1.7billion in 1989.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-22188762
Then the national lottery came and their pools company took a big hit.
It because so bad that they had to sell to the two Cowboys-who were welcomed with open arms by the KOP. Then after that went sour Liverpool fans openly begged for investment from Middle-Eastern sources with really poor records on human rights(Proud socialist tradition la)
http://www.lfchistory.net/Articles/Article/3038
Also under the Moore ownership Liverpool(a club with a proud socialist tradition
They ran out of money.
Now they have all those middle-aged fans who were kids in the 70s/80s to fill the stadium.
I guess in the 2030s Man City will have a huge fan base.
It was crazy (and shows the genius of Ferguson) that Liverpool had both a higher gross and net spend on transfer fees (despite significantly lower revenues) than United did under Ferguson. So Ferguson comfortably achieved his ambition to knock Liverpool off his perch despite less money on transfer fees than them.
yeah, the money (European too) helped them operate a larger squad than their rivals too in the 80s & a fair few buys were other teams' top players
in the very mainly domestic market
and if you think they get a few penalties now, Kenny was falling on his arse for no apparent reason practically every week
in the very mainly domestic market
and if you think they get a few penalties now, Kenny was falling on his arse for no apparent reason practically every week