United and Liverpool driving "Project Big Picture" - Football’s biggest shake-up in a generation

[rotherham_red]

Because you were lucky enough to get Ferguson as manager and hit a winning streak as the premier league kicked off? It could have been Liverpool, it could have been Arsenal or someone else. The product (the league) drove your club to new heights. You are a gigantic global brand in no small part because of the premier league as a whole, don't forget that.

This "Big Six" is nonsense anyway, it's a recent Sky Sport construction. Leicester have won more honours than Spurs in the last 30 years. Spurs went 15 years in the 90's and 2000's within finishing above 7th. Chelsea did nothing for about 30 years until the late 90's. Man City... well.

It never used to be like this, teams had ups and downs, you included. It's just another sickening cash grab to try and make the top of the league a closed shop.

Absolutely. Just as the Big 4 was bollocks.

I dread these proposals passing tbh, would just totally feck over what is the most exciting and best league around and all the while, it would entrench the Glazers at the club and would probably mean they never leave in our lifetimes.

 

[Dave Smith]

I am curious about one thing. The project big picture is nothing but a power grab (the voting rights are laughably bad) from two greedy American owner in the league. But why people think overseas tv rights should be equally shared? Clubs like Brighton don't have many fans and if they are replaced by another club it hardly will make any difference to global audience.

Because one of the principal reasons Utd are so popular is owing to them playing in a competitive league. If the PL goes down this route then it is likely that the vast majority of the money goes to the top 6 in the long term which will dilute the power of the league. The reason why so many tune into Utd/top 6 games is owing to their being a sense of jeopardy in each game, take that away and the league ends up like La Liga and Serie A which in the long term impacts the revenues as less people will watch as the top teams will just roll the lower ranked sides over.

Also, the real carrot atm is that the EFL will get 25% but how long does that last when 6 clubs can vote through changes to suit them? I give it a maximum of a decade.

 

[hobbers]

The fact the Glazers want these proposals through means that however reasonable or interesting they might sound on paper, they will be a cancer on the English game in the long term.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

So what will you do when all the other clubs go bust and you have no one to play against?

We win the league automatically every season obviously.

Aka the Bundisliga model.

 

[Tincanalley]

Absolutely vile from United and Liverpool to be honest. It's very very easy to see through this. So let's go through it........



So before we start the process of these new measures that over a long period will benefit us about 200 times more than the lower league lets try and buy them off with some payments, maybe they wont notice the absolute nonsense that will follow.



Ah yes, here we go. So basically us teams in the top six we want to paid more than the rest because we always finish in the top six, why should you get money when we always finish in the top six and you don't?

Yes, we should abolish the League Cup and Community Shield and instead play pre season tournaments in 100 degree temperatures in the middle east and Asia because more money for us of course. Less competitive football and more pre season friendlies, its for the good of the players...

Also do Man City know about this? cant see them approving of the League Cup being disbanded, that basically wipes out half their trophy cabinet.



Ah wait we better throw in a mention about the women's game so it looks like we give a shit.



How can we shit on the lower teams whilst pretending we're giving them more opportunity? I know lets relegate more of them and promote less of them but give them an extra game to try and save themselves, hopefully they wont see through the charade.



We better mention something about financial fair play so these proposals look fair.



Oh yeah, we better do something nice for the fans who see through the charade so let's mention something that's been spoken about for ten years but we secretly know is never going to happen, 'safe standing'. We'll cap their away tickets but don't worry we'll increase the prices to view the Premier League on TV so we make the money back in other ways. Worse case scenario we charge them 50 quid for a beer and hot dog instead of the standard 25.



Yeah so cancelling the League Cup and a later start date means we can to do important things like play more pre season friendlies half way across the world. It'll be great for the players but mostly those Sheiks will pay us shit loads. Not you though Burnley because nobody wants to see you.

And yes we want more loans, more and more loans. This way we can stockpile talent, keeping them away from smaller clubs and that way we get all the transfer money when we sell them.

Honestly, anyone advocating this wants to have a long and hard think, read through the lines. The thing with greedy bastards is they never stop, if something like this gets the go ahead how far do you think these bigger clubs will go to protect themselves and make more money for them. The next step would be league splits (similar to Scotland) so that we get 4 Manchester derbies a season and shit and before you know it, they'll be stating we should get a two tier Premier League.

Excellent post. Complete with dirty dig at City.

 

[clarkydaz]

I'm disgusted that United are involved in this, albeit not surprised with the disgusting creatures at the top of the club. To be completely honest I'm more surprised in Liverpool, I genuinely thought they got football in this country - apparently not.

Why on earth would you think that? They tried to hike ticket prices up years back and liverpool fans (to their credit) said no and walked out. They also just tried to furlough their staff after winning the CL and Premier League. Do not give any of these twats an inch

 

[Buster15]

The fact the Glazers want these proposals through means that however reasonable or interesting they might sound on paper, they will be a cancer on the English game in the long term.

Well said.
I keep hearing that something has to change.
Why?
The Premier League is incredibly successful and the envy of most other top football nations.
I am in favour of a more balanced flowdown of money to the lower leagues.
However, when you delve into the details and taking account that the PL would be 10% smaller, and with the loss of the League Cup, there will actually be less money generated for distribution.

With all of the current Covid problems, stop trying to fix what is not broken.

 

[Buster15]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Other beneficiaries of backdated payments:
Liverpool: 30m.
City: 12.5m.
Brighton: If they stay up this year and if the proposals are signed off before the end of this season; could just miss out.

Future beneficiaries, taking into account current plans:
Everton: 250m.
Liverpool: 30m.

The inevitable, self serving caveats:

• Clubs can apply for up to 250m, but only if they've been in the Prem for 12 out of the last 15 years.
• You're allowed up to150m if you've been in for 8 out of the last 10.
• You're allowed up to 100m if you've been in for the last 4.
• Your project has to cost at least 50m to be eligible.
• Payments backdated for projects completed in the last 10 years.

On the self serving structure of payments to clubs:

• All newly promoted clubs would be obliged to hold back £25 million per season for their first two years in the league, greatly reducing their spending power and chances of survival.
• The Premier League will tell its members that by season 2025-2026, when the full transition has been completed, under PBP proposals the bottom club would earn between £40 million and £50 million and the top club around £160 million. That would make the ratio between top earners and the lowest 1:4. The £40 million to £50 million figure represents a huge fall from the £102 million that bottom club Norwich City earned last season.

feck off with this bullshit

Your post highlights the reason.
Money.
Nothing whatsoever about making the game even more attractive for the fans.
It is the fans who are the biggest stakeholders not so called big business.
Why do businesses invest so much money in the PL. Because their customers, the fans of football support those businesses and consume their products.

So are the fans pushing this proposal??

 

[Bebestation]

The Americans owners of all clubs have no love for this league.

Liverpool haven't improved because of their owners, just Klopp - without him they would be the same rut we are in.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Its a disgrace Spurs milking millions from the TV rights because united made hundreds of millions of viewers around the glob. I dont want to give my money to fecking Daniel Levy. I hope the day that every club owns its match TV right and send it to only their fans comes soon. Nobody will be interested in watching Spurs playing against Fulham on craven cottage in a stupid London derby.

What are you on about? Spurs have one of the largest fan bases in England. We hold the record for the largest number of fans (85,512) to attend an English club's Champion's League game at home, which incidentally is the all-time record for a home match in England across all clubs and all competitions.

We also have an expanding fanbase worldwide, with a claimed three million fans in the UK, and over 180 million around the world who follow the team's progress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._supporters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_record_home_attendances_of_English_football_clubs

 

[lysglimt]

Out of curiosity (I havent read all 9 pages) - what would be required for this go through ?

 

[Giggsyking]

So what will you do when all the other clubs go bust and you have no one to play against?

Do like Germany and Spain. They have better national teams than England.

 

[Giggsyking]

What are you on about? Spurs have one of the largest fan bases in England. We hold the record for the largest number of fans (85,512) to attend an English club's Champion's League game at home, which incidentally is the all-time record for a home match in England across all clubs and all competitions.

We also have an expanding fanbase worldwide, with a claimed three million fans in the UK, and over 180 million around the world who follow the team's progress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._supporters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_record_home_attendances_of_English_football_clubs

I am still talking about abroad TV-rights. I cant understand how this is difficult. It is unfair that clubs like Spurs Wesbrom etc get TV-rights money because hundreds of millions are paying to watch Man utd.

 

[Tel074]

I would be against absolutely anything our owners have decided is a good idea .

 

[Tincanalley]

This is a bad, bad, sign. It means the American cnuts are taking an interest in the league itself. Teaming us up with the Liverpool owners? Making it more exclusive. Getting rid of certain cups? Poison. Poison. Poison.

They are clueless; so what is the source of this great inspiration? I hear it’s mostly coming from the owners of the Dippers.

 

[Cloud7]

It is an absolutely repulsive post.

"Project Big Picture" is nothing more than a cynical power grab and should be treated with the disdain it deserves - no surprise the first two EFL clubs to support it were the vanity projects at Fleetwood and Forest Green.

I'm disgusted that United are involved in this, albeit not surprised with the disgusting creatures at the top of the club. To be completely honest I'm more surprised in Liverpool, I genuinely thought they got football in this country - apparently not.

The only difference between the Liverpool hierarchy and ours is that they ended up hiring the best manager in the world. The wanking over them as some kind of “sporting project” has always been ridiculous. They’re no different to the glazers.

 

[edcunited1878]

The only difference between the Liverpool hierarchy and ours is that they ended up hiring the best manager in the world. The wanking over them as some kind of “sporting project” has always been ridiculous. They’re no different to the glazers.

Nah, it's not that simple because Fenway Sports Group or John Henry's group is one of the best sports companies in the world as evident by the Red Sox's competitiveness for the better part of the past 20 years.

They didn't just magically hire Klopp and it changed immediately. The groundwork was being laid well before Klopp got there and they've done good renovations/updates to Anfield, unlike the Glazers and OT. They also have really good investors (like LeBron James) and get out of the way and give football men the work on the football side.

 

[scudetto_boy]

I'm going against the with some of what is written above but i like the look of the changes i.e. a permanent 25% annual share of tv contracts, the reduction of teams in the Premier League & an end to the League Cup (lost all status which is genuinely & sincerely tragic. personally i like giving fringe players & young players perfect & valuable experience but is this what it has come to? Yes & if we admit it, i suspect you will all agree.

Understandably the likes of West Ham etc won't like the proposals.

In fact i'd go further & make all the divisions either 18 or 20 teams only & ask Celtic & Rangers to join the new 6th or 7th league division (depending how many exist above the Conference/Vanarama League).

I'm being a bit biased but i think a enormous sense if we all look at the bigger picture for the future of the game. As for power grabs-bizarre. 25% of annual tv revenue is being distributed (when oh when did that last happen, eh?) & i think it will help teams in Europe & International players.

 

[Bugs Bunny]

This is a disgrace. I have been a United fan from 1967. I will stop supporting and watching the PL if this happens. Yes I am just one person. It also could be the making off another club if the match going fans shift their loyalty to another clubs not in this big 6.

You won't be the only one that's for certain. Supported City for nearly 50 years but if they get behind this and it comes to fruition they won't be getting another penny from me and, by the sounds of it, nor from many of my fellow City fans.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I am still talking about abroad TV-rights. I cant understand how this is difficult. It is unfair that clubs like Spurs Wesbrom etc get TV-rights money because hundreds of millions are paying to watch Man utd.

As I've already said, Spurs have a large global fanbase. The idea that we are dependent on United is laughable.

 

[cyberman]

As I've already said, Spurs have a large global fanbase. The idea that we are dependent on United is laughable.

And why do you have a global fanbase? Maybe because of the amount of eyes that superclubs such as Utd and Liverpool bring to the league?
Nobody is saying other clubs dont have a global fanbase, its just not at Utd or Liverpools level and maybe they should be rewarded as such.
I never used to think that way but feck it.

 

[GlastonSpur]

And why do you have a global fanbase? Maybe because of the amount of eyes that superclubs such as Utd and Liverpool bring to the league?
Nobody is saying other clubs dont have a global fanbase, its just not at Utd or Liverpools level and maybe they should be rewarded as such.
I never used to think that way but feck it.

We have a global fanbase because Spurs have long been a big club with a rich history. For example, back in the 60s - after our FA Cup & League double, and following our becoming the first British club ever to win a European trophy - Spurs were probably the most famous British club bar none.

The footballing world does not revolve around United and Liverpool and never has.

 

[HarryRedCrumbs]

Good to see a joint statement coming out in opposition to certain proposals of “the big picture”

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/man-united-project-big-picture-19098494

statement reads;

“The fans we represent are fortunate to support clubs that regularly secure the largest financial revenues in the Premier League. But all of us understand that football doesn’t work in isolation. It’s a family. It requires a fair share of resources to ensure that the Premier League is competitive to watch and that the lower leagues flourish as part of our national game.

While the six clubs we support are widely reported to be the instigators of Project Big Picture, it is important we state very clearly that we do not support the proposals in their current form.

The Premier League has rightly said that all stakeholders should be involved in discussions about the future of the game. And yet supporters have not had the courtesy of any communication or consultation about these plans before they were published last Sunday, despite allegedly being three years in the making.

By floating this latest plan, those behind it are acknowledging football needs to be reformed. It’s something we have been saying for many years. There are some suggestions in this plan that have merit. But we are totally opposed to concentrating power in the hands of six billionaire owners and departing from the one club, one vote and collective ethos of the Premier League. This part of the proposal must be dropped immediately if other elements are to be given serious consideration.

We welcome the Government reiterating its plan for a supporter-led review into football governance. This needs to happen as a matter of urgency and supporter groups must be consulted on the terms of reference. These terms must include how fans are to be given a greater say in the running of their clubs and a chance to be involved in ownership structures.

We call on the Government and football authorities to now work urgently to secure a sustainable future for all clubs, many of which face serious threats to their existence as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. We also expect both parties to make a genuine commitment to reform and to listen to our members. Fans are the lifeblood of the game. We need to be heard as soon as possible.

Arsenal Supporters’ Trust
Chelsea Supporters’ Trust
Spirit of Shankly (Liverpool Supporters’ Union)
Manchester City FC Supporters Club (The OSC)
Manchester United Supporters’ Trust
Tottenham Hotspur Supporters’ Trust”

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

We have a global fanbase because Spurs have long been a big club with a rich history. For example, back in the 60s - after our FA Cup & League double, and following our becoming the first British club ever to win a European trophy - Spurs were probably the most famous British club bar none.

The footballing world does not revolve around United and Liverpool and never has.

you won’t find a load of United fans posting on a spurs forum though will you...

By your assertions, Celtic, Villa and even Forrest have global fan bases because of historic achievements. It’s irrelevant as far as I’m concerned.

your fanbase is irrelevant, as is anyone else’s. This Is not a dick waving contest. The product is the PL. not individual clubs.

I’m a big advocate of shared rights, it’s what makes the PL the best league in the world, and the most competitive.

5 different winners in the last 8 Years.

I don’t want Man Utd to win the league 8,9,10 years in a row. That’s boring, not just for the team that’s winning.

That’s a shit product, and why watching German, French or Italian football holds no appeal to me. It’s like sitting down to watch Sixth Sense for the first time knowing Bruce Willis is dead. What’s the bloody point. *its 24 years old, so hopefully it doesn’t require spoilers.

I’m not sure they were expecting the backlash,but the vast majority of fans of PL teams are against this. Including those of Utd and Liverpool. Understandably EFL clubs are behind it, because it could ensure their survival.

 

[GlastonSpur]

... your fanbase is irrelevant, as is anyone else’s. This Is not a dick waving contest. The product is the PL. not individual clubs. ...

I agree. I'm not the one who introduced the subject of United and Liverpool vs Spurs and other clubs. I simply responded to the poster who did.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I agree. I'm not the one who introduced the subject of United and Liverpool vs Spurs and other clubs. I simply responded to the poster who did.

that’s more than fair enough.

unfortunately a portion of our fans are entitled and spoiled.

 

[VP]

I'm amazed that the country that practically invented football, the idea of fandom and the concept of football clubs as manifestations of community has now let the future of these community assets and the sport be determined by an assortment of greedy Yanks.

How did this happen? Are fans just so feckless that they can't even rally together to save their sport? Even on here, most seem to care more about United signing Sancho than the future of the club or the sport.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I'm amazed that the country that practically invented football, the idea of fandom and the concept of football clubs as manifestations of community has now let the future of these community assets and the sport be determined by an assortment of greedy Yanks.

How did this happen? Are fans just so feckless that they can't even rally together to save their sport? Even on here, most seem to care more about United signing Sancho than the future of the club or the sport.

fan groups are doing what they can. As soon as Utd became a PLC we lost control of the club.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54531760


On Tuesday, a joint statement from supporters' groups of the ‘big six’ teams said: “The fans we represent are fortunate to support clubs that regularly secure the largest financial revenues in the Premier League. But all of us understand that football doesn’t work in isolation - it’s a family.

“It requires a fair share of resources to ensure that the Premier League is competitive to watch and that the lower leagues flourish as part of our national game.

“While the six clubs we support are widely reported to be the instigators of Project Big Picture, it is important we state very clearly we do not support the proposals in their current form.

“We are totally opposed to concentrating power in the hands of six billionaire owners and departing from the one club, one vote and collective ethos of the Premier League. This part of the proposal must be dropped immediately if other elements are to be given serious consideration.

“We welcome the government reiterating its plan for a supporter-led review into football governance. This needs to happen as a matter of urgency and supporter groups must be consulted."

 

[cyberman]

We have a global fanbase because Spurs have long been a big club with a rich history. For example, back in the 60s - after our FA Cup & League double, and following our becoming the first British club ever to win a European trophy - Spurs were probably the most famous British club bar none.

The footballing world does not revolve around United and Liverpool and never has.

The selling of English football around the world has though. With Arsenal and Chelsea in tow.
Spurs has a big player in England is a recent thing. Very little input on the elite side of things. Even lesser than teams like Leicester or City.

 

[edcunited1878]

We have a global fanbase because Spurs have long been a big club with a rich history. For example, back in the 60s - after our FA Cup & League double, and following our becoming the first British club ever to win a European trophy - Spurs were probably the most famous British club bar none.

The footballing world does not revolve around United and Liverpool and never has.

Nobody cares what Spurs did before the PL was being concepted and formed. Honestly, the world was a much less globalized society and extremely less connected world.

Spurs were part of the "Big Five" clubs because they had "greedy" or "forward-thinking" owners or chief executives who banded together to get more money...they were United, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, and Spurs. David Dein, Irving Scholar (Spurs), Martin Edward, Phil Carter (Everton), Noel White (Liverpool), started the groundswell of making football in England or at least this top division (PL) into a money-whoring product that we see now based on commercial assets, most notably TV.

Martin Edwards actually poached an commercial genius from Tottenham in the early to mid 90s, which coincided with the maturation of TV deals and United winning the PL, the class of 92, renovation of OT, etc. Then before you know it, it's 1999 and the internet era....who is on top of the English game, none other than United. But with United came Liverpool until Blackburn won the league, before Chelsea with their petro dollars, before City with their oil dollars, etc.

And with Spurs being a competent London team like Arsenal, they had their piece of the pie too. However, the majority of the top 8 clubs in the PL have a global fanbase now....but while the entire football world doesn't revolve around United nor Liverpool, the current money grabbing hands of the PL and the big clubs weren't because of a rich history....more because of timing and owners/chairmen who were money hungry and didn't give a shit about upsetting the Football League pyramid and who provided The FA false positives about the PL being a vehicle to increase the talent and likelihood of the England National Team becoming a perennial winning on the global national stage (obviously didn't/hasn't happened).

 

[Darlington Padgett]

If this goes through, it destroys any chance of the Glazers leaving any time soon.

 

[Prodigal7]

This would appear to be the top 6 saying. Look, you either accept
This or we join a European super league. There’s no denying it would give more power to the bigger clubs in the pl, but sometimes you have to go with the lesser of two evils.

 

[Prodigal7]

If this goes through, it destroys any chance of the Glazers leaving any time soon.

I can understand the resistance from traditionalists and English footballing purists. It does transfer more wealth and power to the top of the pl from the bottom, however it transfers wealth from the top league to the others in a way that is great for professional football as a whole.

however, as a united fan worried about the clubs descent, this would almost guarantee our position at the top of not just English football, but European football as well. Even compared to the other 5 in the pl, we have more viewers/fans than the rest of them put together, and the ownership of foreign tv rights could see us eclipse all other pl clubs in terms of tv revenue by an order of magnitude. We would finally be able to step on Real Madrid financially, as they treat the Spanish clubs far worse than the system being proposed in England.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

I can understand the resistance from traditionalists and English footballing purists. It does transfer more wealth and power to the top of the pl from the bottom, however it transfers wealth from the top league to the others in a way that is great for professional football as a whole.

however, as a united fan worried about the clubs descent, this would almost guarantee our position at the top of not just English football, but European football as well. Even compared to the other 5 in the pl, we have more viewers/fans than the rest of them put together, and the ownership of foreign tv rights could see us eclipse all other pl clubs in terms of tv revenue by an order of magnitude. We would finally be able to step on Real Madrid financially, as they treat the Spanish clubs far worse than the system being proposed in England.

I'd love for that to happen, however, we're owned by the Glazers. They'll just pocket the extra money and spend every other summer when we don't make it to the Champions League.

 

[GlastonSpur]

This would appear to be the top 6 saying. Look, you either accept
This or we join a European super league. There’s no denying it would give more power to the bigger clubs in the pl, but sometimes you have to go with the lesser of two evils.

I believe it's a bluff that should be called. To abandon (and thus destroy) the known cash-cow that's the Prem - in favour of a leap into the unknown - is a huge risk that I don't think they'll be willing to take. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

 

[Prodigal7]

I believe it's a bluff that should be called. To abandon (and thus destroy) the known cash-cow that's the Prem - in favour of a leap into the unknown - is a huge risk that I don't think they'll be willing to take. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I work in sports conferencing and know a little bit about this from overheard conversations. Any European Super league would be for United and Arsenal/Liverpool initially with the other teams cut out based on most recent discussions/hearsay. Discussions were based on an 8 team league to replace the cl, but there were recent efforts to expand it to 10 teams. Apparently we’re cutting Chelsea out the picture because of their financial model and trying to get Liverpool in the picture because London clubs have a greater attraction to foreign players, which is why the club are more keen for it to be Liverpool involved to reduce competition in potential recruitment.

still United know that in a European super league we would loose our comparative pulling power for players but for London clubs it works more to their advantage. It’s no coincidence that United and Liverpool (Non London clubs) are the ones trying to make English football more amenable to them instead of pursuing a European super league.

 

[Bastian]

This would appear to be the top 6 saying. Look, you either accept
This or we join a European super league. There’s no denying it would give more power to the bigger clubs in the pl, but sometimes you have to go with the lesser of two evils.

The lesser of two evils? It's a false dichotomy.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

The Glazers are quite literally scum.

Don't recognise the club anymore.

 

[Tyrion]

My spider senses are tingling at this. All seems too good to be something proposed by the likes of Man United and Liverpool.

That was my response. The proposed change to voting rights does seem to suggest more of a power grab than anything.

 

[clarkydaz]

If this goes through, it destroys any chance of the Glazers leaving any time soon.

yeah, i assume this is a safenet for even more mediocrity whilst raking in even more money