United are a top 7 club right now

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I’m Ole in but until we win something, it’s all a bit academic. Trophies are what matters, and as good a job as he’s done so far, that’s what he will be judged on when he leaves.
 

stu_1992

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If you're ole in at the moment, which i am, all you can do is wait and see how next season goes. I think there's a clear upward trajectory and that we're a couple of signings from being able to compete. Had we not collapsed v leipzig we'd have faced Liverpool then a really poor Madrid before a semi opponent in Chelsea.

We're not that far away but i understand why people might feel that seeing city and Chelsea in the final
[/QUOTE
We wouldn't have though as two teams from thr same country can't play each other in the first knock out round. Irrelevant anyway, its all "ifs and buts".
 

JPRouve

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We’re quite clearly a better team than at least some of the teams that progressed further than us. Which happens in cup competitions all the time.
But that's irrelevant, in cups there are no ifs or buts, you do it or you don't.
 

Pogue Mahone

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But that's irrelevant, in cups there are no ifs or buts, you do it or you don't.
Yes. But that’s not the point you responded to. Which was an observation that - despite crashing out early - there’s not much between United and this season’s top CL teams in terms of quality.

I honestly don’t know how well we’d have done in the knock-out stages but we do have a good record against this season’s finalists. And I don’t think an off night in Istanbul changes that.
 

hobbers

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Didn't feel very top 7 when we shat the bed against Istanbul and Leipzig.
 

JPRouve

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Yes. But that’s not the point you responded to. Which was an observation that - despite crashing out early - there’s not much between United and this season’s top CL teams in terms of quality.

I honestly don’t know how well we’d have done in the knock-out stages but we do have a good record against this season’s finalists. And I don’t think an off night in Istanbul changes that.
He asked for a subjective opinion and I shared mine. I don't really see what you are looking for.
 

JPRouve

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Your subjective opinion that we’re worse than those teams seemed to be based on our failure to progress as far as them in the competition. I was pointing out the flaw in your logic.
I didn't say that we were worse and it wasn't the question. He asked whether anyone else thought that we could be up there challenging for the CL? And my answer is no, because we were in the competition and didn't.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I didn't say that we were worse and it wasn't the question. He asked whether anyone else thought that we could be up there challenging for the CL? And my answer is no, because we were in the competition and didn't.
:lol: I’ll assume something got lost in translation! I don’t think he was hoping for a literal answer as to how likely we are to win the CL this season.
 

BaillyBaillyBailly

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Does anyone else has the feeling we could be up there challenging in the UCL?

I don't know if it's just me but I don't rate the current clubs level as anything special. I think this year champion will be the less impressive side in a long long time.
I think we could have made CL Quarters and maybe Semi depending on the draw.
I think we could currently beat Porto, Liverpoo, Dortmund. We would give Real Madrid a game I think but PSG, Bayern, City and Liverpool (fully fit) are still a long way ahead of us I think. City and Bayern are incredibly strong, not only with the players they have but the way they are coached and their in game tactics. I would personally have this City team as stronger than the last 5 or so years' winners.
If you just look at the players then the following IMO are "world class" (top 2/3 in their position in the world). For us I think we have Shaw and Fernandes (Pogba on his day)
City: Dias, Cancelo, Gundogan, KdB, Foden(only this season),Mahrez
PSG: Navas, Marquinhos, Verratti, Neymar, Di Maria, Mbappe
Bayern: Neuer,Kimmich, Goretzka, Muller, Lewa
Liverpool: Allison, VVD, Fabinho, Salah, Robertson

We're a fair way away from them. I'm not saying we can't get there.
Rashford could improve by 5 or so goals next season and be a really high quality consistent performer for us
Henderson looks really solid to me and also compliments Maguire's style as he can sweep in behind. He could become very important
Maguire you might find this funny but I think with the right partner Maguire will begin to look like a very high defender. Most of his "clumsiness" comes from him knowing his other CB doesn't have the pace to cover him.
Greenwood I genuinely believe he will be up their with Foden as the top England players for the next 10 years. He, like Foden did though, needs time to find his feet at this level.
 

VorZakone

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I didn't say that we were worse and it wasn't the question. He asked whether anyone else thought that we could be up there challenging for the CL? And my answer is no, because we were in the competition and didn't.
You don't think if Utd didn't shat the bed in Istanbul that the team could have gone all the way to the final?
 

SinNombre

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But that's irrelevant, in cups there are no ifs or buts, you do it or you don't.
It is a cup, bad days happen.

League is always a much better indicator of progress.

And we have shown we are not far off City and will finish ahead of Chelsea two seasons running.
 

RedDevilCanuck

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Ole has done a decent job.

Getting knocked out of Champions league was a horrible.

Ole has not given our youth a look in while running Rashford into the ground, relying on Bruno to not get hurt and inexplicably not playing a 40 million pound continental player in DVB.

On paper the 2nd best squad is second best in the league though Chelsea are looking more dangerous going than United.
Ole to his credit seems to have a plan now and seems to have instilled some togetherness and create a good atmosphere for the players.

Ole is not doing an excellent job. Ole is also not doing a terrible job. The stability seems to be creating progress but we are a few players away from really being where we should be .

As it stands Ole doesn't have the tactics or motivation to get this side to consistently beat West Brom, Burnely, crystal Palace type teams. That's how you win the Premier League. Smash those teams, rotate well and freshen things up for the big games and Europe.
 

JPRouve

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You don't think if Utd didn't shat the bed in Istanbul that the team could have gone all the way to the final?
I think that United shat the bed in Istanbul and therefore it's easy to imagine the club doing it against other opponents in the CL.
 

SinNombre

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Yes. But that’s not the point you responded to. Which was an observation that - despite crashing out early - there’s not much between United and this season’s top CL teams in terms of quality.

I honestly don’t know how well we’d have done in the knock-out stages but we do have a good record against this season’s finalists. And I don’t think an off night in Istanbul changes that.
There isn’t.

RM, Chelsea are both about our level and it is testimony to the good work done in the last couple of years.

The Caf really likes to discredit anything good done by Ole and the staff.
 

JPRouve

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It is a cup, bad days happen.

League is always a much better indicator of progress.

And we have shown we are not far off City and will finish ahead of Chelsea two seasons running.
I agree with that but that wasn't the question. And it has nothing to do with Ole or the idea that we haven't improved.
 

VorZakone

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I think that United shat the bed in Istanbul and therefore it's easy to imagine the club doing it against other opponents in the CL.
Perhaps but I think it was just a terrible off-day. Fine margins and all that.

I think Utd could have also beat Atletico, Porto and this Real side.
 
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Perhaps but I think it was just a terrible off-day. Fine margins and all that.

I think Utd could have also beat Atletico, Porto and this Real side.
we have matched City this season, are second in the PL, beat PSG - as you say fine margins, and that United were somewhat inconsistent in the first half of the season. More than fair chance of beating any team in Europe.
 

JPRouve

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Perhaps but I think it was just a terrible off-day. Fine margins and all that.

I think Utd could have also beat Atletico, Porto and this Real side.
It was not an off-day, we lost 3 games in the group stage. Look I'm not even negative about where we are today, I'm optimistic about the future but I can't really look back and change the past.
 

SAFMUTD

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The two best teams of the Champions League are in the final, both are top teams right now, saying the champion will the least impressive side in a long long time sounds like a bitter post to me.
Not saying they don't deserve it, but this year Bayern faced injuries in a crucial time, Barca, Real, Juve, Liverpool and PSG are not what they once we're.

Other years we've had top teams at their best, this year the only one seems to be City and they're not even their best version.
 

Zehner

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Strange thread title. I mean, this isn't even a bold claim to begin with, is it?

United is having a good season after all which can't be said for all the other elite clubs. Some of them might rank before United if you ignore form but then it would still be difficult to find seven teams with more quality.

Personally, I'd have City, Bayern and Liverpool ahead of them. Chelsea, too, in general but it's still somewhat early days under Tuchel. After that it's quite open since every elite team has some significant issues - mostly squad balance and/or subpar coaching.
 

ivaldo

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As it stands Ole doesn't have the tactics or motivation to get this side to consistently beat West Brom, Burnely, crystal Palace type teams. That's how you win the Premier League. Smash those teams, rotate well and freshen things up for the big games and Europe.
No, the way you win the league is by winning 15 games on the bounce (21 in all competitions). That and have a squad with basically 2 starting XIs capable of winning the league. Comes in handy, particularly when the season has been frenetic as it is.
 
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mu4c_20le

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we have matched City this season, are second in the PL, beat PSG - as you say fine margins, and that United were somewhat inconsistent in the first half of the season. More than fair chance of beating any team in Europe.
We can beat anyone yes, but winning the CL takes consistency and a bit of luck, the former being our biggest weakness. We also struggled a bit against Leipzig, twice. We didn't exactly walk the group only to falter in Turkey.
 

Kentonio

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We can beat anyone yes, but winning the CL takes consistency and a bit of luck, the former being our biggest weakness. We also struggled a bit against Leipzig, twice. We didn't exactly walk the group only to falter in Turkey.
It takes more than consistency and luck, it also takes mental strength and resilience. Real won so much because walking out on the pitch they already thought they were winners. Chelsea won in 2012 because despite being a shadow of their former glory as a team, they were a team who had won a lot and were willing to fight until the last gasps.

The question for United is going to be whether Ole can install that winning mentality into the team. Because coming close and failing over and over would just make you a better Spurs. He really needs to win something next year, even if its just a cup.
 

Strelok

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Does anyone else has the feeling we could be up there challenging in the UCL?

I don't know if it's just me but I don't rate the current clubs level as anything special. I think this year champion will be the less impressive side in a long long time.
Me, the fact that Chelsea made the final proves that we could have too, with a bit of luck and better mental strength of the players.

Tbh I'm still very angry about our loss against that Turkey team. We were too over confident but that's a good lesson for our players who most of them are still very young or inexperienced at this level.

You think about that and you think about our performance against PSG a couple years ago and you'd realise how far we've progressed.

Even in the league, in a normal season like under SAF era we'd be at least in the title race I think. With the form City and Liverpool have displayed in the last years tbh I don't think even SAF could beat them. We were the dominant force in the league back then but still we won the league most of the time quite narrowly and not with 100ish points like City or Liverpool recently, only around 8x points was quite enough.

Ole has done a fantastic job so far and imo we're quite close from comming back, which itself was an incredible achievement especially under the current circumstances. But he still needs a lot of support from our board (transfers) and our players (big match mentality) to complete the journey.
 

cyberman

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I think we are top 5 and building imo. We have clearly left a deep CL run on the table this year.
 

Rojofiam

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I think we are top 5 and building imo. We have clearly left a deep CL run on the table this year.
Exactly. There aren't 6 teams better than us. People disagreeing with us being top 7 at least are deluded.
 

Wolf1992

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How can a team that got eliminated in group stage by a turkish team(who is 15th in the turkish league) be top 7 in Europe?

There is no excuse for losing to a total unknown turkish team who wasn't even Galatasaray,Besiktas, or Fenerbahce...in an empty stadium.
 

flappyjay

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It's true even if some people think it's cringe. The premier is a very tough league. Two pl teams in the ucl final, at the end of today it could be another all pl final in the Europa. Just 3 years ago it was spurs vs Liverpool in the cl and Chelsea vs arsenal in the Europa. It's easy to drop out of cl places in this league just look at Liverpool they could miss out.
 

giorno

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You don't think if Utd didn't shat the bed in Istanbul that the team could have gone all the way to the final?
Sure. If you were lucky. But then again, Porto could have made it to the final too, if they were lucky. It's a cup
 

cyberman

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Sure. If you were lucky. But then again, Porto could have made it to the final too, if they were lucky. It's a cup
Which is why using the CL as any kind of barometer is a useless exercise.
 

giorno

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Which is why using the CL as any kind of barometer is a useless exercise.
Not useless, just needs a close look on a case by case basis

League is certainly a better barometer, though it's based on a different type of strenght.

Consistency vs peak performance
 

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Sure. If you were lucky. But then again, Porto could have made it to the final too, if they were lucky. It's a cup
No offense to Porto but that would be some hell of luck.

To make it to a CL final, of course you'd need luck, but you'd need to be strong enough as well.

Is Chelsea better than Porto? I think yes, they'd beat Porto like 7/10 times in a knockout round. But Chelsea and United? I don't think Chelsea is stronger than us.
 

cyberman

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Not useless, just needs a close look on a case by case basis

League is certainly a better barometer, though it's based on a different type of strenght.

Consistency vs peak performance
I fully agree about the league but when 4 different English sides reach a CL final in 3 years, its honestly foolhardy to rule out any top 4 side from taking a run at it in the future. We could have 8 different EPL managers reach European finals in 3 years if Arsenal wins tonight, its staggering.
I think the CL format hides how far out in front English sides are and this Swiss style makeover will expose it when it kicks in (if i understand it correctly)
 

giorno

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No offense to Porto but that would be some hell of luck.

To make it to a CL final, of course you'd need luck, but you'd need to be strong enough as well.

Is Chelsea better than Porto? I think yes, they'd beat Porto like 7/10 times in a knockout round. But Chelsea and United? I don't think Chelsea is stronger than us.
Play them while missing bruno fernandes, pogba and rashford, and i'm pretty sure they'd be stronger than you

It's a cup. What matters is who is better that week, not in general
I fully agree about the league but when 4 different English sides reach a CL final in 3 years, its honestly foolhardy to rule out any top 4 side from taking a run at it in the future. We could have 8 different EPL managers reach European finals in 3 years if Arsenal wins tonight, its staggering.
I think the CL format hides how far out in front English sides are and this Swiss style makeover will expose it when it kicks in (if i understand it correctly)
Entirely possible. Swiss style is a few years away though
 

tomaldinho1

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This is a bit of an insecure RAWK es que thread. Doesn’t matter if you are Ole in or out, the biggest optimist or pessimist about United, I hope everyone on here accepts it’s all about getting back to challenging for the PL and going deep in the CL. I couldn’t care less if we’re ranked #1 or #15.