United Hour - Fortress Old Trafford

Rood

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Colm @Duafc , @Raees and I evaluate United's first home win of the season.
It was a drab affair, our opponents West Brom should rightly feel aggrieved with a VAR decision or two and we needed yet another (retaken) penalty to make the difference but we are happy enough with the three points.

We then debate:
- Martial v Cavani
- VAR v reality
- Pogba v Pogba (club versus country)

before looking ahead to our return fixture with Istanbul Basaksehir and our upcoming 'top four six-pointer' against Southampton.


 

Raees

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I think no one wanted to relive that performance!
 

slyadams

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I found the discussion on 'deliberate' handball interesting. I always thought that "deliberate" didn't specifically mean "he meant to move his hand to the exact position the ball is going", but rather "he did something where he reasonably thought he might handle it". For example, if I have my back to the ball but I'm waving my hands above my head like a madman and the ball hits it, even though I don't know where the ball was going, it was deliberate because I knew that waving my hands like that, there was a reasonable chance the ball would hit them.

To me, the handball we got at the weekend is a handball under any recent interpretation of the law. He wasn't super close to the ball, he jumped and raised his hands and the ball hit them.
 

Annihilate Now!

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I found the discussion on 'deliberate' handball interesting. I always thought that "deliberate" didn't specifically mean "he meant to move his hand to the exact position the ball is going", but rather "he did something where he reasonably thought he might handle it". For example, if I have my back to the ball but I'm waving my hands above my head like a madman and the ball hits it, even though I don't know where the ball was going, it was deliberate because I knew that waving my hands like that, there was a reasonable chance the ball would hit them.

To me, the handball we got at the weekend is a handball under any recent interpretation of the law. He wasn't super close to the ball, he jumped and raised his hands and the ball hit them.
Yeah agree.. the word "deliberate" even though in the rules was a bit of a misnomer, as it was never treated like that - but as how you've described it.

I personally think all handballs in the box should be IDFK's (unless they deny a clear goal scoring opportunity)... as really the punishment of a penalty for most of these new VAR handballs really doesn't fit the crime.
 

Tom Cato

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Would people feel differently about the result if Martial and Rashford were able to put the ball in open net?
 

Duafc

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Would people feel differently about the result if Martial and Rashford were able to put the ball in open net?
Undoubtedly, in the same way I’d feel differently if they were correctly awarded their pen and we lost/drew.

The lack of chance conversion is hugely valid but imo we still aren’t playing consistently good attacking football.

Though it is still broadly better than many other recent seasons!
 

Alock1

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Undoubtedly, in the same way I’d feel differently if they were correctly awarded their pen and we lost/drew.

The lack of chance conversion is hugely valid but imo we still aren’t playing consistently good attacking football.

Though it is still broadly better than many other recent seasons!
Is it though?

I think we (not me, but most people) say that at the start of every season. I know that Nik did last year.

Remember 4-0 FC under Mourinho?
 

Duafc

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Is it though?

I think we (not me, but most people) say that at the start of every season. I know that Nik did last year.

Remember 4-0 FC under Mourinho?
I think the football is, if only barely. The frustrations are largely similar (rw, inconsistent) however we are competitively in the CL now and I do think Bruno/Maguire make a quantifiable positive difference to this squad vs. previous ones.

More broadly the squad’s general personality and football is one that I’m much more fond of than others post Fergie - though that is a low bar indeed.
 

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Fair play to you lads for managing to get an hours discussion about the game on Saturday :lol: but as usual, good pod and great turnaround.

I was still riding a week long high from the Scotland victory over Serbia and for me it was a very worthwhile international break! Non Man United related, it was easily one of the best feelings I've had in sport, seeing my team make a major finals for the first time since I was 7 years old. Brilliant.

Few thoughts from the game on Saturday. West Brom certainly had a right to feel aggrieved in my opinion as any time I see the replay from the Bruno tackle I think it is definitely a penalty, and then additionally ours shouldn't have been given as it was a foul by Fred right before Mata receives the ball. It is a handball though so can understand exactly why it was given. I was also impressed with the young lad Gallagher on loan from Chelsea, had lots of endeavour and looked to get on the front foot so I thought he was good.

VAR - it's starting to get out of hand now. I think it needs to mirror rugby in two ways.
First, when there is a VAR review I think we should be able to hear exactly what the issue is. The transparency would help a great deal.
Secondly, leave all the power with the ref. If a try is scored in rugby and the referee has no complaints, the TMO doesn't interfere at all. However, if the ref has a doubt in his mind he will ask a very specifc question of the TMO, such as 'Is there ANY reason I cannot award this try?' so offside, foul play, grounding of the ball, any forward passes would be quickly checked. Or he could say 'I am happy to award a try, please could you check the grounding of the ball?' and that's all the TMO will check. The only way the TMO might get involved without the ref asking a question is if there is serious foul play on the pitch, such as an opponent being struck.
So, what should happen IMO is for the ref to have total and final say for most things, and if he is unsure then he asks the VAR to clear it up. VAR should only get involved without being prompted for serious foul play (like Pepe the other night) or offsides (as that will absolutely not change).

Handballs really are ridiculous now. The only way to even remotely try and control it after the recent changes would be just to award a penalty whenever a hand is struck in the box. It's absolutely not fair and is seriously punishing defenders but the laws are a joke at the moment.
 

2 man midfield

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Kingmaker - brilliant way to describe Kante. Great pod as per usual lads.
 

Rood

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I found the discussion on 'deliberate' handball interesting. I always thought that "deliberate" didn't specifically mean "he meant to move his hand to the exact position the ball is going", but rather "he did something where he reasonably thought he might handle it". For example, if I have my back to the ball but I'm waving my hands above my head like a madman and the ball hits it, even though I don't know where the ball was going, it was deliberate because I knew that waving my hands like that, there was a reasonable chance the ball would hit them.

To me, the handball we got at the weekend is a handball under any recent interpretation of the law. He wasn't super close to the ball, he jumped and raised his hands and the ball hit them.
I get your point but in this case the defender doesnt have his hands above his head so I dont think that would given as handball 10 years ago as hes facing away and his hands are not in an unnatural position, definitely debatable anyway - Hoddle was on my commentary and said he didnt think it was a pen, he obviously doesnt know the new rules though!

The big issue now is that there is big confusion about what the rules even are, the whole idea about 'deliberate' has slowly been taken away - last season the focus was whether the hand/arm position had made the body ‘unnaturally bigger’ at the time of contact. This season they changed it again with a focus on which part of the arm is a problem: https://www.premierleague.com/news/1820123#:~:text=From the 2020/21 season,the bottom of the armpit".
 

slyadams

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I get your point but in this case the defender doesnt have his hands above his head so I dont think that would given as handball 10 years ago as hes facing away and his hands are not in an unnatural position, definitely debatable anyway - Hoddle was on my commentary and said he didnt think it was a pen, he obviously doesnt know the new rules though!

The big issue now is that there is big confusion about what the rules even are, the whole idea about 'deliberate' has slowly been taken away - last season the focus was whether the hand/arm position had made the body ‘unnaturally bigger’ at the time of contact. This season they changed it again with a focus on which part of the arm is a problem: https://www.premierleague.com/news/1820123#:~:text=From the 2020/21 season,the bottom of the armpit".
Agreed, as it stands right now the problem is they've changed the rule/interpretation so often people actually in the game don't understand it, let alone everyone else. As mentioned above by @Annihilate Now! , the punishment for some of these really dubious calls is now getting harsh. Its actually at the point where the rules are trying to 'make the game fair' rather than publish any form of intent, which is where I think people feel its not that sporting.

Personally, I never had a problem with the handball rule as it was: explicitly deliberate or your hand being in an unnatural position such that it is implicitly deliberate, if not explicit. I don't remember anyone really having a problem with that.