United Hour podcast - Scousers steal the wheel (Liverpool defeat)

Vault Dweller

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A dark day indeed troops...Colm(@Duafc), Alex(@Alock1), Ashwin(@AR87) and Jamie(@Vault Dweller) hold a post-mortem after Manchester United's abysmal 5-0 loss to Liverpool. Is there anyway that Ole can come back from this?



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Let us know what you think of the pod troops - agree or disagree on the points made? Questions for next week?

Is there anyone left who is still Ole In? If so what reasons are there? How was it so bad on Sunday, and where do we go from here?

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Vault Dweller

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Cheers for the replies troops! Yes a bit longer than normal and certainly not an exciting episode :lol: but definitely the tone and length couldn't be helped with such a miserable performance and desperate few weeks. Saturday will be very interesting to see what kind of response we get but I'm expecting another abject outing from us.
 

telstar96

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Great episode. Agreed on most of the points made, especially about our lack of control in our style of play. We've definitely been a moments team under Ole and I'd argue we're not even close to playing the 'United Way'.

I've seen a lot of push back against world class managers coming in, as people point to Jose and LvG as examples that it wouldn't work for United (Gary Neville has said this on numerous occasions). For me both those managers were way past their prime when they came in, so it isn't fair to compare them to today's best but it got me thinking about what type of manager fans want at the club. Based on conversations I've had with others, I get the feeling United fans want a manager who's going to oversee all aspects of the club, play the 'United Way' and replicate the club culture that was there during our heyday (basically a Fergie 2.0). That's probably why Ole was particular popular these last few years. My question is, are the club and the fans are stuck in nostalgia and is it holding us back?
 

Amir

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A 90 minute podcast is fine by me, with my daily walk lasting a similar amount. Please take that into account in the future.
 

Amir

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Based on conversations I've had with others, I get the feeling United fans want a manager who's going to oversee all aspects of the club, play the 'United Way' and replicate the club culture that was there during our heyday (basically a Fergie 2.0). That's probably why Ole was particular popular these last few years. My question is, are the club and the fans are stuck in nostalgia and is it holding us back?
I'm kind of surprised that people care about the structure - or in this case, the manager being in charge of everything.

I just want us to get the football right. I don't care about the structure. I do have a view on it - that in 2021 you can't work on the old "Fergie model", so we need to adapt. But if we can find a way to do it the old way, fine. Of course, so far we haven't.

I don't think the problem is nostalgia. I think we are being ran by people who haven't a clue about football, so they don't even know what changes to implement and how. Sure, I'm sure they've tried to learn and listened to different people - but that might mean they get different views and ideas, and don't make the right decisions.

The fact that they don't have a clue is another reason why we need to make changes to the structure. Money men will always run United, it's natural with the financial beast we are, so we need other people high in the hierarchy for the football issues.
 

Vault Dweller

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Agreed on points about adapting but I don't think nostalgia is the problem. We needed to create a side of the club similar to what Bayern have done, where there is a complete football side of the club who oversee all aspects like signings, coaching, etc. If we did that and say have a director of football in place who was more mindful of things like that and having us continuing in the mould of past United teams and then a coach who worked within those parameters we would be better off. The problem is getting that in place and I don't see that happening under the current ownership.
 

WPMUFC

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When you get pre-show warning about the run time....those are the best podcasts :lol:
 

#07

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@AR87 made the key point. Personnel is not the main problem. The main problem is that the lines of our team are moving in different directions: attack forward, defence backwards, midfield gets marooned between both and opponents have so much space.

As @Duafc said: We were a good counter attacking team in previous seasons. But now Ole has decided to try and play like the dominant team it's all fallen to pieces.

In fact it's worse. We neither drop in or press high. We just do a messy mix of both, without commitment to either approach. It's destroying us. We could play the same XI that lost to Liverpool and do much better if we just had a coherent approach. However, we don't. We are a total shower.

And the frightening thing is I dunno if the coaching staff understands this. Cos we could switch to 532 and get hammered just as bad if we don't sort out if we're pressing or dropping off and how we are dealing with defensive transitions.
 

Vault Dweller

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Good points. Let's be honest, the fact that the same 11 that started the game v Atalanta start the Liverpool game shows that the coaching staff don't get it.
 

#07

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Good points. Let's be honest, the fact that the same 11 that started the game v Atalanta start the Liverpool game shows that the coaching staff don't get it.
They could have changed every player. Would have been the same result. Cos the coaching staff is insisting on this random 'pressing' that is leaving gaps all over. Even if we had the 2017 Madrid team we'd lose set up like we are. The coaching is the problem.
 

Vault Dweller

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They could have changed every player. Would have been the same result. Cos the coaching staff is insisting on this random 'pressing' that is leaving gaps all over. Even if we had the 2017 Madrid team we'd lose set up like we are. The coaching is the problem.
Agreed, and we won't get better until it changes.
 

#07

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Agreed, and we won't get better until it changes.
It's crazy how every fan can see our half baked, half press is leaving us wide open to being smashed. However, our coaches have been happy to stick with that approach.

Son and Lucas Moura must be licking their lips about how much space they're going to get on Saturday. Literally, all they gotta do is just hang about between our midfield and defence and wait for the gaps to open up. They won't even have to work if the coaches remain stubbornly wedded to their crazy, defensive structure can f off approach.
 

AR87

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It's crazy how every fan can see our half baked, half press is leaving us wide open to being smashed. However, our coaches have been happy to stick with that approach.

Son and Lucas Moura must be licking their lips about how much space they're going to get on Saturday. Literally, all they gotta do is just hang about between our midfield and defence and wait for the gaps to open up. They won't even have to work if the coaches remain stubbornly wedded to their crazy, defensive structure can f off approach.
What is really frustrating about it is we have had long stretches of being a good defensive team under Ole previously. Not saying we've been dominant, but definitely far better than this, and are setup now doesn't resemble anything at all from those stretches. It's crazy to watch.
 

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The Manscaped stuff makes me wince :nervous: but it’s a small price to pay for another excellent podcast. The standard of discourse is many levels above the YouTube “fan channels” I’ve explored.

@Amir @Vault Dweller I think I agree that nostalgia itself isn’t the problem. It doesn’t half get milked by the club’s PR though, and used as a smokescreen to hide the real issues.
 

#07

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What is really frustrating about it is we have had long stretches of being a good defensive team under Ole previously. Not saying we've been dominant, but definitely far better than this, and are setup now doesn't resemble anything at all from those stretches. It's crazy to watch.
It does my head in. And that's why, even though I love Ole, I have no sympathy with him being under pressure.

Nobody is forcing him to set the team up like this. This is a problem of his own making.

In January we went to Anfield with a gameplan. We kept it tight until deep into the second half and should have snatched it with the Pogba chance late on.

There was absolutely no reason to go away from that. None. The coaching staff consciously decided to go gung ho. The warning signs have been flashing for weeks. Yet still they just ploughed ahead. If they pay the price they have only themselves to blame.
 

Lyng

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I think Ashwin is spot on in that you cannot blame the players for this.

We don’t have a clear vision, instead we have had one vision and now it seems Ole wants a different style and vision.

The same can be said of our recruitment which is also all over the place.



Players like Maguire, Bruno, Rashford, Ronaldo, Greenwood, Shaw, McTominay all fit quite well in the style we played last season. Stand further back and defend and then play very direct on the counter.

Maguire and Shaw are quite good when asked to stand back and do “old school” defending and then run straight up the pitch on counters.

The same style fits McTominay as well which is why he was much better last season.

On the other hand, someone like Lindelöf really struggles under this kind of playstyle because he has clear arial and physical deficiencies. Someone like DvB also struggles under that kind of playstyle.

Funny enough our panic buy of Ronaldo actually fits this style as well.



But then we chase a player like Sancho, who absolutely does NOT fit this style of play.



Then this season we have tried to play more progressive, high press football where you have to anticipate the opposition and read their play to intercept and use fast passing combinations to unlock a low playing block.

I firmly believe this is the reason, more than some euro hangover, that Maguire and Shaw have been atrocious this season. They simply are not the kind of players to play in this kind of system.

Maguire and Shaw both really don’t read the play well and lack the football vision to anticipate the run of play, which is why they have been caught in no mans land so many times this season.

Maguire is also not a great passer when its not just straight down the line.

“But the where great in the Euros and last season” Absolutely. But both Southgate and Ole last year played a system where we would stand further back and hit direct counters.

Opposite from that you have Lindelöf who simply cannot play the style we used to because his aerial and physical deficiencies are laid bare. On the other hand he has been very good for us with Varane. Lindelöf is a much more intelligent player than Maguire and anticipates movement and passing much better. On the other hand Varane is excellent in the air and also anticipates play quite well, which is unsurprisingly why they have worked together really well.

This is also why Mc Tominay was much better last season. He cannot read the play which is why he seems to hide. I don’t think he actually tries to hide, but much more he is simply in the wrong place at the wrong time due to lack of understanding of the passing of play.

Its probably also why Bruno has been so hit and miss this season. His immediate tendency is always to go directly for goal, which doesn’t really work in that kind of system.



What we need is a new manager with a clear vision and sadly they will have to change our team.

Personally I hope for Ten Hag because we have players that would thrive under a more progressive, offensive and intricate system.

Players like Lindelöf, Varane, Donnie, Sancho, Lingard, Cavani and even Pogba and Fred have the ability and the footballing intelligence to play and thrive in this system.



We need a cohesive plan and style, AND line up.
 

Vault Dweller

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Thanks for all the comments troops! Glad you enjoyed the episode and are enjoying listening to us, even if the results and performances aren't there.
 

GaryLifo

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Enjoyed the podcast, but as I only listened yesterday I couldn't help wish I could travel back in time and tell you Ole isn't going anywhere yet.
 

Alock1

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Enjoyed the podcast, but as I only listened yesterday I couldn't help wish I could travel back in time and tell you Ole isn't going anywhere yet.
Its inevitable though innit.. matter of time really.