United's rebuild has not even started and won't start any time soon and here's why

Jonno

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If fenway group are stupid enough to hire moyes and we hired klopp the situation will be reversed.

Revisionism, check the threads during dalglish era and we're laughing at their board.
So the board and owners are stupid for seeking advice from the greatest and most important person this club has ever had upon his retirement? Come off it, they went with a recommendation and it backfired, you can’t blame them for trying to continue down Fergies route - hindsight is a wonderful thing.

A large chunk is down to luck. Fenway hired Dalglish, Hodgson and they were disasters, Rodgers was in the end a failure and got sacked. Klopp turned out to be an excellent appointment.

This is why in this day and age, twist until you get the right manager. We shouldn’t be afraid of sacking managers. Seems like we’re now scared of sacking Ole despite him being massively out of his depth and clueless in stopping this run of bad form.
 

Sky1981

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So the board and owners are stupid for seeking advice from the greatest and most important person this club has ever had upon his retirement? Come off it, they went with a recommendation and it backfired, you can’t blame them for trying to continue down Fergies route - hindsight is a wonderful thing.

A large chunk is down to luck. Fenway hired Dalglish, Hodgson and they were disasters, Rodgers was in the end a failure and got sacked. Klopp turned out to be an excellent appointment.

This is why in this day and age, twist until you get the right manager. We shouldn’t be afraid of sacking managers. Seems like we’re now scared of sacking Ole despite him being massively out of his depth and clueless in stopping this run of bad form.
Tbf they did what we all wanted them to do. Listening to the people that knows a thing about football. Sir alex ferguson.

Nobody, i mean nobody would disageee with making fergie the dof post his retirement. He picked moyes.

Not to discredit the great man, but it shows that the board did try that route and it turns out to be the catalyst to our downfall. Guess they're more cautious about trusting one man ever again.

To be honest bar this year we're not that bad, a few cups post fergie isnt the end of the world. We just need to keep on sacking and hiring until we find our own klopp or better our next fergie. Ole certainly isnt the one, he has 10 years of career as manager and he hardly rocks any boats. Giving him 2 or 3 more years would probably made him a better manager, but his current level is so low that even if he becomes twice the manager he is in 2 years time it's not good enough. And that's a big ask to ask him to become twice as good in 2 years
 

Bloedrood

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Liverpool's owners had no experience in football when they took over. They thought they could just apply their Red Sox experience to football, and take the money ball approach. But really ended up making a lot of mistakes early on and had to learn a lot about football. Eventually decided they wanted to hire a young visionary type manager who could create a football identity and potentially be tied to the club long term. This was I think mostly inpired by Guardiola and Barcelona at the time, but possibly also by Klopp at Dortmund. I think they tried to hire Frank de Boer first, but he wasn't ready to leave Ajax yet, so they ended up with Brendan Rodgers instead. And then later on Klopp.

So while their initial approach was naive, they learned fairly quickly and at least have some ideas about the direction of the club and seem to stick with it. Ofcourse even then there's still some luck involved.
 

Sky1981

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Liverpool's owners had no experience in football when they took over. They thought they could just apply their Red Sox experience to football, and take the money ball approach. But really ended up making a lot of mistakes early on and had to learn a lot about football. Eventually decided they wanted to hire a young visionary type manager who could create a football identity and potentially be tied to the club long term. This was I think mostly inpired by Guardiola and Barcelona at the time, but possibly also by Klopp at Dortmund. I think they tried to hire Frank de Boer first, but he wasn't ready to leave Ajax yet, so they ended up with Brendan Rodgers instead. And then later on Klopp. So while their initial approach was naive, they learned fairly quickly and at least have some ideas about the direction of the club and seem to stick with it.
In short they hire and fire till they find kloppo
 

passing-wind

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The OP does make some good points. People are too hung up on what players come in which constitutes a rebuild. The truth is Solskjaer is a joke because as soon as he was given the opportunity to take the job he didn't challenge the ownership, there was a report out at the time of his appointment that he was happy with the structure of the club. The only individual with reservations about the future was Phelan but he eventually and wrongfully folded, should have walked the moment a DOF wasn't integrated. Doesn't matter how good the players are we bring in if they aren't correctly instructed we might aswell save money and stick with Young / Matic.
 

Number4.

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They were extremely fortunate to get Klopp at the time given their dire situation (although it's probably not as grim as United right now), but what FSG did do under Klopp is learn from their previous errors, under Kenny D they signed a lot of muck and the scattergun approach of the transfer committee after the Suarez sale was an obvious disaster.

Under Klopp, FSG have listened, learned and allowed themselves to change their tactics (Signing VVD and Keeper, despite coutinho sale wouldnt have happened two years earlier) to achieve a common goal. United's biggest challenge is there is no goal and the manager has no plan of how to achieve one.

In fairness to OGS, when the owners don't really give a sh*t about results & he has no supporting structure around him, you have to ask would Klopp be doing any better? In my opinion Yes, if Klopp had taken over at United, he would have sold the owners his goal before joining, galvanising a team around him to deliver & Ed Woodward would be back signing noodle sponsors.
 

TheRedHearted

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Have to disagree that the board hasn't adjusted their approach for this rebuild. This last window was proof a rebuild was occurring and that the board didn’t change their approach considering the age of the signings.

I think there was some hope Ole would be great but the other hope is that he could steady the ship till we clear out players and then sign a world class manager in a year or two when the team is a cohesive unit with younger, faster, and more talented players.

Whether or not Ole might sink the ship is a different story and whether or not they have to adjust.

I do think the team is more attractive than it was last season with everything except midfield. If Erikson and Bruno were signed we would have a completely different story of course. Having Erikson as the experience of the team is smart considering the youth that would be surrounding him
 

Amerifan

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Basically another Glazer/Woodward thread.
You’re not wrong. There are basically three threads on caf right now:

Whining about the club
Whining about the manager
Whining about the players
 

wolvored

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Tbf they did what we all wanted them to do. Listening to the people that knows a thing about football. Sir alex ferguson.

Nobody, i mean nobody would disageee with making fergie the dof post his retirement. He picked moyes.

Not to discredit the great man, but it shows that the board did try that route and it turns out to be the catalyst to our downfall. Guess they're more cautious about trusting one man ever again.

To be honest bar this year we're not that bad, a few cups post fergie isnt the end of the world. We just need to keep on sacking and hiring until we find our own klopp or better our next fergie. Ole certainly isnt the one, he has 10 years of career as manager and he hardly rocks any boats. Giving him 2 or 3 more years would probably made him a better manager, but his current level is so low that even if he becomes twice the manager he is in 2 years time it's not good enough. And that's a big ask to ask him to become twice as good in 2 years
We have dropped from a regular title winning side to a piss poor team nowhere near challenging, so how can you say we are not bad? We are chronic.
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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You’re not wrong. There are basically three threads on caf right now:

Whining about the club
Whining about the manager
Whining about the players
And that's a surprise?

Or do you genuinely expect people to talk about anything else just now?
 

Random Task

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You’re not wrong. There are basically three threads on caf right now:

Whining about the club
Whining about the manager
Whining about the players
Which serves to highlight just how deep a hole the club have dug themselves into. The fans are not happy with the players, the manager or the owners.

Is there anything we are happy with?
 

Fosu-Mens

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Which serves to highlight just how deep a hole the club have dug themselves into. The fans are not happy with the players, the manager or the owners.

Is there anything we are happy with?
That the club is not only on a downward spiral regarding footballing matters, but also financially --> Glazers might cash in.

And some of the youngsters: Laird, Greenwood, Garner and Levitt.

And the general fanbase becoming more and more hostile towards Woodward and the owners...
 

Stepney73

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The club has still spent a lot of money. Enough to be competitive and certainly enough to not be as dreadful as we are.
Around 2013 onwards.

The penny pinching (2009-2013)is what caused us to overspend after Fergie retired.

When we sold ronaldo in 2009 that 80 million should have been topped to around 120-130 million to get at least 3 top players in to replace the likes of Ronaldo and tevez and improve the squad but the club as we all know started to replace them with average players and on top of that brought Scholes out of retirement rather than spend the money on a new player.(this is the point where the alarm bells started to ring for me).

All the above left the squad on its last legs by 2013(Fergie just squeezed out that one last title helped by adding a short term RVP).

The club should have addressed the midfeild issues around 2009-2011 then the defence in 2012-2014 and failing to do this started the decline.
Rooney should also have been shown the door in 2013.


I've said this before and I will say it again.


We didn't fix the roof when the sun was shinning.
 

Tincanalley

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Ok, so most sensible posters think the Glazers are the core problem. And their pet puppet has fecked the team with clueless egotism.

Well yes: and I agree with most of the points made by the OP. But, now what? What do we do? Do we continue to support a team owned by a toxic crew, with no prospect of redemption? Do we protest? Do we just get drunk? Do we abandon football for a spell and check out real life?
 

Tincanalley

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Around 2013 onwards.

The penny pinching (2009-2013)is what caused us to overspend after Fergie retired.

When we sold ronaldo in 2009 that 80 million should have been topped to around 120-130 million to get at least 3 top players in to replace the likes of Ronaldo and tevez and improve the squad but the club as we all know started to replace them with average players and on top of that brought Scholes out of retirement rather than spend the money on a new player.(this is the point where the alarm bells started to ring for me).

All the above left the squad on its last legs by 2013(Fergie just squeezed out that one last title helped by adding a short term RVP).

The club should have addressed the midfeild issues around 2009-2011 then the defence in 2012-2014 and failing to do this started the decline.
Rooney should also have been shown the door in 2013.

I've said this before and I will say it again.

We didn't fix the roof when the sun was shining.
Top post.
 

Denis79

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So you don’t think completing a world record signing in Maguire is an attempt to rebuild? Signing a 50m right back isn’t rebuilding? Tying down DDG to a long term deal?

Come on. The owners are sh!te, the CEO is sh!te, but they are attempting a re-build because it’s in their best interests (making themselves rich) in keeping United near the top.
I get your point but so far we appoint a manager - give him money - sack him - rinse and repeat. There has been no plan in place on how to go forward but changing managers and then throwing money at them. I don't think there's any difference this time around, if Ole fails, he'll be sacked and we very well might get a manager with a completely different philosophy of football and the rebuild restarts once again. LVG started a rebuild, then Mourinho another one, now Ole. All three managers have completely different styles of football with very different footballers in mind to make it work. I don't agree with everything the OP said but this is the third rebuild in 5 years with only one thing in common, our board. Yes it's a "rebuild" that will last as long as our manager.
 

POF

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Excuse me, but where have I said that the senior management is sustainable? I simply made my points that there is an attempted re-build and if we had a good enough manager for a long-term re-build, we would be at the top. This being despite having poor senior management and owners. I made that perfectly clear in my previous post.

Klopp re-built Liverpool, Pep Re-built City, and our club provided ample money, the platform and a title winning squad to re-build it. Problem is, the managers have been wrong.

I get the impression plenty of fans are just annoyed at us being sh!te and direct it all at the owners and CEO, when in reality, it’s been some p!ss poor decisions by the managers we’ve had.

The owners are garbage, as is the CEO, but they have provided funds and money to re-build, which has been my point throughout.
But that is exactly the point. They didn't do it alone.

City have Ferran Soriano and Txiki Begiristain and spent years building a structure to attract and retain Pep at the club. Michael Edwards is getting rave reviews for his work at Liverpool and they had the infamous "transfer committee" before that.

Players are the most important assets of a football club. They are long term assets and it's important that whoever is responsible for the playing squad has a long term outlook. Not a first team manager with an average expected tenure of less than 2 years.

The owners and CEO have provided funds but the structure at the club is so galactically stupid that it is designed to waste those funds. Appointing Pep or Klopp may make some difference but nowhere near as much as you think.

They may be attempting a rebuild but the point in the OP was that what they need to do for that rebuild to be successful hasn't happened. That point is 100% correct.
 

red thru&thru

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But that is exactly the point. They didn't do it alone.

City have Ferran Soriano and Txiki Begiristain and spent years building a structure to attract and retain Pep at the club. Michael Edwards is getting rave reviews for his work at Liverpool and they had the infamous "transfer committee" before that.

Players are the most important assets of a football club. They are long term assets and it's important that whoever is responsible for the playing squad has a long term outlook. Not a first team manager with an average expected tenure of less than 2 years.

The owners and CEO have provided funds but the structure at the club is so galactically stupid that it is designed to waste those funds. Appointing Pep or Klopp may make some difference but nowhere near as much as you think.

They may be attempting a rebuild but the point in the OP was that what they need to do for that rebuild to be successful hasn't happened. That point is 100% correct.
Very good post.

What I don't understand is, if the Glazer's have spent so much money, why are we in this position? Why didn't we get Pep? Why did we not get Klopp? We are one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world, why did we not get these managers?

And even with the managers we did get/have, why did they not go and get us a title? Why have the Glazer's allowed us to be where we are today? There is no genuine rebuild happening at all. We should not be net spending what we have. We need the correct people in charge, making the correct decisions.
 

Sky1981

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Very good post.

What I don't understand is, if the Glazer's have spent so much money, why are we in this position? Why didn't we get Pep? Why did we not get Klopp? We are one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world, why did we not get these managers?

And even with the managers we did get/have, why did they not go and get us a title? Why have the Glazer's allowed us to be where we are today? There is no genuine rebuild happening at all. We should not be net spending what we have. We need the correct people in charge, making the correct decisions.
Because that one guy we all adore chosen moyesssss
 

Class of 63

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When will we the fans know when the rebuilt has started, will there be a press release, will red flares be set off outside Old Trafford on the hour every hour till the press pick up on it, will season ticket holders and member get an email, will..........................??? ?
 

Sky1981

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Ok, so most sensible posters think the Glazers are the core problem. And their pet puppet has fecked the team with clueless egotism.

Well yes: and I agree with most of the points made by the OP. But, now what? What do we do? Do we continue to support a team owned by a toxic crew, with no prospect of redemption? Do we protest? Do we just get drunk? Do we abandon football for a spell and check out real life?
Start with showing the players that their performance is unacceptable. Them and the whole coaching staff and the board.

Stop applauding shits they served week in week out.

Manchester united bottom half of the table with the likes of lingard releasing a clothing line. Fergie got rid of tc23 and rightly so
 

ayushreddevil9

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Start with showing the players that their performance is unacceptable. Them and the whole coaching staff and the board.

Stop applauding shits they served week in week out.

Manchester united bottom half of the table with the likes of lingard releasing a clothing line. Fergie got rid of tc23 and rightly so
Jesse Lingard is gonna get a new contract soon, read somewhere.
 

PaulRich

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I agree with the OP - we're doing nothing more than pouring a load of icing sugar on a turd and hoping we come up with a wedding cake. As we all know, the rot runs a lot deeper than the first team.
 

red thru&thru

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When will we the fans know when the rebuilt has started, will there be a press release, will red flares be set off outside Old Trafford on the hour every hour till the press pick up on it, will season ticket holders and member get an email, will..........................??? ?
When they relieve Ed from his job.
 

The Boy

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Manchester united bottom half of the table with the likes of lingard releasing a clothing line. Fergie got rid of tc23 and rightly so
Manchester united 7th in the table when the likes of lingard released a clothing line. LvG got rid of tc23 and rightly so - Fixed for you to be accurate
 

Raw

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Very good post.

What I don't understand is, if the Glazer's have spent so much money, why are we in this position? Why didn't we get Pep? Why did we not get Klopp? We are one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world, why did we not get these managers?

And even with the managers we did get/have, why did they not go and get us a title? Why have the Glazer's allowed us to be where we are today? There is no genuine rebuild happening at all. We should not be net spending what we have. We need the correct people in charge, making the correct decisions.
City were planning for Pep for years and created the perfect environment for him, maybe if we planned ahead instead of giving the job to Moyes we could have got him but alas we didn't. We did try to get Klopp but Ed utterly fecked it by making us out like we're Disneyland which turned him off.

All goes down to the fact that the people making the decisions are absolutely clueless and we won't be going anywhere while they're calling the shots.
 

redshaw

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I was thinking similar when the who do we mirror thread popped up. Cast my mind back to the era of Pool buying Andy Carrol and quite a lot of poor results in the Europa.

You can have success despite the owners and the board but we're now in a sellers market and the revenues can't cover 80-90m for 5 average players yet offering 40-50m is not going to get other midtable clubs to sell.

We desperately need to recruit players before they hit 80m prices to compliment some of the big buys. It's said the scouts at Pool hounded Klopp to sign Salah. We're simply not capable of signing anyone on our own and the manager signings have nearly all been poor. I'd argue all the managers have been heavily flawed ultimately is the fault from the top.

A change of owners would help a lot overall or at least the current owners looking how other clubs are run and changing the people, building an ethos and they can hire better managers which will in turn help the club recruit better suited players by the club and manager.
 
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red thru&thru

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City were planning for Pep for years and created the perfect environment for him, maybe if we planned ahead instead of giving the job to Moyes we could have got him but alas we didn't. We did try to get Klopp but Ed utterly fecked it by making us out like we're Disneyland which turned him off.

All goes down to the fact that the people making the decisions are absolutely clueless and we won't be going anywhere while they're calling the shots.
Exactly this. It still amazes me that people in here just believe these teams just got lucky by getting them. As if there was no prior planning before getting them.

If our execs had half a brain, they'd go with a 'philosophy' and get the correct people for that philosophy.
 

mark_a

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Great OP, couldn't agree more. "Rebuilding" isn't about signings, it's about something more fundamental than that. It starts with a strategy and vision. I'd say (from the evidence) Woody & co don't have that.

Everyone knows this whether they choose to recognise it or not. People now happily talk of Fergie "changing the drinking culture" in the squad, and he would have changed much more than that. The question is how many managers / players will get thrown under the bus before people realise that the football club isn't run properly? I suppose many fans now don't remember the relative "hardship" before Fergie, which could be part of the problem. Truth is our own malaise isn't far from what happened to us last time a long standing successful manager left! Different reasons to some extent, but lack of clear succession plans and direction in both cases. But let's not forget, following a successful manager/era at a club is a very rare thing to happen! This was never going to be easy. Managerial changes are 99% sackings
 

fastwalker

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When will we the fans know when the rebuilt has started, will there be a press release, will red flares be set off outside Old Trafford on the hour every hour till the press pick up on it, will season ticket holders and member get an email, will..........................??? ?
United fans are not stupid enough to believe the propaganda machine at Old Trafford which feeds us lines and expects us to swallow them. There can be no rebuild with the Glazers in charge in my opinion and that of many United fans. They are not football people and will never put football matters above their desire to get rich off this club. For over a decade their true intentions have been masked by the incredible success that Alex Ferguson delivered. Now that Ferguson is out of the way, it is fairly clear to see that their interest in United as a football entity is tangential at best.
 

AllezLesDiables

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Very good post.

What I don't understand is, if the Glazer's have spent so much money, why are we in this position? Why didn't we get Pep? Why did we not get Klopp? We are one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world, why did we not get these managers?

And even with the managers we did get/have, why did they not go and get us a title? Why have the Glazer's allowed us to be where we are today? There is no genuine rebuild happening at all. We should not be net spending what we have. We need the correct people in charge, making the correct decisions.
Guardiola and Klopp didn’t want to come to United because they saw that the leadership was poor.

As a poster just mentioned Guardiola and Klopp would not have selected their current clubs without having Serriano and Bergestain and Edwards in place.

Managers need to be able to trust without DoFs because no manager can do all the requisite duties alone in today’s game. Each year more is added to the plate with technological advances.
 

red thru&thru

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Guardiola and Klopp didn’t want to come to United because they saw that the leadership was poor.

As a poster just mentioned Guardiola and Klopp would not have selected their current clubs without having Serriano and Bergestain and Edwards in place.

Managers need to be able to trust without DoFs because no manager can do all the requisite duties alone in today’s game. Each year more is added to the plate with technological advances.
Yep, this is the point I'm trying to prove with all these posters who reckon our current structure is fine and it's the managers fault that we're in the position we're in.
 

roonster09

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Guardiola and Klopp didn’t want to come to United because they saw that the leadership was poor.

As a poster just mentioned Guardiola and Klopp would not have selected their current clubs without having Serriano and Bergestain and Edwards in place.

Managers need to be able to trust without DoFs because no manager can do all the requisite duties alone in today’s game. Each year more is added to the plate with technological advances.
Edwards wasn't in place, he was part of the famous transfer committee that was laughed at by many. He was promoted to DoF role after Klopp was appointed IIRC.