Unpopular opinion - Daniel James is not very good

Adisa

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People had unrealistic expectations.
He's a decent player, that's all.
 

The Original

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is that true though? the modern game now has moved to a system where full backs/wing backs are the source of many teams attacking threat down the wings. Having a pacey winger to counter that and also track is a useful option to have. Certainly v the big teams that isn't an issue. One of our main problems earlier in season in breaking down teams defending deep was our lack of creativity from central mid and lack of a central striker. We've seen the changes made recently that have started to address that. You will always get certain teams who will defend deep, but to suggest most teams do that I don't see that.
So you're saying you see mid table and bottom half teams lining up to attack against top 6 teams on a regular basis?
 

TwoSheds

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So you're saying you see mid table and bottom half teams lining up to attack against top 6 teams on a regular basis?
In recent years we've had a lot of teams do that actually. The better we get the less likely they will be to try it of course, but the fact you haven't seen many try it this season could be related to the counter attacking threat in our side, to which James certainly contributes. He's young and has time to add other aspects to his game, I was certainly pleasantly surprised by his crossing this year and his shooting earlier on in the season. I doubt he's going to be a top player for us but he seems like exactly the sort of squad player Fergie would have loved to have.
 

Nikelesh Reddy

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He’s definitely a fan favourite on here and I really don’t understand why.

In most games he’s absolutely anonymous. He was again today but Ole didn’t take him off. I think the last time he did anything of note was against Sheffield United away where he got an assist. That’s two months ago.

He lacks any movement off the ball. When he receives the ball not once does he use his pace to take on a man. Why doesn’t he run down the wing? He’s turned into Antonio Valencia. Receives the ball, stops and plays a safe sideways pass.

I don’t care if he only costs £20m I judge players on whether they are good enough to play for Manchester United. He doesn’t show enough for me. The biggest defence I see for him is ‘well he puts the effort in’. So does Lingard but we all know he’s shite. You need effort and quality. When was the last time he even crossed a ball into the box?
Unlike Lingard his pace is electrifying.Hes a decent dribbler off the ball and over the course of the season,his crossing has gradually improved..Yeah,he’s probably not going to become a world class winger but he certainly has the ability to be a good,consistent PL winger....
 

SAFMUTD

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Just saw a statistic on Whoscored about Daniel James. He has the worst success rate (42.6%) in the premier league of all players to attempt 50+ dribbles.
 

RUCK4444

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Just saw a statistic on Whoscored about Daniel James. He has the worst success rate (42.6%) in the premier league of all players to attempt 50+ dribbles.
Pointless statistic unless it’s measured at exactly 50 attempted dribbles for each player.

Otherwise what if James is the type of player that attempts five times as many dribbles per game as the rest? The average needs to be measured fairly, not just every player who’s attempted ‘more than 50’
 

SAFMUTD

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Pointless statistic unless it’s measured at exactly 50 attempted dribbles for each player.

Otherwise what if James is the type of player that attempts five times as many dribbles per game as the rest? The average needs to be measured fairly, not just every player who’s attempted ‘more than 50’
hahaha what are you talking about mate. The best way to measure this is percentage, what good will it be to know James has 200 succesfull dribbles if you dont know 200 of how many?

The minimun 50 attempts is to set a minimun sample, imagine defensive players with 10-15 attempts, their percentage would be really variable. Either really high or low.

For comparison purposes Adama Traore has the highest success dribble percentage with 74.2%
 

FrankWhite

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hahaha what are you talking about mate. The best way to measure this is percentage, what good will it be to know James has 200 succesfull dribbles if you dont know 200 of how many?

The minimun 50 attempts is to set a minimun sample, imagine defensive players with 10-15 attempts, their percentage would be really variable. Either really high or low.

For comparison purposes Adama Traore has the highest success dribble percentage with 74.2%
Thank you. you've made tbe point my brain is too tired to articulate at 2am.
Funny thing about traore though, I don't exactly look at him and think "wow! We should get him" As a backup maybe? Which I guess is what James really is. He just happened to have played more than expected due to injuries and lack of options on the right wing.
I hope they use stats like these to coach players, either change your dribbling style or dribble less as that's just incredibly inefficient.
 
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hmchan

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Pointless statistic unless it’s measured at exactly 50 attempted dribbles for each player.

Otherwise what if James is the type of player that attempts five times as many dribbles per game as the rest? The average needs to be measured fairly, not just every player who’s attempted ‘more than 50’
For the bolded part, that would mean James is dribbling far too often and his decision making is poor. Percentage is an accurate indicator of the "success rate" and the statistic is fair enough for me.

Regarding the OP, the reason why James has become a fan favorite is simple. Ole keeps brainwashing us the importance of mentality over quality and people are affected. Now we only judge whether a player has a positive mentality as if his ability and performance don't matter.
 

RUCK4444

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hahaha what are you talking about mate. The best way to measure this is percentage, what good will it be to know James has 200 succesfull dribbles if you dont know 200 of how many?

The minimun 50 attempts is to set a minimun sample, imagine defensive players with 10-15 attempts, their percentage would be really variable. Either really high or low.

For comparison purposes Adama Traore has the highest success dribble percentage with 74.2%
I don’t know why it’s funny when you just proved my point in the bolded part.

The same rule goes both ways. Imagine a player who is very attack minded then compare them to somebody who is very defensive.

You need a fixed number of attempted dribbles to compare across the group.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Just saw a statistic on Whoscored about Daniel James. He has the worst success rate (42.6%) in the premier league of all players to attempt 50+ dribbles.
Such a weird statistic that clearly doesn't tell enough the story of how James played.

James is not a trick pony, he's small but quick & direct. He often being fouled a lot and won us lot of free kick which also includes in dangerous area & penalty. Being fouled and won us free kick & penalty will also decrease his dribbles success rate.
 

Luke1995

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Daniel James is a good player with potential to evolve. That's it. He's highly unlikely to be scoring 20+ goals a season or getting 10+ crosses per game in the box.

A winger with pace who can help in build-up play. At this moment, it's unknown if he can develop into a better all-around player, but certainly a better option than Lingard or Pereira to have.
 

SAFMUTD

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Such a weird statistic that clearly doesn't tell enough the story of how James played.

James is not a trick pony, he's small but quick & direct. He often being fouled a lot and won us lot of free kick which also includes in dangerous area & penalty. Being fouled and won us free kick & penalty will also decrease his dribbles success rate.
Not entirely sure but I think being fouled counts as a failed dribble.
 

Van Piorsing

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He may look as a one trick pony, but he helped a lot in beginning of the season then went bit quiet, but that's mainly because almost whole team was taking the piss on the pitch against mid-table teams.

When we finally build strong midfield block and start controlling matches more, he'll simply be able to do much more.
 

Champagne Football

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I think he'll become a really important squad player in the mold of Blomqvist, Fortune etc. James is great on the left, looks lost on the right.
A perfect back-up to Rashford.
 

SAFMUTD

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I don’t know why it’s funny when you just proved my point in the bolded part.

The same rule goes both ways. Imagine a player who is very attack minded then compare them to somebody who is very defensive.

You need a fixed number of attempted dribbles to compare across the group.
Mate, thats the way stats work. Lets compare it to pass percentage, its like you saying a midfielder with 60% success is not fair because he pass to much, and the number should be fixed to a certain number of passes, just doesnt make sense.

And most players with more than 50+ dribble attempts are attack minded, anyway your argument about Daniel James having such a poor dribble success rate because he dribbles a lot is invalid, I just look it up and he's not even on the top 50 with most attempts. He's the 69th player with most attempts.
 

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I like him but if in all honesty we get Grealish I'd prefer him as our back up left winger, never mind martial covering spaces if we get a poacher type striker too.

Definitely deserves time to improve though - but seems a bit similar to Sancho, a player who can play on both wings, is right footed, probably a bit better on the left but can play on the right too but Sancho is a different class. If Sancho and Grealish comes as well as another striker - I struggle to see where he fits unless he drops to wingback positions.
 

SAFMUTD

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And that should tell you why the success rate is 42.6%. Pointless stats that doesn't tell the whole story.
Dribbles/Take-ons
This is an attempt by a player to beat an opponent when they have possession of the ball. A successful dribble means the player beats the defender while retaining possession, unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled. Opta also collects attempted dribbles where the player overruns the ball with a heavy touch when trying to beat an opposition player.

Thats the defiition according to them. So I think being fouled doesnt count into the stat, I get your point about theoretically how many successfull dribbles were stopped by being fouled, but come on man, being the worst in the league? Its not like James is fouled in half the attempts he make.

Thats like saying a passer has poor passing stats because the receiver made a wrong movement, yeah it happens but it doesnt weight much into the overall statistic.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Dribbles/Take-ons
This is an attempt by a player to beat an opponent when they have possession of the ball. A successful dribble means the player beats the defender while retaining possession, unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled. Opta also collects attempted dribbles where the player overruns the ball with a heavy touch when trying to beat an opposition player.

Thats the defiition according to them. So I think being fouled doesnt count into the stat, I get your point about theoretically how many successfull dribbles were stopped by being fouled, but come on man, being the worst in the league? Its not like James is fouled in half the attempts he make.

Thats like saying a passer has poor passing stats because the receiver made a wrong movement, yeah it happens but it doesnt weight much into the overall statistic.
Am I missing something here?

You said "I think being fouled counts as a failed dribble." So that means it should count as unsuccessful dribble.
You also said "unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled". Being fouled is also being tackled.

All of sudden you changed it to "doesn't count into the stats". And completely different to passing, poor passing doesn't make anything in return but giving the ball away. While player didn't make enough successful dribbles because he was fouled often means the player at least won the team something in return (free kick & penalty).
 

RUCK4444

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Mate, thats the way stats work. Lets compare it to pass percentage, its like you saying a midfielder with 60% success is not fair because he pass to much, and the number should be fixed to a certain number of passes, just doesnt make sense.

And most players with more than 50+ dribble attempts are attack minded, anyway your argument about Daniel James having such a poor dribble success rate because he dribbles a lot is invalid, I just look it up and he's not even on the top 50 with most attempts. He's the 69th player with most attempts.
As others have pointed out those stats are affected by fouls etc, it’s a completely pointless stat.

And I’m not arguing that it should be an even amount of attempts because I thought Dan James was attack minded, I just believe that if you take the average of x player who has attempted 200 dribbles and compare it with player Y who has 52 dribbles it’s going to give you an absolutely pointless comparison average.
 

charlenefan

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I like him but if in all honesty we get Grealish I'd prefer him as our back up left winger, never mind martial covering spaces if we get a poacher type striker too.

Definitely deserves time to improve though - but seems a bit similar to Sancho, a player who can play on both wings, is right footed, probably a bit better on the left but can play on the right too but Sancho is a different class. If Sancho and Grealish comes as well as another striker - I struggle to see where he fits unless he drops to wingback positions.
He fulfil the role he was signed for, impact sub. The last thing tiring fullbacks will want is him running at them the last 15/20 minutes of games

The lad started the season excellently and lack of options meant he's played more games than was probably envisioned. people shouldn't be so quick to write him off after a debut season where he's clearly been burnt out for the last couple of months after what has been a massively challenging year for him on and off the pitch
 

The Original

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I don’t know why it’s funny when you just proved my point in the bolded part.

The same rule goes both ways. Imagine a player who is very attack minded then compare them to somebody who is very defensive.

You need a fixed number of attempted dribbles to compare across the group.
The volume of dribbles does not matter...Unless you are saying that dribbling ability either improves ord decreases beyond a certain number.

We can all see that young Dan is not a great dribbler, so no need debating this stat that merely tells us what we already know.
As others have pointed out those stats are affected by fouls etc, it’s a completely pointless stat.

And I’m not arguing that it should be an even amount of attempts because I thought Dan James was attack minded, I just believe that if you take the average of x player who has attempted 200 dribbles and compare it with player Y who has 52 dribbles it’s going to give you an absolutely pointless comparison average.
Nope. You clearly don't understand how averages work. Averages and other measures of central tendency are the best way to even out outliers and, in this case, reveal a player's true level.
 

SAFMUTD

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Am I missing something here?

You said "I think being fouled counts as a failed dribble." So that means it should count as unsuccessful dribble.
You also said "unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled". Being fouled is also being tackled.

All of sudden you changed it to "doesn't count into the stats". And completely different to passing, poor passing doesn't make anything in return but giving the ball away. While player didn't make enough successful dribbles because he was fouled often means the player at least won the team something in return (free kick & penalty).
I said I didnt knew if being fouled counted as a failed dribble, after research I see they dont. There’s a difference between being tackled and being fouled.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I said I didnt knew if being fouled counted as a failed dribble, after research I see they dont. There’s a difference between being tackled and being fouled.
What is this research you are talking about? Show it then.

When tackle doesn't hit the ball but the player instead and referee call it a foul, it's still a tackle. Not rocket science to know this. "Unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled". It's simple, if you dribbled the ball and being fouled due to poor tackle then it still counts.
 

SAFMUTD

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What is this research you are talking about? Show it then.

When tackle doesn't hit the ball but the player instead and referee call it a foul, it's still a tackle. Not rocket science to know this. "Unsuccessful ones are where the dribbler is tackled". It's simple, if you dribbled the ball and being fouled due to poor tackle then it still counts.
Mate is the definition I posted, thats the definition of opta, I explained this already, fouled and tackled is not the same. A tackle is when the defender disposses the ball from the attacking player.

Anyway is just a stat, if you want to believe it doesnt show anything from James then go ahead.
 

Maticmaker

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James, as others on here have mentioned is young, fast and direct and at the moment that's all he is, but that incidentally was what he was bought for. We've been crying out for this, a wide man with speed down the right, for a few seasons; however our other team/player developments mean we may not want/need that style of play in some games and only in part in others, so his current role is limited. If James can add some guile to his play (lifting his head up occasionally when on the ball would help) and variation to his runs, he can last a bit longer even if some of his speed wanes. If he doesn't, then as soon as his speed goes, so will he.
 

Adnan

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Just seen a story that he may go on loan if we sign Sancho, Thoughts?

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...n-Sancho-Borussia-Dortmund-loan-transfers/amp
There's a ESPN vid in there too with Gab Marcotti and Julien Laurens discussing James. Marcotti doesn't rate him at all and thinks we play better without him against the bad teams. Marcotti seems to be suggesting that he needs space to run into to be effective which he doesn't get against teams who defend deep..
 

sparx99

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I made a comparison (maybe earlier in this thread) that’s he’s like a new Aaron Lennon. He’ll have games where his pace terrifies a full back and he’s man of the match but the rest of the time he’s just a very average winger.

I don’t expect him to develop into much because generally his technique seems too poor for him to suddenly improve. Most players at 22-24 improve mostly through mental development not technique. They make better decisions, are more composed, less selfish and more determined.
 

el3mel

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If we sign Sancho he'll be a decent backup to come in during games or be used to rest Sancho is what should be his role in any big club.
 

RUCK4444

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I made a comparison (maybe earlier in this thread) that’s he’s like a new Aaron Lennon. He’ll have games where his pace terrifies a full back and he’s man of the match but the rest of the time he’s just a very average winger.

I don’t expect him to develop into much because generally his technique seems too poor for him to suddenly improve. Most players at 22-24 improve mostly through mental development not technique. They make better decisions, are more composed, less selfish and more determined.
So Dan can’t do the same? He was playing in the Championship not so long ago.

For a first season he’s been pretty solid. If he has a good second season (hopefully playing second fiddle to Sancho) then he will have been a good acquisition.

He is not going to be the next Giggsy just because he’s a Welsh winger, but his pace and counter attacking instincts will make him a good option especially coming off the bench against tiring fullbacks