Pretty obvious from the start what would happen with him on here. His numbers will be very good (5 goals in 6 starts is good). When he isn't scoring, he will get stick for not being the 21 year old 06/07 winger everyone has forgotten but watches highlights of on YouTube.
Unpopular opinion: Ronaldo will be a huge miss
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Inadvertently, that kind of says it all. You can't discuss Ronaldo in isolation. Do you want people to have this discussion across three different threads with all the Bruno-specific remarks in one place, Greenwood's in another and Ronaldo's here? That ironically is why United are currently playing the way they are, because we field an XI of individuals trying to just let them all do their thing, rather than each tailoring the role for the betterment of the team.
All players have trade offs, some are more extreme than others. This is the crux of what Michael Cox is saying in his article.
Ronaldo is a consistently fit centre forward who will get around a goal per 90, but for United to be successful they need to build a functional team around that reliable goalscoring. Right now we are trying to play with an elite poacher, a top class roaming #10 and two extremely attack-minded inside forwards. That is not going to work.Michael Cox said:
Simply substituting (an imaginary always fit) Cavani for Ronaldo with his superior pressing is not going to make that work either, as we have seen at the beginning of this season and the end of last. We haven't won any of the last five that Cavani started, conceding 2 goals a game on average:
- 1-1 Everton (H)
- 1-1 Villarreal (N)
- 1-1 Fulham (H)
- 2-4 Liverpool (H)
- 2-3 Roma (A)
You’re saying he has an ego?
Yes. That’s exactly why he’s getting stick.
Again, why drag other players into the discussion? There are other threads for that.
You quote Michael Cox. Read what he says:
“The extent to which he was bottom, however — pressing half as much as the next least-active player — does summarise the degree to which manager and team-mates must reshape to cope.”
That’s the point being made. Ronaldo’s extreme lack of effort creates a problem. A problem which Ole has so far been unable to solve. It’s also a problem that his replacement will inherit, assuming Ronaldo is still at the club (it will have probably got quite a bit worse by then too)
The fact that it’s just one of a long list of problems Ole has failed to solve is irrelevant to a discussion about Ronaldo in a thread started by someone who saw this problem coming and got a load of shit over his opinion.
Did you even read what the guy said???? To quote:
Ronaldos "lack of effort" clearly isn't affecting much. Cavani, who presses so much more, still doesn't affect our results as you can see by the results TMDaines has kindly sent.
I think pressing itself is a system that relies on clear coaching and tactical play, not on specific players running around like headless chickens. If Ronaldo is playing for Bayern I can assure you his stats would be a lot better. While he would never be a pressing machine, he would be a lot better. If you look at the "pressing" stat that was posted here this season, you'd notice that even Cavani is very low on the totem pole when it comes to pressing and Cavani is one of the hardest working forwards in the modern game. You have to understand that pressing is a team issue, not a player issue. Shearer explains this fairly well here:
It is not solely Ronaldo, this is a severe team issue down to the coaching. You can put Lewandowski in this team in Ronaldo's place and he'd look just as clueless. When all of your players refuse to press or just decide to run on their own while the rest watch, depending on the scenario, the problem is way deeper than a simple player.
Yes, I read what he said. You evidently didn’t read what I said. Oh well.
Possibly
Ronaldo needs chances created for him, if we're not creating anything and hoping for some individual brilliance he isn''t going to contribute. That's not down to him, if we put chances in front of him he'll score goals.
People will also go out of their way to defende Ronaldo.
You had similar discussions to this one the entire time he was at Juve. It can't just be that the moment Ronaldo arrives the managers and other players all turn to shit and Ronaldo remains free from any blame.
Every striker out there needs chances created for him and I'm not complaining about lack of goals. I'm complaining about the negative effect his extreme lack of workrate is having on our team's performances over all.
The problem isn't that his workrate is just low, it is extremely low. It is almost nonexisting. He has more than halved his record low pressing numbers from his last season with Juve, and that is a feat in it self. All his teammate gets overloaded and must cover more ground, resulting in fewer ballwinnings in good positions and being caught out of position more often. This results in us creating fewer transitions fewer chances, getting more counters against us and thant we must sit deeper in defence. The whole team suffers badly from this and it has several bad ring effects all over the pitch.
It's not just his pressing that's a problem. His hold-up play is lacking and his dribbling ability is gone due to his age. He's still an asset in the box, but I don't think it's worth building around Ronaldo. I'd rather he comes off the bench more than anything else.
[/QUOTE]It is not solely Ronaldo, this is a severe team issue down to the coaching. You can put Lewandowski in this team in Ronaldo's place and he'd look just as clueless. When all of your players refuse to press or just decide to run on their own while the rest watch, depending on the scenario, the problem is way deeper than a simple player.
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Just for your information, Ronaldo is playing at EPL right now.
For the past 6-7 seasons, all the EPL champions are high pressing team, their strikers never stop pressing, Vardy, Aguero, Firmino and Costa.
Season can be win by 1-2 points, 1-2 moment, the Maiguire first mistake was caused by high pressing too.
It is ok if u do not press or work harder, just no title to be won.
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Just for your information, Ronaldo is playing at EPL right now.
For the past 6-7 seasons, all the EPL champions are high pressing team, their strikers never stop pressing, Vardy, Aguero, Firmino and Costa.
Season can be win by 1-2 points, 1-2 moment, the Maiguire first mistake was caused by high pressing too.
It is ok if u do not press or work harder, just no title to be won.
He's not free from blame and certainly not beyond criticism.
When you have 2 or 3 players undperforming, you can then single them out and blame them. Most of our players look clueless every match, we can't string a few passes together, we still concede the same 3 goals we've conceded all last season, we have 1 win in the last 5 games...
The manager isn't good enough and until we get someone in that can get the best out of the squad, I'm not judging the players.
Hard to disagree with this. 2 completed dribbles in 7 matches for us so far pretty much sums that up (Greenwood has 16), but for me his workrate is what costs us the most.
Ronaldo is a problem but we have a manager who thinks the players will figure things out for themselves on the pitch. He doesn't try to mask the shortcomings of his players. That's why it doesn't make much difference if we start Ronaldo, Cavani and it was the same last season our strikers whoever they are are so often isolated and are barely in the game most of the time.
More running may help slightly our defensive game but it will hardly affect the overall structure of the team.
More running may help slightly our defensive game but it will hardly affect the overall structure of the team.
It isn't complicated. There are 10 outfield players and every single one of them plays a role in his the team plays, including the "number 9" who funnily enough isn't playing anything like a number 9.
If that player is a traffic cone the moment the team loses the ball, and if the same player is relatively static, then it imbalances the team.
I don't particularly disagree with what you are saying, but I do feel you are both being overly reductive. Ronaldo hasn't arrived and broken the side with his lack of pressing. He hasn't joined a well oiled functional system and stood out like a sore thumb. Low workrate when the opposition are in possession is characteristic of all our forwards, bar Edinson Cavani and Jesse Lingard. One of these lads struggles to start even half of our matches, the other was sent out on loan last season. All of the others - Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and Sancho- are poor on these metrics relative to other players at other sides. You can substitute any of those guys in for Ronaldo and we'd have the same outcome.
I think people are overlooking that our results were spotty and indifferent in the final part of last season too. One thing I highlighted previously is that we haven't won any of the last 5 matches that Cavani has started stretching all the way back to April for instance. It is been apparent for a long time that sides progress down the field against United far too easily, and it is so much more obvious watching games in person again with a vertical perspective from the Streford End. Just replacing Ronaldo in the XI is not going to fix these issues.
Rather than just bemoaning Ronaldo's lack of pressing, a solution needs to be found to make Manchester United a better side, whether the man implementing it is Ole or someone else. I posted my collected thoughts here yesterday. Personally, I would want to maximise the goals that Ronaldo can offer and adjust the role of Bruno and my wingers, making different demands from them. If Sancho and Greenwood can't do what I need from them, then Lingard will be a regular starter. You want pressing from your forwards and attacking mids? Now here's a player who presses highly compared to his peers. If I going to accommodate one player with lower workrate out of possession, then it will be my centre forward and not my left or right winger.
Now, you can argue that Ronaldo doesn't offer enough out of possession to justify his goals, but what's your solution with this squad of players? It's a big call to not select him, but still indulge Sancho, Greenwood and Rashford's lack of workrate without the ball. Last season doesn't offer much to suggest that we were actually better off without Ronaldo.
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Blaming it all on a player we’ve had for a few weeks when we’ve had these issues for a long time is just plain wrong.
A straw man when someone has nothing to rebut with is rather predictable.
Not a straw man when you said " You realize that we came second last season without him and have looked much more imbalanced and disjointed since he came, and have taken a step back since he came ", is it.
It's one thing to say Ronaldo is a liability when we don't have the ball - everyone knows that, and it was true even when he was 25 and lightning-fast. It's another to say we look noticeably more imbalanced/disjointed with him. I honestly can't see much of a difference, our forwards are extremely passive off the ball and the pressing system is ... well, it's not there at all.
See below:
A better-worded explanation of what a lot of people have said on this point.
I'm not seeing "all the problems of the club" anywhere? Not to speak for the other poster but I'm under the impression we're talking about our forwards' work-rate out of possession here.
Edit: huh, looks like Ladron deleted that last post. Must have gone back looking for the straw-man and not found one
Edit: huh, looks like Ladron deleted that last post. Must have gone back looking for the straw-man and not found one
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Sure thing, I can just see the whole picture, you stick with your ideas though, I don’t really care.
Eerily like the last season or two at Juve.
The biggest worry is we bought a player who left Juve because he was benched. Now we have a player who is seemingly undroppable but is a passenger for 90% of the game. Yes he scores goals but we are leaking goals and need 10 outfield players that will work to help stop the rot.
Does anyone else feel Solskjaer had zero interest in his signing and he was basically signed above his head?
No? The dude was literally giddy in the press conference the morning we signed him. If Ole isn't involved in transfers then he does nothing.
But yeah, adding Ronaldo does create new problems, but it also solves some existing ones and gives more opportunities. The issue is his workrate at times and pressing. A useful manager would adjust the squad and tactics to make use of what Ronaldo is good at and alleviate his weaknesses. The issue is compounded with Bruno being a lost sheep. Ronaldo/Pogba/Greenwood/Bruno cannot all be in the same functioning 11 unless 2 or 3 of them change how they play.
My big worry is not Ronaldo's quality (although this general play has been awful) but that the modernisation of our football football many of us have been yearning for will be tough with players who won't press or work well into a machine of a team. So hopefully the next big potential manager isn't turned off by the idea of his ideas being hard to implement with the likes of Ronaldo and Pogba. The managers who have a strong philosophy tend not to compromise on it.
But then again Pep wanted to sign Ronaldo so what do I know. Maybe you can be that sort of team with the current Ronaldo too with the others making up for those flaws and benefitting from his goalscorering prowess.
I'm 100% convince that if we get a good manager that knows how to play football and coach his side well, Ronaldo would be the same Ronaldo we all know. Right now Ole simply has zero idea how to use Ronaldo, nor does he have any idea how to use this team, as a matter of fact. First off, I told this in previous thread, but he doesn't use Ronaldo the way Ronaldo excelled. He uses him as a simple poacher. That's not the kind of role Ronaldo ever practiced. Ronaldo has never been a full striker, he has always occupied the role of a winger-forward kind of hybrid that seeks to exploit the space and cooperate with another actual striker (Benzema, Higuain, Chiesa). Typically said striker would be a hard worker. It's funny because we have such a striker in our team, but instead of Ole using them both on the field, he chooses one or the other. It's ridiculous.
Ronaldo is also suffering from the fact that our side is simply not playing well as a team or anything resembling a team. Nobody in this team even appears to know what they're supposed to do or how they should do it. Greenwood does his own thing, Bruno as well, Pogba just strolls around, not sure what he should do, Sancho still thinks he is playing in a team with a system where players actually run and try to pass to each other, Fred... well, I don't even want to talk about him. This leaves Ronaldo stranded on top, basically feeding on scraps. Virtually every single goal he's scored this season was due to his massive individual skill and nothing else. And while that is all well and good, who doesn't want to have a striker that can score from the tiniest of chances, at the end of the day without actual service, without any actual attacking plan - we're going nowhere. Because sometimes Ronaldo might score 1 or 2 goals from 3 chances, but a lot of times he won't. In contrast, City create like 10 chances per game on average and in that team he'd probably score almost every match precisely because he has been given a lot of opportunities to do so.
It doesn't matter who you put in Ronaldo's place at the moment, they'll fail. This is also I can't stand the talk of a new DM or RB. You think any of this is going to fix our deep seethed issues? Absolutely not. Our squad might not be prime Madrid or Barcelona, but it is certainly good enough to trounce 99% of the teams at the moment even with the McFred duo. We simply have a coaching staff and a manager that have no idea how to utilize these players correctly, let alone have a philosophy on what kind of football they'd like to be played. The fact that Ole has conceded twice the amount of goals Jose has in the same number of games with a defence of Maguire/AWB/Shaw and now Varane speaks volumes. This is not a man that knows how to organize a team, whether it'd be defence, midfield or attack. Jose had defence of Smalling-Baily-Valencia-Young and achieved more with it. Let that sink in.
So it doesn't matter if tomorrow we buy Lewandowski or Haaland and put them upfront , at the end of the day both of these players would have to feed from scraps because the team connection is just not there and that isn't down to one or two or even three, four, five players. It's down to the manager, the most important position in football by far.
Ronaldo is also suffering from the fact that our side is simply not playing well as a team or anything resembling a team. Nobody in this team even appears to know what they're supposed to do or how they should do it. Greenwood does his own thing, Bruno as well, Pogba just strolls around, not sure what he should do, Sancho still thinks he is playing in a team with a system where players actually run and try to pass to each other, Fred... well, I don't even want to talk about him. This leaves Ronaldo stranded on top, basically feeding on scraps. Virtually every single goal he's scored this season was due to his massive individual skill and nothing else. And while that is all well and good, who doesn't want to have a striker that can score from the tiniest of chances, at the end of the day without actual service, without any actual attacking plan - we're going nowhere. Because sometimes Ronaldo might score 1 or 2 goals from 3 chances, but a lot of times he won't. In contrast, City create like 10 chances per game on average and in that team he'd probably score almost every match precisely because he has been given a lot of opportunities to do so.
It doesn't matter who you put in Ronaldo's place at the moment, they'll fail. This is also I can't stand the talk of a new DM or RB. You think any of this is going to fix our deep seethed issues? Absolutely not. Our squad might not be prime Madrid or Barcelona, but it is certainly good enough to trounce 99% of the teams at the moment even with the McFred duo. We simply have a coaching staff and a manager that have no idea how to utilize these players correctly, let alone have a philosophy on what kind of football they'd like to be played. The fact that Ole has conceded twice the amount of goals Jose has in the same number of games with a defence of Maguire/AWB/Shaw and now Varane speaks volumes. This is not a man that knows how to organize a team, whether it'd be defence, midfield or attack. Jose had defence of Smalling-Baily-Valencia-Young and achieved more with it. Let that sink in.
So it doesn't matter if tomorrow we buy Lewandowski or Haaland and put them upfront , at the end of the day both of these players would have to feed from scraps because the team connection is just not there and that isn't down to one or two or even three, four, five players. It's down to the manager, the most important position in football by far.
This is what I think is holding us back though.
He is being played as a full striker.
Do you really think its worth getting the best out of a 36 year old player who is an in the box player?
We can't just play an extra player on the pitch with 12 men can we?
Are you happy with Greenwood on the bench? He has scored just as much as goals for us as Ronaldo this season arguably with no need for assistance in the team like Ronaldo needs at all. Rashford is like the left hand sided version of him who scores within his first 10 mins back from injury - making a run that Ronaldo just simply cannot make anymore.
Then there is Cavani who has better hold up play, better link up play and better pressing play. I'd say that he can actually play the CF role by himself because as you said about Ronaldo not being a full striker, Cavani is more resembling of one.
Sancho and Diallo are not main men yet but maybe they would be better with faster players just as much as much as a more full striker than Ronaldo - who knows.
The thing with Ronaldo is that I do think he is good enough to play for United - but I do not think he is at that level anymore where he starts every game for you and you build your whole team to get the best out of him.
He comes with an ego where he cannot sit in the bench, when he does he has to come on to the pitch and to some the difference in the team do develop even if every single mistake is not his. When things don't go his way - he walks off the pitch like he was amazing and everything and everyone else was crap.
You know, if he himself was like Cavani last season who would start some matches for us when needed, sit on the bench when required and rotate then that would be good but it just won't happen.
Cavani never felt like he needed the whole squad built around his strengths and weaknesses but now with Ronaldo we kind of do.
After the fairy tale game vs Newcastle, the only period we played OK would be the 60 mins vs Everton before Ronaldo came on. Coincidence ?
Hard truth is, Bruno and Ronaldo are almost identical, they run behind the same space, can't dribble or play wide, can't be the post man, occupy all the chances of final pass or shoot. We can only afford one of this type.
If Ronaldo is undroppable , then Bruno has to sacrifice to stay back as a MC/AMC role focusing on playmaking, covering ground and possession game, instead of a false No.9 trying to get goal/assist .
I'm sure Ronaldo can press better than Martial as long as coached to do so. We got 2nd last season with Martial as the main striker and Cavani as the impact sub , with Ronaldo replacing Martial we could do only better. The key fine-tune should be asking Bruno to win us the midfield , and leave goal/assist to Ronaldo.
Hard truth is, Bruno and Ronaldo are almost identical, they run behind the same space, can't dribble or play wide, can't be the post man, occupy all the chances of final pass or shoot. We can only afford one of this type.
If Ronaldo is undroppable , then Bruno has to sacrifice to stay back as a MC/AMC role focusing on playmaking, covering ground and possession game, instead of a false No.9 trying to get goal/assist .
I'm sure Ronaldo can press better than Martial as long as coached to do so. We got 2nd last season with Martial as the main striker and Cavani as the impact sub , with Ronaldo replacing Martial we could do only better. The key fine-tune should be asking Bruno to win us the midfield , and leave goal/assist to Ronaldo.
Aka our manager needs to wise up and play to our strengths instead of just playing whatever looks good on paper.
Not Ole, hence is obsession with playing certain players all the time.
Talking about Ronaldo, I wasn't keen to have him back. Yes it is a nice, romantic story, but overall, I don't think it was the right call.
I'm a fan because I knew Ronaldo wouldn't be able to tolerate the way we play under Ole and it was one of the few ways that the club would actually do something about Ole.
If we never got Ronaldo, the story would be how Ole hasn't been backed enough and he should be given more time to build his own team despite him saying it was a 3 years rebuilding process nearly 3 years ago.
The argument that Ole has not been backed never had any truth in it. He's been backed immensely, it is just another cheap excuse for his failing.
We have a top 3 squad, no doubt, but look what Ole makes out of that - it is like you put a blind old woman in a Ferrari
Tell that to his fanboys and friends in the media. Ole's a hypocrite and a fraud, can't believe he's one of the best paid manager in the world
We were getting overrun in games before Ronaldo played for us. The Wolves game is the worst this season and they ran through our midfield at will. I do agree that Bruno should be playing deeper in midfield, but I can't blame Ronaldo for the things we're seeing. I've been extremely impressed with Cavani's pressing, but the performances last season were no better with him playing.
Ronaldo is 36 years old and doesn't press. His game is not changing at this point. We knew what we were getting with him. It's up the coaching staff to make it work.
I don't see the point of examining pressing stats individually. If the team doesn't press as a coordinated whole, that stat is useless. Ronaldo will still pull some tricks and win games for us. If he's the only one not pressing enough in a well coordinated team, this wouldn't be a problem at all.
At his age, Ronaldo can't just keep running after the ball like a headless chicken the whole game, specially if this is not done as a team. He has to optmize his use of his energy, so that he will be where he needs to be, to score for us. Just watch Bruno Fernandes, who runs marathons every game. Then everyone complains that he's tired and starts to make worse deicisions in the field.
We've seen very recent displays of Ronaldo's physical prowess (running box to box at 32km/h, for example). He just can't do it several times in the same match. We've had successful forwards who won champinships with us and that weren't very pressing... We were just a better team, not a collection of "stars".
Van de Beek was a mistake, we still sorely need a quality center midfielder. I would say a defensive midfielder, that is good at defending and recovering balls, but know what to do with it after he gets it (like Sporting's Palhinha). Someone that would allow Pogba and Bruno do their thing without leaving the midfield a highway for the adversary. Sancho is a good player, but we already have good players where he plays. That money should have been spent on the midfielder.
All this to say that Ronaldo can be part of the solution. You'll just get disapointed if you expect him to be THE solution.
At his age, Ronaldo can't just keep running after the ball like a headless chicken the whole game, specially if this is not done as a team. He has to optmize his use of his energy, so that he will be where he needs to be, to score for us. Just watch Bruno Fernandes, who runs marathons every game. Then everyone complains that he's tired and starts to make worse deicisions in the field.
We've seen very recent displays of Ronaldo's physical prowess (running box to box at 32km/h, for example). He just can't do it several times in the same match. We've had successful forwards who won champinships with us and that weren't very pressing... We were just a better team, not a collection of "stars".
Van de Beek was a mistake, we still sorely need a quality center midfielder. I would say a defensive midfielder, that is good at defending and recovering balls, but know what to do with it after he gets it (like Sporting's Palhinha). Someone that would allow Pogba and Bruno do their thing without leaving the midfield a highway for the adversary. Sancho is a good player, but we already have good players where he plays. That money should have been spent on the midfielder.
All this to say that Ronaldo can be part of the solution. You'll just get disapointed if you expect him to be THE solution.
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