Why, Klopp, Pep and Zidane of course. We should get one of them. Have Woody sell em on the Disneyland of football!
Unpopular Opinion: United and Chelsea can challenge next year
- Thread starter NewGlory
- Start date
In other word no top managers available.
Rose, Pochettino, Simeone, Nagelsmann are managers who are available, or who I could see be available in the coming years given their situation. All managers who at this point, I'd have over Ole. Not saying he should be sacked, as I mentioned, but this nonsense that we shouldn't be proactive because we have a manager is ridiculous. If he doesn't win or succeed in the future, he should be moved on for an upgrade.
Regardless, whether or not a top manager is currently available isn't the point. I'm not asking for him to be sacked now. The case of who isn't or is available in the future, when/if he is sacked could be completely different. Hopefully he makes it here, but if given time, he doesn't get us winning top titles, establishing himself as one of the best in the game, he will rightfully be upgraded on.
You missed the most obvious one who also happens to be available and also better than the most of the mentioned names, Massimiliano Allegri strangely under rated by most it seems.
You just said top managers are "Managers who have proven they can still win at the top level". None of Rose, Pochettino & Nagelsmann are that level yet.
And what is Simeone doing there? Morinho won the league in 14/15 last time while Simeone won the league in 13/14 and it was his only one. How is Mourinho not a top manager but Simeone is? Simeone didn't win at top level longer than Mourinho. You need to be consistent with this!
Which is exactly why I already clarified I put them in the tier below. Good point with Simeone and Jose, let me explain. The case with Simeone and Mourinho is very specific to the fact that Mourinho has worked with far greater resources than Simeone, but most importantly, his most recent 'big' jobs have resulted in failure. I'm talking about current status, not what they were, which is the whole point of the post, Mourinho isn't in that category anymore. You don't necessarily need to win major trophies to be a top manager, which is why Simeone, alongside the other managers in the tier below (imo) are managers who have proven they can get close (which with investment, could lead to trophies, see; Klopp at Liverpool as an example, with Allison and VVD) and/or progressive managers who have time on their side. Jose is neither of those things. Simeone's performance with Atleti over the past few years has imo far outweighed that of Jose's in the past few seasons with his 'top' jobs.
Simeone is a better version of Mourinho imo. His football is just as effective defensively, whilst being more potent offensively, on a reduced budget. His ability not to implode after 3 years is another benefit. I could just be a salty fecker who doesn't like him after the state he left our club in, that could also be part and parcel of my opinion tbf.
Interesting how City if they win their last two games will end up with 81 points.
We're capable of that but it would seem City will splash the cash again and fix their defence, Liverpool will enjoy most teams lying back and thinking of England when they arrive so will amass another 90+ point haul. Liverpool have put in two seasons of 93+ points.
I don't think we have the players or manager to win 30+ games out of 38, not that I want Ole sacked.
If by challenging you mean a Spurs type run then fall away, then sure.
We're capable of that but it would seem City will splash the cash again and fix their defence, Liverpool will enjoy most teams lying back and thinking of England when they arrive so will amass another 90+ point haul. Liverpool have put in two seasons of 93+ points.
I don't think we have the players or manager to win 30+ games out of 38, not that I want Ole sacked.
If by challenging you mean a Spurs type run then fall away, then sure.
Ok I get the idea. We tried some big names, didn't work and left a big mess. Why do you think it'd be different this time ?
Yeah sure thing indeed
I really doubt we can challenge next year, and I am pretty sure Chelsea won't be able as well.
Why? First, the gap is very big, and although I think Liverpool won't be able to repeat the season they will be around 90 points mark. City will also have much better season as they will fix some issues they had, and will be more hungry than this year.Of course, it depends on a lot of factors, post corona time, preseason, level of stress and fatigue. The season will be different than regular one, but still they will certainly add some players and need less to fix than Chelsea and United.
We can close the gap. For the first time in 7 years, we need to fix things, not to build from scratch. Obviously our first 11 is OK and can deal against rival, but every sub will decrease the level. So, we need to add some legs, and we will be stronger, but no way 30 points stronger. Step by step is OK and I would be more than happy if we close the gap and reach 80 points landmark (only Jose I think managed to get to that point in after Fergie era). With improvement of younger players and right signings, in Ole's third season we can go till the end. It is the best case scenario for me.
For Chelsea I would say similar, although I think that Lampard did not fix any of the problems he had since the start of the season. They will improve attacking line with Werner for sure, as he is above Abraham, but he will need some time to adapt. They will add a few more as we can hear, but at the end the main problem in their game is defense that can't be easily fixed as they need too many players, including goalkeeper. It can't be fixed in one summer, especially in difficult summer for transfers.
Why? First, the gap is very big, and although I think Liverpool won't be able to repeat the season they will be around 90 points mark. City will also have much better season as they will fix some issues they had, and will be more hungry than this year.Of course, it depends on a lot of factors, post corona time, preseason, level of stress and fatigue. The season will be different than regular one, but still they will certainly add some players and need less to fix than Chelsea and United.
We can close the gap. For the first time in 7 years, we need to fix things, not to build from scratch. Obviously our first 11 is OK and can deal against rival, but every sub will decrease the level. So, we need to add some legs, and we will be stronger, but no way 30 points stronger. Step by step is OK and I would be more than happy if we close the gap and reach 80 points landmark (only Jose I think managed to get to that point in after Fergie era). With improvement of younger players and right signings, in Ole's third season we can go till the end. It is the best case scenario for me.
For Chelsea I would say similar, although I think that Lampard did not fix any of the problems he had since the start of the season. They will improve attacking line with Werner for sure, as he is above Abraham, but he will need some time to adapt. They will add a few more as we can hear, but at the end the main problem in their game is defense that can't be easily fixed as they need too many players, including goalkeeper. It can't be fixed in one summer, especially in difficult summer for transfers.
I don't give a feck about big names. I care about managers who still have the required quality and vision to lead the club to success, doesn't have to be a big name. We've signed some 'top' managers who were very clearly past their sell by date ala Van Gaal and Jose who have both since retired or continued to struggle, that doesn't mean we should stop looking for top managers and settle for Ole. If he doesn't continue to improve and have us winning trophies, get rid. I don't give a shit about his recent status with us. I love the guy as much as any other United fan, but he needs to be judged as manager of Manchester United, his time with us as a player is done.
But all guys you've mentioned are big names ?
Yeah but my statement was no "top manager" available. When I said top manager it means top manager not manager who is below tier of top manager. Chelsea & Arsenal would have got them when they lost their managers anyway if they are available to begin with but they didn't get them.
The current status is that Simeone doesn't win a thing, he's in the club to keep them in top 4. If anything about his status he's similar to Wenger at Arsenal was or Poch at Spurs was.
You don't necessarily need anyone with status of top manager to manage top club. You want a manager who can meet United's philosophy, that's the right manager. Not just some well known name of manager. We tried something different on LVG & Mourinho and didn't work out, not only they were top manager when we appointed them but their style don't suit our philosophy, this could also be the same case as Simeone as he's a defensive type of manager and will not suit Manchester United even if you think he's available.
I agree on some of your points, we absolutely need a manager that buys into our vision, but more importantly, we need a manager who can bring about success with said vision. We don't need to sign the tier 1 managers, they may not be available, but I would still consider managers in the tier 2 an upgrade on Ole (based on what has been seen currently). He doesn't deserve to be sacked and certainly not for Simeone, even though I do think Simeone is a better coach than Ole. I was purely suggesting Simeone absolutely deserves to be in that tier below, what he's done with Atleti and continues to do is impressive.
As I said to the poster above - I don't care about well known names. LVG and Jose were very clearly past their sell by date, hence why one retired after leaving and the other has continued to struggle, very clearly taking a step down. Both are no longer in those upper tiers. Just because we made the mistake of hiring managers who were clearly past it, doesn't mean we should be reluctant to upgrade on our head coach if he doesn't continue to improve.
If I had a preference I would look at Rose or Nagelsmann, both are very young managers, with very progressive, exciting approaches to the game. Who are still learning and adapting. That being said, neither would probably be immediately available, which is fine, as I think Ole has bought himself some time, especially with our very impressive recent run of form, but I'm not of the idea that we should be head in the sand putting all our eggs in the Ole basket. He has to win, because that is what is expected of a United manager, if he doesn't, he should be moved on like the rest were.
Managers like Rose and Nagelsmann aren't nearly as renowned as managers like Jose or LVG, that's a ridiculous statement. They are 'big names' because they manage big clubs. You could argue Ole is a big name too now, he manages the biggest club on the planet and most football fans have probably become familiar with his name, if they weren't prior.
As mentioned, really don't give a shit if they are a big name or not, they should be judged on their merits as a manager.
Ok I see. So no more Klopp, Pep, Zidanne or Simeone now. No big name.
So based on what you would think Rose and Nagelsmann are qualified for the quote below ?
If I'm not wrong all Rose won is an Austrian league with RB Salzburg. And Nagelsmann hasn't won a thing yet?
I've already explained this a million times. I very clearly alluded to the fact that I placed them in the tier BELOW said managers. That's a very exclusive list.
Well read my post again please. As far as I known both Rose and Nagelsmann haven't won a thing at the top level yet.
Again, based on what you would think those two are qualified for the still win at the top level ?
C'mon man! He's already dead!
They aren't the World's best managers, I'm not so sure what about this is so difficult for you to understand. The world's top managers are Zidane, Klopp and Pep, I'd argue maybe Allegri too. Considering most, if not all of them are unattainable at this current moment, the second tier of managers; including Rose and Nagelsmann who have shown glimpses of potential to reach that level, are still superior managers to Ole.
Seem not yet to me mate.
Ok now new question.
Based on what you'd think Rose and Nagelsmann are superior managers than Ole ?
Liverpool won't win it again in my opinion.
They had the Leicester effect where every neutral seemed to want them to win it once. But the fun is over now, everyone wants to beat the Champions and Liverpool haven't been in that position before in the PL. I simply don't see them retaining, nor should they take the top 4 for granted.
Chelsea have looked shit whenever i've seen them this season. Even when they win, its just because they get a moment of luck, or a moment of individual Pulisic class. Not enough to win a league.
Man City will win it. That ban lift for being totally 100% clean and innocent will make them take advantage of the market, adding to their team of serial winners. I'm actually surprised Sancho isn't being talked more about as a target for them than us. He'll surely have a point to prove there, and Silva and Sane won't be there next season.
They had the Leicester effect where every neutral seemed to want them to win it once. But the fun is over now, everyone wants to beat the Champions and Liverpool haven't been in that position before in the PL. I simply don't see them retaining, nor should they take the top 4 for granted.
Chelsea have looked shit whenever i've seen them this season. Even when they win, its just because they get a moment of luck, or a moment of individual Pulisic class. Not enough to win a league.
Man City will win it. That ban lift for being totally 100% clean and innocent will make them take advantage of the market, adding to their team of serial winners. I'm actually surprised Sancho isn't being talked more about as a target for them than us. He'll surely have a point to prove there, and Silva and Sane won't be there next season.
Not until we resolve our issues with squad depth (specifically the drop in quality between the first 11 and the rest of the squad) and improve the offensive contribution of our fullbacks.
Even then i think next season might be a step too far, but i can see us challenging, rather than being so far adrift.
Even then i think next season might be a step too far, but i can see us challenging, rather than being so far adrift.
Based on the fact that neither have had a stint where they got a club relegated, only for the relegated club to then think the manager was not good enough for them. The fact that their teams are better coached and are seemingly less reliant on individuality than ourselves, whilst also having far less resources to splash around.
Seem not yet to me mate.
Ok now new question.
Based on what you'd think Rose and Nagelsmann are superior managers than Ole ?
I consider them to be better prospective managers than Ole. Ole is still somewhat of an unknown quantity in the top flight though, so the onus is on him to really prove everyone wrong and establish himself as a manager worthy of Manchester United. If he can't, he should be sacked and moved on for what the club consider to be a superior manager, that simple.
The jury is still out on where all of them will end up as managers, as all 3 are very young and hopefully will be around for some time yet. Given their current status, ability and experience, I'd put them both ahead of Ole currently though.
To stop my bad jokes.
I think you both got caught a bit in the cross-fire here.
You are right that currently Pep, Klopp and Zidane is considered to be among the elite (personally not so sure about Zidane at other clubs than Real). And Rose, Nagel etc. is widely regarded as quality coaches who could rise to the top.
Ole isn't among those at the moment. But only cause he hasn't shown it over enough time yet. The results, both in the squad improvements and fixtures this last half year, gives an impression that he could get there. You even said it yourself, the jury is still out. Maybe, potentially.
And yes if he doesn't keep the same upwards trajectory next season, questions need to be asked.
But I think why @Strelok felt so strongly about nailing you on the statements is because there's so many others on here that have just decided that Ole can never be a great manager because he never managed a big club before, while they also fail to come up with a reasonable candidate that could come in and do better than him right now.
I believe all 3 of us agree that things are looking good right now, Ole is doing a great job all things considered, and we all hope that long may it continue improving!
In order to bring success with said vision we need a manager who can build the team first. Right now Ole is doing a very good job of building the team, whether he's the right one to step into bring success, we can talk about it when we are at that stage. We are still in rebuilding process stage not the stage where people are expecting us to win the title already. You don't fix a broken toy in short period of time, and you don't try to consider of change something when we are still going into the right direction.
What you said about LVG & Jose should apply the same as Simeone. LVG managed to make Netherlands into semi final of world cup with only RVP & Robben as his only top players in his squad, that's also impressive and show why he deserved to be in the same tier when United appointed him.
Jose wouldn't done worse if he's managing Atletico Madrid now. You need to understand that EPL is top 6 not top 3 like La Liga, every season Atl Madrid is so much favourite to be top 3 minimum. Atl Madrid could easily take players from outside top 3 La Liga without worrying about unrealistic money. Thus why people still mentioned about Jose's name when speaking about top manager.
You're right about that first part, I have regularly mentioned how impressed I am with the signings and changes Ole is making at the club. I've never said he should be let go of currently. Where my doubts with him lie is if he is a capable enough coach, when required, to get us back to the very top. As you said though, we shall see when required, if he doesn't cut it, he will be let go of, as he should be.
I don't necessarily agree on the Jose and Simeone comparisons though. For starters, I don't consider LVG's Netherlands stint as highly as the tactical aspect of the game isn't nearly as prominent in international football imo. You've had managers like Guus Hiddink who have gotten Australia to the semi finals of the World cup ffs. Coaches don't have as long to implement styles of play, which is generally why in international tournaments, the most talented squad wins.
With Jose, his success in the past was reliant on spending, which is no issue. All the World's best managers spend (which I use to consider Jose to be). That being said, the spending hasn't stopped, but the results have. He hasn't achieved anywhere near the heights he use to, whilst also spending similar amounts of money. I believe that's down to his inability to adapt to the current game, something Simeone has done much better imo. His teams have been more competitive in Europe lately too, whilst spending far less money. I just think he's a better version of Mourinho, in almost every way. Just as hard, if not harder to break down, whilst being more of a threat offensively too.
If you still consider him as one of the World's best managers, all power to you, I just don't agree
Nagelsmann what serious? So Chelsea are smack and we're charlie. That's the diff, biff. I honestly believe I'm not prepared to say people have to get to grips with it outside I've got netflix now and half the defensive errors will go away overnight, probably more Shaun. I did time in Longlartin remember that arse lickin cnut had to pull him out with a pair of tweezers I was subversive. I've been on units what about you?
You summed up my thoughts very well. I don't share the same opinion as those other posters. I don't really give a shit where a manager comes from or how big of a name he is. All managers have to start somewhere. I'm just not so head-in-the-sand about this all as others seem to be. There's been far too many false dawns with this club the past few years, had a few with Ole too since he's been here. He will be given the required time and resources to succeed, he's already had ample funds and seems he will be getting more. If he succeeds, he would have earnt it. If he doesn't, he will be moved on for someone better.
That simple to me.
I think this is a sensible view but the optimist in me does think Utd could stake a claim for best of the rest and put up a challenge providing we sign Sancho and we remain injury-free.
Yeah, tbh I've no idea who is better than who.
And I don't even care. As long as Ole keeps making progress in the right direction we should all support him I think. Let time answer us all, who knowns and can be so sure of what will be guys.
Sorry but I can't get what you say tbh. I'm not English btw. Could you explain in a more "international" language so the illiterate me would understand please
?There are signs that our team is very similar to Klopp’s early liverpool teams. At times, good attacking football but the inability to close out games against the dross of the league due to defensive lapses and errors but then gaining massive victories against top 4 rivals. That’s exactly what we are this year, dropping points from winning positions against teams we should be beating while going out and doing the double against city and Chelsea. The only difference now is that pool had the luck of an incredibly incompetent Barca team willing to spend an insane amount of money on Coutinho, which helped them helped fund moves for VVD and Allison. We’re getting there but still need up to 3 significant signings to challenge.
Anyone who's sane knows that we won't properly challenge next year. What we need to do, is to close the gap.
A good season for me, will be if we got to c.80-85 points in the league and be in the title race conversation til March/April. Go deep in both domestic cups (SF with some luck), and get to the QF in the CL (if we qualify), all while building up the capacities of the team and improve their ways of working as the season goes on.
If we can further clear out the deadwood, bring in Sancho, a midfielder for depth, and a new CB, then I'd say we're a couple more signings away from having a complete squad (I'd say a new fullback and striker for depth would be the only missing pieces) - add in the likes of Mengi, Laird, and Mejbri (plus Axel if he can finally overcome his injury issues) and that's the squad complete, IMO, and due to the young average age, we should be looking forward to them growing and improving as time goes on... Potentially very exciting!
A good season for me, will be if we got to c.80-85 points in the league and be in the title race conversation til March/April. Go deep in both domestic cups (SF with some luck), and get to the QF in the CL (if we qualify), all while building up the capacities of the team and improve their ways of working as the season goes on.
If we can further clear out the deadwood, bring in Sancho, a midfielder for depth, and a new CB, then I'd say we're a couple more signings away from having a complete squad (I'd say a new fullback and striker for depth would be the only missing pieces) - add in the likes of Mengi, Laird, and Mejbri (plus Axel if he can finally overcome his injury issues) and that's the squad complete, IMO, and due to the young average age, we should be looking forward to them growing and improving as time goes on... Potentially very exciting!
Solskjaer and Lampard have too many limitations in their capabilities as managers to challenge. I'd peg Ole more if we can maintain an unbeaten run going into the new season. The issue is on the coaching side of things, but I do give Ole credit for allowing the team to generate more chances. Our build up play is still considerably lower than the standard Klopp / Pep offer their starting 11. Whereas Lampard on the other hand is the closest between Ole in movement of his team but he seems completely inept organising his defensive shape.
I do see Liverpool dropping off next season, with no investment pending the sale of their assets they will remain stagnant. City should definitely have the league next year pending some unknown crisis.
I do see Liverpool dropping off next season, with no investment pending the sale of their assets they will remain stagnant. City should definitely have the league next year pending some unknown crisis.
Ole has done a great job so far. Getting rid of the shit and bringing in what we need . We are playing a good brand of football which should only get better of we manage to keep bringing in quality new players .
It's just some on here think because we are United we have a divine right to win everything every year and should have ready made genius manager in place.
Ferguson wasnt greeted with open arms by everyone but things take time . I agree the jury is out on Ole but already he's doing a better job than any of the other managers since Ferguson
@Womp hey I just can't help but noticed your sign. I mean no offense I'm just too curious I gotta ask if it was you who set it so or else?
Thanks.
Thanks.
I haven't doubted any of those things, I agree. Where my doubts lie is whether or not he's capable enough as a coach to get us to the top. That's yet to be seen.
It was set for me during the Alexis Sanchez transfer saga. I was convinced he wouldn't join us over City, so the deal was if he did end up joining us, I'd get that tagline
Ok thanks mate.It was set for me during the Alexis Sanchez transfer saga. I was convinced he wouldn't join us over City, so the deal was if he did end up joining us, I'd get that tagline
Cheers
Who's the idiot now, huh?It was set for me during the Alexis Sanchez transfer saga. I was convinced he wouldn't join us over City, so the deal was if he did end up joining us, I'd get that tagline
No worries mateOk thanks mate.
Cheers
Given how the Alexis transfer has gone, maybe that was a battle I should have won!Who's the idiot now, huh?