US Airstrikes in Venezuela - Maduro captured

[John XII]

Seems ott when she obviously wasn't even participating anymore. Doubt they would have handled the situation the same way had this not been an anti governmental protest but hey ho.

I agree with you completely on that, there's been similar stuff at protests in the UK recently and indeed for years. My feeling is that there's so much real bad happening that attempts to make people aware of them are often undermined by sensationalism and hyperbole. That method only works on a large scale for right wing stuff.

 

[antohan]

How did you manage to have to have dinner with the commander of the maoist guerilla?

I was trekking in the region and came across an armed "border guard" collecting $5 tax for the guerrilla. Basically, like a visa to enter guerrilla controlled territory.

Lovely chap with a machine gun he could barely lift. Spoke no English either, just showed you the voucher which said you had to pay $5 to pass through.

When I got there he was struggling to get paid by some Chinese ladies who insisted they were exempt because they were Maoist. I also knew there were a couple of massive Israeli guys about an hour behind me, defo military trained, so it could get ugly. Decided the best use of the rest of my day was sticking around and helping out explaining to people the situation in Nepal and that this wasn't just a scammer. Wound up negotiating price match with the Israelis (they paid $5 and I paid the other $5)

The guy had a Nepali-English booklet to aid him so I learned some basics while teaching him the English versions. Managed to get across I would like to know more but he couldn't articulate much.

Then that night this guy shows up at my hostel with two guys armed to the teeth (grenades and all) and comes straight to me. I almost shat myself but he explained I had kindly helped this guy and was here to have the chat I couldn't have with him.

At the end he gave me a safe passage note saying I was a friend of the guerrilla and asked where I was going next. "Ghorepani, it's the only place with a phone and it's my sister's birthday". "Don't stay there". The next day I found out the phone had been cut off so skipped Ghorepani and ploughed on. In the evening, news reached us the guerrilla had conducted some retaliatory actions, a number of people were dead, etc. Apparently the phone had been used to relay information to the royal army.

It was a bizarre couple of weeks thereafter with helicopters flying over and having to wear no top so the guys on the helicopter immediately identified the bare-chested chap as a fecking tourist.

 

[groovyalbert]

I can sense it --- everything they do and say of late. Even outside those cities, though from the republican civil war, rather than liberal values, many calling it out as at odds with isolationalism which you'll know is huge in the small c conservative ethos.

But yes, we'll see in time to come either way.

But what does this mean in reality? You think there will be a literal toppling of the US government by force from within, or that there will be a difference in policy from future administrations? If the former, what system of governance replaces it?

To bring this back to Venezuela, whilst the US' actions are completely nuts (to put it lightly) at least there you have an economically failing state with an authoritarian leader who botched an election. There's clear and obvious governance changes that could be imposed for the better with regime change - what do the American citizens not have access and rights to in that sense? If Trump botched an election or ended up avoiding the next, then I think you would see some serious social unrest but I don't think this is the action that sparks that on a wide enough scale.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

The death of the propaganda apparatus is progress. Believe it or not, the fact that white house explainers have conceded defeat in the dialectic is a massive sign which points to the death of that industry which has, for a long time, underpinned US imperial adventures.

Now all they can do is come out and try to lean into that which they know they cannot defeat. Thus, you get statements which are unhinged like "we're a superpower and we'll do what we want". No president, in US history, (you may find one or two, as usual), would have, OPENLY, stated that. They're bankrupt in the political discourse and so now they're trying their last propaganda trick: to get certain, mostly young males, to aspire to that kind of brutal action without apology. It will not work. But that's how desperate they are.

Even CNN called them out on it. Jake Tapper, a complete idiot usually, wasn't having it. A sign of the times. Tucker Carlson, whom I sincerely disagree with on many issues, had something similar to say albeit from a podcast which was more apologia or obfuscation with respect to his more recent, and welcomed, pivot.

That is, "He just came out and said it" (oil/resources/Monroe Doctrine).

Now, Carlson assumes this is the birth of the US empire, whereas more astute commentators would note that it is much more like the end of that empire -- when the British lost control of the narrative at home and abroad the immense contradictions with respect to professed beliefs, the people's, if not the ruling class, was too much to even try and smooth over. That is what is happening here in a different guise. It may have been the best thing Maduro ever did. Exposing serious cracks in a nation beset by cracks and which desperately needs a reform along the lines of any true/legitimate broad consensus...

It's the opposite. The conservative propaganda machine is actually so effective that its irrelevant if Trump says something in a press conferenc. The right wing propaganda has grown so powerful and so effective over the last 10 years, that I've been hearing Gen Z to Gen X people the last few days confidently declaring that Maduro was a narcoterrorist, that his removal makes America safer and it was a positive thing for Venezuelans. The right wing propaganda machine is more effective today than ever before.

 

[John XII]

It's the opposite. The conservative propaganda machine is actually so effective that its irrelevant if Trump says something in a press conferenc. The right wing propaganda has grown so powerful and so effective over the last 10 years, that I've been hearing Gen Z to Gen X people the last few days confidently declaring that Maduro was a narcoterrorist, that his removal makes America safer and it was a positive thing for Venezuelans. The right wing propaganda machine is more effective today than ever before.

This. They got elected ffs.

 

[Melbourne Red]

I was trekking in the region and came across an armed "border guard" collecting $5 tax for the guerrilla. Basically, like a visa to enter guerrilla controlled territory.

Lovely chap with a machine gun he could barely lift. Spoke no English either, just showed you the voucher which said you had to pay $5 to pass through.

When I got there he was struggling to get paid by some Chinese ladies who insisted they were exempt because they were Maoist. I also knew there were a couple of massive Israeli guys about an hour behind me, defo military trained, so it could get ugly. Decided the best use of the rest of my day was sticking around and helping out explaining to people the situation in Nepal and that this wasn't just a scammer. Wound up negotiating price match with the Israelis (they paid $5 and I paid the other $5)

The guy had a Nepali-English booklet to aid him so I learned some basics while teaching him the English versions. Managed to get across I would like to know more but he couldn't articulate much.

Then that night this guy shows up at my hostel with two guys armed to the teeth (grenades and all) and comes straight to me. I almost shat myself but he explained I had kindly helped this guy and was here to have the chat I couldn't have with him.

At the end he gave me a safe passage note saying I was a friend of the guerrilla and asked where I was going next. "Ghorepani, it's the only place with a phone and it's my sister's birthday". "Don't stay there". The next day I found out the phone had been cut off so skipped Ghorepani and ploughed on. In the evening, news reached us the guerrilla had conducted some retaliatory actions, a number of people were dead, etc. Apparently the phone had been used to relay information to the royal army.

It was a bizarre couple of weeks thereafter with helicopters flying over and having to wear no top so the guys on the helicopter immediately identified the bare-chested chap as a fecking tourist.

Holy feck this is an amazing travel story

 

[Melbourne Red]

Apologies if already posted but this is a Facebook post from a UK politician called Graham Jones who chaired a parliamentary committee on Venezuela :

I appeared on the news yesterday to talk about Venezuela. It’s not a country that directly affects the UK, but it is one where people have suffered for years.

I was, bizarrely, asked to chair the Parliamentary Committee on this far-flung place, so I know a great deal about it. That experience often left me despairing at the poor quality of our politicians and media coverage.

I met hundreds of Venezuelans. Many of them also despaired at outside voices pursuing international ideals while conveniently forgetting the plight of ordinary Venezuelans, who have been pleading for help for years.

From an observer’s point of view, this is how it looks to me.

It appears Trump has struck some kind of deal for a bloodless transition. It also appears that members of Maduro’s government have betrayed him for their own ends—financial and criminal—under unrelenting US pressure.

We are told the CIA have been in Caracas since August; that they accessed the presidential palace with ease; and that Maduro was taken without resistance. We are told the Venezuelan air defences, supplied by Moscow, were switched off as a swathe of Chinooks carrying 200 Delta Force personnel flew in.

Trump’s speeches are littered with hyperbole and nonsense, and it’s difficult to pick the bones out of his comments. But two points caught my attention.

First, he said a second US wave wouldn’t be necessary—subtext: the regime remnants have conceded. Second, he implied the US would govern during a transition, which is worrying. Subtext: remnants of Maduro’s system want assurance that the opposition won’t take over immediately and come after them for their crimes and profiteering.

Trump also described the opposition leader, Maria Machado, as a “nice woman” but “not capable”. Subtext: he isn’t picking sides. The read-through is that there is a guarantee to Delcy Rodriguez. In effect, he is telling both sides they will have to accept something uncomfortable for a while.

I’m not sure Trump was comfortable saying America was going to “run” the country. His body language looked flaky—like this is ugly, but necessary.

There are back-channel reports that the US initially wanted the opposition to take over. But after long conversations, the US may have concluded the opposition is divided and not yet capable of managing a transition—especially if the armed forces remain loyal to the old regime and the country risks sliding into civil conflict.

Rubio indicated a pragmatic, reluctant conclusion—probably informed by the mistakes of Iraq, where the Ba’ath Party was dismissed and the state became ungovernable—would not be repeated in Venezuela. He said as much. US thinking seems more detailed than some commentary suggests.

It appears a lot of thought has gone into US plans, but the plan pivots on whether the regime remnants “play ball”, and that likely includes uncomfortable guarantees. Trump made an interesting point: a bloodless transition is better than a bloody one. That may be the centre of his decision—but it may also produce ugly, unacceptable, and negative outcomes.

Legally, the issue is simpler than many commentators suggest. The West—including the United Kingdom—recognises the opposition as the legitimate authority, and they have welcomed the US action. If the recognised sovereign authority is not making the case to trigger UN Article 51, then there is no case for illegality on that basis.

There are rival opinions supporting Maduro’s claim that he is the sovereign leader; the corollary is that this was an illegal invasion. You can pick your side on who speaks for the nation. But from a legal point of view, the recognised Venezuelan authority has welcomed the action, describing it as liberation. This also affects who speaks for Venezuela at the UN: two different speeches, two different approaches—one that supports legality, one that argues illegality.

The UK’s legal position since Maduro stole the 2017 election is that the opposition is the legitimate authority. On that view, it is for them to decide whether they were invaded or assisted.

Many commentators mix up the law as they want it to be with the law as it is. My position is aligned with the UK’s stated position: the legitimate opposition is sovereign, and given they won 80/20 in an election that Maduro refused to recognise after losing, it is their view we accept.

Maria Machado was given the Nobel Peace Prize in Norway recently, with every Liberal Democrat wanting a selfie in support. We should not retreat from that support.

There are moral issues too—but there’s more to it.

Maduro held a referendum in 2023 on taking over neighbouring Guyana. The Maduro regime is not in a strong position to lecture on illegal “big brother” interventions.

And given the West believes the opposition won the elections of 2017 and 2024, it is difficult to argue this is “regime change” in the usual sense. The opposition won and should take rightful office.

Maduro is being investigated for serious alleged crimes by the ICC, and Delcy Rodriguez may be mindful not just of US power, but of international courts too. That may be one explanation for why they have thrown Maduro under the bus. I’m sure their own status—and what they are guilty of having done—is front and centre in their thinking.

It also appears the “rules-based order” is fraying—if it ever existed. As I said on TV, there are wider ramifications we need to be mindful of: global threats.

The US cannot be allowed to subsume the democratic process, the will of the Venezuelan people, or Venezuelan sovereignty. Nor can the US be given a green light to act unilaterally elsewhere—for example, Greenland.

In the South China Sea, we must be absolutely clear about what American interventionism means, because we cannot equivocate it with Chinese military action in Taiwan. If we misunderstand Venezuela, we fall into the trap of false equivalence—and into Beijing’s hands.

Then there is the thorny issue of Ukraine: whether the United States continues to supply arms and funding, the effect on the war’s outcome, and the risk of NATO fragmentation. One thing is clear: Europe has to get off US dependency and dramatically increase defence spending to backfill any potential US withdrawal from NATO or from collective allied action.

Then there is Trump’s peace plan in Gaza, which trundles along.

Yesterday, the most worried person was probably President Zelenskyy, who is desperately trying to keep the Western coalition—including the United States—intact. Any fragmentation over Venezuela could have serious implications for Ukraine and for Europe.

We must not lose sight of the humanitarian catastrophe: around 80% of Venezuelans live in poverty; roughly 60% are malnourished; inflation is around 178%; crime is out of control; and trafficking routes through Venezuela—including via ports and airports—have been significant, particularly toward places like Medellín and Honduras and other transit destinations.

Waving placards does nothing to help Venezuelans, and they despair at the likes of Jeremy Corbyn.

There is a parallel with Iraq—right or wrong: a US invasion, the Ba’ath Party kept in place rather than dismissed, and Saddam sent to the courts. Has the US learned lessons?

For Europe, the red lines will rightly include: freezing out the opposition; any temporary US sovereignty over another nation; and, for some, the protection of regime figures from justice by the US.

The UK has faced its own dilemmas on accountability for criminal political activity through the Good Friday Agreement. Difficult questions may lie ahead if Trump has struck this sort of deal.

I can only presume the US is telling Delcy Rodriguez—who one minute pledged total allegiance to “the only president, Nicholas Maduro,” and later in the day was sworn in as Venezuela’s new president, albeit for a limited period—to go with the flow and accept it. And the same message to Maria Riccardo, the opposition leader: go with the flow and accept it.

Is this Trump’s best-case, bloodless option? We don’t know.

But everything pivots on the actions of the remnants of the regime, and that is directly linked to their assessment of the risks of further US action—a “second wave”.

It appears there have been many conversations in the background between all parties, excluding Maduro. That may explain why Maduro increasingly relied on Cuban advisers and Cuban security rather than Venezuelan forces. His grip was slipping.

The American question to Delcy Rodriguez is simple: do you want your country to continue as an economic basket case? It’s a powerful emotional offer.

Another major factor is oil. Venezuelan crude is heavy, low-grade sludge requiring enormous investment to process. Up to the 1990s—and before Chavez—major foreign companies had the infrastructure, capital, resources, and skills to keep pumping stations and refineries operating.

During the Bolivarian revolution, when Hugo Chavez took power, he nationalised the industry, kicked the oil companies out, and took over their investment. That is the basis for Trump’s grievance.

More importantly, over the following 30 years the Venezuelan regime has been unable to manufacture parts or manage production well enough to sustain the industry. Output has plummeted to a fraction of what it was. State seizure has been a catastrophe.

Given Venezuela cannot currently support its own oil industry, it requires foreign expertise and investment. There is an argument for a proper framework to enable this. However, Trump’s “America First, no one else” posture is not exactly the sort of foreign investment approach that democratic countries can accept.

At the moment there is an oil embargo, so no one is benefiting from Venezuelan oil. Opening it up depends on where companies sell it and whether it returns to open markets.

Nicolas Maduro now looks like the fall guy for all sides. Trump’s decision to keep remnants of the regime in power—and effectively protect them with a piece of the pie—does not incentivise them to man the barricades for Maduro, regardless of the noise they make for domestic audiences and party apparatchiks.

One issue that cannot be overlooked is the layered nature of the regime: police and defence structures. Army generals may have cut a deal through Rodriguez, or through an informal agent. But beneath them are criminal colectivos, gangs, and drug cartels that were given sanctuary so long as they defended the regime in the streets—plus the risk of rogue elements loyal to Maduro.

The US may be trying to avoid repeating Iraq’s disaster by not dismantling the whole system overnight.

Trump’s knock-down of Maria Riccardo may be the other side of the same coin. He cannot allow the opposition to surge and “scare the horses”—scare the remnants of the regime whom he calculates he needs for this transition.

I’m sceptical. I’m not convinced Trump’s plan will work when you are dealing with people who have flagrantly disregarded laws and rights and do not respect their own people, solely for their own ends. It appears Trump has factored this in: the US has been on the ground for months, not just “pricing it in” but trying to smooth it out. It remains to be seen whether the plan works or fails.

One of Venezuela’s problems is the people commenting on it. Many know little to nothing about it and quickly overlook ordinary Venezuelans in favour of global politics. There is very little value in what they say.

There is also a danger that political posturing within Venezuela is misread: inward-facing noise gets amplified externally, and the international community turns Venezuela into a political football.

If Delcy Rodriguez has done a deal, sticks to it, and can hold things together, and then—phase two—whoever wins elections can also hold things together, then Trump’s plan may work. But there are quite a few “ifs” in that sentence.

Not notifying Europe is a big issue. Europe backs the opposition and will have serious concerns about democracy and a “dirty deal” with regime remnants. There has clearly been a coordinated response across Western capitals: they have not opposed the intervention for obvious reasons, and they have not stated it is illegal—probably the correct position, given they back the opposition as the sovereign authority. But with Ukraine in mind, they will have to be exceedingly diplomatic in pursuing any democratic agenda in Venezuela.

The diaspora across Europe is absolutely delighted at the action taken by the US administration, and that adds another dimension—particularly in countries like Spain.

Trump might pull this off, and I wouldn’t bet against him doing it. But it might be historic.

This bit was interesting:


Legally, the issue is simpler than many commentators suggest. The West—including the United Kingdom—recognises the opposition as the legitimate authority, and they have welcomed the US action. If the recognised sovereign authority is not making the case to trigger UN Article 51, then there is no case for illegality on that basis.

There are rival opinions supporting Maduro’s claim that he is the sovereign leader; the corollary is that this was an illegal invasion. You can pick your side on who speaks for the nation. But from a legal point of view, the recognised Venezuelan authority has welcomed the action, describing it as liberation. This also affects who speaks for Venezuela at the UN: two different speeches, two different approaches—one that supports legality, one that argues illegality.

The UK’s legal position since Maduro stole the 2017 election is that the opposition is the legitimate authority. On that view, it is for them to decide whether they were invaded or assisted.

 

[antohan]

Apologies if already posted but this is a Facebook post from a UK politician called Graham Jones who chaired a parliamentary committee on Venezuela :



This bit was interesting:


Legally, the issue is simpler than many commentators suggest. The West—including the United Kingdom—recognises the opposition as the legitimate authority, and they have welcomed the US action. If the recognised sovereign authority is not making the case to trigger UN Article 51, then there is no case for illegality on that basis.

There are rival opinions supporting Maduro’s claim that he is the sovereign leader; the corollary is that this was an illegal invasion. You can pick your side on who speaks for the nation. But from a legal point of view, the recognised Venezuelan authority has welcomed the action, describing it as liberation. This also affects who speaks for Venezuela at the UN: two different speeches, two different approaches—one that supports legality, one that argues illegality.

The UK’s legal position since Maduro stole the 2017 election is that the opposition is the legitimate authority. On that view, it is for them to decide whether they were invaded or assisted.

Sounds right as far as the EUs take is concerned.

There's a not insignificant issue with all that when applied to the US: Trump has repeatedly referred to Delcy as the VP and next in line of authority.

It follows that Trump is thus inadvertently recognising the fraudulently elected authorities and therefore Maduro as President.

 

[neverdie]

It's the opposite. The conservative propaganda machine is actually so effective that its irrelevant if Trump says something in a press conferenc. The right wing propaganda has grown so powerful and so effective over the last 10 years, that I've been hearing Gen Z to Gen X people the last few days confidently declaring that Maduro was a narcoterrorist, that his removal makes America safer and it was a positive thing for Venezuelans. The right wing propaganda machine is more effective today than ever before.

I see evidence to the contrary. Slow but certain death of devices and tropes used to manipulate opinion.

 

[neverdie]

But what does this mean in reality? You think there will be a literal toppling of the US government by force from within, or that there will be a difference in policy from future administrations? If the former, what system of governance replaces it?

To bring this back to Venezuela, whilst the US' actions are completely nuts (to put it lightly) at least there you have an economically failing state with an authoritarian leader who botched an election. There's clear and obvious governance changes that could be imposed for the better with regime change - what do the American citizens not have access and rights to in that sense? If Trump botched an election or ended up avoiding the next, then I think you would see some serious social unrest but I don't think this is the action that sparks that on a wide enough scale.

You deserve a better response than the response I can give you, as does Onenill... -- I usually have some long list of evidence to cite when I claim something as certain and seemingly empirical as above but here I'm giving what I have assessed myself to be true in take-format. Understand contrary opinions and I haven't ignored your concerns (each of you), I just disagree. It will be only time that tells but if I'm right there's a few issues which will demonstrate such clearly. Israel was one which did what I thought it would do even within the GOP.

This is a second but it has naught to do with maduro/venezuala -- more to do with the schism in the GOP. There'll be more.

 

[Cheimoon]

Sounds right as far as the EUs take is concerned.

There's a not insignificant issue with all that when applied to the US: Trump has repeatedly referred to Delcy as the VP and next in line of authority.

It follows that Trump is thus inadvertently recognising the fraudulently elected authorities and therefore Maduro as President.

Yeah, you can't have both: Maduro was an illegitimate president and Rodrigues is a legitimate VP. But I'm not aware of the US caring about this anyway, so no hypocrisy there; just a total disregard for any of this (except if I missed it).

It's easier for the EU (in terms of the logic of their discourse): Maduro was an illegitimate president, so his capture isn't a huge issue. But of course, whether that's hypocritical depends on how they comment on what's next. But if they except Rodriguez as the viable interim solution while proper elections are being prepared, that would stillc make sense, I think.

Of course, though, all of this is purely academic. The US don't care and the EU seems to have zero influence on any of this. (Maybe Spain a little, through their collaboration with a number of Latin American countries.)

 

[Kaos]

Wonder how the bootlickers in the EU respond if Trump followed on with this threats and also kidnapped Petro in Colombia or Sheinbaum in Mexico. Both have strong democratic mandates from open, transparent elections, and to my knowledge are recognised as legitimate governments. What reasoning would they find to avoid calling a spade and a spade?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I see evidence to the contrary. Slow but certain death of devices and tropes used to manipulate opinion.

Where are you seeing this evidence? And also, are you inside the US where you see and hear these people everyday?

The best way I can put it is how everyone is aware of that Trump quote about shooting someone on 5th avenue and still getting elected yes? What I see and hear on a daily basis is like that, Trump could literally say "i ran for President solely to enrich myself, stay out of jail, and take retribution on my political enemies" and a huge percentage, at least 1/3 would still say Trump is running to make America great again and improve the lives of Americans (or at least white Christian Americans).

As we all know, the shared "water cooler" culture of television and mainstream accepted news sources has completely evaporated and the new breed of Gen Z right wingers I see and hear is dramatically more inundated and immersed in pure far right propaganda from social media echo chambers to a constant stream of influencers, youtubers, podcasters. They live in a completely different reality where there is not even a common acceptance of verifiable facts anymore. If anything I see propaganda as more pervasive and effective than it was 20 years ago.

 

[John XII]

Wonder how the bootlickers in the EU respond if Trump followed on with this threats and also kidnapped Petro in Colombia or Sheinbaum in Mexico. Both have strong democratic mandates from open, transparent elections, and to my knowledge are recognised as legitimate governments. What reasoning would they find to avoid calling a spade and a spade?

What exactly are they supposed to do thus far? They're pretty powerless in all this.

 

[Redplane]

Wonder how the bootlickers in the EU respond if Trump followed on with this threats and also kidnapped Petro in Colombia or Sheinbaum in Mexico. Both have strong democratic mandates from open, transparent elections, and to my knowledge are recognised as legitimate governments. What reasoning would they find to avoid calling a spade and a spade?

Money?

Mexico will only see continued covert operations to influence it's politics and economy, much like has been happening for decades. Any overt military action would likely destroy such influence for years to come and I don't see it's worth the risk. If they wanted Sheinbaum gone they ll probably find another way to do it so to speak. If they would go the Maduro route however I can see that being seen a massive affront to Mexican sovereignty and a complete betrayal of what many Mexicans right now probably think is a somewhat symbiotic relationship.

Columbia, Cuba etc - who knows. For better or for worse these are more walkover countries to the US. No real economic shield to speak of, no solid cooperative agreements, etc. Even the tiniest European countries in some ways probably hold more weight than they do when it comes down to it. At least with the people currently in charge in DC.

 

[alexthelion]

The issue surely isn't is/was the Venezuelan President a cnut? Or will the country be better without him? Even ignoring the potential clusterfeck potential of the US propping up/supporting what comes next, which may be as terrible for the people as it was before. Surely the real issue is the US going full Putin and using military force to cause regime change, when it is essentially just because it suits them and their President's ego. There is no rational self defense argument, even though that is exactly what they will say. To me the real danger is that you make it harder to get Putin to back down, you destabilise everywhere (witness actual discussion about the potential for the US invading Danish territory) and you empower China to step closer to attacking Taiwan. All while further destroying US democracy.

This post should be pinned.

 

[neverdie]

The issue surely isn't is/was the Venezuelan President a cnut? Or will the country be better without him? Even ignoring the potential clusterfeck potential of the US propping up/supporting what comes next, which may be as terrible for the people as it was before. Surely the real issue is the US going full Putin and using military force to cause regime change, when it is essentially just because it suits them and their President's ego. There is no rational self defense argument, even though that is exactly what they will say. To me the real danger is that you make it harder to get Putin to back down, you destabilise everywhere (witness actual discussion about the potential for the US invading Danish territory) and you empower China to step closer to attacking Taiwan. All while further destroying US democracy.

spot on.

 

[neverdie]

Where are you seeing this evidence? And also, are you inside the US where you see and hear these people everyday?

The best way I can put it is how everyone is aware of that Trump quote about shooting someone on 5th avenue and still getting elected yes? What I see and hear on a daily basis is like that, Trump could literally say "i ran for President solely to enrich myself, stay out of jail, and take retribution on my political enemies" and a huge percentage, at least 1/3 would still say Trump is running to make America great again and improve the lives of Americans (or at least white Christian Americans).

As we all know, the shared "water cooler" culture of television and mainstream accepted news sources has completely evaporated and the new breed of Gen Z right wingers I see and hear is dramatically more inundated and immersed in pure far right propaganda from social media echo chambers to a constant stream of influencers, youtubers, podcasters. They live in a completely different reality where there is not even a common acceptance of verifiable facts anymore. If anything I see propaganda as more pervasive and effective than it was 20 years ago.

As stated, you deserve a far better response than the one I gave you. I.e., your post (and that of another) is substantively better. I haven't got the time to try and lay my position out with nuance as it's budding more than a rose full blown. But it's a vibe I get from certain excavations and parsing of the discourse. It would require a write up with referent points to do it any kind of dialogical justice here with respect to what you and others can and have offered in counter. So I do take your points and hopefully I can come back to this at a later date.

Very informative and well put as usual.

 

[Sweet Square]

New polling from the burger empire/fourth reich

 

[MarylandMUFan]

New polling from the burger empire/fourth reich

No, MAGA will support whatever Trump does. "Don't go into Venezuela!" "Wait, Trump went into Venezuela, great, awesome!"

Also, I can't stand that people are call this a bloodless transit/coup when at least 80 people were killed.

 

[Frosty]

Maduro surely has to claim he is an illegal immigrant in court and request to be deported?

 

[RedC]

New polling from the burger empire/fourth reich

A couple of days of propaganda and everything seems great.

 

[Beans]

No, MAGA will support whatever Trump does. "Don't go into Venezuela!" "Wait, Trump went into Venezuela, great, awesome!"

Also, I can't stand that people are call this a bloodless transit/coup when at least 80 people were killed.

It is remarkable what people will support. People all over the world getting fooled, thinking that the position being sold to them just happens to be exactly what they think should happen.

Only took about 6 months to turn republicans from democracy & Ukraine supporters into fascism and Russia supporters.

No problem, they’re only antithetical positions.

 

[Sweet Square]

Some worrying breaking news

 

[The Firestarter]

Some worrying breaking news

Why is it worrying, this will amount to nothing.

 

[Frosty]

Some worrying breaking news

Check out this non-comment which seems to admit UK involvement:

The prime minister’s official spokesperson says Downing Street won’t comment on the US operation involving the Venezuela-linked Marinera oil tanker.

"We don’t comment on the operational activity of other nations, including the third party use of UK bases”, the spokesperson told reporters when asked about the tanker in the regular Wednesday briefing following Prime Minister’s Questions, adding that the was “a long-standing position” of UK governments.

 

[John XII]

Check out this non-comment which seems to admit UK involvement:

The prime minister’s official spokesperson says Downing Street won’t comment on the US operation involving the Venezuela-linked Marinera oil tanker.

"We don’t comment on the operational activity of other nations, including the third party use of UK bases”, the spokesperson told reporters when asked about the tanker in the regular Wednesday briefing following Prime Minister’s Questions, adding that the was “a long-standing position” of UK governments.

Later adding "Now I recommend you go home and sleep quietly in your beds"

 

[Mike Smalling]

Some worrying breaking news

The US is basically behaving like me when I play Civ 5.

 

[Frosty]

UK forces helped US seizure of tanker, says MoD​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckglnprzk72o

Well, that 'no comment' lasted nearly a whole afternoon.

 

[Redplane]

UK forces helped US seizure of tanker, says MoD​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckglnprzk72o

Well, that 'no comment' lasted nearly a whole afternoon.

The UK is always one step removed from being permanently attached to DC's ass so this is no surprise to me. Even their statement at the UN was weaksauce. Then again, who knows maybe they re actually playing some 4D chess.

 

[JPRouve]

Why is it worrying, this will amount to nothing.

Two weeks to catch an oil tanker? That's quite worrying, these things are slow as hell.

 

[Sweet Square]

The US is basically behaving like me when I play Civ 5.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

As stated, you deserve a far better response than the one I gave you. I.e., your post (and that of another) is substantively better. I haven't got the time to try and lay my position out with nuance as it's budding more than a rose full blown. But it's a vibe I get from certain excavations and parsing of the discourse. It would require a write up with referent points to do it any kind of dialogical justice here with respect to what you and others can and have offered in counter. So I do take your points and hopefully I can come back to this at a later date.

Very informative and well put as usual.

That's fair and no problem. I am super curious because you might be seeing different things where you live than what I see being stuck in the US.

Another example is just how hard they are pushing this false narrative about the ICE shooting in Minnesota where we even have video showing what really happened.

 

[antohan]

All of a sudden Venezuela, which denied having political prisoners, is "excarcelating a number of people, both Venezuelan and foreign".

This doesn't mean all political prisoners, it must be largely the ones Maduro wanted in prison and others don't care much for. Maduro orphans, basically. Each of the hydra heads have their own prisoners and controlled/guaranteed judiciary process routes.

 

[VorZakone]

This is all going quite fast.

US seizes fifth oil tanker linked to Venezuela, officials say

US forces have seized another tanker in the Caribbean Sea, officials say, as the Trump administration continues its efforts to control exports of Venezuelan oil.

The tanker, the Olina, is on multiple countries' sanctions lists and the fifth vessel to be seized by the US in recent weeks. The US is using the seizures to pressure Venezuela's interim government and remove the so-called dark fleet of tankers from service. Officials say this fleet consists of more than 1,000 vessels that transport sanctioned and illicit oil.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxj28xd542o

 

[Redplane]

This is all going quite fast.

US seizes fifth oil tanker linked to Venezuela, officials say

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxj28xd542o

Part of me wonders how much of this is the US doing other oil states a favor than it is about any real benefit to our country. Perhaps I shouldn't wonder because in many ways it would probably be the only reason with the crowd running the show at the moment.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/09/...o-nobel-prize.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

President Trump indicated on Thursday evening that he will meet with María Corina Machado, Venezuela’s opposition leader, next week in Washington, after refusing to support her to lead the country following the U.S. seizure of Nicolás Maduro.

Ms. Machado has tried to ingratiate herself to Mr. Trump and earlier this week offered to give him the Nobel Peace Prize she was awarded last year. Mr. Trump has long coveted the award.

 

[Redplane]

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/09/...o-nobel-prize.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

President Trump indicated on Thursday evening that he will meet with María Corina Machado, Venezuela’s opposition leader, next week in Washington, after refusing to support her to lead the country following the U.S. seizure of Nicolás Maduro.

Ms. Machado has tried to ingratiate herself to Mr. Trump and earlier this week offered to give him the Nobel Peace Prize she was awarded last year. Mr. Trump has long coveted the award.

Had heard this before but what will probably now happen is her publicly given him the award in front of the cameras and in turn he will support her. Or vice versa. After the FIFA "award" are we really expecting anything less?

 

[VorZakone]

Looks like several countries offered mediation and an exile for Maduro. Including a meeting in the Vatican City.

Inside the frantic global race to find an escape route for Maduro

“What was proposed to [Maduro] was that he would go away and he would be able to enjoy his money,” said a person familiar with the Russian offer. “Part of that ask was that [President Vladimir] Putin would guarantee security.”

The previously unreported meeting in Vatican City was one of many failed attempts — by the Americans and intermediaries, the Russians, Qataris, Turks, the Catholic Church and others — to head off a building diplomatic crisis and find safe harbor for Maduro before Saturday’s U.S. raid to capture him.

Maduro, for his part, seemed to consistently misunderstand the signals from Washington. He believed a November call he had with Trump had gone “well,” said a person familiar with his thinking, when in fact he was being told his time was up: “The president said you can go the easy way or the hard way,” the senior White House official said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2026/01/09/venezuela-us-maduro-capture-vatican-russia/

 

[Tallis]

Had heard this before but what will probably now happen is her publicly given him the award in front of the cameras and in turn he will support her. Or vice versa. After the FIFA "award" are we really expecting anything less?

If it happens, I think those that were saying that Maduro going away is a good thing will eat humble pie.

This lady is terrible. She was inviting the US to bomb her people so she could be President.