I was contesting the point that a women's team losing to a youth team doesn't mean anything about the standard of female football given the biological differences involved, someone always brings it up in a thread like this and it's a terrible argument. What you've said here is a different argument (one that I also disagree with) but if it doesn't appeal to you that is more subjective, if it doesn't appeal to you it doesn't appeal to you. Though saying nobody watches it is really odd, over a billion people watched the last women's world cup.
US Soccer: No equal pay “because men have more responsibility”
- Thread starter Carolina Red
- Start date
After we reached pretty high level in war against discrimination in general we (humans) did what we do the best. We fecked it up. We created snowflake society where we fight against discrimination with another discrimination.
Women in some sports (football and especially tennis) want to be payed as men based on the fact that they are women. It is completely contradicting logic. If we are equal then you can't use gender excuse. You must use objective arguments why you deserve something. And people are scared to say that because they know that they will be labelled as sexists.
Sport is 100% fair regarding pays. Sports popularity (number of viewers) attracts better sponsors and that sponsors bring money. So if men bring more money then women basically want that men give their money to them. "Give me half of your earned money because we must be equal".
Same was in tennis few years ago. Who cares about the fact that men spend far more time on court than women and that men attract more sponsors. Serena Williams said that it is not fair and now all 4 grand slam tournaments have equal prizes for men and women. Or to say it how it is; men give their money to women.
But that excuse from US Soccer is just stupid
Women in some sports (football and especially tennis) want to be payed as men based on the fact that they are women. It is completely contradicting logic. If we are equal then you can't use gender excuse. You must use objective arguments why you deserve something. And people are scared to say that because they know that they will be labelled as sexists.
Sport is 100% fair regarding pays. Sports popularity (number of viewers) attracts better sponsors and that sponsors bring money. So if men bring more money then women basically want that men give their money to them. "Give me half of your earned money because we must be equal".
Same was in tennis few years ago. Who cares about the fact that men spend far more time on court than women and that men attract more sponsors. Serena Williams said that it is not fair and now all 4 grand slam tournaments have equal prizes for men and women. Or to say it how it is; men give their money to women.
But that excuse from US Soccer is just stupid
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You're absolutely right, we did well to give the women the ability to vote, and then we pissed away all the progress by giving Rapinoe a disproportionate bonus. The hubris of mankind has no end.
Yeah, i said exactly that.
.I said pretty high not that we reached maximum. Of course it is not enough and that we must do a lot more but not on the way how it is done in some cases where you discriminate one group for another.
Because that would have a knock-on effect around the world. Suddenly the German women's soccer team and English etc would start demanding equal pay too, and women's soccer globally has not reached a level even close to men's in terms of revenue, merchandise, popularity, profit etc.
The most famous female athletes on the planet earn fortunes because they are household names. Venus Williams etc
Megan Rapinoe is a name that only appeared recently. Before the world Cup nobody knew who she was. I doubt most people have the first clue what club she plays for. The women's World Cup is a bit like the Olympics. Most people who watch it are not that bothered to be watching it, but it's on free-to-air TV so people start to get behind their nation. It's not like men's international soccer where most fans are talking about the game 24/7 a month or two before it has even happened, what tactics they should play, which striker they should play etc
It's like comparing Olympic boxers to professional boxers. The gulf in genius and expertise is massive. I'm sure the Olympic heavyweight boxing final gets huge numbers watching it, but it's still a different universe altogether to a Fury Wilder mega fight. You simply can't compare the two. But as female soccer grows and grows, I'm all for women's soccer to become a major sport that every household follows, but they simply are not there yet. Would you honestly get excited about the women's Arsenal vs Utd game on on any given weekend, and plan to go on a bender with your mates while watching it together?
How much do mens make from their national team? I'm talking U.S and other top teams?
To be honest, the more I look into this the weirder it sounds. From what I have read (and it might be wrong) women national players get a guaranteed base salary of 100k whereas the men don't (but they get bonuses).
Secondly, the men are in a way more competitive world of football that has a lot of money as it stands. Women's football in general does not make much money. I know there are stats on how women's team generates more then the men's U.S soccer team but I think what matters more is the global sport.
The women's team have negotiated their contract till 2021. Just don't accept the contracts then.
I don't understand why the idea of supply and demand is so hard to understand for so many people. The reason you are paid what you are is because rather than paying you any more there is someone else who will take your job.
To be honest, the more I look into this the weirder it sounds. From what I have read (and it might be wrong) women national players get a guaranteed base salary of 100k whereas the men don't (but they get bonuses).
Secondly, the men are in a way more competitive world of football that has a lot of money as it stands. Women's football in general does not make much money. I know there are stats on how women's team generates more then the men's U.S soccer team but I think what matters more is the global sport.
The women's team have negotiated their contract till 2021. Just don't accept the contracts then.
I don't understand why the idea of supply and demand is so hard to understand for so many people. The reason you are paid what you are is because rather than paying you any more there is someone else who will take your job.
If you have the time, I currently do not, but read this NPR article and at the bottom includes the court documents by the judge.
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/02/8494...sses-u-s-womens-soccer-team-s-equal-pay-claim
As you said, it's not always clear on what was 'struck down' in the ruling. But there are things within the entire lawsuit that are still valid and are proceeding.
I don't see a cascading effect without the German or English team emulating what the US women has achieved. They are household names here. During the last kids evening during last Christmas, they all gathered around for a rewatch of the finals ! Not sure where you live, but for my niece and most kids her age, Megan and Alex Morgan are as cult worthy as David Beckham was for myself. And not sure if you actually watched the WC, but most of the matches were actually entertaining, despite gulf in class (vs mens).
Point is you are trying to force a world view on US when it's not a realty there. The dynamics of the local market takes precedence and that it works in US doesn't necessarily mean it should work all around the world too. A cricketer in US can't demand equal pay citing cricketer in India. Local market dynamics.
This really should be the end of the argument.
They generate more revenue, so they should be paid more.
It's ridiculous.
They are paid more.
What’s ridiculous is suing for “equal pay” when you make more.
What’s ridiculous is suing over a bonus scheme which you were offered and declined in favour of a guarantee salary, medical benefits and maternity pay. None of which the men receive.
What’s ridiculous is suing USSF because FIFA gives out higher bonuses for winning the men’s World Cup than the women’s World Cup.
Not to mention all that says is they made more gate receipts during the period and completely ignores all other income.
They're paid more? Then what's all this about then?
That's what I'm trying to figure out myself. I mean why would they persue this if it wasn't beneficial to them?They're paid more? Then what's all this about then?
It’s about them wanting to be paid even more and without a legitimate reason their only option to do it is under the guise of “equal pay” and create a media hunt in the hope of getting a payoff.They're paid more? Then what's all this about then?
Well it still may have been beneficial. They’ve got the USSF president fired and a former women’s player in charge now who they’ll probably think they can control better to their benefit. And despite having no substance to their claim at all they’ve still managed to control the media and paint the USSF as a sexist organization. They even manage to continue to do that even after the judge ripped their case to shreds because trial by social media don’t actually care about facts. I mean how many pages do we have on here lambasting the USSF about it when we already knew the women turned down the men’s deal in favour of a guaranteed salary. But who needs facts when you can jump on whatever bandwagon is being currently shouted about.
They’ve managed to get idiots like Joe Biden tweeting out demanding equal pay for them, despite them making more, or he’s going to cut funding when he becomes president. Bear in mind the USSF doesn’t get any government funding to begin with.
Then you’ve also got Rapinoe just using it to launch a political career of her own.
So while the main part of the case was thrown out it’s arguable they’ve still managed to benefit.
That's the point I'm most confused about.
It seems like they negotiated their contracts for guaranteed base pay over bonuses not anticipating the boom of women's football. I just wish there was more honesty and transparency here. @Edgar Allan Pillow , if the women want a better deal they should negotiate after 2021. Can't just demand money on top of a contract.
They're trying to argue that if the USAMNT won the world cup like they did, then the men would have made more money. Therefore, they want the same amount as the men would have been paid if they won the World Cup.They're paid more? Then what's all this about then?
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You could start with the wealth of material posted in the thread along with the judgments and original pleadings including their confusions about why world cups pay different (why theirs pays less)
If that's the case, I want to be paid the same amount they got paid when I won my company's inter department futsal tournament.
what a smart guy
Thanks I appreciate the compliments.
Equal pay? This is simply a 'bums in seats' equation, it is entertainment. Not some kind of Machiavelli plan to screw the female athletes out of money. Men's World Cup, the largest sporting event on the planet, Women's World Cup, growing in popularity, but not anywhere near the Men's WC atm. Seems common sense the men get paid more, the economics seems pretty straight forward, more bums in seats, more revenue, larger pot of money.
When Ronda Rousey was big in the UFC she got paid more than the men, why? She was the draw card, she brought in the punters.
When Ronda Rousey was big in the UFC she got paid more than the men, why? She was the draw card, she brought in the punters.
This guy sums it up well.
That is hilarious
Don't watch if you are the type that gets easily offended
Also don’t watch it you’re intelligent and value your time wisely.
Its Andrew Shultz. He’s a stand up comedian.
Some great feminist you are, calling for a move that would put almost every female footballer out of work.
"You know what we should build a wall, so we only let in the ones with the athletics to jump over it"
Hence the point i think he's making. They dont deserve equal pay.
Some great feminist you are, calling for a move that would put almost every female footballer out of work.
I could be wrong though
I admit that I'm not following this closely, but haven't Rapinoe and a few other USWNT players insisted that they weren't actually offered the same collective bargaining agreement as the men's team, or something along those lines?
They were but accepted a different one it seems, that actually caused them to be paid less once they ended up winning the world cup.
@limerickcitykid has explained it well
Haha that's amazing. His Michael Bradley and make a wish is brutal haha
OK well I initially understood that they were offered the exact same collective bargaining agreement as the men but rejected it (if that is definitely true then they don't have a case at all), but since the decision just over a week ago Rapinoe said that wasn't the case, so that's where my confusion lies:
“We asked to be under the men’s contract, and it was repeatedly refused to us, not only in the structure but in the total compensation. If we were under that contract, we would have earned at least three times higher.''
Uh, no.
Megan Rapinoe is an idiot who has done nothing but talk absolute shite for years without a fact in sight. Why would you believe anything she says?
The judge says they were offered the exact same deal, so obviously they were because the USSF did something called providing actual facts and numbers of the case. Something the USWNT have failed to do throughout.
They asked to be under the men’s contract and were refused because they had already declined it and negotiated a different one.
Outside of the USA nobody had the first clue who she was until her goals in the 2019 world cup.
She won the 2015 World Cup.
USA did
Cheers, I was under the impression that Rapinoe was a sovereign nation. I didn’t realise she played for the USA
Name me 3 players who played in the women's 2015 final from the USA, without looking at Google first? I bet you can't
Hope Solo, Alex Morgan, Carly Lloyd
Edit: If I'm the barometer for who is known and who isn't, obscure anime characters from the 80s trump most of the known world.
Edit: If I'm the barometer for who is known and who isn't, obscure anime characters from the 80s trump most of the known world.