Using money as an excuse

[Borden]

Yeah, the whole 'poor little United' thing is getting out of hand on the Caf recently. There are people who say, with complete seriousness, that Mourinho hasn't been backed by the board.

That’s my favorite

 

[el3mel]

haven't you just contradicted yourself there though? You say that we shouldn't be spending big money on the likes of Griezmann yet that the quality of players we're getting aren't good enough. What exactly do you think we're going to buy with £200m then that will fix all our problem areas?

City have got the likes of Sane and Jesus for a very good price. We ourselves got Martial for a good price. If your scouts are good enough, you can snipe some very good players from other leagues with about 30-50m. It's not just signing super stars all the time. You can buy a very good player that has all the potential to be a super star on his own, just like Sane and Jesus.

 

[Massive Spanner]

City have got the likes of Sane and Jesus for a very good price. We ourselves got Martial for a good price. If your scouts are good enough, you can snipe some very good players from other leagues with about 30-50m. It's not just signing super stars all the time. You can buy a very good player that has all the potential to be a super star on his own, just like Sane and Jesus.

Right but that was basically my whole point. We can't throw another £200m around next summer without first critiquing our quite clearly dated scouting and transfer system and amending it, or else we're going to end up with the same problems all over again.

 

[el3mel]

Right but that was basically my whole point. We can't throw another £200m around next summer without first critiquing our quite clearly dated scouting and transfer system and amending it, or else we're going to end up with the same problems all over again.

That's not something I disagree about. That's why I said our transfer policy needs reviewing next summer before we start spending.

 

[edgar allan]

Because we're the richest club in the world and everyone knows it. Martial was worth the money when you look at what PSG paid for Neymar and Mbappe.

Lindleof and Lakaku will produce. Im usuay not one to give up on a player but I dont see a future for Mhikhataryan. Use him as a make weight for another signing, him and Mata.

Sorry but despite all the love in for Martial, after his first season he has shown flashes only of being anything like good value yet.

 

[Green_Red]

Jose has been backed well by the board, I don't buy the spending argument as being the biggest reason for City being so much better than us. Our squad still needs some work and Jose will be able to spend a lot of money again in the summer. Biggest difference for me is how much Pep has improved his players, their playing some of the best stuff in their lives.

Ours have improved massively too. We couldnt score for our lives under LVG and last season we improved slightly. This season we're scoring loads. Defensively we are solid too, which is a big improvement. Take nothing away from Jose, we've improved under him. Pity we didnt have a Kompany, Silva, Aguero and De Bruyne in our ranks when Jose came in...

 

[edgar allan]

Right but that was basically my whole point. We can't throw another £200m around next summer without first critiquing our quite clearly dated scouting and transfer system and amending it, or else we're going to end up with the same problems all over again.

Dont blame the scouts or the system, the manager carries the full responsibility.

 

[Borden]

Of course its an excuse, City spent more on an already better squad and are first, we spend the most after them and are second.
Freaky coincidence isn't it?

You would have a point if this was a trend, and the case year after year, but it’s not. Otherwise City would win every year. And if Mourinho is only as good as the amount of money he spends relative to others then we should look for someone else, because we won’t be able to outspend City in the foreseeable future.

 

[AndyJ1985]

We've wasted far too much money. That's the bottom line. With all the money we've spent since Ferguson left we should be challenging City.

 

[Pexbo]

Difference is City targeted the areas they were weak. FB and wide positions. We kind of half did that with Lukaku and Matic. Lindelof was an unnecessary purchase and we failed to sign a fb and a winger

Difference is that we had a lot more weaker areas than City.

 

[Kevinb5555]

We dont have transfer policy at all. We just purchase whatever that manager seems to want within our budget. However, since jose come in we do seem to be getting somewhat of a policy e.g. he strengthened key areas centre-back, midfield and forward.

I think one of biggest issues we have seems to be the fact that we buy whatever suits the manager we currently have. This methods works if you have a long-term manager such as SAF so those players complement each other. The issue we have is the number of managers we have had since have all had different styles and often there is a number of players from last manager who does not suite that style.

Another issue is every time we change manager we really wipe a transfer window as it takes time for any manager to get to know their players and know what he is going to need. Also previous players that the manager may have scouted also may not be suited to new team.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Dont blame the scouts or the system, the manager carries the full responsibility.

oh I had no idea you worked for the club. Tell us more inside knowledge?

 

[Green_Red]

Sorry but despite all the love in for Martial, after his first season he has shown flashes only of being anything like good value yet.

I dont share your view. The kid is electric on the ball. Hes not consistent but he definitely has talent. In fairness what 22 year old is consistent?

 

[Greck]

Biggest problem I see is how we spend. We've made a culture of splurging on underperforming attackers. Lukaku and Mkhi are really the latest.

Also can't believe people are saying Jose wasn't backed because we didn't agree to spend 50 plus mil on Perisic. Why couldn't Jose take the risk scouting cheaper alternatives instead of making the club spend 75 on Lukaku and 50 on Perisic. I hear city got Sane/Jesus for more reasonable fees.

 

[mayurr]

I think Matic and Ibra were the right signings given the state of the squad. Matic isnt long term and neither is Ibra. Stop gap signings, thats all. Fellaini was a Moyes signing wasnt he? Plus, he is only utilised to cover deficincies. A couple more tramsfer windows are required to get this squad completed and balanced. Its much better now than it has been for about 5 years though, so Im personally happy enough and can see the progression and future.

You completely missed my point mate. Its not about how good or bad the signings are.

When i mentioned matic, ibra, lukaku, fella i didn't mean that they are not good or they performing bad. As far as their job is concerned they are trying everything their manager wants them to do. Im not complaining about the players.

Problem with united at the moment is not like they are really bad or like they are struggling like everton. They are doing good second and all, fans are moaning about the way united are playing specially compared to city. And thats what i was trying to say. city irrespective of their money would always buy better players who are more creative and skillful as their manager wants to play in a certain way. Your manager prefers big physical players and there is no chance that with his pragmatic style and players like matic, fellaini united would ever approach the game like city do.

Back to your point again who is to blame for signing players like ibra, matic ? Yes fellaini is moyes's signing but mourinho prefers him over players like mata, makhtariyan. The point is the root cause of these signings is the manager and his pragmatic style of football. Imagine mourinho being a attacking manager would he make those signings?

 

[Damien]

@User 72192
But City had a better squad though, we've seem to have overtaken every other side bar a City squad who had a head start plus spent more money than us.
If 2 clubs spend well then what can you do?
Look at Citys attack, all where there pre Pep and even Jesus joined 5 months in, and nobody can argue about the talent they had since this forum did nothing but swoon over them for a few seasons now.
Look at what Jose had to deal with, he joins when we had a Morgan / Bastian midfield with Rooney up top. Not only that but a right wing and fullback position that had to wait until more pressing areas were covered.
Jose said himself he would need 3 summer windows for this to be his team. Its his own words yet fans continually judge his transfers as if it were our final form.

Rashford was the starter up top (Rooney #10 or wherever), while Bastian was a sub and Schneiderlin was in and out of the side. Carrick, Fellaini, Mata, Rooney, Martial, Rashford were the regulars by the end of that season (with Lingard having quite a few appearances) and most still are with the exception of Rooney who was sold and Carrick who is in his last season.

 

[edgar allan]

I dont share your view. The kid is electric on the ball. Hes not consistent but he definitely has talent. In fairness what 22 year old is consistent?

He definitely has talent but he is very inconsistent. My point is at this stage he is not value for money as you suggest.
That might change in the future...

 

[RexHamilton]

I dont share your view. The kid is electric on the ball. Hes not consistent but he definitely has talent. In fairness what 22 year old is consistent?

I agree. When De Bruyne was 22 he was at Chelsea, not playing. Now look at him. So many people love to write off our players. Martial is a real talent and will prove a steal.

 

[edgar allan]

oh I had no idea you worked for the club. Tell us more inside knowledge?

Do you think Jose doesn't call the shots?

 

[cyberman]

@Borden
It is a trend though, clubs spend money well and the league positions reflect that. Im not saying spend 150m on Walters and you'll win the league.
I do not care if we find the greatest penny pincher in the history of football, he isn't keeping pace with 14 wins in 15 games. Especially with a core of a squad that finished 7th, 5th and 6th in 3 of the last 4 seasons.
Let Jose build his side and see what happens. He was behind the 8 ball when he started but the signs are there that the club is finally coming around.

 

[Green_Red]

You completely missed my point mate. Its not about how good or bad the signings are.

When i mentioned matic, ibra, lukaku, fella i didn't mean that they are not good or they performing bad. As far as their job is concerned they are trying everything their manager wants them to do. Im not complaining about the players.

Problem with united at the moment is not like they are really bad or like they are struggling like everton. They are doing good second and all, fans are moaning about the way united are playing specially compared to city. And thats what i was trying to say. city irrespective of their money would always buy better players who are more creative and skillful as their manager wants to play in a certain way. Your manager prefers big physical players and there is no chance that with his pragmatic style and players like matic, fellaini united would ever approach the game like city do.

Back to your point again who is to blame for signing players like ibra, matic ? Yes fellaini is moyes's signing but mourinho prefers him over players like mata, makhtariyan. The point is the root cause of these signings is the manager and his pragmatic style of football. Imagine mourinho being a attacking manager would he make those signings?

No I got your point. You missed mine. Matic and Ibra are not long term solutions. They are quick fixes until we can get in the type of player required. As for Pep bringing in attacking talent, Jesus, Mane and Sterling. Walker and the keeper. Other than that they were solid as far as a spine of a team is concerned. They had Kompany, Silva, De Bruyne and Aguero. We didnt have that, so thats task 1 for Jose. We're still playing catch up. Matic and Ibra are stop gaps until we can find long term solutions to those positions.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Do you think Jose doesn't call the shots?

of course he calls the shots, but who the hell do you think is giving him the player reports and information for him to do so? You think he's off watching all these players himself and going "I want him" to the board or what? Maybe we should fire our scouts, they seem pointless if Jose's doing all their work for them!

 

[pseudo_canadian]

Need to sign top full backs.

This really. Very good fullbacks can completely transform a team in the modern game.

 

[cyberman]

@Damien
Those names are even worse!
Edit wasn't Bastian out of the side due to injury at that stage though?

 

[Charles Miller]

That's the thing though. We thought we had with Shaw and Darmian. We thought we'd signed the #10's we needed with Mata, and then Mkhi. We thought we'd signed the winger we needed with Di Maria. We thought we'd signed the midfielder's we needed with Herrera, Fellaini, Basti, Scheniderlinn, etc. etc. (at least we finally got Pogba and Matic there in the end).

Do we just continue to keep spending and spending in the hope that eventually we get the players we need in these positions or what?

For the bold part, unfortunately yes.
Theres no alternative for a club with this level of expectation.

Darmian was never considered part of the elite. We need to sign wc FBs.
The case of Shaw is different. He had the potential to be one of the best in his position but got bad luck with injuries.

The thing is, in the modern game the best teams need to use the full backs to build up the game.
Barca, Madrid, PSG, Bayern, City.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Because we're the richest club in the world and everyone knows it. Martial was worth the money when you look at what PSG paid for Neymar and Mbappe.

Lindleof and Lakaku will produce. Im usuay not one to give up on a player but I dont see a future for Mhikhataryan. Use him as a make weight for another signing, him and Mata.

Those players were seen to be in a different class to Martial when bought by PSG. We bought Lukaku for 75 when Chelsea got Morata for 58. Take Lindelof, completely unknown with no other big club realy sniffing around and we parted ways with 30 million. You can be the richest club around and still not act desperate in the market. We bought a bench player from Chelsea for £37 million ffs. We completely ignore the laws of supply and demand on the negotiation table.

 

[Green_Red]

He definitely has talent but he is very inconsistent. My point is at this stage he is not value for money as you suggest.
That might change in the future...

Give over... He is dynamite, if you cant see that then theres something wrong. Go look at his numbers for this season and compare then to someone at his age you think he should be as good as.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

A lot of people are using money as the reason why City are flying high and we are not. It’s true City’s squad cost £775M combined which is the most expensive. But ours cost £712M which is only behind City and PSG. We have a more expensive squad than Real Madrid for god sake.

To top it off, our wage bill is 3rd in the world, only behind PSG and Barca.

We must have the lowest quality and return on investment out of all top clubs. I don’t think we can use money is an excuse at all for our shortcomings. If anything I feel we lack direction as a football club. It is being run like a business more than a football club. After SAF, we have no real football identity, no long term plan as a club. The people at the top of the club are more focus on financial success than anything, for them football is just a mean for them to grow the business not the other way around.

We aren't doing too badly at all,35 points from 16 games is a good return.If we keep picking up points at this rate,we"ll end up with 85 points this season,for the record,we ended up with 69 last season and 66 the season before.So if we finish 2nd,and if we pick up 16 points more than last season,is that not progress?City are abnormally good right now,they"ve dropped just 2 points so far and that's just ridiculous.If they keep playing like this,then we"ll have to just accept the fact that they"ve been extraordinary.
We need another big transfer window,3 top quality players and we"ll be good enough to compete next season.But remember,we have made excellent progress under Jose,we need to remember that....

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Anyone who uses money as an excuse needs to have a word with themselves. City have simply bought better than us. A lot of our problems in the transfer market boil down to poor scouting from our staff. You just wonder what alot of our scouts actually do as we continue to target and sign the wrong players.

 

[desmondisback]

A lot of people are using money as the reason why City are flying high and we are not. It’s true City’s squad cost £775M combined which is the most expensive. But ours cost £712M which is only behind City and PSG. We have a more expensive squad than Real Madrid for god sake.

To top it off, our wage bill is 3rd in the world, only behind PSG and Barca.

We must have the lowest quality and return on investment out of all top clubs. I don’t think we can use money is an excuse at all for our shortcomings. If anything I feel we lack direction as a football club. It is being run like a business more than a football club. After SAF, we have no real football identity, no long term plan as a club. The people at the top of the club are more focus on financial success than anything, for them football is just a mean for them to grow the business not the other way around.

Oh come on! You fool! Since when did facts have anything to do with anything?? You know how it works by now. People don't want the facts... they want an axe to grind. You have to give the people something that makes them feel better. Facts just end up being awkward.

This is what people want --> City are better coz they are richer.
And not --> It's got everything to do with having a progressive , talented manager who gets 110% out of the players available to him.

Anyway , everyone knows that the £350 million that Boris promised us would go into the NHS has actually all been stolen by City. Even the Brexit divorce bill is a scam, that money will eventually fund a new Man City super stadium.

It's all God's honest truth! I read it on some website............zzzzzz... or was it liesbook?

(btw - that was SATIRE in case anyone thinks I'm serious - heh, who knows these days?)

 

[Green_Red]

Those players were seen to be in a different class to Martial when bought by PSG. We bought Lukaku for 75 when Chelsea got Morata for 58. Take Lindelof, completely unknown with no other big club realy sniffing around and we parted ways with 30 million. You can be the richest club around and still not act desperate in the market. We bought a bench player from Chelsea for £37 million ffs. We completely ignore the laws of supply and demand on the negotiation table.

A bench player? So you think Matic wouldnt play there this season? Being benched isnt always about form. Arent Luiz and Costa benched there too at the minute?

 

[Charles Miller]

This really. Very good fullbacks can completely transform a team in the modern game.

I said in another thread, think about that same line up against City but with Marcelo and Carvajal.
Completely different game.
Is hard to defend against a team with top full backs that can play parts of the game as wide midfielders and wingers.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

This really. Very good fullbacks can completely transform a team in the modern game.

Agreed we need new fullbacks but that won't resolve our issues IMO. We also need a #10 or support striker (ala Griezmann) and a winger who isn't as inconsistent as Martial, Rashford and Lingard.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

I said in another thread, think about that same line up against City but with Marcelo and Carvajal.
Completely different game.
Is hard to defend against a team with top full backs that can play parts of the game as wide midfielders and wingers.

How would of Marcelo and Carvajal made a difference when we just hoofed the ball long in the first half?

 

[PlayerOne]

Ours have improved massively too. We couldnt score for our lives under LVG and last season we improved slightly. This season we're scoring loads. Defensively we are solid too, which is a big improvement. Take nothing away from Jose, we've improved under him. Pity we didnt have a Kompany, Silva, Aguero and De Bruyne in our ranks when Jose came in...

I'm not denying some players haven't improved under him. We have some great players too. Any time would take the likes of Pogba, Martial, Rashford and DDG.

I want to Jose to stay on next season and bulid on what he has here, will be interesting to see what his vision is. But I'll say this, swap Pep and Jose, would City be playing the way they are and running away with the league in December?

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Anyone who uses money as an excuse needs to have a word with themselves. City have simply bought better than us. A lot of our problems in the transfer market boil down to poor scouting from our staff. You just wonder what alot of our scouts actually do as we continue to target and sign the wrong players.

And yet we still have 35 points from 16 games....If we keep going like this we"ll end up with 85 points this season.Thats 16 points more than last season,that's excellent progress in my view.Citys progress has been extraordinary,our progress has been excellent...We can't knock Jose down if we finish 2nd with 16-18 points more than last season...It would be our best league campaign since SAF left by a mile....

 

[mayurr]

No I got your point. You missed mine. Matic and Ibra are not long term solutions. They are quick fixes until we can get in the type of player required. As for Pep bringing in attacking talent, Jesus, Mane and Sterling. Walker and the keeper. Other than that they were solid as far as a spine of a team is concerned. They had Kompany, Silva, De Bruyne and Aguero. We didnt have that, so thats task 1 for Jose. We're still playing catch up. Matic and Ibra are stop gaps until we can find long term solutions to those positions.

You still missed it. You are failing to understand that with mourinho and his brand of football you are never going to catch city. The two teams are on completely different paths.

Back to your comment, type of player required? Your mean mourinho's type of player? The one that may not provide anything going forward but would fit in the defensive style? You really think changing players would really solve your problem of boring pragmatic football? You think with improve players mourinho wont park the bus?

 

[RooneyLegend]

A bench player? So you think Matic wouldnt play there this season? Being benched isnt always about form. Arent Luiz and Costa benched there too at the minute?

That's Mata not Matic.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

You still missed it. You are failing to understand that with mourinho and his brand of football you are never going to catch city. The two teams are on completely different paths.

Back to your comment, type of player required? Your mean mourinho's type of player? The one that may not provide anything going forward but would fit in the defensive style? You really think changing players would really solve your problem of boring pragmatic football? You think with improve players mourinho wont park the bus?

After Guardiola's Barca won the league Mourinho's Madrid caught them the very next season.

 

[edgar allan]

of course he calls the shots, but who the hell do you think is giving him the player reports and information for him to do so? You think he's off watching all these players himself and going "I want him" to the board or what? Maybe we should fire our scouts, they seem pointless if Jose's doing all their work for them!

So, my point is maybe Jose should be added to your list of scouts and systems at fault.

Maybe just maybe the issue could be that our managers formation and tactics don't get the best out of the signings.