Vaccinated Players

justsomebloke

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That's not how risk management works. You take the percentage of players who had serious long term impacts of covid and then compare it to the percentage risk the vaccines have. To just pick single players is anecdotal evidence. There are also cases of pro athletes with the vaccine having struggles. Doesn't mean it is bad. But your argumentation here is simply anecdotal and not worth anything.

Risk management works by comparing the data of those two together and then making a choice which is the "lesser evil". And I would assume in a billion dollar business that the teams and their medical staff does work on that risk assessment together with the players. In an ideal world at least.
Sound thinking in principle, but I guess I was taking it as understood that on a real world basis, the outcome of that risk assessment is given. Because there is not actually any rational basis for fearing the risk of side effects from vaccines more than the risks of Covid. Can you name even one anecdotal case of that?
 

tenpoless

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Negatives of vaccine:
1. People with actual medical conditions could have their situation worsen due to vaccine's side effects
2. Ouch me get needle under me skin
 
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Where are you getting that from?
Article says…

“In an email to top-flight clubs last week, the Premier League said: ’Only seven clubs' squads are more than 50% fully vaccinated, so we have a way to go’. “

(I should have said more than half/less?)
 

Maluco

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Fantastic example from Klopp/Liverpool. It’s so important to remember that the vaccine protects yourself AND others.

If you can take it, and you don’t, I would strongly suggest that you think about this aspect and what it may suggest about your attitude and the effect it could have on those around you.

It’s about more than just you.
 

MayosNoun

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I like what Klopp has said but it’s utter nonsense.

If you don’t get the vaccine it’s only harming yourself. The vaccine minimises risk of serious effects of Covid, it doesn’t stop you getting Covid and spreading the virus. Actually, having the vaccine makes it more likely to spread Covid as it reduces the likelihood of someone knowing they have the virus and therefore unlikely to self-isolate.

I have just received my booster jab (third vaccine and my flu jab) and have had a headache for a few days. If grown men footballers are afraid of having a headache or sore arm for a few days then they’re idiots. I don’t understand why people refuse the vaccine, it doesn’t make sense to me. You’re protecting yourself from a serious illness. It’s beyond stupidity.
 

Pexbo

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I like what Klopp has said but it’s utter nonsense.

If you don’t get the vaccine it’s only harming yourself. The vaccine minimises risk of serious effects of Covid, it doesn’t stop you getting Covid and spreading the virus. Actually, having the vaccine makes it more likely to spread Covid as it reduces the likelihood of someone knowing they have the virus and therefore unlikely to self-isolate.

I have just received my booster jab (third vaccine and my flu jab) and have had a headache for a few days. If grown men footballers are afraid of having a headache or sore arm for a few days then they’re idiots. I don’t understand why people refuse the vaccine, it doesn’t make sense to me. You’re protecting yourself from a serious illness. It’s beyond stupidity.
Would love to see your sources on this. First I’ve ever heard of it.
 

fergieisold

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I like what Klopp has said but it’s utter nonsense.

If you don’t get the vaccine it’s only harming yourself. The vaccine minimises risk of serious effects of Covid, it doesn’t stop you getting Covid and spreading the virus. Actually, having the vaccine makes it more likely to spread Covid as it reduces the likelihood of someone knowing they have the virus and therefore unlikely to self-isolate.

I have just received my booster jab (third vaccine and my flu jab) and have had a headache for a few days. If grown men footballers are afraid of having a headache or sore arm for a few days then they’re idiots. I don’t understand why people refuse the vaccine, it doesn’t make sense to me. You’re protecting yourself from a serious illness. It’s beyond stupidity.
Are your sources Facebook? You are spreading misinformation unfortunately.
 

MayosNoun

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Would love to see your sources on this. First I’ve ever heard of it.
It’s common sense. It has also been discussed at length in Scotland since a lot of the population got the second jab. There was a significant increase in infection rates as people returned to work unaware they had Covid as they had minimal symptoms.

If you don’t present with symptoms you are unlikely to self-isolate. Why would you?

If you’ve had two or three vaccines, you could have Covid right now and simply not know you have it. The vaccine is proven to be effective at minimising the symptoms. Therefore what would stop you going out to socialise today?
 

fergieisold

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It’s common sense. It has also been discussed at length in Scotland since a lot of the population got the second jab. There was a significant increase in infection rates as people returned to work unaware they had Covid as they had minimal symptoms.

If you don’t present with symptoms you are unlikely to self-isolate. Why would you?

If you’ve had two or three vaccines, you could have Covid right now and simply not know you have it. The vaccine is proven to be effective at minimising the symptoms. Therefore what would stop you going out to socialise today?
the problem is you’re not correct in saying the vaccine doesn’t stop you catching or spreading the virus. It does, but not at 100% efficiency
 

MayosNoun

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the problem is you’re not correct in saying the vaccine doesn’t stop you catching or spreading the virus. It does, but not at 100% efficiency
Since when?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...accinated-people-have-similar-levels-of-virus

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-08-19/double-jabbed-may-spread-covid-as-much-as-the-unvaccinated

https://apnews.com/article/science-health-coronavirus-pandemic-d9504519a8ae081f785ca012b5ef84d1

That only took a few seconds to find these. There will be thousands more. I’ll take advice from virologists and relevant scientists. The pandemic still requires people to be careful when vaccinated and as a large majority of the people are morons and disregard safety, it is more likely to spread in my opinion.
 

fergieisold

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Since when?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...accinated-people-have-similar-levels-of-virus

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-08-19/double-jabbed-may-spread-covid-as-much-as-the-unvaccinated

https://apnews.com/article/science-health-coronavirus-pandemic-d9504519a8ae081f785ca012b5ef84d1

That only took a few seconds to find these. There will be thousands more. I’ll take advice from virologists and relevant scientists. The pandemic still requires people to be careful when vaccinated and as a large majority of the people are morons and disregard safety, it is more likely to spread in my opinion.
I glanced through the first article. I think you’ve misinterpreted it. Breakthrough infections cause vaccinated people to potentially become infectious - more so with the delta variant. This doesn’t mean the vaccine isn’t blocking a good proportion of infections and therefore transmission.
 

Conor

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Since when?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...accinated-people-have-similar-levels-of-virus

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-08-19/double-jabbed-may-spread-covid-as-much-as-the-unvaccinated

https://apnews.com/article/science-health-coronavirus-pandemic-d9504519a8ae081f785ca012b5ef84d1

That only took a few seconds to find these. There will be thousands more. I’ll take advice from virologists and relevant scientists. The pandemic still requires people to be careful when vaccinated and as a large majority of the people are morons and disregard safety, it is more likely to spread in my opinion.
Stop spreading incorrect information with such an authoritative tone. Saying the vaccine does not aid in stopping the spread of the virus is a ridiculous statement.
 

MayosNoun

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Stop spreading incorrect information with such an authoritative tone. Saying the vaccine does not aid in stopping the spread of the virus is a ridiculous statement.
I am pro vaccine but I’m also not a moron.

I reckon scientific and factual research by virologists and scientists carried more weight that Conor from Redcafe. Therefore I’ll answer however I like.
 

MayosNoun

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I glanced through the first article. I think you’ve misinterpreted it. Breakthrough infections cause vaccinated people to potentially become infectious - more so with the delta variant. This doesn’t mean the vaccine isn’t blocking a good proportion of infections and therefore transmission.
My interpretation is clear from my initial post on the matter. Whilst the science remains unclear and this was not my point in the first place, there is sufficient evidence from professionals in the field to counter your argument.

However my point was behavioural and the impact having a second or third vaccine has on the public. Rarely, people are staying at home regardless of minor symptoms. There are individual who feel bulletproof due to the vaccine and leave their home regardless of symptoms because they feel the vaccine will protect them. This is where the likelihood is that people who have the vaccine will continue to spread the virus. You can delve into the science if you like, there is evidence posted to counter that. However my main point, which you seemed to skip by, was that people are simply not listening to advice anymore. You only have to attend a social gathering or sporting event to see this. People do not appear to have the same element of fear to leave their home as as they may have had prior to Jan 2021 for example.
 

kouroux

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My interpretation is clear from my initial post on the matter. Whilst the science remains unclear and this was not my point in the first place, there is sufficient evidence from professionals in the field to counter your argument.

However my point was behavioural and the impact having a second or third vaccine has on the public. Rarely, people are staying at home regardless of minor symptoms. There are individual who feel bulletproof due to the vaccine and leave their home regardless of symptoms because they feel the vaccine will protect them. This is where the likelihood is that people who have the vaccine will continue to spread the virus. You can delve into the science if you like, there is evidence posted to counter that. However my main point, which you seemed to skip by, was that people are simply not listening to advice anymore. You only have to attend a social gathering or sporting event to see this. People do not appear to have the same element of fear to leave their home as as they may have had prior to Jan 2021 for example.
You fail to mention all the people who don't have the luxury of staying and working from home. The people who go out when they're vaxxed, a lot of them do it because they have to
 

Conor

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I am pro vaccine but I’m also not a moron.

I reckon scientific and factual research by virologists and scientists carried more weight that Conor from Redcafe. Therefore I’ll answer however I like.
I've gone through all of the links you've posted, and every one of them says that someone that has been vaccinated and catches covid can carry a similar viral load to someone that isn't vaccinated, not one of them says a thing about vaccinations having no effect on the ability of someone to catch covid. A good way to support an argument is to post relevant links to back it up, rather than stuff that has nothing to do with what you're claiming?
 

11101

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Since when?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...accinated-people-have-similar-levels-of-virus

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-08-19/double-jabbed-may-spread-covid-as-much-as-the-unvaccinated

https://apnews.com/article/science-health-coronavirus-pandemic-d9504519a8ae081f785ca012b5ef84d1

That only took a few seconds to find these. There will be thousands more. I’ll take advice from virologists and relevant scientists. The pandemic still requires people to be careful when vaccinated and as a large majority of the people are morons and disregard safety, it is more likely to spread in my opinion.
I think you need to read through those links again, you are completely misunderstanding what they are saying.

They are saying that vaccinated people can, in an ideal scenario, carry and transmit the same levels of the virus as unvaccinated people. It is not saying that vaccinated people spread the virus the same as unvaccinated people. For example, 50 in 100 unvaccinated people may carry 50 viral particles. 1 in 100 vaccinated people may carry 50 viral particles. It's true to say vaccinated individuals may carry the same viral load as unvaccinated people, but it is not true to say vaccinated people as a group are equally likely to spread the virus. We already know the vaccine reduces the likelihood of transmission significantly.
 

fergieisold

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My interpretation is clear from my initial post on the matter. Whilst the science remains unclear and this was not my point in the first place, there is sufficient evidence from professionals in the field to counter your argument.

However my point was behavioural and the impact having a second or third vaccine has on the public. Rarely, people are staying at home regardless of minor symptoms. There are individual who feel bulletproof due to the vaccine and leave their home regardless of symptoms because they feel the vaccine will protect them. This is where the likelihood is that people who have the vaccine will continue to spread the virus. You can delve into the science if you like, there is evidence posted to counter that. However my main point, which you seemed to skip by, was that people are simply not listening to advice anymore. You only have to attend a social gathering or sporting event to see this. People do not appear to have the same element of fear to leave their home as as they may have had prior to Jan 2021 for example.
You stated the vaccine doesn’t stop you from catching or spreading the virus. This is incorrect. I’m not sure I can put it any more simply.
 

Ekkie Thump

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I am pro vaccine but I’m also not a moron.

I reckon scientific and factual research by virologists and scientists carried more weight that Conor from Redcafe. Therefore I’ll answer however I like.
Why haven't you linked the countless reports and studies that say it does reduce transmission. Are they all written by Conor on Redcafe?

Here's a random 5 from the google front page of "do vaccines reduce transmission?"

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...kely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...-with-vaccine-type-and-SARS-CoV-2-strain.aspx
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2106757
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...ines-very-effective-hinder-spread-studies-say

.....and on and on ad infinitum.
 

awop

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How do we know Conor is not being paid by big pharma to trick us ?
 

the_cliff

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I've been vaccinated myself but believe in the right of choice and free will. Nobody should force the vaccine on anyone if they choose not to then they also face the consequences of not getting it. Why do so many people care so much about what other people choose to do. Let them be.
 

justsomebloke

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Jurgen Klopp: Liverpool manager says vaccine is 'not a limit on freedom' - BBC Sport

Klopp telling it as it is. Bravo.

In marked contrast to Southgates unbelievable and cowardly "there's so much different information out there that it's hard to know what to believe".

It isn't. If you want to know, you go to places like NHS, Public Health England, WHO, CDC, ECDC or any number of scientifically reputable sources. They will all tell you the same thing. And you don't ever get your information about important aspects of reality from social media.
 

Ananke

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I am pro vaccine but I’m also not a moron.

I reckon scientific and factual research by virologists and scientists carried more weight that Conor from Redcafe. Therefore I’ll answer however I like.
Think I'm gonna go with @Conor on this one after reading the links you posted. They all scream of a desperate google attempt to find evidence to support your theory, and you deserve to be called out on it.
 

TMDaines

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I like what Klopp has said but it’s utter nonsense.

If you don’t get the vaccine it’s only harming yourself. The vaccine minimises risk of serious effects of Covid, it doesn’t stop you getting Covid and spreading the virus. Actually, having the vaccine makes it more likely to spread Covid as it reduces the likelihood of someone knowing they have the virus and therefore unlikely to self-isolate.

I have just received my booster jab (third vaccine and my flu jab) and have had a headache for a few days. If grown men footballers are afraid of having a headache or sore arm for a few days then they’re idiots. I don’t understand why people refuse the vaccine, it doesn’t make sense to me. You’re protecting yourself from a serious illness. It’s beyond stupidity.
This is complete and utter nonsense. Hopefully a mod will step in and delete it, if you won't.
 

TMDaines

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I've been vaccinated myself but believe in the right of choice and free will. Nobody should force the vaccine on anyone if they choose not to then they also face the consequences of not getting it. Why do so many people care so much about what other people choose to do. Let them be.
Probably for the same reason we don't allow people to run around with other infectious diseases, drink drive, or commit any manner of terrible crimes onto others.

Jurgen Klopp: Liverpool manager says vaccine is 'not a limit on freedom' - BBC Sport

Klopp telling it as it is. Bravo.

In marked contrast to Southgates unbelievable and cowardly "there's so much different information out there that it's hard to know what to believe".

It isn't. If you want to know, you go to places like NHS, Public Health England, WHO, CDC, ECDC or any number of scientifically reputable sources. They will all tell you the same thing. And you don't ever get your information about important aspects of reality from social media.
 

Conor

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@MayosNoun as you have gotten the vaccine, I doubt you are an idiot, but it's pretty clear that you have misunderstood a key concept of the vaccination policy. Maybe you can just state that you got mixed up, and appreciate the point of having everyone vaccinated, and we can leave it at that? A much better outcome than you just ignoring loads of posts and leaving your incorrect ones there.
 

Offside

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I've been vaccinated myself but believe in the right of choice and free will. Nobody should force the vaccine on anyone if they choose not to then they also face the consequences of not getting it. Why do so many people care so much about what other people choose to do. Let them be.
When there’s absolutely no reason not to get it and the decision would be for the better of wider society you can see why people push for others to get the vaccine no?
 

Foxbatt

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NBA has got it right. No vaccine no playing. I also have a question? Is it compulsory for spectators in the stadium to be fully vaccinated?
 

Beachryan

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As I'm desparately trying to get my lil country over its vaccine hesistancy 'hill' and to a helpful number, this is how I've found it easiest to explain:
1. Yes, two individual, equally symptomatic patients - one vaccinated and one not - have been shown to have similar viral loads of covid - hence could spread it equally. BUT
2. Vaccinated people are less likely to catch covid AND less likely to develop as serious symptoms.
3. To demonstrate, if a population of 20 people all got exposed, three scenarios (just using rough rates):
a. All 20 are unvaccinated, likelyhood of maybe 16 catching covid and showing symptoms - hence 16 vectors to spread.
b. 10 vax'd, 10 not: 3 vax'd catch and display symptoms, 8 non-vax'd catch and display symptoms - hence 11 vectors to spread.
c. All 20 are vaccianted: 6 catch it and display symptoms, so 6 vectors.

That's why it's important for individuals who only care about their own health to get vax'd (to reduce transmission in the community) and how breakthrough patients having similar viral loads does NOT mean vaccinated are less likely to catch and develop symptoms.

Some of the reporting on this has been woeful. And then bad headlines are used by the inexplicably evil anti-vaxxers to promote their bizarre, literally murderous agenda.
 

Calidad

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I've been vaccinated myself but believe in the right of choice and free will. Nobody should force the vaccine on anyone if they choose not to then they also face the consequences of not getting it. Why do so many people care so much about what other people choose to do. Let them be.
I completely agree, and I reiterate - as long as people accept that not taking the vaccine may have consequences as to what they can or can’t do. So if they want to to jet off on a nice sunny holiday, but said destination will only accept vaccinated people, then tough luck.
 

justsomebloke

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I've been vaccinated myself but believe in the right of choice and free will. Nobody should force the vaccine on anyone if they choose not to then they also face the consequences of not getting it. Why do so many people care so much about what other people choose to do. Let them be.
That'd be fair enough, if it was the case that taking the vaccine or not was something that impacted mainly on yourself. But that is not the case. You don't just run a greater risk of being infected, you also make yourself a much bigger direct risk of infecting others. And most crucially, if you don't reach a certain level of vaccination in the population as a whole, the benefits of the vaccine is drastically reduced for everyone. If you only reach 50-60%, the virus will continue to circulate and grow if unchecked, which means you still need to maintain restrictive measures to control it. Those affect everyone.

Fighting an epidemic is not something that you can meaningfully break down to the level of individual choice. It works collectively, or it doesn't work. And it's a complete illusion to think anyone can make choices for themselves in such a situation that affects only or primarily themselves. Personal choice is limited generally in the way that it does not extend to actions that are clearly harmful to others.
 

Solius

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I've been vaccinated myself but believe in the right of choice and free will. Nobody should force the vaccine on anyone if they choose not to then they also face the consequences of not getting it. Why do so many people care so much about what other people choose to do. Let them be.
Agreed, whilst we're at it why don't we just let drunk drivers do what they want. Free will and all. Let them be.