Vaccination of Squad

parkthebuslads

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I know this is a touchy subject on any SM forum but given money these guys are earning, the club should simply insist they all get vaxxed. Too much at stake.

What is a SM forum? :confused:
 

jojojo

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As extraordinarily highly paid professional athletes I don’t think we should cut them the same slack as your average ambivalent 20 something year old.

The cost to the club of any one of them missing a couple of weeks due to covid, or being below par for even longer is enormous. Plus daily testing means that asymptomatic cases will be just as disruptive as symptomatic illness. Which is not an issue for your average joe. And that’s without even getting into the catastrophe of a dressing room cluster of cases.

They should all be leaned on heavily to get a vaccine. And they should have been leaned on all summer long. It’s just not good enough for them to be allowed weeks or months to prevaricate. Never mind refuse altogether.
Oh I agree with all that. It's just that I'm not surprised they need leaning on, because a lot of people do. Including some who really should know better, but who've fallen down the social media rabbit holes.

I suspect most of them are more apathetic than anti, which should be easy to fix. Of course if any of them remain actively opposed, after their team talks, then I'll probably accuse their agents of manipulation/sabotage :wenger:
 

mav_9me

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Ok, I read some of this dipshits shit. He is claiming that there is a risk of DNA alteration due to transposon mediated insertion. Bullshit. Is there in infinitesimal chance that every circumstance could magically align for a single cell in your body to have an insertion event? Sure, but there is also an infinitesimal chance I could wake up tomorrow looking like (not fat)Ronaldo and married to Scarlett Johansson. Don't believe me. have a read:
Host-Virus Chimeric Events in SARS-CoV-2-Infected Cells Are Infrequent and Artifactual | Journal of Virology (asm.org)

The fact that something can happen, and the reality of if having a realistic chance of happening are 2 different things. mRNA vaccines are a miracle of modern science and are going to revolutionize our fight against infectious disease. We should be excited about the future of this technology.
Could not agree more. This is a historic achievement on par with discovery of antibiotics.
 

frostbite

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It should be a requirement for all the players to be vaccinated. By the FA, not just our team. It would send a positive message to the public. These players are making millions and they are role models, so they have obligations and it is reasonable to require vaccinations.
 

Red71

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The bar for effective has always been 1. preventing deaths 2. Preventing hospitalizations. And it does exceptionally well in both.

I bet you, you will ignore this post.
It doesn’t do exceptionally well in both…
 

Red71

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We will.

To everyone - No ridiculous anti-vaccination posts here, please. Go and post that rubbish on your Facebook feed.
Nice one Penna…sounds like something Facebook would say…
 

Red71

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I know, it’s already begun. Somebody has already mentioned a “trial period” for the vaccine ending in 2023. One of the classic bogus “facts” going around.

Anyway, it’s an important topic and failure to vaccinate our players will lead to them missing games due to infection over the course of the season.
Genuinely curious, where have you seen the 2023 “trial period” revealed as a “bogus fact”?
 

Will Singh

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Luckily for us in the U.K we have freedom of speech and expression. Judging by some comments I think they live in a country that doesn’t let them decide for themselves….!
 

Bastian

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Genuinely curious, where have you seen the 2023 “trial period” revealed as a “bogus fact”?
Hardly from any reputable source. It's well documented that the vaccines haven't been granted regulatory approval, still being distributed under emergency access.

Given how things are currently, vaccinated people transmitting the virus contrary to previous hopes, I don't understand how you can demand of particular people to get vaccinated. If it was conclusive that getting vaccinated prevented you from transmitting the virus, it would be a different story, leaving aside the fact that the vaccines are still an unknown quantity with regards to standard research and trialling. For one thing, there will hardly be long-term studies with control groups.

And I'm not speaking as an anti-anything, other than wanting all the facts (not the rhetoric and the moralising) presented in transparency with honesty.

edit: given there was a rant-in-waiting there (@WI_Red) I will add that I took vaccination at the earliest opportunity. I still believe it's a risk, but the far lesser risk.
 
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WI_Red

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It's Friday, it's time to party...
I was mid rant on @Bastian's post, but you are right, it's Friday. I am going to go get whisky and walk the dog instead. We are doomed. The loss of faith in science and scientists in lieu of some fecktard on facebook will doom us as a species. I can tell people I have a PhD in this field, calmly explain how vaccines work, copy/pasta volumes of peer reviewed articles, but at the end of the day uncle Bob in Alabama or Tucker fecking Carlson holds more sway. I am going to go whisky now.
 

Dan-Utd

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"sack em if they don't get vaccinated"

FFS some people live in the dark ages.

Vaccines are great but we also know the more people vaccinated the more it can force the virus into mutating into a variant that evades the vaccine - so when people say getting the vaccine will help end all this - it's not fully true.

Vaccines protect the person who has had it but when people claim getting vaccinated will save other peoples lives - this again isn't fully true because it doesn't stop transmission completely.

It's wrong to encourage people to get vaccinated by saying it will save other peoples lives and for me that's as bad as being an anti vaxxer.

Adults should make their own decisions, if they are stupid enough to think Covid is a hoax and crap like that after all this time - fine but I have absolutely no issue with people who look after themselves thinking they can beat Covid.

Imagine telling someone he's sacked if he doesn't get vaccinated, so he gets vaccinated and then dies of a blood clot, this is why I think it should be the persons choice, because people should make their own decisions and whether that turns out to be the right or wrong decision - it was their own decision.
 

WI_Red

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"sack em if they don't get vaccinated"

FFS some people live in the dark ages.

Vaccines are great but we also know the more people vaccinated the more it can force the virus into mutating into a variant that evades the vaccine - so when people say getting the vaccine will help end all this - it's not fully true.
yes vaccinations put selective pressure on the virus which is why a rapid, complete vaccination effort is an absolute must. The longer that people take to get vaccinated to more time the virus has to adapt to selective pressure. There is literal physical proof of this working on the arms of pretty much anyone over 60. We globally eradicated smallpox. Sad to say that if we tried that now it would fail due to this kind of mindset.

Vaccines protect the person who has had it but when people claim getting vaccinated will save other peoples lives - this again isn't fully true because it doesn't stop transmission completely.
absolutely not true. Immunocompromised individuals, people on immunosuppressive medication, and others with various diseases are unable to get vaccinated. These individuals absolutely count on the rest of us to be responsible by getting vaccinated. Also, vaccinations reduce the window in which, and the frequency by which, a person can infect others. It is by reducing these windows, combined with the personal protection provided, that allow vaccines to end disease.

It's wrong to encourage people to get vaccinated by saying it will save other peoples lives and for me that's as bad as being an anti vaxxer.
addressed above and such a horrific take I struggle to not scream

Adults should make their own decisions, if they are stupid enough to think Covid is a hoax and crap like that after all this time - fine but I have absolutely no issue with people who look after themselves thinking they can beat Covid.

Imagine telling someone he's sacked if he doesn't get vaccinated, so he gets vaccinated and then dies of a blood clot, this is why I think it should be the persons choice, because people should make their own decisions and whether that turns out to be the right or wrong decision - it was their own decision.
I’m done. We are all fecked.
 

mav_9me

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I was mid rant on @Bastian's post, but you are right, it's Friday. I am going to go get whisky and walk the dog instead. We are doomed. The loss of faith in science and scientists in lieu of some fecktard on facebook will doom us as a species. I can tell people I have a PhD in this field, calmly explain how vaccines work, copy/pasta volumes of peer reviewed articles, but at the end of the day uncle Bob in Alabama or Tucker fecking Carlson holds more sway. I am going to go whisky now.
Strong believer in that.

I hope this feeling is due to amplification by social media and this has always existed.
 

mav_9me

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Hardly from any reputable source. It's well documented that the vaccines haven't been granted regulatory approval, still being distributed under emergency access.

Given how things are currently, vaccinated people transmitting the virus contrary to previous hopes, I don't understand how you can demand of particular people to get vaccinated. If it was conclusive that getting vaccinated prevented you from transmitting the virus, it would be a different story, leaving aside the fact that the vaccines are still an unknown quantity with regards to standard research and trialling. For one thing, there will hardly be long-term studies with control groups.

And I'm not speaking as an anti-anything, other than wanting all the facts (not the rhetoric and the moralising) presented in transparency with honesty.

edit: given there was a rant-in-waiting there (@WI_Red) I will add that I took vaccination at the earliest opportunity. I still believe it's a risk, but the far lesser risk.
Edit: if we are talking about any transmission, then yes. But transmission is nevertheless not as much as in unvaccinated



 
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WI_Red

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Wasn't aware of this. Can you refer me to a source so I can read up on that.
Because you asked nicely :) I will put off this lovely “Scotch style” Alabama whiskey for a few.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2107058

Essentially what this paper, and many like it, show is that the viral load of a vaccinated person is significantly lower than an unvaccinated person. Also, and I can’t remember if this paper looked at it, the length of active infection is also reduced. By reducing the viral load, and length of time active virus persists, we reduce the length of time a person is infectious and also how infectious they are.
 

Cheimoon

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Could not agree more. This is a historic achievement on par with discovery of antibiotics.
My daughter had to do a presentation on 'her idol' at primary school. She had no idea who to pick (she's in third grade), so we suggested Katalin Karikó and she went with it. Next, my wife found out she knows someone on LinkedIn who knows Karikó, so my wife used that connection to tell Karikó about the presentation. She actually responded and was quite happy about it. She seemed like a lovely person. And my daughter is now definitely rooting for her to get that Nobel that she absolutely deserves! (Not that my daughter knows what a Nobel is, but anyway. :) )
Look at @Tom Cato causally dropping that girlfriend reference. Ooh la la.
See above.
 

WI_Red

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My daughter had to do a presentation on 'her idol' at primary school. She had no idea who to pick (she's in third grade), so we suggested Katalin Karikó and she went with it. Next, my wife found out she knows someone on LinkedIn who knows Karikó, so my wife used that connection to tell Karikó about the presentation. She actually responded and was quite happy about it. She seemed like a lovely person. And my daughter is now definitely rooting for her to get that Nobel that she absolutely deserves! (Not that my daughter knows what a Nobel is, but anyway. :) )
Along with (and I am going to butcher this) Turechi(??) and Suhin
 

mav_9me

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My daughter had to do a presentation on 'her idol' at primary school. She had no idea who to pick (she's in third grade), so we suggested Katalin Karikó and she went with it. Next, my wife found out she knows someone on LinkedIn who knows Karikó, so my wife used that connection to tell Karikó about the presentation. She actually responded and was quite happy about it. She seemed like a lovely person. And my daughter is now definitely rooting for her to get that Nobel that she absolutely deserves! (Not that my daughter knows what a Nobel is, but anyway. :) )

See above.
Guaranteed.
 

Cheimoon

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unfortunately it isnt that black and white. What to do when experts who have authority claim the opposite? I think the main concern here is that this ‘vaccin’ is what they call ‘gen therapy’ which has unresearched long term effects.

what makes things even more complicated is that they are now reporting that vaccinated people are not protected against other variants and that they can still transmit the virus even when fully vaccinated.

https://apnews.com/article/science-health-coronavirus-pandemic-d9504519a8ae081f785ca012b5ef84d1

therefore I would have to respectfully disagree with your argument there.
That argument is meaningless in the context of this thread though. Apart from that the mRNA concerns seem wholly unfounded (per what's been posted before), there are now actually two, and soon three, types of vaccines available. So if any United player is worried about mRNA vaccines, they can take AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson, and soon also Novavax.
Hardly from any reputable source. It's well documented that the vaccines haven't been granted regulatory approval, still being distributed under emergency access.
You seem to misunderstand what this means - and it is indeed also misrepresented in that article. (I was wondering who this ends up in the BMJ, but it is explained in this article on Peter Doshi.) These vaccines haven't been given temporary permission in lieu of proper trials because of their importance; it's a procedural thing that has been fast tracked to accommodate a quick roll-out. The trials were fine and complete. This is why the EU's EMA, after taking a little longer, approved vaccines through a full permission. (Which Doshi conveniently omits to mention. Where he says 'Europe' in the fourth paragraph, he should have said 'Britain'.)

So what you're saying here...
the fact that the vaccines are still an unknown quantity with regards to standard research and trialling.
...is simply not true. The vaccines that have gone to market have gone through all the required trials and will not need to be further tested for the population groups that they have already been approved for. Yes, they've gone quicker through their trials than used to be customary, but that has actually been one of the benefits of COVID-19: it has pushed through progress in that field that will be lasting and will speed up trials considerably in the future.
 

Mercurial

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I can confirm that he’s talking absolute nonsense here, whoever he is. The licensed vaccines deliver RNA, not DNA. And it’s not possible for them to integrate with our genome. Assuming he really is as qualified as he claims, I’ll have to assume he is being deliberately misleading. Shame on him.

EDIT: Being as charitable as possible to what he says there it’s possible he’s talking about a different class of vaccines. That hasn’t yet produced a licensed vaccine. And someone else is using what he said out of context. In which case, shame on them.
Astra in fact delivers DNA using adenovirus vectors, same as Sputnik. That DNA the translates to mRNA insider the cells. Moderna & Pfizer deliver mRNA directly using artificiall lipid spheres.
 

Cheimoon

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Along with (and I am going to butcher this) Turechi(??) and Suhin
Oh yeah, absolutely, it will be shared. Karikó has stood out for me when I read about the subject (Weissman is another name here; although I have to admit I keep forgetting who's who and even had to look up Karikó's name again just now :houllier: ), but she hasn't been working in isolation, of course.
 

WI_Red

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Oh yeah, absolutely, it will be shared. Karikó has stood out for me when I read about the subject (Weissman is another name here; although I have to admit I keep forgetting who's who and even had to look up Karikó's name again just now :houllier: ), but she hasn't been working in isolation, of course.
Since the most amazingly annoying T-storm is literally sitting on top of us and not moving I guess I can post a bit more.

If anyone is interested this is a fascinating review of mRNA vaccine technology. Why fascinating? Because it came out in January of 2018!!! Even then there was big excitement around the topic. The sticking point was the carrier system. The efficacy of injected mRNA had been known since the 90's, but human trials showed frustratingly lower antibody generation compared to the earlier animal models. THAT is the secret sauce of these vaccines. Moderna (who makes an appearance in the paper) and Pfizer/Biontech "cracked" the code of finding a carrier that could both get the mRNA safely into cells and also boost immunogenicity.

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology | Nature Reviews Drug Discovery
 

Mercurial

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Since the most amazingly annoying T-storm is literally sitting on top of us and not moving I guess I can post a bit more.

If anyone is interested this is a fascinating review of mRNA vaccine technology. Why fascinating? Because it came out in January of 2018!!! Even then there was big excitement around the topic. The sticking point was the carrier system. The efficacy of injected mRNA had been known since the 90's, but human trials showed frustratingly lower antibody generation compared to the earlier animal models. THAT is the secret sauce of these vaccines. Moderna (who makes an appearance in the paper) and Pfizer/Biontech "cracked" the code of finding a carrier that could both get the mRNA safely into cells and also boost immunogenicity.

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology | Nature Reviews Drug Discovery
Here in Sweden no reNewed government purchase of DNA-Vector based Covid Vaccine (mainly AstraZeneca) will happen once the current national stock runs out. It's only going to be mRNA vaccines going forward. It's indeed nice tech, efficient and the way of the future for many types of treatments, not only vaccines.
 

The Red Thinker

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Vaccine deniers will be the sole reason why this pandemic will rage on for a decade.

Right now, it's the Delta variant. It's spreading and spreading fast. What it turns into next nobody knows. Currently the vaccines prevent significant damage upon infection. But that could change the rate at which the anti-vaxxers joyfully carry and spread the disease.

Let's get this one fact really clear. A vaccine's primary motive is to prevent death. Then hospitalisation and finally, the spread of disease. Currently, until the delta variant, the vaccines could manage the viral load build up upon infection, but Delta has changed that according to an early study by the CDC. But, it's early! Lot more detail to come.

Here's the final point: If we don't take these vaccines now, prepare for a mutation that will screw us all. There is more of a realistic chance of an apocalyptic mutation than fecking DNA mutation ffs.

Our players need to be re-educated and told to vaccinate. If not, they can feck right off.
 

christy87

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Vaccine deniers will be the sole reason why this pandemic will rage on for a decade.

Right now, it's the Delta variant. It's spreading and spreading fast. What it turns into next nobody knows. Currently the vaccines prevent significant damage upon infection. But that could change the rate at which the anti-vaxxers joyfully carry and spread the disease.

Let's get this one fact really clear. A vaccine's primary motive is to prevent death. Then hospitalisation and finally, the spread of disease. Currently, until the delta variant, the vaccines could manage the viral load build up upon infection, but Delta has changed that according to an early study by the CDC. But, it's early! Lot more detail to come.

Here's the final point: If we don't take these vaccines now, prepare for a mutation that will screw us all. There is more of a realistic chance of an apocalyptic mutation than fecking DNA mutation ffs.

Our players need to be re-educated and told to vaccinate. If not, they can feck right off.
That’s because the groups that are anti vax are milking the money from these idiots at the moment and that money in turn is used to pump more fake news out there, which gets to more weak minded people who pre internet would be normal people but are now sucked down these rabbit holes.
 

The Red Thinker

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That’s because the groups that are anti vax are milking the money from these idiots at the moment and that money in turn is used to pump more fake news out there, which gets to more weak minded people who pre internet would be normal people but are now sucked down these rabbit holes.
Yes, I'm fully aware that Mark Zuckerberg will go down in history as hated and reviled as Hitler. Facebook has become an echo chamber so powerful that all it's users are brainwashed by their algorithms. They number in the billions...

One day far in the future, after an event horizon moment where people have done something so crazy and beyond the pale, because Joe from Crawley posted evidence of the contrary to what convention dictated... we will look back and wonder why...
 

WI_Red

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Yes, I'm fully aware that Mark Zuckerberg will go down in history as hated and reviled as Hitler. Facebook has become an echo chamber so powerful that all it's users are brainwashed by their algorithms. They number in the billions...

One day far in the future, after an event horizon moment where people have done something so crazy and beyond the pale, because Joe from Crawley posted evidence of the contrary to what convention dictated... we will look back and wonder why...
Or we skip through the event horizon back to the dark ages....

"You know, if we bathe and reduce the rodent population we might beat the plague!"

"Nah, Tucker from Foxshire say baths let the devil in and I saw Mary's post in the town square that rats aren't real."
 

reelworld

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Antivax for me remains the greatest mystery why it's still exist in this day and age.
It has been proved successfully over decades with how it handles polio and chickenpox, and yet somehow there are people who thinks, "nahh not buying that".