Van Dijk revisited

[Pexbo]

Is Van Dijks form pre-injury and Liverpool’s form post-injury a bit of a rain check for those that were proclaiming him the best EPL defender of all time?

13 of the 19 goals they have shipped in the league this season came in the 6 games he played, conceding just 6 in 7 since his injury.

They conceded just 3 in 6 in the UCL without him.


Considering how seamlessly Fabinho has slotted into his place, how much of the hyperbole surrounding Van Dijk can be attributed to his talent and how much to Klopp’s system?

 

[adexkola]

One day I'll create a thread to have a discussion on what players are great because they are just great, and what players are great because they play in these magical systems (that for some reason we haven't been able to implement at United for nearly a decade)

 

[Pexbo]

One day I'll create a thread to have a discussion on what players are great because they are just great, and what players are great because they play in these magical systems (that for some reason we haven't been able to implement at United for nearly a decade)

Oh great another Messi vs Ronaldo thread then

 

[adexkola]

Oh great another Messi vs Ronaldo thread then

That would be a win for me

 

[Sassy Colin]

Take out that one game, shit happens, we also shipped 6 the same week, then the numbers look totally different.

Also, he plays for Liverpool, so who cares.

 

[adexkola]

VVD has had 2 seasons of brilliance at the CB position and it's telling IMO that all the laughing we had at Lovren's expense stopped, the season they won the CL and gave City a run.

To answer the question, a great system is not independent of the players, you can't have a great system with mediocre players. Klopp's system works because he has quality players at crucial positions in the team. That includes VVD. I'm even willing to acknowledge the quality of the likes of Henderson and Wijnaldum. It's not easy to do what they do.

Plus I think any conclusions made based on this weird system will be flawed. The players aren't playing in optimal conditions by their standards.

 

[Hoboman]

Very good player in great form playing in most efficient system built by world class manager.

 

[Bwuk]

I think a large part of that credit should be to Fabinho, who for me is one of the best players in his position around. Fantastic player.

 

[adexkola]

Very good player in great form playing in most efficient system built by world class manager.

How do you know this

 

[Buchan]

I think he’s vastly overrated and quite easily fifth or sixth on the list of all-time Premier League defenders, but I do think they’ll miss him in certain games against certain attackers, e.g. this weekend against Palace and Benteke. Fabinho doesn’t have the presence to deal with that powerful threat effectively, IMO.

Horses for courses, etc. etc.

 

[DRM]

He's a great defender but imho Alisson wouldve been a bigger loss. We've seen this season everytime he's been out how Liverpool's other GK's struggle

 

[Feed Me]

Is Kompany still the best PL centre half of all time?

 

[Zen86]

Defenders are partly a product of their surroundings. Put VVD in a shakey back line with little protection and he wouldn’t look half the player.

 

[adexkola]

Is Kompany still the best PL centre half of all time?

No

But who does that title fall to?

 

[adexkola]

Defenders are partly a product of their surroundings. Put VVD in a shakey back line with little protection and he wouldn’t look half the player.

What player does this not apply to? And regardless, he performed well enough at Southampton didn't he?

 

[DWelbz19]

I think he’s vastly overrated and quite easily fifth or sixth on the list of all-time Premier League defenders, but I do think they’ll miss him in certain games against certain attackers, e.g. this weekend against Palace and Benteke. Fabinho doesn’t have the presence to deal with that powerful threat effectively, IMO.

Horses for courses, etc. etc.

Benteke’s suspended, unfortunately.

 

[Buchan]

Benteke’s suspended, unfortunately.

Balls. Didn’t know that.

 

[harms]

Is Van Dijks form pre-injury and Liverpool’s form post-injury a bit of a rain check for those that were proclaiming him the best EPL defender of all time?

His peak was comparable to any of PL's best defenders (Rio, Vidić, Stam, Terry, Carvalho), but anyone who was proclaiming him the best EPL defender of all-time was either a Liverpool fan or a weirdo, really. He still has some time to try and claim that title, mind you, but I really doubt that he will.

Considering how seamlessly Fabinho has slotted into his place, how much of the hyperbole surrounding Van Dijk can be attributed to his talent and how much to Klopp’s system?

He certainly was the catalyst for their success, although Alisson's role in their transformation is understated. Klopp's system didn't work nearly as good with weaker individuals in those key positions.

 

[Zen86]

What player does this not apply to? And regardless, he performed well enough at Southampton didn't he?

Most players, but people tend to forget that when making comparisons between players. Maguire being the obvious comparison.

 

[harms]

I think a large part of that credit should be to Fabinho, who for me is one of the best players in his position around. Fantastic player.

That's also a fair shout.

 

[Feed Me]

No

But who does that title fall to?

My comment was more a tongue in cheek reflection on what recency bias looks like. When Kompany left City, that’s what many were saying.

Van Dijk will be better judged in retrospect, like any footballer, but I do think he has been overly lionised due to Liverpool’s relatively short lived domination and a lack of competition.

To my mind, for his playing style, influence, longevity and trophy haul, I don’t think you can look beyond Ferdinand.

 

[Bwuk]

That's also a fair shout.

Its scary because he’s adapted so well to the role, him and VvD could be some partnership.

 

[thepolice123]

I think this injury layoff might be good for him. He looked pretty off form at the start of the season.

 

[Bwuk]

I think this injury layoff might be good for him. He looked pretty off form at the start of the season.

I don’t think doing your ACL can ever be seen as a positive.

 

[el_loco_bielsa]

VVD has had 2 seasons of brilliance at the CB position and it's telling IMO that all the laughing we had at Lovren's expense stopped, the season they won the CL and gave City a run.

To answer the question, a great system is not independent of the players, you can't have a great system with mediocre players. Klopp's system works because he has quality players at crucial positions in the team. That includes VVD. I'm even willing to acknowledge the quality of the likes of Henderson and Wijnaldum. It's not easy to do what they do.

Plus I think any conclusions made based on this weird system will be flawed. The players aren't playing in optimal conditions by their standards.

Precisely this. No player in the history of the game is an island, completely independent of the system he plays in, the coach he plays for, the teammates he plays with. When assessing how good or bad a player he is you have to take all the other factors into play.

So VVD by any definition is one of the best centre backs of his generation. The fact that he has both elevated and been elevated by playing alongside world class players for one of the best coaches of his generation in a system which seems to be the current dominant system of its time is just something that goes hand in hand.

So Zlatan bombed at Barca, Henry bombed at juve, Maradona bombed at Barca, Messi bombs for Argentina - it would be silly to assess these players according to these periods in their careers.

I’m sure Maradona would have had a golden period at Barca if he hadn’t been playing for Lattek in a thug team (the Barca of the early 80s were one of the dirtiest, most violent teams of the last 100 years), Messi might have won a World Cup with Argentina settling the Messi vs Maradona debate if he‘d had world class players like Valdano and Burruchaga to take the load off him, etc etc.

It’s basically impossible to separate VVD from the coach and system and players he plays for/in/with, any more than you can have a debate about how great a player Cruyff was without discussing Neeskens and Krol and Michels and that whole Ajax total football tactical setup, all factors which were enormously responsible for turning him into the player he became.

 

[giorno]

VVD has had 2 seasons of brilliance at the CB position and it's telling IMO that all the laughing we had at Lovren's expense stopped, the season they won the CL and gave City a run.

To answer the question, a great system is not independent of the players, you can't have a great system with mediocre players. Klopp's system works because he has quality players at crucial positions in the team. That includes VVD. I'm even willing to acknowledge the quality of the likes of Henderson and Wijnaldum. It's not easy to do what they do.

Plus I think any conclusions made based on this weird system will be flawed. The players aren't playing in optimal conditions by their standards.

Thank you.

But also liverpool do have improved a lot defensively, collectively, hence they are now better able to make up for his absence. The biggest impact he had was psychological - the confidence and belief he instilled in the team.

Where they still miss him these days, big time, is in attack. He was their main central deep playmaker. Getting Thiago back should solve this though

 

[Hoboman]

How do you know this

By watching him play football

 

[thepolice123]

I don’t think doing your ACL can ever be seen as a positive.

Plenty of players have came back stronger from an ACL injury. Van Nistelrooy was one example for us.

Not saying the injury was good. I'm just saying the time off from football.

 

[Cloud7]

Who declared him the best PL defender of all time? I know the Liverpool loving media spout nonsense, but other than them (possibly), has there been anyone else actually saying that?

For me he's still behind the likes of Rio, Vidic, Terry, Kompany, Stam.

 

[Nani Nana]

Bit like saying the Anfield crowd is useless since LFC kept their home form without fans.

 

[JPRouve]

VVD has had 2 seasons of brilliance at the CB position and it's telling IMO that all the laughing we had at Lovren's expense stopped, the season they won the CL and gave City a run.

To answer the question, a great system is not independent of the players, you can't have a great system with mediocre players. Klopp's system works because he has quality players at crucial positions in the team. That includes VVD. I'm even willing to acknowledge the quality of the likes of Henderson and Wijnaldum. It's not easy to do what they do.

Plus I think any conclusions made based on this weird system will be flawed. The players aren't playing in optimal conditions by their standards.

That part is wrong and I'm pretty sure you know it. A great system is dependent on the players that you have in the sense that it needs to fit these particular players but a great system can be built for mediocre players, a system that is deemed great will elevate the level of the team at your disposal, that's what someone like Allardyce has been doing his entire career, he had great systems for bottom half PL footballers. Now that system of Allardyce may not and probably wouldn't work at a higher level with better players and conversely a "great" system for a particular group of top players may not and probably wouldn't work for lesser or different players.

 

[Gopher Brown]

I think he’s vastly overrated and quite easily fifth or sixth on the list of all-time Premier League defenders, but I do think they’ll miss him in certain games against certain attackers, e.g. this weekend against Palace and Benteke. Fabinho doesn’t have the presence to deal with that powerful threat effectively, IMO.

Horses for courses, etc. etc.

Which is it? Either he’s overrated or one of the best?

 

[golden_blunder]

They miss his threat from corners

For me Terry or Ferdinand is/was the very best CB of the PL era without a doubt

 

[Gio]

I wouldn't read much into Liverpool's mentally hungover defensive form since winning the title. They were always going to settle down once they got their groove back, but they will not relentlessly pick up clean sheets until Van Dijk is back. Either way I think he's comfortably in the top bracket of centre-halves the Premier League has seen alongside Ferdinand, Terry, Campbell, Vidic and Kompany (I'm sure others would throw Adams in too). The questions are really his longevity and the height of his peak. Comparing longevity he obviously falls well short:

PFA Team of the Year Nominations:

• Ferdinand 6 times
• Adams 4 times
• Terry 4 times
• Vidic 4 times
• Kompany 3 times
• Campbell 3 times
• Van Dijk 2 times

But his peak is much more compelling in this company: He's transformed a shaky defensive line. Notwithstanding the impact of Allison, nobody else in that group has had such a singular impact on the rest of their back 4. He's also transformed the rest of the team. Liverpool's compactness and high press is possible because Van Dijk can defend better than anyone on the half-way line. That's arguably the single biggest driver behind their 2 consecutive Champions League Finals and 196 points in 2 seasons. He has a 3-year peak that's only matched by Ferdinand for me.

 

[VeevaVee]

The real illusion due to their set up is Alisson's supposed brilliance.

All came about because of all their clean sheets, which he had very little to do with. Apparently he doesn't need to make any great saves (still not many to his name, by the way), because his positioning is so incredibly good he can close off the entire goal no matter what angle.

 

[giorno]

That part is wrong and I'm pretty sure you know it. A great system is dependent on the players that you have in the sense that it needs to fit these particular players but a great system can be built for mediocre players, a system that is deemed great will elevate the level of the team at your disposal,

No, he's right and you've got it backwards. A system can only ever be as good as the players execution. A great system is the one that maximizes the players strenghts and minimizes their weaknesses. There is no such thing as a system independent of the players. Now having said that, it is also true that there are systems more conducive to work successfully with a larger proportion of players

They miss his threat from corners

For me Terry or Ferdinand is/was the very best CB of the PL era without a doubt

And the long balls over the top

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Just a hipster defender really

 

[TheReligion]

Van Dijk revisited?

I thought hospital trips were restricted at the moment due to the coronavirus.

 

[Falcow]

He's a great defender but imho Alisson wouldve been a bigger loss. We've seen this season everytime he's been out how Liverpool's other GK's struggle

I've been saying this for a while, look at the CL defeat to Athletico, all of their wobbles coincidence with Alison missing. Though I think they will feel VVDs loss yet as they are shipping more goals. Spurs should have had 3 or 4 the other night.

Alison easily best keeper in PL....in my view.

 

[Borys]

But his peak is much more compelling in this company: He's transformed a shaky defensive line. Notwithstanding the impact of Allison, nobody else in that group has had such a singular impact on the rest of their back 4. He's also transformed the rest of the team. Liverpool's compactness and high press is possible because Van Dijk can defend better than anyone on the half-way line. That's arguably the single biggest driver behind their 2 consecutive Champions League Finals and 196 points in 2 seasons. He has a 3-year peak that's only matched by Ferdinand for me.

Defender worth breaking the bank for as far as United is concerned. Just replace any of Lindelof or Maguire with him and our defense is transformed.