I actually think the best discussion on the forum is going on in this thread. Years removed from the emotion of performances, fans are able to look back at what they thought at the time and how senseless it was. We bounced from manager to manager and style to style and backed every move the club made as 'obvious'. We have learned the hard lesson that a club needs to have a plan and that big name managers don't provide 'stability' and big name players don't 'guarantee trophies' and that there is no substitute for building a club over a few years with the manager as just another staff member. If we could take this lesson into the transfer thread that are suggesting we do 10 out and 10 in or worse, give ole the summer to 'get his players in' and sack him in November if form continues'
Van Gaal
- Thread starter bond19821982
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
You said he lost his spot to another youth prospect Joe Riley.
The truth isn’t a narrative, Riley played twice because the other full backs were injured then never played again, you expect praise for LVG for that which is just odd. You can’t blame Utd fans for that, it’s just reality of the situation. Why would we be impressed by that.
http://thepeoplesperson.com/2015/12/18/louis-van-gaal-smaller-squads-better-133415/
They say its not part of the plan.
They say its not part of the plan.
It wasn't LVG who sold him, so how is that his blame?
He debuted him in place of another youth prospect. Who's to say what would of happened with him with LVG, we'll never know.
I didn’t blame him for anything just stated what happened, he played twice because of injuries he now plays for Bradford in league 2, Thorpe played once and now plays in India, Weir played once and can’t get games in the Championship.
LVG didn’t play them unless he had to, Jose let them go so don’t see any need for blame or praise here give how their careers have gone. Shame it was LVG who let Zaha and Keane go that ruins narrative a bit.
LVG wasn’t going to turn these players into Xavi and Iniesta.
I'm pretty sure this nonsense only started coming out after it was clear the squad he'd destroyed/put together was no good for purpose. He started playing any youngster he could because he realised he got credit for playing youth.
No proof of what you said - He said something & you didn't believe him however that doesn't make what he said wrong either.
This absolute sh!te again. He gave anyone at the club who owned a pair of boots a debut. Young fellas that were nowhere near good enough to be on the OT turf.
A Clueless dinosaur
Can we not just move on and let that nightmare fade?
Lindgard
Rashford
Andreas Pereira = 4 years later, still not making it
Guillermo Varela = (signed by Moyes) Went to Penarol now with Copenhagen
Paddy McNair = (Championship player with Sunderland and now Middlesboro)
Saidy Janko = Went to Porto. Who the loaned him to Forest
Tom Thorpe = Indian Super League with ATK
Reece James = Wigan
Tyler Blackett = Reading
Donald Love = Sunderland. Relegated twice
Regan Poole = On loan at Newport
Cameron Borthwick-Jackson = On loan at Scunthorpe
James Weir = Hull
Joe Riley = Bradford City
Timothy Fosu-Mensah = On Loan at Fulham
Forgetting anyone?
A Clueless dinosaur
Can we not just move on and let that nightmare fade?
Lindgard
Rashford
Andreas Pereira = 4 years later, still not making it
Guillermo Varela = (signed by Moyes) Went to Penarol now with Copenhagen
Paddy McNair = (Championship player with Sunderland and now Middlesboro)
Saidy Janko = Went to Porto. Who the loaned him to Forest
Tom Thorpe = Indian Super League with ATK
Reece James = Wigan
Tyler Blackett = Reading
Donald Love = Sunderland. Relegated twice
Regan Poole = On loan at Newport
Cameron Borthwick-Jackson = On loan at Scunthorpe
James Weir = Hull
Joe Riley = Bradford City
Timothy Fosu-Mensah = On Loan at Fulham
Forgetting anyone?
The most damming thing is that the best youngster we had at that time, Zaha was sold by him and is now one of the best forwards in the league.
Never said he would turn them into Xavi & Iniesta. Closest we've had to either of them is Scholes arguably and those kind of players don't come around often. But in LVG we had a manager that had a vested interest in promoting and developing youth. With Jose's appointment that died on its arse.
So what if they debuted because of injuries, so did Giggs. What's your point? Almost every single youth player debuts in similar fashion, because more senior players ahead of them are injured, color me feckin shocked!
PS, Zaha wasn't a YTS...? If rumor is to be believed as well there was quite a bit of dodgy goings on with Zaha at the club as well.
So Zaha was a lost cause but someone playing in league two or in India is a missed opportunity by Jose, that makes sense and definitely isn’t a narrative. Keane as well had a bad game so he was obviously shit but anyone who Jose got rid of was probably good.
I’m just saying they played when everyone was injured and didn’t make the bench when they weren’t. That’s what happened, maybe in this mythical third LVG season players who haven’t cut it even at Championship level would have been playing but I doubt it. If LVG didn’t even deem them good enough for the bench why was Jose wrong to get rid of them.
Football is not a video game where players have this natural potential ability all the time. Plenty players would be good enough if they were given a chance.
Want an example?
People complain about Young still being our RB but Varela & TFM would still have been better than him. The only reason they are not is because Jose chucked them out soon as they saw them and trusted young instead.
Plenty players that have been good enough in the PL have struggled at other rubbish clubs - so just because a player is now a permanent fixture at a second degree club doesn't mean they were never good enough for United.
Footballers are human & if they are bought up the right way they have the ability to succeed art united alongside some of their natural abilities to play football well. If Ole or Giggs had taken over from LVG's 2nd season we would have Rashford, Martial & Lingard playing well alongside the likes of Tuenzebe and TFM or CBj etc.
LVG played all those players in one season & not two. That's was extraordinary work to literally go through players like a treadmill and finding some players that were good enough and some that were not.
@Leftback99
Zaha was lost at United and you saw it at his face and his haircut. He was scared and out of his sorts looking like David Moyes at a big club at a young age playing for managers that didn't believe in him because they didn't buy him straight away. He looked distraught and couldn't control a football whilst looki g like a less heavy version of Lukaku.
Zaha needed to go to build his career again - allowing himself to be the main man again at crystal Palace. The guy was lost at United.
It's not like he instantly started kicking on the following season at crystal Palace like Blind did for Ajax - he took his time and is still with crystal Palace with no one still buying him.
I forgot that Zaha and Keane have become household names like Salah and De bruyne who were sold off by Mourinho for Oscar etc? Lest I forget, he also sold off Lukaku, only for him to sign him ups once again.
I wouldn't have Zaha and Keane in my first 11 today, maybe as squad players however I doubt they would want squad roles.
Zaha was 'lost' but I bet you thought all the names above were brilliant. If LVG was such a great developer of youth he would have had patience with Zaha surely? He just didn't rate him because he's not got as great an eye for a good PL player as you think.
Am I right in saying he didn't play Van Dijk for the Netherlands? He thought Rojo was a better buy at centre back for us!
Shaqiri at Liverpool is the closest representative of how Zaha and Keane would be at United now.
Keane was also back to the championship like some of these players and wasn't better than Fosu Mensah before he eventually gained more experience and became better.
Moreover, some of these players especially CBJ and Fosu Mensah have had their career ruined by injuries.
And Regan Poole is still a player with a fantastic potential. He's been one of Newport's best defender this season and was arguably Newport's best player against a full strength Man City in the FA cup. He was part of the defence that kept out a full strength mancity side in the first half before their keeper dropped a clanger in the second half.
Van Gaal didn't rate Perriera and he was the one who let go janko, James Reece, Thorpe, Blackett etc after he gave them enough trials but they showed to be not good enough. At least, he had them play in preseason and despite their average display, he kept on trusting them in the EPL matches until it was obvious they weren't good enough. That wasn't definitely a coach who didn't plan for them.
Last edited:
Not at all. I don't think those players were brilliant. But LVG was going through players like a treadmill.
Players that should not have been loaned were CBj, TFM, Tuenzebe and Varela. Whether good or not end term - they hardly deserved to be dropped, sold and sent on loan almost instantly by the next manager and Jose is the reason we are still here without a RB or atleast some young CB. Those 4 had good games alongside Rashford, Lingard and Martial all in one season.
Zaha had struggled under SAF, Moyes and LVG. Ultimately needed a new start and a confidence boost. All Zaha is is another version of Depay.
One season and Jose sold him without even giving him a second season to try. Is say depay was and is better than Zaha.
I assume you’d rather have Weir, Riley and Thorpe back?. Would they be in your first eleven or just squad players?. I never said they were world class that’s you being defensive, just that their not playing in league 2 or India but decent Premier League players. I get it be much better if Jose sold those two but sadly he didn’t.
This is about LVG not what Mourinho did at Chelsea, that’s odd way to defend LVG because at the end of the day I made a valid point which you don’t like.
Last edited:
Zaha was signed by SAF but loaned straight back to Palace so he didn’t struggle under him.
So LVG was right to sell Zaha who he didn’t give an opportunity to, who was another version of Depay who Jose sold without giving him an opportunity to which was wrong. That’s fair and balanced.
I'd have CBJ that looked good in his first season under LVG and Varela or TFM at RB instead of Young at RB or a good cover for Shaw when we need a more attacking fullback. I'd also have Tuenzebe at CB by now as back up instead of relying on Bailly, Rojo, Jones and long term maybe even Lindelof.
LVG is the reason we don't have Evans and Keane, sound options at CB in the Premier League or Rafael at RB but instead we wasted £30m on Rojo and Darmian.
And when did I say what Jose did with depay was wrong?
We didn't need depay & he had plenty games under a previous manager to show he wasn't good enough. Zaha was rubbish on his loans and to this day his best season has been this one being the main man at crystal Palace and scoring 10 goals
.Depay got a season under LVG and Jose thought that was enough to judge him. LVG saw all he had to with Zaha and sold him. He scored 10 goals being the main man at crystal Palace - all the attack linked directly towards him - not even at RW
Exactly. I really don't know why people are still screaming for Zaha and Keane who wouldn't have developed into the decent players they are today without the experience they gained through a lot of playing time. Both players were just too raw. Blackett was raw as well but Van Gaal gave him a chance because he was left footed as well as McNair who was a midfielder hence it was thought he would translate his ball playing into the defence role but alas! they were all rubbish and Van Gaal had to move them away in the end. But it's nonsensical to say he didn't plan for youth players when we all saw with our very eyes how he gave the likes of Blackett James Reece, McNair plenty of game times, starting from the preseason matches.
Blind is better than everyone there.
They wouldn't have developed into the decent players they are today without lot of playing time. They were too raw. Didn't Van Gaal give them chance against Mk don side but they all looked terrible?
The likes of McNair, Weir, Thorpe etc were happy to play for the academy whenever they didn't make the first team whereas Zaha was already above the academy stage and needed playing time.
And when did I say what Jose did with depay was wrong?
We didn't need depay & he had plenty games under a previous manager to show he wasn't good enough. Zaha was rubbish on his loans and to this day his best season has been this one being the main man at crystal Palace and scoring 10 goals
Depay got a season under LVG and Jose thought that was enough to judge him. LVG saw all he had to with Zaha and sold him. He scored 10 goals being the main man at crystal Palace - all the attack linked directly towards him - not even at RW
So LVG couldn’t improve Zaha but he could improve all these players who can’t even get games in Championship, makes perfect sense.
What is the best season of every other LVG debutant?. Tell me one that betters Zaha or even Keane, you’d still play TFM even though he’s failed at Palace and Fulham but Zaha was rightly sold because of bad loan spells, again fair and balanced. CBJ has been bad on loan so how can any manager be blamed for not playing him, if that’s your criteria fine but you can’t it when it suits you.
Like I said at start that’s fair enough, not saying it’s right or wrong. Just the hypocrisy of people blaming Jose for moving on much less talented players without giving them a chance when LVG let better players go and is praised or excused for it.
Because these players that are struggling at other clubs now were not struggling at United mate. Zaha was struggling at United already at the season before and struggled for seasons after United as well. Same with Keane. The others though in LVG's second season were not struggling - we're doing well more than decent but were sold or put on loan almost instantly by Jose. Meaning we relied on many more older players.
Our back 4 was looking like this as something we could possibly rely on under the coaching of a different manager atleast as something to build or improve on
TFM/Varela - Smalling - Blind - Shaw/ CBJ
And that has changed in to
Young/dalot - Lindelof - Jones - shaw
If you believe the second one is better than the first then so be it - but whether it was an accident or planned; some of us believe we were seeing a team building of young players at United all within 3/4 of a season after the injury fiasco we went through.
These players were beating the older teams.
We had young defenders, young attackers everything except young midfielders all within ONE season.
We went from the galactico season 1 to LVG's youth football in one season and we ended up one spot lower than the season before. One spot and by a point or GD ( can't remember).
I was happy with that & no matter what anyone says - that can't change in me.
Nice job of avoiding the question, basically LVG was right to see a bad loan as reason to sell someone but Jose was wrong to.
All Jose did was assess that players he and LVG before him didn’t think were good enough to play regularly should be loaned out instead of kept around in case of an injury crisis like LVG. I’m fine with either, none of the players Jose let go have come back to haunt him.
Didn’t LVG concert Young into a fullback, he’s been left out, so have Rojo, Jones and Darmian. You can’t airbrush them from history although I wish we all could.
I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't have got rid. His football was shit but compared to Mou and Moyes he at least offered something resembling a long-term rebuild job. He promoted youth and while his signings didn't work out you could obviously see the long-term strategy he employed, including Giggs learning his trade as his assistant.
The sad thing is we sacked him because we didn't have the patience for finishing out of the Top 4. It's hardly like doing that provided the stability needed for it not to become the norm.
Hindsight is 20-20, etc.
The sad thing is we sacked him because we didn't have the patience for finishing out of the Top 4. It's hardly like doing that provided the stability needed for it not to become the norm.
Hindsight is 20-20, etc.
No that's not what I said - I said that those players I mentioned in that order was something we could build upon.
Something atleast resembling long term.
Again Zaha was not good enough for the manager before. Jose took players that were showing good signs and had a fairly good breakout season under LVG and put them all on loan.
The same thing was done with Ibra.
Fairly good break out season from the likes of Martial & Rashford & possibly Lingard as a squsd player - what does Jose do; without any of them struggling - puts them all permanently in positions that don't suit them whilst competing with each other. The only reason he did that is because they had such good break out seasons that he couldn't treat them like he did with TFM, CBJ, Varela and Tuenzebe. That's why he got rid of Depay ASAP because absolutely none of those players resemble a traditional Jose Mourinho player.
Zaha was sold because he struggled at United. By the time LVG got Zaha in his hands - he hadnt done particularly well at crystal Palace on loan, or United under Moyes, or on loan at Cardiff. Jose put alot of players instantly on loan not because they struggled here at United but because he was not his type of player.
That's your opinion and LVG didn't even buy him to play CB so it wasn't out of good judgement on that front.
That's okay still worked out as the best defence post SAF. Blind had already played as a LB, CB and CDM for Ajax.
Some achievement
. I actually liked Blind he's a better LB than Shaw.Never said he was a lost cause, just that there was some questionable rumors about him at the club.
He's been hit n miss at Palace, I'm unsure if he would still be good enough at a top level myself.
No idea why you are saying they weren't good enough for the bench, they often were. Hence they made their debuts and some played regularly for him during his stay as United manager.
There's a single match in a Cup Final where he opted for experience, What's your point? It's an extremely weak narrative to continually run with.
I mean in the 93-94 season, Alex Ferguson had an FA Cup Final against Chelsea. The only youth player involved in that game was Giggs. He debuted 3 or 4 other players that season but the only one to make Cup Final day was Giggs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FA_Cup_Final#Match_details
Reading this thread you would nearly forget that LVG played the most horrifically repulsive, boring, insipid, shit football that was ever witnessed at OT. And not because he didn't have the players to do any better, but because that was how he wanted them to play.
Either peoples memories are short or they are the deluded that professed how wonderful the Emperors new clothes were.
Either peoples memories are short or they are the deluded that professed how wonderful the Emperors new clothes were.
He was also a better DMF than Matic and better CB than Bailly.Some achievement
Forums are full of fickle fans, which is annoying in itself, but the absolute obsession on this forum with constantly asking how things compare to other years is so irritating.
You're spot on. Van Gaals football was the worst ever. Pure stagnation, possession for no reason, a couple of shots a game if that, seemingly 0-0 at half time every single game at Old Trafford, and many 0-0s at full time.
Jose's football was far better! That says it all.
But you left out a lot of the players who were actually playing, players LVG bought and played regularly. That’s what LVG left to build on.
While I agree LVG is a better fit for long-term project than Moyes and Mourinho, mainly because of his consistent infusion of younger players into the first team/squad. So that's really a natural expected result.
Yet, I'm also confident he'll definitely ruin it. This is based on what he's doing with the United team in his two seasons.
Yet, I'm also confident he'll definitely ruin it. This is based on what he's doing with the United team in his two seasons.
1. Career of young players.
True, he gave lots of chances to the young players.. but it's also true he will drop and replace the earlier young players with newer young players, like flies easily. Just look at all the players at United he gave chances to, most of 'em failed during his time seemingly going out of the door -- he was sacked afterwards so we can't be sure 100% if he's going to sell em.
2. Continual retention of that dreadful boring philosophy football.
Yeah, all his young players will undergo the same school of learning. If they don't follow, they'll get drop as simple as that, or at best just get scolded eg. Rashford. Plenty of young players at that time success at first then no longer seen nor heard after one bad game.. or after pre-season. Many of our older players followed it and we got it the worst. Wouldn't surprise me to see Rashford after 2 or 3 seasons playing the same boring mechanical/robotic way of playing, his flair attributes being flushed out. There are other younger players who couldn't or didn't want to follow it. For the older players -- happened to the likes of Blind who showed it in his first season (almost none in 2nd), and Herrera who is the best example of this. Player Restrictions.
3. Will also continue bringing in and maintaining older average players.
See expired Bastian, average Schneiderlin and limited Darmian. Also the usual suspects eg. Young, Jones... also Rooney who is the permanent starter.
(*not saying there are no good buys eg. Romero is good.)
4. Player management is outdated. Clashes with players.
I think his style is just not fitting with many players. Idk why but there were many clashes he had with his players who cannot take it and follow. It's too mechanical isn't helping.
5. Overall, long-term, he'll bring down the football level of our team.
We're going downwards to become a mid-table team with exciting youngsters that changes every seasons. No more a top level team or at least just beneath it, just a top club with big money.
6. Also, He'll be continuing his work in molding United into a joke team.
Yeah, us going to be a clown team with many other football fans ridiculed and make fun of is certain with him in charge. Football, his interviews and manners, bizarre decisions makings eg. Captain Rooney always, Phil Jones at corner kick.... endless embarrassing list.
7. Likely we'll also in the longest run, become a selling club that sells many young players in one go, and a willing buyer club of average footballers.
True, he gave lots of chances to the young players.. but it's also true he will drop and replace the earlier young players with newer young players, like flies easily. Just look at all the players at United he gave chances to, most of 'em failed during his time seemingly going out of the door -- he was sacked afterwards so we can't be sure 100% if he's going to sell em.
2. Continual retention of that dreadful boring philosophy football.
Yeah, all his young players will undergo the same school of learning. If they don't follow, they'll get drop as simple as that, or at best just get scolded eg. Rashford. Plenty of young players at that time success at first then no longer seen nor heard after one bad game.. or after pre-season. Many of our older players followed it and we got it the worst. Wouldn't surprise me to see Rashford after 2 or 3 seasons playing the same boring mechanical/robotic way of playing, his flair attributes being flushed out. There are other younger players who couldn't or didn't want to follow it. For the older players -- happened to the likes of Blind who showed it in his first season (almost none in 2nd), and Herrera who is the best example of this. Player Restrictions.
3. Will also continue bringing in and maintaining older average players.
See expired Bastian, average Schneiderlin and limited Darmian. Also the usual suspects eg. Young, Jones... also Rooney who is the permanent starter.
(*not saying there are no good buys eg. Romero is good.)
4. Player management is outdated. Clashes with players.
I think his style is just not fitting with many players. Idk why but there were many clashes he had with his players who cannot take it and follow. It's too mechanical isn't helping.
5. Overall, long-term, he'll bring down the football level of our team.
We're going downwards to become a mid-table team with exciting youngsters that changes every seasons. No more a top level team or at least just beneath it, just a top club with big money.
6. Also, He'll be continuing his work in molding United into a joke team.
Yeah, us going to be a clown team with many other football fans ridiculed and make fun of is certain with him in charge. Football, his interviews and manners, bizarre decisions makings eg. Captain Rooney always, Phil Jones at corner kick.... endless embarrassing list.
7. Likely we'll also in the longest run, become a selling club that sells many young players in one go, and a willing buyer club of average footballers.
Last edited: