Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by bond19821982, Apr 14, 2019.
Both disastrous seasons, but you want to make one out as great.
When your absolutely snookered just make up sentiments that were never said.
LVG just done a better job than Jose for me but folks bizarrely praised Jose's tenure in comparison.
The club was far healthier with LVG leaving it than when Jose left it in December last and that is an absolute fact.
If folks are honest it comes down to a simple subconscious factor and folks hate LVG unfairly for it.
Jose was the supporters choice. The vast majority demanded Jose for years! He was the chosen one wasn't he?
Jose failed badly, there was far greater expectations on Jose than any other and he failed miserably and it kills folks to think back to Dec 2015 when they were singing his name whilst LVG was manager, buying feckin Jose / United scarves with LVG still here.
When Jose fecks up, standard reaction now is to just point the finger of blame at the board ignoring the fact it was an appointment the vast majority of our fan base demanded be made.
It was healthier before LVG started and spent £250m to end up with a worse squad.
This. Watching us was boring as hell, but there was a system in place to (try to) control a game. We lacked the quality that could take it to the next level. In 2014 WC he had Robben, Di Maria should have been that but we know what happened.
We failed in the transfer stakes and reverted to results first without addressing the quality issue so here we are, neither here nor there, and looking ordinary against Huddersfield.
I don't see a big difference with our youth players really. It might help us in the future, but it is very hard to know what he did with them. It would also be other coaches that would do that job. Maybe LVG had a good eye for picking good coaches, but it is really hard to tell and know.
I think the problem with LVG is that he would weaken our first team even more with time. That could allow for young players to get chances, but the risk is very high. His tactics and ideas to win games also didn't work out at all most of the time and he would not have changed.
The main reason why LVG had some sucess in terms of results was due to the league being very weak at that time. All the other top teams failed in europe just like us and they all failed in the FA cup too. We had the most easy run ever to win the Fa cup. Also our opponents had injures and terrible league form when we did face them too. I think Palace did barely win any games in the league at the time we did play them in the final. Everton had very poor form too and half the squad out with injuries.
West Ham was the big test and we had one good performance to beat them away. With fellaini being a key player who saved him a lot too using long balls and a more physical method. Also lucky that Rooney was our injured forcing us to pick a side more suited to win that game with Herrera and fellaini in midfield. Rashford scored a great goal too and he would never had played if not for injuries to other players before. I am happy we won that cup, but even David Moyes would have won it if given the same run of games and the same amount of luck.
We had some players performing despite playing for LVG and some talents emerge despite playing for him. Although the overall plan and ideas from LVG made things worse and not better apart from maybe hiring good coaches.
I think how bad the long term effects from LVG might be is hard to see. Although if we go 5-6 more years without any titles then LVG is the key figure to our decline and I think even you would have to agree with that. Although I do think new managers can turn things around with the resources that we have even after LVG did ruin us so much and Mourinho helped make it worse.
Although the added pressure from having to deal with LVGs mess can have a negative impact on our new managers. They got too much work to do due to LVG messing things up which cause them to make rushed and poor decisions. It is hard to quantify how bad these things could be, but it is clear that both Mourinho and Ole has struggled so far.
I do think most people underestimate how bad LVG was since his long term impact on our team was the worst part of it.
I don't think he wanted to sell him. It was more a case of benching him while the Madrid nonsense was on and hinting he really shouldn't spend a year on the bench before the Euros. It worked. Actually, it's one of the things I think he got absolutely right.
He tossed aside that system by the second half of his second season. He himself had given up. His method of coaching possession was never going to work with modern players.
Lot of revisionism going on about LvG. Jose was bad, but comfortably better than him, both in terms of signings as well as results.
I'm not in an LVG or Mourinho camp, more in the "what else do you expect when we have been completely erratic throughout? camp".
Some have been going about the answer being a DoF, others blame Woodward and the owners, others blame Sanchez' wages and effect on other players...
All I know is the fish rots from the head but at this point the rot has set in, the whole fish is rotten. Burn it all down and start afresh.
Van Gaal didn't set back any further from where Moyes left us. That can't be denied. But that he didn't push up forward very much can't be denied either. But he did push us a little bit forward, though clearly far short of where we should have been by the end of his dreadful philosophy reign.
We could all see what he was trying to do with his tactics, but the problem with his tactics is that they're antithetical to everything United historically stood for, what the fans could accept and what our players could accept.
The ruin came the moment engineered the hiring of Moyes. Van Gaal and Mourinho did their part to pour gas on the fire, but we became a dumpster fire of a club the moment Moyes was brought in.
I hate to open up a can of worms but I'm worried we're never going to escape from this hell of mediocrity until after the Glazers sell the club and new management is brought in across the board.
The front trio of Lingard, Rashford, Martial were Van Gaal's team. If Blind wasn't sold off, it would have been Smalling and Blind defence. Shaw and Herrera were the board's signing. Only Pogba and Matic were Mourinho's signings. Also, Fred and Lindelof.
Yet it didn't only work with Robben, Wijnaldum, Sneidjer at the world cup but also, Schweisteiger, Muller, Kroos, Alaba, Robben at Bayern?
Let's face it, our sluggish ageing players in the midfield were the reason we played boring football, not Van Gaal.
If we had hired Jose immediately after Fergie we would be in a much better situation.
Similarly, one could argue Mourinho won the treble with the style he tried to implement in our second season. And we can talk about Lampard, Drogba and the numerous players who praise his style.
Past glories aside, both failed. And past glories aside, Mourinho's signings were better, and results were better with us. LvG was obnoxious and deluded in his second season and abandoned any hint of "philosophy" in a desperation to cling onto the job.
Possibly but I don't really buy into that mentality either cause he proved regardless he is a short term option and looking past short plans he generally leaves clubs in a complete and utter mess.
He is a managerial Tornado.
Season 1 - The calm before the storm, rumblings of something devastating coming
Season 2 - The storm hits
Season 3 - The clean up
That's Jose all over and regardless of whenever he got the job, the end result would of been the same.
I agree with that Jose timeline.
My thinking is that the first season after Fergie was pivotal and a vital time to begin rebuilding with quality players. I reckon Jose would have spotted that (due to his experience with title winning squads) and made some core signings. Rather than Moyes who was happy as a kid in a sweet shop with our deteriating post 2013 squad.
My concern would be he does his usual and we've no reason to believe otherwise...What is his usual? Short term signings.
What's the issue with that immediately post Ferguson?
Well we had a severely ageing group of players, so what would Jose of done? Replaced 39 year old Giggs with another 29/30 year old for a year maybe 2 tops? Then Jose's replacement is basically tasked with the same job?
Giggs - 39, Rio - 34, Carrick, Evra, Vidic - 31, Fletcher & RVP - 29.
That's 6 players and essentially the spine of the team the preceding decade and all that needed replacing in a 1-2 year period.
One of the reasons why I understood the task at hand for Ferguson's successors. Moyes didn't do it, he couldn't do it. LVG made an attempt at it and it wasn't perfect by any means but hell, folks really give him a rough time of it.
Im a big fan of LVG - but even I would say that Jose would have been better for United straight after SAF.
SAF left a largely declining experienced squad that would have suited Jose for his traditional 2 and a half years at the top. Would have replaced the experienced players with even more experienced players whilst showing to the world that winning after SAF was possible.
After Jose LVG would have been better - a manager that got rid of some of the experience factor and built the club towards a youth organised system that would be more suited to a manager like Giggs or Ole - which was the original plan.
Going from LVG to Jose was a horrible choice asked for by much of the fans and Woodward. It should have been the other way around as much as possible - or letting someone homegrown takeover LVG.
I think continuing the winning mentality would've been priceless. Even at the expense of signing some 28-30 year olds to keep the trophy train running. Once that mentality has gone it's hard to get back. Look at Liverpools 30 year spell!
LVG looks worse in hindsight only because Jose followed him and needed totally different types of players. Counter attack as a pose to possession. If we'd signed a possession based manager after LVG then some his signings would look much more sensible. Bad succession planning by Woodward and the board are to blame for that.
Absolutely, I've always felt had the board really felt LVG needed to go fine at least replace him with someone a bit more suitable to the plan that had been rolled out the previous 2 years.
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