Van Gaal

Leftback99

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And who was the manager most at blame for this disastrous season? :lol:

I'll give you a clue, most of the moron's on here think he done a supposedly better job than LVG ;)
Both disastrous seasons, but you want to make one out as great.
 

Keefy18

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Both disastrous seasons, but you want to make one out as great.
:lol::lol:

When your absolutely snookered just make up sentiments that were never said.

LVG just done a better job than Jose for me but folks bizarrely praised Jose's tenure in comparison.

The club was far healthier with LVG leaving it than when Jose left it in December last and that is an absolute fact.

If folks are honest it comes down to a simple subconscious factor and folks hate LVG unfairly for it.

Jose was the supporters choice. The vast majority demanded Jose for years! He was the chosen one wasn't he?

Jose failed badly, there was far greater expectations on Jose than any other and he failed miserably and it kills folks to think back to Dec 2015 when they were singing his name whilst LVG was manager, buying feckin Jose / United scarves with LVG still here.

When Jose fecks up, standard reaction now is to just point the finger of blame at the board ignoring the fact it was an appointment the vast majority of our fan base demanded be made.
 

Leftback99

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The club was far healthier with LVG leaving it than when Jose left it in December last and that is an absolute fact.
It was healthier before LVG started and spent £250m to end up with a worse squad.
 

antohan

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Your chance to play a procession based system like Bayern, Barca and Ajax is gone once you sack LVG. If he can't do it in Man Utd because the board and the fans have no patience, then probably nobody can.

You got what you wish for by sacking him and hired Mourinho. I wish OGS have a successful season next year but only if he can manage fans expectation.
This. Watching us was boring as hell, but there was a system in place to (try to) control a game. We lacked the quality that could take it to the next level. In 2014 WC he had Robben, Di Maria should have been that but we know what happened.

We failed in the transfer stakes and reverted to results first without addressing the quality issue so here we are, neither here nor there, and looking ordinary against Huddersfield.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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He gave us Romero, Shaw, Herrera (whom folks are gutted over leaving today), Blind (not his fault Jose is a moron who sold him, his Ajax form shows he is an incredible talent), Martial (still time to prove himself, although its running short) and debuted Rashford (and don't give me crap about luck and what not, he was in his plans).

De Gea actually made more saves under Jose than he did for LVG's United. Wouldn't that suggest we were far more reliant on him than LVG was then? We had a better defence under LVG, Smalling & Blind is still our best CB pairing post Ferguson for me. Shaw's form pre leg break was very good, he started the 2nd season superbly.

Our midfield was the issue in reality, he was stuck with an ageing and under performing Rooney (Thanks to Moyes and his 5 year deal) and Fellaini (Moyes again). He made errors with Morgan & Bastian but I don't recall many complaining when they were signed.

Attack, Martial & Rashford were doing well and looked very promising only for Jose to ruin both of them and stall their development.



Ah come on now, think back to that FA Cup final win and the form of players around then.

De Gea was in superb form, Valencia was arguably one of the best defensive RB's in the league still, Smalling & Blind were doing very well, Shaw performed pre leg break / Young filled in well at that time.

Our Midfield wasn't much to write about, Herrera was hit n miss at the time as he needed a season to settle as is often the case with many foreign imports. Still, as bad a signing as he was Fellaini often saved the day for LVG (done the same for Jose too then).

Martial & Rashford were looking like 2 seriously talented young kinds in May 2016.

Now list me the players who were top of their game in Dec 2018 when Jose got the bullet? De Gea? Lindelof improved but still well off the mark. Shaw hasn't quite been the same player since that leg break. Pogba & Matic were out of the side more than in it. Rashford & Martial shot of confidence and Rom his big forward signing was utterly dreadful and woefully out of shape.

Aside from all that, LVG had all the players working with the ball. They were far better technically, even if our patience levels were tested like never before. Jose gifted teams possession and sat back and was never a proactive manager. It was so incredibly negative to allow teams over run us and box us in and rely on De Gea to bail us out then hope for a mistake to capitalize on.



See I think of it completely the opposite.

LVG went into United and completely restructured all the teams from youth up, similar to how Ajax & Bayern operate. Which is something a large section of our fan base have demanded for god knows how long. Our youth teams benefited tremendously, as is often the case with LVG. We won back to back leagues under his tenure here and many of the youth players were buzzing with him as manager.

Think of it this way, Ole & Mike are now rolling out the same ideals LVG was doing already at the club in 2014! He had an intense interest in the youth teams, promoting youth. They are, it seems attempting to follow the Ajax / Bayern model by involving ex players in roles at board / managerial level, from Carrick and Phelan as coaches and Fletch or Rio as DoF.

Weather LVG got season 3 or not, if we went from LVG to Ole I'd be absolutely certain that we'd be far, far, far better for it. There is a clear continuation there of many of the same ideals of investing in youth and club structure.

Basically erasing Jose from the clubs history ideally.

I don't see a big difference with our youth players really. It might help us in the future, but it is very hard to know what he did with them. It would also be other coaches that would do that job. Maybe LVG had a good eye for picking good coaches, but it is really hard to tell and know.
I think the problem with LVG is that he would weaken our first team even more with time. That could allow for young players to get chances, but the risk is very high. His tactics and ideas to win games also didn't work out at all most of the time and he would not have changed.

The main reason why LVG had some sucess in terms of results was due to the league being very weak at that time. All the other top teams failed in europe just like us and they all failed in the FA cup too. We had the most easy run ever to win the Fa cup. Also our opponents had injures and terrible league form when we did face them too. I think Palace did barely win any games in the league at the time we did play them in the final. Everton had very poor form too and half the squad out with injuries.
West Ham was the big test and we had one good performance to beat them away. With fellaini being a key player who saved him a lot too using long balls and a more physical method. Also lucky that Rooney was our injured forcing us to pick a side more suited to win that game with Herrera and fellaini in midfield. Rashford scored a great goal too and he would never had played if not for injuries to other players before. I am happy we won that cup, but even David Moyes would have won it if given the same run of games and the same amount of luck.

We had some players performing despite playing for LVG and some talents emerge despite playing for him. Although the overall plan and ideas from LVG made things worse and not better apart from maybe hiring good coaches.

I think how bad the long term effects from LVG might be is hard to see. Although if we go 5-6 more years without any titles then LVG is the key figure to our decline and I think even you would have to agree with that. Although I do think new managers can turn things around with the resources that we have even after LVG did ruin us so much and Mourinho helped make it worse.
Although the added pressure from having to deal with LVGs mess can have a negative impact on our new managers. They got too much work to do due to LVG messing things up which cause them to make rushed and poor decisions. It is hard to quantify how bad these things could be, but it is clear that both Mourinho and Ole has struggled so far.

I do think most people underestimate how bad LVG was since his long term impact on our team was the worst part of it.
 
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antohan

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So wanting to sell DDG was the right idea? Bearing in mind how he has saved us over the past few years, I'm not sure how that works.
I don't think he wanted to sell him. It was more a case of benching him while the Madrid nonsense was on and hinting he really shouldn't spend a year on the bench before the Euros. It worked. Actually, it's one of the things I think he got absolutely right.
 

Kapardin

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This. Watching us was boring as hell, but there was a system in place to (try to) control a game. We lacked the quality that could take it to the next level. In 2014 WC he had Robben, Di Maria should have been that but we know what happened.

We failed in the transfer stakes and reverted to results first without addressing the quality issue so here we are, neither here nor there, and looking ordinary against Huddersfield.
He tossed aside that system by the second half of his second season. He himself had given up. His method of coaching possession was never going to work with modern players.

Lot of revisionism going on about LvG. Jose was bad, but comfortably better than him, both in terms of signings as well as results.
 

antohan

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He tossed aside that system by the second half of his second season. He himself had given up. His method of coaching possession was never going to work with modern players.

Lot of revisionism going on about LvG. Jose was bad, but comfortably better than him, both in terms of signings as well as results.
I'm not in an LVG or Mourinho camp, more in the "what else do you expect when we have been completely erratic throughout? camp".

Some have been going about the answer being a DoF, others blame Woodward and the owners, others blame Sanchez' wages and effect on other players...

All I know is the fish rots from the head but at this point the rot has set in, the whole fish is rotten. Burn it all down and start afresh.
 

Livvie

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I don't think he wanted to sell him. It was more a case of benching him while the Madrid nonsense was on and hinting he really shouldn't spend a year on the bench before the Euros. It worked. Actually, it's one of the things I think he got absolutely right.
Makes sense.
 

lex talionis

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I think LVG did set us back the most though. He pretty much ruined our team. Mourinho did what he normally do which didn't help that much.
Van Gaal didn't set back any further from where Moyes left us. That can't be denied. But that he didn't push up forward very much can't be denied either. But he did push us a little bit forward, though clearly far short of where we should have been by the end of his dreadful philosophy reign.

We could all see what he was trying to do with his tactics, but the problem with his tactics is that they're antithetical to everything United historically stood for, what the fans could accept and what our players could accept.

The ruin came the moment engineered the hiring of Moyes. Van Gaal and Mourinho did their part to pour gas on the fire, but we became a dumpster fire of a club the moment Moyes was brought in.

I hate to open up a can of worms but I'm worried we're never going to escape from this hell of mediocrity until after the Glazers sell the club and new management is brought in across the board.
 

Kaglish10

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The squad he did build was very average and had declined since Moyes days and every move LVG made just made it weaker. De Gea did play like a GOD for him and gave us 10-20 points extra, but not sure how much credit LVG should have for that apart from maybe having a good coach for goalkeepers. I think Mourinho did improve the squad a bit more and his ideas in the market was better. Although he did go for too many older players.
Overall I think LVG set the squad back, but Mourinho had a mixed effect. The last year for Mourinho was terrible though and he did go into suicide mode which we have seen before. Although he didn't really have time to ruin the squad apart from the Sanchez signing.
The trajectory for both was negative though. I think taking over from Mourinho would be easier than taking over from LVG. That is my main point here. We did see Ole getting results directly using Mourinhos team. With that said I don't think Ole is the guy to improve this team further and we do need to improve our squad a lot.

In terms of long term damage I say LVG ruined us the most then Mourinho and then Moyes. Still hopefully we can do much better in the market and build a team for the future.

I think we are lucky that LVG did fail to reach champions league in his second year. One more year with LVG and our squad could have been fecked to the extreme and been in midtable in my view.

The front trio of Lingard, Rashford, Martial were Van Gaal's team. If Blind wasn't sold off, it would have been Smalling and Blind defence. Shaw and Herrera were the board's signing. Only Pogba and Matic were Mourinho's signings. Also, Fred and Lindelof.
 

Kaglish10

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He tossed aside that system by the second half of his second season. He himself had given up. His method of coaching possession was never going to work with modern players.

Lot of revisionism going on about LvG. Jose was bad, but comfortably better than him, both in terms of signings as well as results.
Yet it didn't only work with Robben, Wijnaldum, Sneidjer at the world cup but also, Schweisteiger, Muller, Kroos, Alaba, Robben at Bayern?

Let's face it, our sluggish ageing players in the midfield were the reason we played boring football, not Van Gaal.
 

Kapardin

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Yet it didn't only work with Robben, Wijnaldum, Sneidjer at the world cup but also, Schweisteiger, Muller, Kroos, Alaba, Robben at Bayern?

Let's face it, our sluggish ageing players in the midfield were the reason we played boring football, not Van Gaal.
Similarly, one could argue Mourinho won the treble with the style he tried to implement in our second season. And we can talk about Lampard, Drogba and the numerous players who praise his style.

Past glories aside, both failed. And past glories aside, Mourinho's signings were better, and results were better with us. LvG was obnoxious and deluded in his second season and abandoned any hint of "philosophy" in a desperation to cling onto the job.
 

Keefy18

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If we had hired Jose immediately after Fergie we would be in a much better situation.
Possibly but I don't really buy into that mentality either cause he proved regardless he is a short term option and looking past short plans he generally leaves clubs in a complete and utter mess.

He is a managerial Tornado.

Season 1 - The calm before the storm, rumblings of something devastating coming
Season 2 - The storm hits
Season 3 - The clean up

That's Jose all over and regardless of whenever he got the job, the end result would of been the same.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Possibly but I don't really buy into that mentality either cause he proved regardless he is a short term option and looking past short plans he generally leaves clubs in a complete and utter mess.

He is a managerial Tornado.

Season 1 - The calm before the storm, rumblings of something devastating coming
Season 2 - The storm hits
Season 3 - The clean up

That's Jose all over and regardless of whenever he got the job, the end result would of been the same.
I agree with that Jose timeline.

My thinking is that the first season after Fergie was pivotal and a vital time to begin rebuilding with quality players. I reckon Jose would have spotted that (due to his experience with title winning squads) and made some core signings. Rather than Moyes who was happy as a kid in a sweet shop with our deteriating post 2013 squad.
 

Keefy18

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I agree with that Jose timeline.

My thinking is that the first season after Fergie was pivotal and a vital time to begin rebuilding with quality players. I reckon Jose would have spotted that (due to his experience with title winning squads) and made some core signings. Rather than Moyes who was happy as a kid in a sweet shop with our deteriating post 2013 squad.
My concern would be he does his usual and we've no reason to believe otherwise...What is his usual? Short term signings.

What's the issue with that immediately post Ferguson?

Well we had a severely ageing group of players, so what would Jose of done? Replaced 39 year old Giggs with another 29/30 year old for a year maybe 2 tops? Then Jose's replacement is basically tasked with the same job?

Giggs - 39, Rio - 34, Carrick, Evra, Vidic - 31, Fletcher & RVP - 29.

That's 6 players and essentially the spine of the team the preceding decade and all that needed replacing in a 1-2 year period.

One of the reasons why I understood the task at hand for Ferguson's successors. Moyes didn't do it, he couldn't do it. LVG made an attempt at it and it wasn't perfect by any means but hell, folks really give him a rough time of it.
 

Aloysius's Back 3

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Im a big fan of LVG - but even I would say that Jose would have been better for United straight after SAF.

SAF left a largely declining experienced squad that would have suited Jose for his traditional 2 and a half years at the top. Would have replaced the experienced players with even more experienced players whilst showing to the world that winning after SAF was possible.

After Jose LVG would have been better - a manager that got rid of some of the experience factor and built the club towards a youth organised system that would be more suited to a manager like Giggs or Ole - which was the original plan.

Going from LVG to Jose was a horrible choice asked for by much of the fans and Woodward. It should have been the other way around as much as possible - or letting someone homegrown takeover LVG.
 

Fluctuation0161

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My concern would be he does his usual and we've no reason to believe otherwise...What is his usual? Short term signings.

What's the issue with that immediately post Ferguson?

Well we had a severely ageing group of players, so what would Jose of done? Replaced 39 year old Giggs with another 29/30 year old for a year maybe 2 tops? Then Jose's replacement is basically tasked with the same job?

Giggs - 39, Rio - 34, Carrick, Evra, Vidic - 31, Fletcher & RVP - 29.

That's 6 players and essentially the spine of the team the preceding decade and all that needed replacing in a 1-2 year period.

One of the reasons why I understood the task at hand for Ferguson's successors. Moyes didn't do it, he couldn't do it. LVG made an attempt at it and it wasn't perfect by any means but hell, folks really give him a rough time of it.
I think continuing the winning mentality would've been priceless. Even at the expense of signing some 28-30 year olds to keep the trophy train running. Once that mentality has gone it's hard to get back. Look at Liverpools 30 year spell!

LVG looks worse in hindsight only because Jose followed him and needed totally different types of players. Counter attack as a pose to possession. If we'd signed a possession based manager after LVG then some his signings would look much more sensible. Bad succession planning by Woodward and the board are to blame for that.
 

Keefy18

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LVG looks worse in hindsight only because Jose followed him and needed totally different types of players. Counter attack as a pose to possession. If we'd signed a possession based manager after LVG then some his signings would look much more sensible. Bad succession planning by Woodward and the board are to blame for that.
Absolutely, I've always felt had the board really felt LVG needed to go fine at least replace him with someone a bit more suitable to the plan that had been rolled out the previous 2 years.