Yeah, he also had Pogba and Zlatan to make those numbers up! Let's face it, we are the new AC Milan regardless of who the manager is. The rot started in SAF last 3 years where the team got old, we relied heavily on Rio, Giggs, Evra and Vidic way too much. Like Milan did with Inzaghi, Maldini, Gattuso and Co. And now like Milan we are signing players as a desperate fix, with no clear agenda.
Van Gaal
- Thread starter bond19821982
- Start date
So, cups aren't a barometer .. unless of course they're used as a point BY YOU to point out that Louis won us a cup in his last season, and we're getting nothing this season? Seems reasonable. Cups only matter when supporting one's own argument, OK, I've got that now I think.Cups aren't the barometer, the league is the bread and butter and Jose performed miserably in the league. There is a strong element of luck in winning cups, hence the term.. the luck of the draw. Often teams like United play teams in much lower leagues.
The difference in the two cup wise is a feckin league cupWhich Jose apologized to Southampton for due to a woeful ref on the day and robbed them of.
Jose did not make any attempt at rebuilding feck that. He hung onto all our periphery players and focused on the short term, not long term. He was in favor of selling Martial for stop gaps like Willian / Perisic. Rashford was the hottest prospect in Europe, shunted him RW in favor of Zlatan and then Lukaku.
All the work was undone by LVG, Jose made his choices and we are worse off for it.
Jose performed better, over his 2 seasons, than Louis did in his time. Jose also got us into the CL in both his full seasons. Louis? Not so much.
Yep. Exactly. That's why I'm annoyed with myself for getting sucked into this stupid argument about who was less shit as our manager. Because the problems run far deeper. There's no plan, and Woodward is an imbecile. He needs to appoint a DoF and get the heck away from football operations. I've no hope he will though.
I hope we'll ever see as bad a period for the club again from the point of throwing Nick Powell on to save us in the CL (because he had absolutely ruined the squad), through to the end of the 15/16 season. It was torture.
It got to the point where he realised that people blindly gave him credit for playing youth, so he resorted to randomly playing any young player he could.
It got to the point where he realised that people blindly gave him credit for playing youth, so he resorted to randomly playing any young player he could.
And folks didn't complain with any of those signings when they were announced, experts that they are. Blind was a utility player and played CM and CB with equal measure. Far from a failure, but Jose shipped him on.
Bastian cost us around 3m, jesus wept he hardly broke the feckin bank and hurt the club. The way folks carry on you'd swear it was the worst signing in the history of the club for record amounts.
I'd prefer a side that retained possession and worked with the ball as opposed to Jose's version of gifting the opposition possession and reactive football. Common sense should dictate which is worse surely?
By Jose conceding possession he invited pressure onto our defence and overloaded it game after game after game and we relied more heavily on De Gea under Jose than we ever did under LVG.
I didn't think I'd have to point this out but if you don't have the ball you are likely to be on the back foot more often.
De Gea saves
2014/15 - 93
2015/16 - 83
Total - 176
2016/17 - 74
2017/18 - 115
Total - 189 saves
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/saves
Your whole point about the "good defence" and "dealing with the attacks" is complete bollicks. You are factually wrong in your summary above. We relied far more heavily on De Gea bailing us out under Jose than we have under any other manager.
"A permanent starter"
He played ONE... Yes ONE more game in the PL for Jose than LVG.
- Overall LVG played Shaw 28 Games in all competitions, bearing in mind Shaw broke his leg early in the second season
- Overall Jose played Shaw 38 games in all competitions, bearing in mind Shaw had no broke leg but Jose decided to continually single him on out a weekly basis.
Wrong here again.
Blind was in the running for our Player of the season his first year here?
Those 4 signings all cost us approx €75m.
Jose went and signed 2 midfielders for over €100m. Most supporters want rid of both of them (Matic & Pogba).
No obsession, I don't follow the social media narrative. I use my own intelligence to judge for myself. Everything you've posted comes straight out an article from 90mins or the sun. You read something online and believe it hook, line and sinker it seems.
Fact is LVG gets a really unfair and rough time of it with our supporter base and its factually untrue as I'm proving here. Jose left us in a far worse state than LVG did.
No indication he was in his plans? Except for the fact he had already included him in match squads well, well before he actually debuted him.
But, but he only played cause of an injury to another player. So...Giggs came on for an injured Irwin. Guess Ferguson didn't have a clue either nor any plans for Giggs either?
https://us.soccerway.com/matches/20...d-football-club/manchester-united-fc/2043177/
Memphis is ripping it up across Europe now, just has a bad attitude. He was well worth the investment and another player that folks absolutely raved about when signed.
ADM we recouped almost all of what we spent.
Faclao was basically free ffs, again well worth the risk considering his form then for Monaco.
BTW, Jose couldn't get a tune from him either in the PL when he took him at Chelsea.
He had Rashford... a CF playing at CF.
Martial played LW & CF for Monaco.. Exactly how LVG used him here also.
Mata was RW for Chelsea also.
That's the front 3 that played in the FA Cup final you posted... Again your point is absolutely moronic and unfounded.
It's actually hilarious the bit in bold here is a perfect description of hour our attack looked under Jose by the end.
Right back at ya, here's Jose's final line up vs Liverpool.
Lukaku CF, Rashford LM with Dalot LM.
Jose's go to option when his utterly crap tactics didn't work as was often the case was to lump Fellaini on! But your taking a bigger issue with LVG playing a front 3 of Mata, Rashford & Martial
https://us.soccerway.com/matches/20...ue/liverpool-fc/manchester-united-fc/2795434/
Ole is doing exactly the same and being praised, meanwhile the moron in between ignored youth.
He didn't randomly just throw youth into games. Rashford & Wilson were promoted due to moving on RVP & Hernandez.
Likewise, he shifted on Rio, Vidic & played TFM & McNair regularly during his time here.
That is anything but random. They wouldn't of got near the side if we had kept hold of senior, injury prone players. That's a feckin plan!
But because they didn't become instant worldies to folks like you, its summarized as pot luck and no plan.
His project was a 3 year project. He was only 2 years in! He shifted out numerous senior players and was making big decisions that needed to be made for the sake of the club.
He finished level with 4th, won an FA Cup. He was fully entitled to season 3. He was slowly including youth players into the first side but again folks like yourself expect instant gratification.
If Ole missed out on top 4 next season, will you also call for his head? Rinse and repeat ad nauseam! We eventually have to say to a manager failing is OK if the team is being built and going in the right direction and we were.
At all levels of the club he made close to 50 transfers, Jose who you think rebuilt also made only 29 in a longer period of time, link here.
https://www.transferleague.co.uk/ma...sh-football-teams/manchester-united-transfers
Except for the fact we won our first trophy post Fergie with him? Martial won a FIFA award? Rashford was another hot property and considered one of the best young attackers within months of debuting. Smalling & Blind making up a superb CB pairing.
TFM making himself a regular within the side at RB / CB.
Varela performing well and could of taken over at RB.
Shaw was performing in the early months of his 2nd season pre leg break.
Yeah because hitting the reset button has worked out so well for us, Seriously pal you need to give your head a serious wobble!
Fact is LVG and yes it is a fact, LVG took over 7th placed United from Moyes. Jose took over 5th placed (tied with 4th) and FA Cup winning United with 2 of Europes hottest prospects to work with and phased one out and shoved the other to RW where he was ineffective for large spells.
By the end of Jose tenure we were adrift of top 4 completely, those 2 talented young players have not developed thanks to him, our entire squad bereft of any self belief and all bar one of his signings completely wrote off (Matic).
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Look the end goal is to win the league if it's not I'm not sure what the point is.
LVG was always closer to the league winners than Jose ever was.
What's worse, being 19pts or 14pts adrift from the champions?
No one made him say his Captain would always play, no one made him keep Rooney or convert him to a midfielder. Can’t spin it that was his preference.
My point is in a third season Rojo, Jones, Young, Valencia etc would have all been playing not the youngsters. For some people this mythical third season has turned into brilliant football and youngsters playing all the time but it would have just been more of the same and that’s why he went.
The big issue was like when Moyes was sacked the club made wrong decision with the replacement and didn’t take the opportunity to restructure.
So is it better to be second in league 1 by 5 points than to be second in the premier league by 6 points?
You can argue that to see Leicester win the league ahead of us was a massive failure for LVG.
Before that season a lot of us hoped we would challenge for the league mainly because it was very weak that year even for us that doubted LVG. He totally failed and our football got worse and worse.
I don't get what's fans opinions in signings and what Bastian costed had with the fact that he had signed 4 midfielders and still failed in solving the midfield issues and had to use Moyes ones. Who told you fans should have a better eye in players than the manager ?
Maybe if he targeted better options he wouldn't have to play with such underwhelming midfield. 4 midfield signings, if had been signed properly, would have solved the issue completely.
That's on him.
You don't ever get tired of mentioning Mourinho ? The thread title is called "Van Gaal". It's about Van Gaal reign. I don't get your obsession with mentioning Mourinho to justify every LVG failure. Mourinho failure doesn't change any LVG failure.
I'll prefer a side that can retain ball, but definitely not retaining ball in our own half while not aiming to pass it forward and anyway, that's far away from the point that our defense was terrible and needed a combination of midfield retaining the ball and GK saving them to look good. That's not the basis of a good defense you leave behind.
Don't get the aim of this state. More like it proves my point, but again, the problem is your obsession in bringing Mourinho failure while we're discussing LVG's. As I said, LVG's style was retaining possession in our own half to decrease the number of shots we receive, which is different from Mourinho's style obviously (hence the difference in numbers), that doesn't change that whenever the opponent got their chances on us we depended on Dave to save us 9 times out of 10. The number of saves under LVG is still ridiculous. It's less than Mourinho because of the difference in style.
But the difference in style isn't the point of discussion. The point is he left terrible defense behind him that needed loads of protection for it to work, which showed with a manager that doesn't favor possession as Mourinho, as the number of saves increased because the defense started to have to depend on itself more often.
This stat proves my point rather than the opposite.
"A permanent starter"
He played ONE... Yes ONE more game in the PL for Jose than LVG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Shaw
- Overall LVG played Shaw 28 Games in all competitions, bearing in mind Shaw broke his leg early in the second season
- Overall Jose played Shaw 38 games in all competitions, bearing in mind Shaw had no broke leg but Jose decided to continually single him on out a weekly basis.
Wrong here again.
Wrong in what exactly ? Shaw was a permanent starter this entire season before Mourinho was sacked. Since the first match of this current season till Mourinho was sacked Shaw was our permanent LB. That's a fact. Don't even know what's this stat related to. No one has said he was a starter during Mourinho entire reign but he was the current season, so the point of Mourinho falling with him is false.
Again, you're bringing random stats here and there that aren't related to the points made.
He switched Blind to LB in second part of his first season and to CB in his second season when he actually signed him to play in midfield.
I don't know what's the cost matters here. He signed 4, 4! midfielders to solve the midfield issue and still failed. If he had chosen 4 proper targets the issues would have been solved. It's not like he was on shortage of money.
Mourinho left a midfield to be discussed about at least. LVG left a non existent midfield that needed at least 3 signings to solve, and his signings there bar Herrera were actually a deadwood that needed to be shipped off.
I'm not the one who's throwing random stats that has absolutely nothing to do with the point made as far as I'm concerned.
What rough time ? He fecked the squad, left a terrible collection of players in every position that needed major overhaul when he was the one signed to do it, had terrible summer business again and again, played absolutely shite on stick football that drove people to sleep and did nothing here more than scrapping 4th once and winning a cup with no big teams around in it.
His both seasons in PL ended with 70 and 66 points, which are about 4 and 2 more points respectively than the number of points we collected in Moyes season! Big advancement that right ?
His last season we scored fecking 49 goals in the league but he got rough treatment ?
He's getting slaughtered for obvious reasons.
Rashford was included in the squad once and didn't come as a sub, then disappeared completely. Meanwhile in Jan LVG brought Will Keane from loan so that he had Rooney, Martial and Will Keane as his striker options. Keane actually played in a cup game and got injured. Surely if Rashford was in plans to play he would have got minutes instead of Keane at this point, but nope. Keane was supposed to be in Rashford's role. It was a lucky hit as simple as that.
There's no problem in depending on him in case of injuries but the problem is he wasn't even in his short term plans to play anyway, as showed by Will Keane returning from loan and actually getting game time in cup.
Ripping it ? I guess you're not following then, or only watching national teams ? Depay has 8 goals in 37 matches this season with Lyon, including only 6 in the league in 27 matches.
Also I don't want to even say LVG ended up dropping Depay from his calculation and benched him from the first half of the season. He didn't have any patience for him actually so not sure about this "ripping" part.
Not sure again about the rest. These signings failed, mate, as simple as that. Again like the midfield. 3 proper attacking signings could have changed the attack completely for a competent manager that knows his targets, unlike LVG.
4 midfield signings and 3 attacking signings. Imagine if these were actually proper ones. Now that would have been a rebuild, but nope, we got 2 good players out of those 7 and the rest were shipped off or stayed as deadwood to be shipped off later.
Again with the Mourinho obsession. This is getting absolutely tiresome. I don't remember once in my earlier post mentioning Mourinho as much as you have done in your post.He had Rashford... a CF playing at CF.
Martial played LW & CF for Monaco.. Exactly how LVG used him here also.
Mata was RW for Chelsea also.
That's the front 3 that played in the FA Cup final you posted... Again your point is absolutely moronic and unfounded.
It's actually hilarious the bit in bold here is a perfect description of hour our attack looked under Jose by the end.
Right back at ya, here's Jose's final line up vs Liverpool.
Lukaku CF, Rashford LM with Dalot LM.
Jose's go to option when his utterly crap tactics didn't work as was often the case was to lump Fellaini on! But your taking a bigger issue with LVG playing a front 3 of Mata, Rashford & Martial
https://us.soccerway.com/matches/20...ue/liverpool-fc/manchester-united-fc/2795434/
Every LVG failure you try to bring a similar example from Mourinho reign to justify it.
No one has said Mourinho hasn't failed. Realize it. That doesn't change the fact LVG failed too.
Again, look at the thread title :"Van Gaal". This is about Van Gaal reign here. Maybe in a "Van Gaal vs Mourinho" thread we may discuss the difference. Not here.
For one last time, Mourinho failure doesn't make LVG any successful. This is a nonsense logic, if it's even called logic.
For your points, Mata and Lingard played their best football centrally but they are/were shoehorned on the wing because we failed to sign any.
He signed Martial and played him as a striker in the first 2 matches then switched him to the left as the season went on.
I don't remember mentioning not playing CF at CF. Again another point never made I see. The point was he left the squad with no wingers and us playing number 10s and 9s there even though he made 3 attacking signings during his reign. This is a fact, as simple as that.
It was also ridiculous for Mourinho to not solve this by the way.
Ole is doing what ? Ridiculous. Ole has depended on Greenwood, Garner, Chong and Gomes, all were known good talents from the academy and put them on needed, not throwing random youth left, right and center and waiting for a hit.
LVG had promoted loads and loads of youth in his 2 years and all ended up failing completely during and after his reign with only one succeeding (Rashford). If he had an actual good eye for talent he would have targeted those who he thought has qualities and sure as hell he would have had a better success rate with youth promoted in these 2 years than only one! from the loads he promoted.
He was just waiting for a lucky hit to get full praise of it, like what you and some are doing. For his good luck he got it.
2 years out of 3 and you're saying "only" ? You do realize this more than half of his project and the squad was still in dire state, playing shite on stick football and have no dependable defense, no proper midfield and no top attackers ? It's beyond delusional to think another transfer market would have solved these, even putting in consideration his terrible transfer business done in the previous 2 summers.
I replayed on the other points above. His 2 seasons ended with 70 and 66 points, that's 4 and 2 points respectively more than what we collected in Moyes season when we finished 7th. He won a cup, in which his strongest opponent was Everton or West Ham.
In his first season we scored 62 goals, that's, believe it or not, 2 goals less than what we scored in Moyes season (64). His second season ended in a diabolical 49 goals, 15 goals less than Moyes season.
We weren't moving forward under him. We barely progressed at all. The league points were pretty similar to what we collected in Moyes season. Our goals scoring stats were the real definition of bad, even worse than what Moyes had done.
His project had failed. Keeping him for one more year would have done absolutely nothing. It will be another year wasted just like his other 2 years.
As for Ole, how the hell are you comparing missing on top 4 after getting the job in December to what LVG did in an entire season ? I told you, you're throwing random points left, right and center.
As for the bold part, who said that ? Another random point made. I'm getting used to this now.
Yeah we won a cup with our hardest opponent being Everton and West Ham, definitely an indication of a successful project, also let's ignore our god awful points and goals stats in the league which are similar/worse than Moyes season when he was hired to improve over him.
This part of your replay is about as repeated points as it can get. I replied on about all of these above and multiple times actually.
It's just ridiculous you think these are good parameters for a successful project though. Do you believe yourself writing this ?
And this Varela part is laughable as well. Where is he now by the way ? Don't even know.
Anything to actually counter it?
The goal is first, if it's not why even bother?
Rooney was 1 year into a 5 year deal if memory serves right so he had feck all choice but to stick with. Considering his history and goal scoring record he wasn't that far from breaking the record at all.
Just for one second, put yourself in LVG's shoes and you had to make the call. Folks absolutely lost their minds over selling squad players like Hernandez, what would be the reaction if he sold Rooney? One of the clubs all time goal scorers (at that point and on the cusp of breaking it). Rooney is a club legend and he had to play. He was stuck with him in reality and you can try explain it a thousand different ways all you like but that's the damned reality of it.
Except from the fact he debuted 15 YTS players with Rashford, McNair, TFM all taking up regular spots in the side after only 2 seasons? He was routinely watching youth matches on a near weekly basis, so what are you telling me he done that for the good of his health?
He was looking at young lads who were playing well, deserved a shot at the senior side and gave it to them. He put belief into them and you sink or swim at this level.
Ole is focusing on youth the same way LVG did.
So, Ole uses Greenwood, Garner, Chong & Gomes and is praised as it was all planned...
But
When LVG involved youth he had no plan, he only used them cause of injuries and deserves no praise?
We had injuries going into recent games. Martial, Rashford and Lingard all missed games and in turn he debuted Garner, Chong & Greenwood.
Exactly the same situation behind LVG debuting Rashford (Martial got injured), Borthwith Jackon due to an injury crisis (again a link is provided).
LVG "Depended" as you put it exactly the same way Ole has on youth players to step up. It's fecking moronic to slate a particular manager for debuting youths for this and praising another but that is exactly what you have done here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Borthwick-Jackson
Clear, biased and ill informed agenda against LVG.
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So lets get this straight and call it as it is yeah... 4 players signed for MF.
- Blind was in contention for the SMB player of the year award in his debut season.
- Herrera won it. He played him 72 games in 2 seasons, far from ignored like you've previously said. Maybe, just maybe he needed a season or 2 to adapt as is common with foreign players coming into play in the PL?
- Bastian was a fair transfer considering fees vs experience he could bring to the side.
- Morgan didn't work out.
50/50 I'd argue. I'll go into this more below but in a nutshell our problem is supporters expecting instant results constantly.
Again no obsession I'm just point out the fallacy of the myth Jose took over a team in worse shape than LVG did. These sentiments floating around from morons that LVG did more damage than good.
Oh LVG didn't make any attempt at rebuilding, provided links showing he did. I named 8 players that made up the nucleus of his starting XI for the future. What was Jose's best XI by the Liverpool game in December last? It was commonly said Jose hadn't a feckin clue what his best side was. He actually went backwards even in finding his best XI. He had 3 maybe 4 players at most nailed on every game in DDG, Young, Fellaini & Matic. That aside, it was chop / change every single match.
I can tell you matter of fact most of what LVG's best XI was.
There's a thing called transitions in football. As has been pointed out by myself and @Aloysius's Back 3 - Our MF was lacking pace / tempo and even if he went with Herrera in there it still lacked it. There is only so much a manager can fix in a certain time frame, but folks like you expected world class everything instantly.
Our defence had improved with a settled CB pairing in Smalling / Blind. Shaw was his LB until he broke his leg.
Attack was fairly settled with Rooney or Rashford playing CF, LW was Martial and RW was Mata.
The MF was the issue and arguably for many still is an issue cause Matic's legs are gone and Fred is still adapting. Our MF has been a constant issue for all managers.
A "Terrible" defense which protected De Gea from having to save more shots than it did in the next 2 years?
The stats show De Gea was worked far more frequently per 90 mins in his 2 seasons under Jose. The defense was literally by passed / breached over and over every single game with Jose there and his tactical set up.
The stat does not in anyway at all prove your point
I'll give you further evidence.
Smalling - Look at his PL performance data for 2015/16 vs 2016/17. He performed far better all round in 15/16 than a year later. The only thing that shows an improvement on is Clearances going from 5.1 clearances to 7 per 90mins. If anything this again proves he had more work to do due to our tactical set up and inviting teams to attack us.
https://www.sofascore.com/player/chris-smalling/47741
Blind - Same story again! He performed superbly alongside Smalling. Please feel free to look at his performance data again in the Premier league for 2015/16 vs a year later in 2016/17. All round, everything he performed far better for LVG than he done for Jose.
https://www.sofascore.com/player/daley-blind/44864
There was a working CB partnership which Jose broke up and favored Bailly in there and dropped Smalling. Due to us conceding possession to our opponents, the MF and DF was over ran and we relied upon De Gea to be the Great Wall and "save" us over and over.
The performance data proves this. Common sense dictates if you don't have the ball you are a defensive / reactionary team, I mean wasn't it a common complaint about us conceding first and having to continually come from behind to save points in games under Jose? By my rough count this morning we went behind in 14 premier leagues under LVG to save points. Jose, 17 games where we went behind.
For me there is a clear indication that even before a ball is kicked our mindset was negative to allow our opponents to come at us, hang on, wait for errors and try punish them, a clear defeatist attitude and hanging on for survival.
The point about Shaw was that Jose had fallen out with him time and time again. He routinely blamed Shaw for defeats, at one point he said something along the lines of him being stupid and lacking intelligence I believe.
Sample here of his near weekly public shaming he received.
So? He played well in all positions. Blind is a quality footballer, I'd give anything to have Blind back in our team over some of our current options at LB or CM. Thank feck we've Young at LB as cover now, its not like he's costing us games is it?
Sure Blind is doing nowt with Ajax as well, just a CL Semi Final is all.
No manager gets all their transfers right, not LVG's fault Blind was sold. He is more than good enough to play over Matic currently and arguably every bit as good as Fred or McTominay.
Herrera is still there and done a job for Jose in his first season.
Bastian & Morgan failed sure, so be it.
The bit in bold, well lets not forget Carrick retired as LVG was outgoing. Again, he would of had to have been replaced and as we didn't get to see season 3 of LVG we won't know how he would of been replaced. Weather it was Jose or LVG that choice had to be made.
Random? NO. Supporting my argument, Yes!
You just post cliched bollicks pal.
Yes rough time, remember the chants of boring at games from self entitled wank stains, judging by your sentiments here I'd not be surprised to see you condone or be surprised if you were part of it.
LVG made every attempt at rebuilding our squad, he invested in youth and obviously tried to play the United way by investing in exciting, wide, pacey attacking players with Memphis, ADM and Martial. Memphis had a rotten attitude, ADM didn't want to be here and I believe this signing was more to do with marketing and his hand was forced but he still gave him a fair crack at it and Martial delivered.
I asked you a very simple question which you have conveniently deleted in your idiotic ranting here.
If Ole fails to get top 4 next season would you be in favor of sacking him? Simple yes or no will suffice.
Maybe, just maybe it was because Keane was older and further along in his development? SHOCK HORROR!
He debuted in 2011 (18 Years old) and was out on loan across the Championship (5 clubs) and supporters were crying out for him to be played by LVG. He done that and gave him a run out aged 22! He got injured and who was next in line? Rashford.
Rashford at the time was 18. He hadn't been out on loan at all, hadn't played for ANY senior side.
Seriously talk about twisting things to suit your clear obsessive hatred of LVG.
Maybe if you actually used some common sense and judged fairly without your clear personal disliking of LVG cloud your sentiments you'd actually see this is just common sense again, something you seriously lack.
Whole paragraph is complete bollicks in a nutshell. Standard for you at this point though.
I'm on about since he's left United.
Last season Memphis was involved in more goals in the French league than Mbappe & Neymar. He's not done as well this season but still doing fine with goal involvement every other game. He's been involved in approx 80 goals in 110 games for Lyon ffs.
Your not sure about weather Falcao performed for Monaco?
Embarrassing statement! Just the 67 goals in 110 games is all when he went back to France, Oh and sure he only won the league and made a Champions league SF.Falcao was well worth the risk as all I'm saying and the point is proven by his form after his horrible injuries. It didn't hurt the club financially signing him, Jose felt he was worth the same risk too. It's feckin moronic to say otherwise but you will cause you know your clear disliking of LVG.
And on the flip side of that what did he give?
Smalling & Blind a performing CB pairing, Shaw at LB with Varela or TFM at RB coming through.
Herrera in MF
Martial on the LW, Rashford as CF.
That's 8 players I count.
Get over your feckin obsession of expecting managers to deliver perfect transfers.
It's posted routinely here that Jose performed far better, just pointing out the fallacy in that argument. He did not.
LVG Day of sacking - tied with 4th on pts
Jose Day of Sacked - 11 points off 4th.
Mata has always suffered that way and forced to play RW for all managers. It's not something that only happened during LVG's tenure. He was used often as a RW at Chelsea, Moyes done the same, LVG done the same, Jose has and now even Ole.
No he didn't, you're wrong.
Simple click here... 25 games as CF and just 7 as a winger.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ant...14&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=
*FORMATTING FELL OUT OF MY POST SO I'LL ADDRESS OTHER POINTS YOU MADE AS BEST I CAN HERE*
You said this on an earlier post...
"The front 3 LVG build after 2 years of transfer business was number 10 and 9s playing on the wing including 2 inconsistent youngsters, no top striker, no top winger, no player that can score +20 goals a season."
Point I'm making is our front line was in better shape under LVG. It was more evenly balanced with pace, tempo and creativity than what Jose left us with.
We had a CF at CF, A player with the ability to play LW playing LW and a senior player that had often played RW albeit him being shoehorned into the side there. But still LVG also tried to address the RW issue by buying ADM but it didn't work out and we recouped most of our money spent there.
We had wingers in Martial and Memphis, Jose phased out Martial by refusing to play him even though he was performing and Memphis was given a whopping FOUR games to prove himself before he shipped him out to Lyon. Hardly given a fair crack with Jose was he?
It's sad and pathetic your praise for Ole for youth but sum up LVG's use of youth as "luck".
Ole is focusing on youth the same way LVG did.
Ole uses Greenwood, Garner, Chong & Gomes and is praised as it was all planned...
But
When LVG involved youth he had no plan, he only used them cause of injuries and deserves no praise?
We had injuries going into recent games. Martial, Rashford and Lingard all missed games and in turn he debuted Garner, Chong & Greenwood.Exactly the same situation behind LVG debuting Rashford (Martial got injured), Borthwith Jackon due to an injury crisis (again a link is provided).
LVG "Depended" as you put it for Ole on youth players to step up. You have read far too much BS articles from the sun / 90 mins and bought it as gospel. Almost ALL youth players debut due to injuries / bans. It's fecking moronic to slate a particular manager for debuting youths for this and praising another but that is exactly what you have done here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Borthwick-Jackson
Clear, biased and ill informed agenda against LVG.
One of the greatest managers in the history of the game who used youth players to his advantage throughout his career, but only at United can we find Supporters who use terms like "Luck".
Was it luck that LVG debuted a world class Ajax side, Iniesta, Muller, Alaba, Badstuber & Xavi to name but a few? But he "got lucky" finding Rashford?
I'm sick to the back of my feckin teeth with plebs like you posting utter, utter nonsense! An entire career with a clear, concise plan focused on youth players and we've fecking idiots posting about luck.
You very much seem to think all our issues can be righted in a single summer and we can go from struggling to achieve top 4 to premier league champions and dominate again. It isn't that simple and all managers are going to have mistakes with transfers and rely on youth in times of injuries / bans.
Hence I keep asking you, if Ole performs in a similar manner and fails to get top 4 next season will you be running here to abuse him too and call for his head. We eventually have to say to a manager its OK to fail as long as work is being done and we are moving in the right direction, which we were under LVG. We went from 4th to 7th, the team was being rebuilt and had at least 8 players who made up the core of it and a clear focus on youth, a long term vision.
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Very well wrote @Keefy18 i agree with everything you said.So lets get this straight and call it as it is yeah... 4 players signed for MF.
- Blind was in contention for the SMB player of the year award in his debut season.
- Herrera won it. He played him 72 games in 2 seasons, far from ignored like you've previously said. Maybe, just maybe he needed a season or 2 to adapt as is common with foreign players coming into play in the PL?
- Bastian was a fair transfer considering fees vs experience he could bring to the side.
- Morgan didn't work out.
50/50 I'd argue. I'll go into this more below but in a nutshell our problem is supporters expecting instant results constantly.
Again no obsession I'm just point out the fallacy of the myth Jose took over a team in worse shape than LVG did. These sentiments floating around from morons that LVG did more damage than good.
Oh LVG didn't make any attempt at rebuilding, provided links showing he did. I named 8 players that made up the nucleus of his starting XI for the future. What was Jose's best XI by the Liverpool game in December last? It was commonly said Jose hadn't a feckin clue what his best side was. He actually went backwards even in finding his best XI. He had 3 maybe 4 players at most nailed on every game in DDG, Young, Fellaini & Matic. That aside, it was chop / change every single match.
I can tell you matter of fact most of what LVG's best XI was.
There's a thing called transitions in football. As has been pointed out by myself and @Aloysius's Back 3 - Our MF was lacking pace / tempo and even if he went with Herrera in there it still lacked it. There is only so much a manager can fix in a certain time frame, but folks like you expected world class everything instantly.
Our defence had improved with a settled CB pairing in Smalling / Blind. Shaw was his LB until he broke his leg.
Attack was fairly settled with Rooney or Rashford playing CF, LW was Martial and RW was Mata.
The MF was the issue and arguably for many still is an issue cause Matic's legs are gone and Fred is still adapting. Our MF has been a constant issue for all managers.
A "Terrible" defense which protected De Gea from having to save more shots than it did in the next 2 years?
The stats show De Gea was worked far more frequently per 90 mins in his 2 seasons under Jose. The defense was literally by passed / breached over and over every single game with Jose there and his tactical set up.
The stat does not in anyway at all prove your point
I'll give you further evidence.
Smalling - Look at his PL performance data for 2015/16 vs 2016/17. He performed far better all round in 15/16 than a year later. The only thing that shows an improvement on is Clearances going from 5.1 clearances to 7 per 90mins. If anything this again proves he had more work to do due to our tactical set up and inviting teams to attack us.
https://www.sofascore.com/player/chris-smalling/47741
Blind - Same story again! He performed superbly alongside Smalling. Please feel free to look at his performance data again in the Premier league for 2015/16 vs a year later in 2016/17. All round, everything he performed far better for LVG than he done for Jose.
https://www.sofascore.com/player/daley-blind/44864
There was a working CB partnership which Jose broke up and favored Bailly in there and dropped Smalling. Due to us conceding possession to our opponents, the MF and DF was over ran and we relied upon De Gea to be the Great Wall and "save" us over and over.
The performance data proves this. Common sense dictates if you don't have the ball you are a defensive / reactionary team, I mean wasn't it a common complaint about us conceding first and having to continually come from behind to save points in games under Jose? By my rough count this morning we went behind in 14 premier leagues under LVG to save points. Jose, 17 games where we went behind.
For me there is a clear indication that even before a ball is kicked our mindset was negative to allow our opponents to come at us, hang on, wait for errors and try punish them, a clear defeatist attitude and hanging on for survival.
The point about Shaw was that Jose had fallen out with him time and time again. He routinely blamed Shaw for defeats, at one point he said something along the lines of him being stupid and lacking intelligence I believe.
Sample here of his near weekly public shaming he received.
So? He played well in all positions. Blind is a quality footballer, I'd give anything to have Blind back in our team over some of our current options at LB or CM. Thank feck we've Young at LB as cover now, its not like he's costing us games is it?
Sure Blind is doing nowt with Ajax as well, just a CL Semi Final is all.
No manager gets all their transfers right, not LVG's fault Blind was sold. He is more than good enough to play over Matic currently and arguably every bit as good as Fred or McTominay.
Herrera is still there and done a job for Jose in his first season.
Bastian & Morgan failed sure, so be it.
The bit in bold, well lets not forget Carrick retired as LVG was outgoing. Again, he would of had to have been replaced and as we didn't get to see season 3 of LVG we won't know how he would of been replaced. Weather it was Jose or LVG that choice had to be made.
Random? NO. Supporting my argument, Yes!
You just post cliched bollicks pal.
Yes rough time, remember the chants of boring at games from self entitled wank stains, judging by your sentiments here I'd not be surprised to see you condone or be surprised if you were part of it.
LVG made every attempt at rebuilding our squad, he invested in youth and obviously tried to play the United way by investing in exciting, wide, pacey attacking players with Memphis, ADM and Martial. Memphis had a rotten attitude, ADM didn't want to be here and I believe this signing was more to do with marketing and his hand was forced but he still gave him a fair crack at it and Martial delivered.
I asked you a very simple question which you have conveniently deleted in your idiotic ranting here.
If Ole fails to get top 4 next season would you be in favor of sacking him? Simple yes or no will suffice.
Maybe, just maybe it was because Keane was older and further along in his development? SHOCK HORROR!
He debuted in 2011 (18 Years old) and was out on loan across the Championship (5 clubs) and supporters were crying out for him to be played by LVG. He done that and gave him a run out aged 22! He got injured and who was next in line? Rashford.
Rashford at the time was 18. He hadn't been out on loan at all, hadn't played for ANY senior side.
Seriously talk about twisting things to suit your clear obsessive hatred of LVG.
Maybe if you actually used some common sense and judged fairly without your clear personal disliking of LVG cloud your sentiments you'd actually see this is just common sense again, something you seriously lack.
Whole paragraph is complete bollicks in a nutshell. Standard for you at this point though.
I'm on about since he's left United.
Last season Memphis was involved in more goals in the French league than Mbappe & Neymar. He's not done as well this season but still doing fine with goal involvement every other game. He's been involved in approx 80 goals in 110 games for Lyon ffs.
Your not sure about weather Falcao performed for Monaco?
Falcao was well worth the risk as all I'm saying and the point is proven by his form after his horrible injuries. It didn't hurt the club financially signing him, Jose felt he was worth the same risk too. It's feckin moronic to say otherwise but you will cause you know your clear disliking of LVG.
And on the flip side of that what did he give?
Smalling & Blind a performing CB pairing, Shaw at LB with Varela or TFM at RB coming through.
Herrera in MF
Martial on the LW, Rashford as CF.
That's 8 players I count.
Get over your feckin obsession of expecting managers to deliver perfect transfers.
It's posted routinely here that Jose performed far better, just pointing out the fallacy in that argument. He did not.
LVG Day of sacking - tied with 4th on pts
Jose Day of Sacked - 11 points off 4th.
Mata has always suffered that way and forced to play RW for all managers. It's not something that only happened during LVG's tenure. He was used often as a RW at Chelsea, Moyes done the same, LVG done the same, Jose has and now even Ole.
No he didn't, you're wrong.
Simple click here... 25 games as CF and just 7 as a winger.
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ant...14&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=
You said this on an earlier post...
"The front 3 LVG build after 2 years of transfer business was number 10 and 9s playing on the wing including 2 inconsistent youngsters, no top striker, no top winger, no player that can score +20 goals a season."
Point I'm making is our front line was in better shape under LVG. It was more evenly balanced with pace, tempo and creativity than what Jose left us with.
We had a CF at CF, A player with the ability to play LW playing LW and a senior player that had often played RW albeit him being shoehorned into the side there. But still LVG also tried to address the RW issue by buying ADM but it didn't work out and we recouped most of our money spent there.
We had wingers in Martial and Memphis, Jose phased out Martial by refusing to play him even though he was performing and Memphis was given a whopping FOUR games to prove himself before he shipped him out to Lyon. Hardly given a fair crack with Jose was he?
It's sad and pathetic your praise for Ole for youth but sum up LVG's use of youth as "luck".
Ole is focusing on youth the same way LVG did.
Ole uses Greenwood, Garner, Chong & Gomes and is praised as it was all planned...
But
When LVG involved youth he had no plan, he only used them cause of injuries and deserves no praise?
We had injuries going into recent games. Martial, Rashford and Lingard all missed games and in turn he debuted Garner, Chong & Greenwood.Exactly the same situation behind LVG debuting Rashford (Martial got injured), Borthwith Jackon due to an injury crisis (again a link is provided).
LVG "Depended" as you put it for Ole on youth players to step up. You have read far too much BS articles from the sun / 90 mins and bought it as gospel. Almost ALL youth players debut due to injuries / bans. It's fecking moronic to slate a particular manager for debuting youths for this and praising another but that is exactly what you have done here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Borthwick-Jackson
Clear, biased and ill informed agenda against LVG.
One of the greatest managers in the history of the game who used youth players to his advantage throughout his career, but only at United can we find Supporters who use terms like "Luck".
Was it luck that LVG debuted a world class Ajax side, Iniesta, Muller, Alaba, Badstuber & Xavi to name but a few? But he "got lucky" finding Rashford?
I'm sick to the back of my feckin teeth with plebs like you posting utter, utter nonsense! An entire career with a clear, concise plan focused on youth players and we've fecking idiots posting about luck.
You very much seem to think all our issues can be righted in a single summer and we can go from struggling to achieve top 4 to premier league champions and dominate again. It isn't that simple and all managers are going to have mistakes with transfers and rely on youth in times of injuries / bans.
Hence I keep asking you, if Ole performs in a similar manner and fails to get top 4 next season will you be running here to abuse him too and call for his head. We eventually have to say to a manager its OK to fail as long as work is being done and we are moving in the right direction, which we were under LVG. We went from 4th to 7th, the team was being rebuilt and had at least 8 players who made up the core of it and a clear focus on youth, a long term vision.
There is a bizzare agenda against in LVG on here.
Like most I had enough of him and was happy when we sacked him but hindsight is a wonderful thing and I just wish now we had of given him another season and stayed well clear of Jose.
It's embarrassing it really is.
It was luck, pure luck didn't you know that he created an entire Ajax side, Found Bayern legends like Muller and Alaba and then repeated it with Barca with Xavi & Iniesta.
He was a very successful manager because he focused on youth and developed them.
Because it didn't happen instantaneously (it never will for any manager working with youth) his spell here is summarized by folks as an abject failure. Which is so far from the truth.
He signed on with a 3 year plan and was moving in the right direction, maybe not as fast as we'd like but it was still improvement whilst remaining competitive to some degree within in the league.
Not at all ill informed and unlike yourself I clearly do not have an agenda, like I say no one made him turn Rooney into a midfielder or that the Captain always has to play. From a third season a year of Rooney in midfield offered no long term benefit and would most likely have been very unsuccessful. That’s the reality that’s what he was doing.
I am actually not complaining he played youngsters, no issue with that. My point is they only played when everyone was injured and then were dropped even if they done well. Again there was no incentive for a third season as all those players names in my previous post would have been the ones playing. There was no benefit short or long term to keeping him despite how people try to spin it. The real issue was the club replaced him with another manager who was past his best and didn’t reform.
Rooney wasn't performing, he tried something different with him and gave Rooney his wish of trying his luck at MF.
Thanks to the new deal Rooney got we were well and truly stuck with him for at least another 2-3 seasons which is exactly what happened. Two years of LVG and a final year with Jose.
By that point and the record being broken he was far more easily moved on.
Would folks of preferred he publicly slated him on a weekly basis? To many Rooney was still very much a legend, our best player, untouchable so LVG done the best he could with him.
Or maybe just admit that backing himself into a corner and saying Rooney had to always play was a mistake. That converting Rooney into a
midfielder was a misjudgment.
LVG was poor in the transfer market what was the point in giving him another season and wasting more money, he was still building his team around a declining Rooney, his style of play was dated and boring.
Giving him one more year before he retired made zero sense. He tried something different and tried to rebuild but it was failing and he was still playing and buying deadwood.
OK, Lets try look at this realistically & objectively.
Rooney was not LVG's mistake, Rooney was gifted his new deal by Moyes & Ed.
Rooney signed a new 5 and a half year deal on 21st Feb 2014 ( https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/26287482 ), paying him 300K Per Week! At the time this made him one of the worlds best paid players alongside Ronaldo & Messi. The deal was absolutely mental! Which is a common complaint in recent years I think you'd agree.
LVG was confirmed as United manager approx 3 months later on 19th May 2014. It was a problem he inherited.
So what had LVG inherited? A 29 year old in a huge decline, on 300K per week with 5 years left on his contract who was still lauded over by our board and a very large portion of our fan base as a club legend, one of our greatest ever players to some and on the cusp of breaking the clubs goal scoring record.
Realistically what were LVG's options with Rooney?
A) Keep him and play him - Which he done, give him a try at CF and if it doesn't work try him in another role (CM).
B) Phase him out of the team - risking the ire of the board (who had just gifted him this new deal only months prior) and the fan base.
C) Sell him - Similar to B, but considering how the fan base lost its collective shit with the sales of bit part, inferior, squad types like Welbeck & Hernandez, why would he do this?
If there is another option by all means divulge but by and large that's the options with any player in a squad for a manager to decide upon.
So I put it to you what would you do if you inherited the same problem LVG did?
I don’t think you can look at this objectively and realistically to be honest. Like I said he didn’t have to back himself into a corner by saying Rooney always has to to play and didnt have to start playing him in a position he isn’t suited to.
I think everyone is aware Moyes gave him a contract so no idea why you keep going on about that as it’s not relevant.
LVG inherited a problem, made it worse and then can up with a poor solution, that basically sums it up.
I said this back when LVG was our manager -
But his 'favouritism' of Rooney was not due to his current footballing abilities - it was the fact that LVG was reshaping his whole squad by dropping players, promoting players, buying players whilst selling players almost making a decision that would effect our first team every 2-3 weeks.
Rooney was kept to provide some balance & him saying 'his captain should always play' was an indication of his meanings - not an indication of the importance of Rooney the player.
Problem as usual was the fans at the time were not understanding what LVG was doing & decided to judge him on his abilities to win a title with us - being downright shocked how a off form, degenerative Rooney was still being picked week in week out.
But his 'favouritism' of Rooney was not due to his current footballing abilities - it was the fact that LVG was reshaping his whole squad by dropping players, promoting players, buying players whilst selling players almost making a decision that would effect our first team every 2-3 weeks.
Rooney was kept to provide some balance & him saying 'his captain should always play' was an indication of his meanings - not an indication of the importance of Rooney the player.
Problem as usual was the fans at the time were not understanding what LVG was doing & decided to judge him on his abilities to win a title with us - being downright shocked how a off form, degenerative Rooney was still being picked week in week out.
I'm asking you your opinion on how you would handle it if you were in his situation.
He had 3 options and went with the least harmful one of the 3.
You are avoiding answering the question cause you know I make a very good point.
This, this all freakin day!
Rooney was our most senior player, considered a legend by the board and fans a like. Most would of lost their minds had LVG done anything, absolutely anything other than what he did do.
Folks seem to think its as easy as Football Manager, click a button and off a player goes and it has no effects in turn.
If he dropped or sold Rooney he would of been slaughtered immediately by the fan base and been in his own managers (Woodward) bad books immediately. The board had just signed off on deal for Rooney costing the club over €16m over the next 5 years in wages.
Essentially he was trapped with Rooney.
LVG had never, I don't think, worked for such a commercially-driven club before and I don't think he ever got to grips with that side of it. He has said as much of late.
Yes and added to that, he has a career of hating "Galactico" type players. He has fallen out with many big names over his career in favor of youth.
ADM was definitely a "Galactico" type signing made by Woody. Arguably Memphis was somewhere between the two, that too didn't work out.
There is a reason why he went and gave debuts to 15 young lads and got great results from Martial & Rashford, it was his preference.
Van Gaal didn't spend as much as Mourinho. He didn't sign Herrera and Shaw, remember? And most of di Maria's fees was already recouped after he left for PSG. His only signings were Darmain, Rojo, Falcao, Schweisteiger, Blind, Schneiderlin, Depay and Martial, of which majority of them were punts taken.
Kroos also. He was the coach who started Bastian Schweisteiger's journey in the midfield, after he switched him from his previous winger role. He did a lot for Germany, Spanish, the Dutch national team.
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No you have decided he only had 3 options, and it’s not a good point at all, it’s biased. All he had to do was pick him on merit in his best position, if he wasn’t good enough then drop him and play someone else. It was one of the few things Mourinho actually got right, he actually handled that well.
Weird to look back at that list with Depay and Blind now playing well elsewhere, but from that list, only Martial ever really made himself a regular for us.
He misjudged Rooney’s ability and backed himself into a corner, no harm in just saying what happened rather than fabricating something and passing it off as ‘intelligent’.
By his second season he should have worked out Rooney was done but he hadnt and had gone all in, a mistake no matter how people try to spin it.
There is no fabricating at all.
Some people can only see what's their eyes tells them whilst others will atleast attempt to use the brain to understand what they are seeing.
If you think that LVG who was trying to rebuild the squad with much youngsters as possible in his second season was using Rooney at 30 years old as a vital part of his long term plans then so be it - I don't really feel like there's any benefit of making you see it any other way.
The amount of mental gymnastics in this thread
LVG is one of those managers with cult following. It's only because everything went tits up for Mourinho that we're not hearing about the "LVG foundations" bollocks. But make no mistake, it's bound to happen if Ole does well next season.
LVG is one of those managers with cult following. It's only because everything went tits up for Mourinho that we're not hearing about the "LVG foundations" bollocks. But make no mistake, it's bound to happen if Ole does well next season.
Love that your waiting for it mate because its happening 100%The amount of mental gymnastics in this thread
LVG is one of those managers with cult following. It's only because everything went tits up for Mourinho that we're not hearing about the "LVG foundations" bollocks. But make no mistake, it's bound to happen if Ole does well next season.
And some peoples brains try to bend the truth and fabricate a story to try and justify their biased opinion which isn’t the meaning of intelligence believe it or not.
If he was thinking long term then getting rid of or at least not making Rooney so integral would have been the right call. He made a mistake, you can still like LVG and admit he got it wrong.
Whatever the circumstances Rooney as a
midfielder and having to play was an error. Not saying it was an easy decision or that the managers wasn’t in a difficult situation. But it’s comical to try and pass everything off as being some sort of master plan and praising your own intelligence. That comment shows you are either desperate/deluded or have an very high opinion of yourself.
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I wasn't going to replay any farther, but I can't leave a post filled with such terrible points without replaying. Gonna be my last post though.
Blind got switched from midfield to LB then CB and didn't play for midfield again so it was a signing wasted from midfield.
Bastian played only 18 matches in the league and Morgan failed miserably. Not to mention even the only good one, Herrera, was benched by LVG because he doesn't "retain possession".
So basically LVG wasted all his midfield signings and thus ended up playing with Moyes one.
But 50/50.
Let's move to the next.I didn't say LVG didn't attempt a rebuilt. He attempted and failed, took a crap team who collected 66 points, filled with aging players and deadwood and left a crap team who collected 64 points, filled with crap players and deadwood.
The team he left needed a rebuild again which was ridiculous considering he was the one hired to do it, that he bought 11 players and spent 250m and his reign ended with all the positions in terrible state and the team collecting as much points as Moyes did while scoring far less goals.
Mourinho or whoever was going to get appointed had a massive task on his hands to deal with the mess LVG left behind. The fact Mourinho failed in his last season didn't change anything.
LVG's 2 years were basically a waste for the club. No progress in the squad or results.
And his best XI was shite.
Again with the midfield.
It's like you're brainwashed by LVG and don't read the points. He signed 4 fecking midfielders and we're still complaining about how the midfield lacked pace. Maybe if he had chosen proper midfielders instead of signing aging Bastian, Blind to switch to CB and Morgan that midfield would have had some pace and tempo.Our defense with settled with a combo that needed midfield to retain possession all the time in our own field and GK saving their arses.
Shaw was settled as our main LB, because he played the first five games in the second season, even though he wasn't even a permanent starter in first season and Blind was our main LB during our best period under LVG when we defeated City, Pool and Spurs.
Our attack was settled with a paste it Rooney who got shifted to midfield to cover his deficiencies, 2 inconsistent youngsters and a slow as feck number 10 playing on the right wing.
Everything is settled I see. Great rebuilding job.
I don't know if you're even reading the points made or not anymore. For the last time it's expected for our defense and GK to work more under Mourinho because he doesn't favor possession and depends on inviting teams to attack so he can counter. That's not the point, do you even read ?A "Terrible" defense which protected De Gea from having to save more shots than it did in the next 2 years?
The stats show De Gea was worked far more frequently per 90 mins in his 2 seasons under Jose. The defense was literally by passed / breached over and over every single game with Jose there and his tactical set up.
The stat does not in anyway at all prove your point
I'll give you further evidence.
Smalling - Look at his PL performance data for 2015/16 vs 2016/17. He performed far better all round in 15/16 than a year later. The only thing that shows an improvement on is Clearances going from 5.1 clearances to 7 per 90mins. If anything this again proves he had more work to do due to our tactical set up and inviting teams to attack us.
https://www.sofascore.com/player/chris-smalling/47741
Blind - Same story again! He performed superbly alongside Smalling. Please feel free to look at his performance data again in the Premier league for 2015/16 vs a year later in 2016/17. All round, everything he performed far better for LVG than he done for Jose.
https://www.sofascore.com/player/daley-blind/44864
There was a working CB partnership which Jose broke up and favored Bailly in there and dropped Smalling. Due to us conceding possession to our opponents, the MF and DF was over ran and we relied upon De Gea to be the Great Wall and "save" us over and over.
The performance data proves this. Common sense dictates if you don't have the ball you are a defensive / reactionary team, I mean wasn't it a common complaint about us conceding first and having to continually come from behind to save points in games under Jose? By my rough count this morning we went behind in 14 premier leagues under LVG to save points. Jose, 17 games where we went behind.
For me there is a clear indication that even before a ball is kicked our mindset was negative to allow our opponents to come at us, hang on, wait for errors and try punish them, a clear defeatist attitude and hanging on for survival.
The point is if the defense LVG left was dependable or not. The point that it clearly wasn't, seeing that once the possession retention style LVG applied to protect them and decrease the number of shots was removed, they got exposed badly, which frankly all your stats prove, with the number of saves and number of games we got behind increased.
So the defense LVG built was built on retaining possession to decrease number of shots and GK saving their arse rather than building a proper defense that can depend on its own and will support the upcoming manager that may very, very well may not be possession obsessed manager.
But LVG left a fragile defense that needed too much protection from midfield and GK to work.
And he ended up playing him as a regular starter this season prior to his sacking.The point about Shaw was that Jose had fallen out with him time and time again. He routinely blamed Shaw for defeats, at one point he said something along the lines of him being stupid and lacking intelligence I believe.
Sample here of his near weekly public shaming he received.
So? He played well in all positions. Blind is a quality footballer, I'd give anything to have Blind back in our team over some of our current options at LB or CM. Thank feck we've Young at LB as cover now, its not like he's costing us games is it?
Sure Blind is doing nowt with Ajax as well, just a CL Semi Final is all.
What is that related to him signing him for midfield and ending up not playing him there at all ?So? He played well in all positions. Blind is a quality footballer, I'd give anything to have Blind back in our team over some of our current options at LB or CM. Thank feck we've Young at LB as cover now, its not like he's costing us games is it?
Sure Blind is doing nowt with Ajax as well, just a CL Semi Final is all.
No manager gets all the transfer right but he got almost all of them wrong in midfield and attack bar 1 while we clearly needed an upgrade there which left both in a terrible state when it shouldn't be after 4 midfield signings and 3 forward signings.
Carrick stayed the next 2 seasons after LVG left.
Making an attempt at rebuilding.
He was hired to do that. Ridiculous to take this as a praise when that was the target of hiring him.
He attempted the rebuild yeah and as I said everything points to him failing miserably in progressing the squad any forward 2 years after he left. Took a crap squad, sold the deadwood and replaced them with other deadwood, the squad was still terrible in every position, defense, midfield, attack, all needed major signings. The results weren't improving, losing 8 and 10 games in his both seasons. Scoring less goals than Moyes season in both of his seasons, including a diabolical 49 goals in his second. Collecting a nearly equal points to what Moyes did, 70 and 66, 4 and 2 points respectively than Moyes season. Playing shite on stick football and driving people to sleep.
Basically there's nothing he did in his 2 years that shows any kind of progression from Moyes season.
Not the squad, not the results, not the points, not the goals, not the style of football. Nothing.
And all these are facts supported by real numbers, not by nonsense arguments.
As for your question, no he won't be fully responsible for it because he was hired mid season and was supposed to be an interim manager.
So I get from this point he was really favoring Will Keane and wanting to play him ahead of Rashford because he was more senior figure, as he had no plans for Rashford at all otherwise the big guy wouldn't have returned Keane from the loan and would have simply pushed Rashford forward in selection behind Rooney and Martial to have a chance when both out, instead of adding yet another player that would have kept Rashford away from selection and if Keane had never been injured he would have probably never heard of Rashford.
Thanks for posting some random nonsense points that twists and ends up proving what I'm talking about, because I'm sure at this point you don't even read what you're replaying on.
Is this part supposed to shite on LVG for failing to use the players he signed ? Do you even realize the guy bought Depay and benched him for most of the season, couldn't deal with him and didn't even know what his best position is despite him playing under him with national team at World Cup 1 year prior to LVG signing him ?I'm on about since he's left United.
Last season Memphis was involved in more goals in the French league than Mbappe & Neymar. He's not done as well this season but still doing fine with goal involvement every other game. He's been involved in approx 80 goals in 110 games for Lyon ffs.
Your not sure about weather Falcao performed for Monaco?
Falcao was well worth the risk as all I'm saying and the point is proven by his form after his horrible injuries. It didn't hurt the club financially signing him, Jose felt he was worth the same risk too. It's feckin moronic to say otherwise but you will cause you know your clear disliking of LVG.
But you're talking about Depay ripping it apart now away from United, even though his attitude still sucks as much as it was at United, so looks like LVG was clueless in using the players he signed even those who were under him previously.
Maybe if he was able to use his players well Depay would have "ripped" it at United under LVG too ?Another terrible random point that just twists and ends up against you.
Rehash point that I replied on it loads of time but as I said, you don't even read so it's common sense you'll post your same terrible points again and again.
Varela.
I don't even believe yourself when you mention the likes of Varela and TFM. The hardest brainwashed LVG fans won't say such things.
Varela played only 11 matches this season. He's now playing in Denmark.
Mourinho wasn't a success but he definitely performed better than the dross LVG served in his 2 seasons. Your point is a nonsense way to look at it. We finished higher in the league in Mourinho second season and the 81 points we gathered in his second season and left us 19 points away from the title, was believe it or not, the same number of points Leicester won the league with while LVG was here which shows how crap the league LVG was managing in was and yet still failed to get 4th. More points, more goals, more trophies, better signings. I guess someone else mentioned this in another discussion on you in this thread.
Doesn't matter how many managers did it, it's still shite to play a slow as feck number 10 on the flank.
Martial started as striker.
He then switched him to LW this season from the first half because he fell out with Depay and was clueless how to use him so benched him and played Martial in his position as he didn't see other options.
Later on Rooney returned in Jan and he took the striker position with Martial still on the left.
At the end Rashford was discovered as a lucky hit and both Rooney and Martial were both injured so he played Rashford up top and put Depay again on the left.
When both returned from injury he reshuffled the attack, shoehorned Rooney in midfield because "My captain shall always play", kept Rashford at striker position and put Martial on the left wing.
All this and the right wing was dead with Mata and Lingard.
We watched the season you know. I don't need stats to tell you what happened.
More balanced, tempo, creativity.
This attack scored a whole lot of fecking 49 goals in this league campaign. We were the second weakest attack in the top 10 after fecking Stock. All the rest scored more than us, the nearest team to us in terms of goals scored 59 goals!!
It's ridiculous you keep mentioning Depay when LVG was the one who benched him, didn't know what to do with him and ended up playing Martial ahead of him whenever he was fit.
I'm not sure you were even following this season from the ridiculous amount of points that contradict what really happened.
LVG was throwing random youth left, right and center in every position even the terrible ones waiting for any lucky hit to get praised for. From the loads of youth he promoted only one succeeded. It's terrible approach with terrible results. The rest of youngsters he promoted completely disappeared during and after he left.
Ole is promoting the well known good talents from academy and playing them on needed instead of throwing them randomly.
The difference is clear. You're just brainwashed by LVG.
So don't replay any farther. Fecking hell, I'm the one tired by all your nonsense and terrible logic throwing random points left, right and center without any cohesion and using points that show you weren't even watching United in LVG period. Nonsense like Depay and Varela is as ridiculous as they can get.
Anyway don't worry, this is my last post on such terrible argument. Definitely one of my worst discussions here.
No one said such things. It would have been no problem if after 2 summers we still had some issues to solve while other were solved. The problem is 2 summer markets, 250m spent on 11 players and absolutely nothing has been solved or progressed since Moyes was sacked. It's ridiculous to claim another summer would have solved this mess.
The squad was as crap as he got it, still needing major signings in midfield and attack, playing shite on stick football on weekly basis, collecting number of points per season close to what Moyes was collecting in his diabolical season and scoring far less goals than Moyes season.
Absolutely nothing has been solved or progressed in 2 years time. Ridiculous from a manager hired to make a rebuild to see such a thing after 2 years and 250m spent on 11 players.
Don't put Ole getting a job midway in a season in the same bracket as LVG fecking up 2 full years without progressing even a single thing, style, results, goals, squad or points.
If Ole fails in the next 2 years he'll be evaluated harshly, but it's nonsense and absolute BS to compare 2 full years to one half season. Do you even believe yourself posting such nonsense then claiming others for posting nonsense ?
Goodbye as this is my last post in such terrible discussion.
Jose performed better than LVG oh dear
One manager is the epitomy of glory hunting and fabricated supporter.
oh dearOne manager is the epitomy of glory hunting and fabricated supporter.
Let's not rewrite history here. Some of the most dire football the last 7 years has been played under Moyes and LvG.
He simply didn't have the luxury of time to overhaul the team and the performances on the pitch simply didn't add up to grant him more time. I hated the way he was treated at the end. He should have been given the luxury of celebrating his FA Cup win and informed personally first. Instead he was sacked almost immediately and found out through 3rd party sources. It was done without class or spine. But that doesn't detract from the fact that LvG simply couldn't turn the ship around and his days were numbered.
He simply didn't have the luxury of time to overhaul the team and the performances on the pitch simply didn't add up to grant him more time. I hated the way he was treated at the end. He should have been given the luxury of celebrating his FA Cup win and informed personally first. Instead he was sacked almost immediately and found out through 3rd party sources. It was done without class or spine. But that doesn't detract from the fact that LvG simply couldn't turn the ship around and his days were numbered.
And yes, contrary to popular belief, Jose did perform better than LvG. He won a minor treble in his first season. Or did everyone just conveniently forget that?
Why do we still have van Gaal thread? Aren't we all just ignoring that period, pretending it never happened? Same as the manager before him. Horrible period.
My point about the Tottenham game is that we were absolute crap around that period, which was near the end of the season.
You skipped over the whole part where we only scored 49 goals in a season. Not one of our players scored 10 goals. Calling that diabolical is a compliment. Surely, you don't think that is alright?
Yes, the league was weaker. How can you say otherwise? Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manutd, ManCity were all pretty crap that season. Tottenham was the only other decent team, but even they were not as good as they are now.
Man City and Liverpool are far better than they were then. Even though Chelsea aren't amazing, they are much better than they were that season. Manutd are not great now, but they are better than they were in Van Gaal's last season season.
Do you think that Leicester team would win the league now? If you say no, that instantly means the league is far stronger now.
We were so bad in Van Gaal's last season, I would argue we were better at the start of this season under Mourinho. Seriously, I think people forget just how bad that season was. That is the only season I have missed half of the games because they were so bad - Mourinho's wasn't blistering but it was better than the last season of Van Gaal.
Anyone remember 'Zlatan coming in will help Rashford', 'sanchez coming in will help martial'
These Jose fans were just craving for success because their love for United comes from their success than their methods
Funny thing is - they will ask you where LVG's foundations went when its suited to them then tell you Jose won a minor treble in his first season following LVG & that's why Jose was better
Funny how players in this minor treble like Blind & Martial got less and less important and the progress as the team got worse and worse.
Jose was the epitomy of what's wrong with this club looking for quick successes without attempting to shape the club for long term success. Whilst I'm not pretending LVG is the main man for this long term plan but to consider him not better than Jose at it is simply wrong.
Now Ole will start rebuilding a long term plan something that blends more with LVG than Jose any day of the week.
These Jose fans were just craving for success because their love for United comes from their success than their methods
Funny thing is - they will ask you where LVG's foundations went when its suited to them then tell you Jose won a minor treble in his first season following LVG & that's why Jose was better
Funny how players in this minor treble like Blind & Martial got less and less important and the progress as the team got worse and worse.
Jose was the epitomy of what's wrong with this club looking for quick successes without attempting to shape the club for long term success. Whilst I'm not pretending LVG is the main man for this long term plan but to consider him not better than Jose at it is simply wrong.
Now Ole will start rebuilding a long term plan something that blends more with LVG than Jose any day of the week.
And after him. Jose was the majority of the fans dream & I'm very glad that turned out wrong - I wouldn't be able to handle the threads for his love.