Also, Nani got sent off for a lot less than Harry Kane did yesterday (high foot to poke the ball, studs in the head of PSG player)
VAR and Refereeing 2025/26 | General Discussion
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Yeah but that Nani red card is one of the worst red card decisions you'll ever see.
Yeah but that was a terrible decision to send Nani off. Although I agree it should have been a free against Kane. That was the most obvious refereeing mistake last night, in my opinion.
Does it not strike you as extremely silly that this incident inside the box is not a yellow, as per the rules, as you agreed, but it is a yellow on the half way line?
Referees are given guidance on how to practically implement the rules and I'd be very surprised if refs don't apply the same principle on the half way line on an innocuous non-deliberate handball.
If the rule is genuinely that this incident isn't a yellow in the box but is on the halfway line, the rules need changing.
Fletcher’s red card against Arsenal in the CL takes a lot to beat
Whenever I am about to forget about that red, someone mentions it.
It looks incredibly suspect, basically like they're doing everything they can to keep PSG with 11 players. If they were going to give the Laimer handball, then why isn't it called before Mendes handles it, no sign of the referee going for his whistle.
It doesn't look like the ball hits Laimer's arm to me from the front on video, but even if there's a brush, you can't see on the video, the ball 100% doesn't change direction it doesn't affect his control of it, his arm is in a natural position, it's not deliberate and therefore not handball anyway.
Mendes is making his body bigger with his arms, he stops a promising attack, this is exactly what the referees are told to penalise and how "deliberate" handball is meant to be decided, it's 100% a yellow card so he should be off.
It's hard to forget because that was Fergie's last ever European game. We were on our way to knocking out Madrid before the ref wanted some attention.
Good - if it's not obviously deliberate, it doesn't need to be a penalty for me anyways. Or they could introduce more indirect FKs in case a not deliberate handball denies a goal or clear goal-scoring chance for example, but awarding a penalty for these situations is a price way too steep for 99% of the offenses inside the box as well.
The natural position stuff only applies when the ball is blasted into an arm. What happens here is he uses one of his arms to help control the ball. That’s a fairly standard reason for calling handball. Happens all the time. It’s difficult to tell from that clip but you can see that Mendes definitely sees something, so we can assume the assistant referee saw the same.
Then tell me why in Portuguese league a penalty was awarded in a very similar situation.
Again you are fantasying. Laimer played the ball with chest/body. There is not a single angle that proofs it was a handball.
On Sunday the whole forum agreed the Sesko's goal must stand because there wasn't any footage clearly showing the ball touched his hand. Double standards.
On the first point, refs being inconsistent is hardly a shocker. Especially when comparing Europe to a (lower) domestic league.
Second point is comparing apples and oranges. VAR overturning a goal and no VAR for a pite goal booking and hence no threshold to overturn anything
But neither are discussions.
The video evidence clearly shows Laimer doesn't touch it with his hands.
The law clearly states what a tactical handball is and that it should result in a yellow card.
There is nothing to discuss in terms of "should it have been a second yellow". It should have factually been a second yellow.
What's worth discussing is why the ref didn't consult the 4th official who supposedly gave him the input and why the ref shied away from his original handball call against PSG (as indicated by his freekick arm gesture when he first runs over).
There is video evidence that Laimer played it with his chest and Mendes stopped the attack with his arm. The ref got it wrong and the video is in this very topic just 1 page back.
Tactical handball, second yellow for Mendes after 28 mins.
11v10 at that point.
The way the Match went PSG 100% deserved to go through after 90 mins. But the game should've been in a drastically different state from the 29th minute until the end.
So while PSG deserved to go through, Bayern were robbed of playing with 1 man advantage for minimum 62 mins plus both stoppage times and a potential extra time.
Not if it's the same referee.
It's not about VAR. The referee had a good view and only blew the whistle after Mendes handball and not when Laimer played the ball.
The 4th official said something and the ref gave a free kick to PSG. Wrong decision with am huge impact. Mendes out will benefit Olise and PSG has to take one of their 3 forwards off.
All questionable decisions went in PSG favor. This doesn't help to build confidence and in the end decides games between 2 equal teams.
I know there are tweets saying it's the same ref but I think someone checked and it wasn't.
You are also forgetting the first leg where Ramos rugby tackled Welbeck when he was through on goal and the ref just ignored it...and then later blew the full time whistle before the allocated stoppage time was up because we were about to be through on goal.
I thought PSG were just comfortably better over the two legs. The score line flattered Bayern. The handball could have been a red but I don't think its up there as a massive controversy. It'd have been a pretty harsh way to get sent off
I’ve seen the “evidence” and it isn’t conclusive.
Oh, I remember those, too! All in all, a very shady tie. Was it Ramos or am I thinking of another incident where Varane probably should've seen red? I think he fouled Evra as the last man at one point in the 1st leg.
That was probably our last great UCL performance as we would've gone through had it not been for some dodgy officiating. People think we'd have had no chance regardless but you never know. If we were still in it by the point that the news of Fergie retiring became public, it could've spurred us on.
What on earth has an incorrect decision in the Portugese league got to do with any of this?!
You’re wrong about the consensus on Sesko. A lot of people on here (me included) think the goal should have been disallowed, according to the way the rules are currently applied. And it’s not comparable because it was an incident with loads of different close up replays, from lots of different views. You’re seeing what you want to see from a couple of unclear replays from only two angles, one of which is at a distance.
When looked in isolation then probably but combine it with the Davies penalty in the first leg, the Neves handball and the general refereeing performance over the two legs (Kane offside, Diaz foul) it's very understandable for Bayern fans to be frustrated.
Over the two legs it was very close, Bayern had more xG in both matches iirc. In the end, I think the difference was Olisie and Musiala not being incisive enough with the chances they had. If they had their shooting boots on, Bayern would've won.
But it is conclusive unless you say you've actually seen Laimer handle the ball or you say you haven't seen Mendes handle the ball with his arm being in an unnatural position that enlarges his body.
Even if Laimer doesn't use his hand, the ball is kicked to Mendes' upper arm from quite a short distance. Technically he probably should have gotten a second yellow for it, but I honestly think there should be room for non-intentional handballs just being fouls without yellow cards. Maybe too hard to distinguish though, I don't know.
Conclusive would be definitive evidence to contradict what the assistant saw. Which doesn’t exist. There seems to be only two replays, one of which is from a distance. The close up replay is only from one angle and definitely doesn’t rule out the possibility Laimer used his upper arm to help control the ball.
Which one have you seen ?? There is a video compilation of every angle on reddit and it 100% hits him at the top of his thigh and ricochet off his abdomen which make the ball spin off to his right. No hand contact at any point.
I'm not sure. Bayern were the ones chasing and needing a goal for a majority of the two legs. During the brief part where PSG needed to find goals, they very quickly did, where as Bayern last night struggled really and looked like getting caught on the break numerous times.
What cost them was the collapse in the first leg. If they'd gone into last night level it would have maybe panned out differently.
The one in this thread. Football reddit is a train wreck full of braindead yanks, best avoided.
The one all people seem to use as "100% proof" is anything but. It's a front camera that can't with any sort of certainty show that there wasn't contact with his hand. The angle makes it impossible, which is beyond grasp for most people it seems.
From the assistant ref's POV it looks like it bounces off his arm and immediately after 2 PSG players start waiving in protest (which I imagine is why Mendes' arm is where it is once the ball hits him). In a sea of cardinal refereeing errors that have been plaguing football over the years, this one really isn't it.
Handball always has to be deliberate, all the guidance around it is just around what constitutes deliberate. If the assistant saw it, why has the play been allowed to continue ? The ref does absolutely nothing until the Mendes handball, the assistant can flag or quickly relay so play should have stopped already.
The assistant only sees the Laimer "hand ball" once it becomes clear Mendes will be off, looks pretty obvious to me what they're doing.
Well the bottom replay that you analyzed is the one that is conclusive. It's just in a bad resolution in that post. If you watch that angle in fullscreen and good resolution it happens exactly as i wrote: upper thigh then lower abdomen, no hand or arm contact. Don't care about the "braindead yanks", I'd rather get videos from reddit than radioactive twitter.
Of course it can. We saw the ball spin being affected with the slightiest of touch from Sesko's fingernail a few days ago. Here it would have a way bigger effect on the ball if he did touch it and it doesn't. The assistant ref's POV doesnt matter, he's in a bad position to judge it. He guessed and fecked up.
You're doing that classic online fan thing of obsessively looking at slow motion replays and ignoring the fact that decisions are made in real time and the whole series of incidents, from beginning to end, was over in a couple of seconds. All good referees allow themselves a bit of time to process complex situations, before making a decison, including taking on board advice from their assistants. Which is what happened here.
Fair point. I think it again goes down to the finishing of the PSG players compared to Bayern. Kvara, Dembele and Doue's shot making from half chances was fantastic. Olise and Musiala had similar openings but couldn't get good shots. In the second leg, PSG generated a PSxG of 1.91 from an xG of just 1.09 and in the first leg it was a PSxG of 2.65 from an xG of 1.9. Bayern's PSxG on the other hand was less their xG in both legs. In essence, Bayern's finishing was much poorer than PSG's.
In fact this has been a theme since last season because I think PSG have had lower xG in majority of their ties but their finishing has just been spectacular. Wenger said yesterday as well that if the PSG attackers get one-on-one then they're guaranteed to get in a good shot.
So let me get this straight. The referee signals for a freekick for Bayern because of a tactical handball on Mendes and comes running over but immediately gets overruled by the 4th (!) official, not VAR or the linesmen.
The 4th official though immediately is off to take care of the Bayern bench within seconds.
The ref and him are not even really communicating as the 4th official is busy with other stuff. It would've been a second yellow after 28 mins in a CL semifinal for 2 tactical offences that both stopped attacks where Olise is through on the right side.
Since when does the 4th official make decisions? Ref himself apparently said it was the 4th official who gave him the input and he signals this during the situation.
How does the 4th official supposedly give him this input when he's immediately off doing other things instead and talking to the Bayern bench.
Why doesn't the ref consult him again to be sure before coming to a conclusion in such a critical situation of a CL semifinal.
This and the Neves incident were clearly key elements in the game as the hand both times so obviously stopped the ball and everyone was able to see it. Bayern completely lost their rhythm as a result to these 2 incidents. You can argue they shouldn't have.
But while the specific rule situation for the Neves incident can be interpreted like it was, this one was obviously a missed red card. So Bayern for this one were clearly justified to be annoyed.
No, you really can't. You need a top down view to actually have proof the ball didn't slide down his arm, a camera shot which most likely doesn't exist. What you have here is inconclusive evidence. Ref's POV of course matters, he's right where he's supposed to be.
From his angle it looks like a handball, he makes the call. And for all your wailing, you can't prove with 100% certainty he's wrong.
I think you're probably being too reliant on data. For me the two ties were memorable for PSG butchering loads of great chances. They could and should have scored a lot more. A lot of those chances might not show up on xG as it involved them making a mess of the final pass in a 2v1 or 3v2.
These are 50:50 decisions. One game it's a penalty the next it isn't. The ex referee Gräfe stated it was a clear penalty. So even the experts can't agree.
These 50:50 decisions can't be avoided but it's becoming dubious, if they all go in favor of one team.
Officials are communicating through their headsets all the freaking time. 4th official has every right to intervene if he saw something, which from the angle he and the assistant had looked like a reasonable call. You can be annoyed, but calling this some great injustice is really only deflecting and it's borderline an insult to hundreds of way more egregious calls that have been seen in this competition throughout the years.
No matter the topic or question at hand, and especially if we're talking handballs, Manuel Gräfe should never ever be listened to
The spin of the ball can be seen from any angle where the ball is visible, you don't need a top view to judge it. This is what we use all the time to judge if a GK got fingertips on a shot.
If you combine both angles there is no scenario where the ball could "slide down his arm": he's running onto the ball, it bounces off him, you can see it on the face shot. The ball can't both bounce and slid at the same time in that particuliar action. If it did the ball would not go this far in front of him unless he "poked" it.
You can prove he's wrong with basic physics and combining what you learn/see from each angle. It's a deduction with 2/3 angles. You can argue the semantics of the conclusiveness of deduction logic but one scenario is largely more probable than the other.
I'm not discussing the assistant right or reason to make the call from his position, only that since you say it can't be proved he's wrong and it can't proved he's right: he clearly guessed.
I'll leave you with that, feel free to still disagree, i've watched that replay 50 times now, my eyes hurt
