VAR and Refereeing 2025/26 | General Discussion

The spin of the ball can be seen from any angle where the ball is visible, you don't need a top view to judge it. This is what we use all the time to judge if a GK got fingertips on a shot.
If you combine both angles there is no scenario where the ball could "slide down his arm": he's running onto the ball, it bounces off him, you can see it on the face shot. The ball can't both bounce and slid at the same time in that particuliar action. If it did the ball would not go this far in front of him unless he "poked" it.
You can prove he's wrong with basic physics and combining what you learn/see from each angle. It's a deduction with 2/3 angles. You can argue the semantics of the conclusiveness of deduction logic but one scenario is largely more probable than the other.

I'm not discussing the assistant right or reason to make the call from his position, only that since you say it can't be proved he's wrong and it can't proved he's right: he clearly guessed.
I'll leave you with that, feel free to still disagree, i've watched that replay 50 times now, my eyes hurt :wenger:

He's there to make a decision in a millisecond. From his angle, and those first few replays they showed, it looks like he handballs it. Players think so too. Bam, he waves (a fictional flag) and tells the ref there's handball . The ref will absolutely take this cause the alternative is way more dangerous and crippling; he could send a player off when there's no proof that the Bayern player didn't actually handball it. VAR is of no use here of course. I'll still disagree about combining angles to be proof, fair enough. But do go watch some gifs of rainbows or something now, this shit ain't worth it. :D
 
These are 50:50 decisions. One game it's a penalty the next it isn't. The ex referee Gräfe stated it was a clear penalty. So even the experts can't agree.
These 50:50 decisions can't be avoided but it's becoming dubious, if they all go in favor of one team.
I'm not sure what use taking the opinion of an ex-referee, or indeed any lay person on this planet, is if they have clearly disregarded (or are unaware of) the actual IFAB laws and guidance, as you are also choosing to, despite having it pointed out repeatedly why the decision not to award a penalty was entirely correct.

If we want to have a moan about refereeing decisions or consistency, let's at least have some basis to do so? Outside of the argument whether we think things like these should or shouldn't be penalties, and should or shouldn't be overturned... UEFA came out after the extremely minimal contact made by Tillman on Madueke during Leverkusen-Arsenal in the RO16 and said there was no reason for the VAR to get involved despite it being evidently soft. You'd think mere weeks later, Hancko on Eze during the Atleti-Arsenal semi should then have the same outcome using the same logic, and an intervention there was completely unnecessary? That seems a far more justifiable use of some hot air, in my opinion.
 
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Watch the bottom replay closely. It looks like the ball hits his chest, then rolls off his arm, helping him to control it. That’s why Mendes appeals (which is a factor in his arm ending in an “unnatural position”). And it’s, presumably, what the assistant referee saw. The decision is far from baffling. Likewise every other incident in the game that has assorted online fans frothing at the mouth.
Aye, I don't think the absolutism here is fair to the referee. Two debateable incidents in the middle of the park, the second with a potential case for a yellow card, is hardly evidence of a conspiracy. There are as many reasons not to give a yellow as there are to give one.
So the law is weird. The law does make reference to non-deliberate handball (i.e. arms too far away from body handball).

IFAB Law 12


"There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour including if a player:
...
handles the ball to interfere with or stop a promising attack, except where the referee awards a penalty kick for a non-deliberate handball offence"



So the rules seem to say refs can give penalties for stopping a promising attack with your arm, without giving a yellow card, as long as it wasn't deliberate. Are we meant to believe this Mendes handball if done in the penalty area is not a yellow, but outside the box it is a yellow? I'm under the impression this principle is applied everywhere on the pitch.


Ultimately, the rules should better reflect common sense and fairness. A yellow card for having the ball blasted at your arm in the middle of the pitch and you get sent off is just absurd. If the rules do allow that to happen then it needs changing.
Yes, the rules don't help clarify the situation. Old soapbox for me but they have been retro-engineered around VAR and improving consistency, while forgetting about what the purpose of the handball was previously. So we have a mish-mash that contradicts itself and create grey areas. In the past, a handball outside the box needed to be clearly deliberate to be a yellow card. Accidental handballs would often still be given as free-kicks, but without a yellow card. I'd have thought given the proximity that a free-kick alone was sufficient in Mendes' case. And that it gets totted up with any other free-kicks Mendes had conceded since his first yellow card.
 
Seems like I’m in the minority here but I thought the ref was genuinely very good! And I wanted Bayern to win, there’s no bias.
 
No matter the topic or question at hand, and especially if we're talking handballs, Manuel Gräfe should never ever be listened to

GES_GI_KAR010615_027
Thanks for this. Now I gotta zoom in on the pic, then google Hamburg Karlsruhe Manuel Gräfe to know what the feck he’s given there.
 
I'm not sure what use taking the opinion of an ex-referee, or indeed any lay person on this planet, is if they have clearly disregarded (or are unaware of) the actual IFAB laws and guidance, as you are also choosing to, despite having it pointed out repeatedly why the decision not to award a penalty was entirely correct.
In the video Manuel Gräfe, who was for years Germany's top referee, says it's only subrule. The main rule clearly states that handball is punishable even if the ball comes from a teammate.
Also there seem to be different rules between UEFA and FIFA. It's a mess.

Anyway the real scandal was the decision to give a foul against Laimer to avoid giving a red to Mendes. The referee only blew the whistle when Mendes handballed the ball. It took the intervention of the 4th official to change the referees mind. There is no video footage that indicates the ball touched Laimer's arm. This ref giving the 4th official a thumbs up says it all.

There were 4 questionable decisions (Kane alleged offside, the red card, the handball of Neves and the foul on Diaz). All given in PSG favor.
PSG deserved to go through, they played excellent but we all know that any of these decisions can easily change the momentum and game. Happened twice in Paris after Kravas first goal and again after Upamecan's goal.

It's 4th time not that Bayern get eliminated because of referee mistakes and even scandalous decisions.
3 times against Real (2017 red card for Vidal, no card for Casemiro, 2 offside goal Ronaldo, 2018 clear handball of Marcello, 2024 the deLigt goal which was similar to Kane's offside call).
 
Okay, so Forest conceded a penalty against Chelsea for a clash of heads. Now the exact same thing happens against Villa (in a semi-final!) and... nothing?
 
It’s such a piss take that the referee does nothing about Jones fouling Sesko ahead of our 2-0 goal, which should’ve been disallowed for handball judging by the latest videoes (albeit i’m not sure if the videos are conclusive enough for VAR to call it clear and obvious)

Jones comes from behind, tugs Sesko back on his right arm as he’s about to position himself for a shot and as a result he’s out of balance and can’t get off a proper shot. It’s a clear penalty and a clear red card to Jones. Nah, just waves it on
 
It’s such a piss take that the referee does nothing about Jones fouling Sesko ahead of our 2-0 goal, which should’ve been disallowed for handball judging by the latest videoes (albeit i’m not sure if the videos are conclusive enough for VAR to call it clear and obvious)

Jones comes from behind, tugs Sesko back on his right arm as he’s about to position himself for a shot and as a result he’s out of balance and can’t get off a proper shot. It’s a clear penalty and a clear red card to Jones. Nah, just waves it on

The worst thing is we see that we are punished by refs after seemingly receiving a preferential decision and with this whole narrative being about Sesko’s “handball” we are facing more of this punishment as the red card is being completely ignored.
 
:lol: Bless the yanks and their terrible football takes. He was booked for handball. After flinging himself to the ground and grabbing the ball. Defenders have a right to stand their ground. They can’t vanish when an opposing player runs straight into them.

What are we even talking about here?

Let's go through the decisions one by one.

Díaz booking for protest. There was obvious contact that the referee completely ignored. Instead of reviewing the challenge, he silenced the complaint with a yellow card. Players are being punished for asking referees to do their job. That's the problem.

Neves handball — no card. Nuno Mendes was already on a yellow. He deliberately handles the ball to stop Bayern's attack. Under the laws of the game, stopping a promising attack with a deliberate handball is a yellow card offense. So where's the second yellow? If the ref genuinely thought it was a Laimer handball (it wasn't), why did he play advantage Bayern?

Kane "offside." The assistant raises the flag early, the referee blows immediately — before the attack even finishes. Modern officiating protocol is clear: if it's tight, let play continue and check with VAR afterward. Everyone saw the replay. Kane was onside. Bayern were through on goal and the referee killed the attack because he guessed. At a Champions League semifinal. You cannot do that.

Davies handball — penalty given. The ball deflects off his thigh first, then hits the arm from close range with no time to react. IFAB guidance explicitly says deflections at close range with no reaction time are not to be treated the same as deliberate handballs. And yet VAR intervenes — for PSG. That single decision shifted the momentum of the tie.

Four separate incidents. All going the same direction. You can call each one marginal in isolation, but the pattern across 180 minutes is not marginal at all.

LINKS


 
What are we even talking about here?

Let's go through the decisions one by one.

Díaz booking for protest. There was obvious contact that the referee completely ignored. Instead of reviewing the challenge, he silenced the complaint with a yellow card. Players are being punished for asking referees to do their job. That's the problem.

Neves handball — no card. Nuno Mendes was already on a yellow. He deliberately handles the ball to stop Bayern's attack. Under the laws of the game, stopping a promising attack with a deliberate handball is a yellow card offense. So where's the second yellow? If the ref genuinely thought it was a Laimer handball (it wasn't), why did he play advantage Bayern?

Kane "offside." The assistant raises the flag early, the referee blows immediately — before the attack even finishes. Modern officiating protocol is clear: if it's tight, let play continue and check with VAR afterward. Everyone saw the replay. Kane was onside. Bayern were through on goal and the referee killed the attack because he guessed. At a Champions League semifinal. You cannot do that.

Davies handball — penalty given. The ball deflects off his thigh first, then hits the arm from close range with no time to react. IFAB guidance explicitly says deflections at close range with no reaction time are not to be treated the same as deliberate handballs. And yet VAR intervenes — for PSG. That single decision shifted the momentum of the tie.

Four separate incidents. All going the same direction. You can call each one marginal in isolation, but the pattern across 180 minutes is not marginal at all.

LINKS



This is honestly an absolutely terrible take.

Even if the factual decisions were all like you point out, you still promote players handling the ball if they feel fouled and then allow them to moan to their hearts content. Whether that was a foul or not, Diaz got booked for grabbing the ball and having a moan - both are stonewall correct decisions.

You also claim Mendes handled the ball intentionally. Which is dubious at best. There was also no significant advantage played.

You also argue no reaction time and close range should absolve Davies, but somehow this argument doesn't count for Mendes
 
I thought PSG were just comfortably better over the two legs. The score line flattered Bayern. The handball could have been a red but I don't think its up there as a massive controversy. It'd have been a pretty harsh way to get sent off


When looked in isolation then probably but combine it with the Davies penalty in the first leg, the Neves handball and the general refereeing performance over the two legs (Kane offside, Diaz foul) it's very understandable for Bayern fans to be frustrated.

Over the two legs it was very close, Bayern had more xG in both matches iirc. In the end, I think the difference was Olisie and Musiala not being incisive enough with the chances they had. If they had their shooting boots on, Bayern would've won.

I agree with noodle that PSG just about edged it overall, but the refereeing killed the spectacle and any realistic chance of a Bayern comeback.

The psychological dimension matters here. Bayern were actually finding their way back into the first half after conceding early, and then the handball controversies hit in quick succession and completely deflated them. Nothing happened for the next twenty minutes. Bayern lost the thread because they feel the game is being taken from them.

And this wasn't unforeseeable. João Pinheiro's reputation preceded him. These comments are from Portuguese fans on May 4th, before the match:



His own footballing public was warning UEFA not to appoint him for this exact fixture. UEFA did it anyway. What followed was entirely predictable to anyone paying attention.

- I feel sorry for one of the clubs, I don't know which one, but for sure one of them is going to be really harmed!

- When in doubt, it's a penalty for the blue team

- The one who gets hurt is always the red one

- They thought the first game had been too good, and they wanted to lower the bar. Well played.

- Being the errand boy that João Pinheiro is, he’s going to help PSG advance.

- Put Tiago Martins in the VAR and the team playing in red is screwed
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- and so, my friends, the greatest semi-final ever is ruined

- It'll just make everyone hate Portugal, feck it.

- An excellent game ruined before it even starts.

- Why are they going to appoint an incompetent like this for such an important game?
‍♂️


- PSG has 4 Portuguese players. The sporting director is Portuguese. João Pinheiro was heavily criticized in the recent refereeing he did in Europe. Pedro Proença really has a lot of influence with the European committees. I hope he uses that for the good of Portuguese football.

- They really want PSG to advance.

- So they're going to appoint a Portuguese referee to officiate the most Portuguese club in the Champions League?

- If Bayern wants to win, it's best they don't play in red.

- How do you put an incompetent referee in charge of a game like this? Especially with several Portuguese players on PSG

- Damn, they managed to ruin the best game of the season

- He who should prepare himself because we all know that he will make mistakes.

- Look at what a beautiful shitty idea

- There goes the 5-4. How do you assign the worst referee to the best game
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- 5-4 in the first leg, everything was set for an exciting second leg of football, but they had to ruin it all by appointing this turnip as referee.

- Incredible! The Portuguese were criticized in the last 2 games they refereed and yet they continue

- The Robin Hood of Portuguese football. "Steals" from the big one (Sporting Clube de Portugal) to give to the little ones (Rabolhos and Amoníaco de Contumil)

- Good luck to Bayern, it won't be easy with this gentleman

- You're going to ruin what was being predicted as a hymn to football. Put him in the Arsenal-Atleti lineup, where he belongs at home.

- A Portuguese referee officiating a French club that has tons of Portuguese players and not just them smells like a conflict of interest.

- Ridiculous… all that's missing is for the guy to be the incompetent Tiago Martins

- Right away, UEFA decided to ruin a match that had everything to be spectacular.

- No VAR? That bastard Tiago Martins. Always lining his pockets.

- Incredible, how in Portugal, the referees who keep increasing their "selective incompetence" end up getting rewarded.

- They liked the heist in Nottingham and want more

- Damn, it's gonna ruin a phenomenal game

- Bet on PSG because João Pinheiro likes blue

- UEFA @UEFAcom is putting an end to the beautiful game.

- This referee who spent 12 minutes analyzing a play that isn't a foul and then calls a foul should never put the whistle in his mouth again.
 
Are people surprised that these oil state clubs get a bunch of shady calls?

Wait, you don't think that Nasser Al-Khelaifi of PSG, Nasser Al-Khelaifi of the ECA, Nasser Al-Khelaifi of UEFA, and Nasser Al-Khelaifi of the company that literally writes UEFA's paychecks can all put their heads together to ensure completely impartial refereeing?

UEFA investigated and UEFA is pleased to report no issues.
 
Wait, you don't think that Nasser Al-Khelaifi of PSG, Nasser Al-Khelaifi of the ECA, Nasser Al-Khelaifi of UEFA, and Nasser Al-Khelaifi of the company that literally writes UEFA's paychecks can all put their heads together to ensure completely impartial refereeing?

UEFA investigated and UEFA is pleased to report no issues.

Highly unlikely you'd get 4 or 5 of the most powerful UEFA executives in the same room together to agree.
 
I'd say Bayern were hard done by over the two legs.
It wasn't Henning Ovrebo Chelsea vs Barcelona bad but I'd say basically all of the questionable decisions went against them and there was quite a lot of them. Couple of pretty generous interpretations in the second leg for PSG too. PSG looked the better team over the 2 legs to me so not the end of the world for a neutral like me.
The modern standard of refereeing is low enough that i'd say it was a pretty good performance overall sadly. Not ruining and completely fecking up a match is basically the best you can hope for at the moment.
 
This is honestly an absolutely terrible take.

Even if the factual decisions were all like you point out, you still promote players handling the ball if they feel fouled and then allow them to moan to their hearts content. Whether that was a foul or not, Diaz got booked for grabbing the ball and having a moan - both are stonewall correct decisions.

You also claim Mendes handled the ball intentionally. Which is dubious at best. There was also no significant advantage played.

You also argue no reaction time and close range should absolve Davies, but somehow this argument doesn't count for Mendes

I don’t understand why Diaz got a yellow card for handling the ball. Isn’t that allowed if the ball comes from your teammate?

;)
 
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Wait, you don't think that Nasser Al-Khelaifi of PSG, Nasser Al-Khelaifi of the ECA, Nasser Al-Khelaifi of UEFA, and Nasser Al-Khelaifi of the company that literally writes UEFA's paychecks can all put their heads together to ensure completely impartial refereeing?

UEFA investigated and UEFA is pleased to report no issues.
At least in England the FA will investigate City and drop the hammer on them right... Oh wait
 
This is honestly an absolutely terrible take.

Even if the factual decisions were all like you point out, you still promote players handling the ball if they feel fouled and then allow them to moan to their hearts content. Whether that was a foul or not, Diaz got booked for grabbing the ball and having a moan - both are stonewall correct decisions.

You also claim Mendes handled the ball intentionally. Which is dubious at best. There was also no significant advantage played.

You also argue no reaction time and close range should absolve Davies, but somehow this argument doesn't count for Mendes

I'll let a former FIFA referee explain it to you. Auf Deutsch oder mit Übersetzer — nur zu, bedien dich:

 
I'll let a former FIFA referee explain it to you. Auf Deutsch oder mit Übersetzer — nur zu, bedien dich:



Translated he's making very good points. I think the core issue with Bayern PSG over both legs is that UEFA are in thrall to money from Qatar.
 
How the feck wasn't that a yellow on Hume for the pull back on Shaw? Blatant cynical foul to stop a promising attack not two feet from the ref.
 
Would really liked to have seen a replay on Maguire going down at the back post a couple mins from the end there.

The lack of replays frustrates me.
 
How the feck wasn't that a yellow on Hume for the pull back on Shaw? Blatant cynical foul to stop a promising attack not two feet from the ref.


3 times in that first half Sunderland players have pulled the shirt of a player getting away from them. Those are nearly always a yellow yet Atwell has let them off every time.
 
How the feck wasn't that a yellow on Hume for the pull back on Shaw? Blatant cynical foul to stop a promising attack not two feet from the ref.
Pulling is basically allowed now. Shaw probably should have been punished with a penalty for grappling earlier on.
 
Even if the linesman thought the ball had crossed the line, why not allow 5sec more of play and then do goalcheck if it goes in like they do for offsides?
 
I am not one of those who is "the ref's are against us" because all fans of all teams say the same. But the standard across the board is awful, so all teams have genuine grievance. VAR allows us to see just how shit they are in the moment. For me it is not just the major decisions, but also the minor ones in a game.
 
The whole ref and VAR system in the PL is broken. It's even worse than the farcical changes they've made to F1